BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: dianavan
Date: 04 May 04 - 04:47 PM

DougR - There is a big difference between mob violence and systemic violence by American military troops. The American troops should be there to prevent such atrocities - on both sides. Basically, if they can't do the job, they should get out.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 04 May 04 - 04:43 PM

Well DougR - you didn't ask me personally - but my opinion is that folks are so bound up in protecting the "innocent" terrorists that they must deny they did anything so horrendous. It was actually the Americans, who we all know are bad, making it look like they did it.

People actually think that being Muslim is being deprived. So we need to give them more social programs. And that may be true. But until Hamas and the other radical organisations stop being murderers - nothing is going to change. People fight back when they are hit often enough.

How am I doing DougR?

Steve

Oh yeah - and then did you hear about the Catholic priest who walked into the Muslim temple and blew himself and 40 followers of Allah to death?

No - Because it would never happen -

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: DougR
Date: 04 May 04 - 04:36 PM

I believe U. S. authorities are taking steps to punish those who committed the atrocities against the Iraqi prisoners, and also taking steps to ensure that such behaviour is not going on in other prisons. Further, I believe steps will be taken to see that it doesn't happen again. The damage to U. S. credibility these few bad apples caused is immense, not to mention the abuse the prisoners endured.

However, I don't recall similar outpourings of rage from Mudcatters when it was reported that four U. S. civilian contractors were killed and their bodies hung from bridges, or dragged through the streets of Fallujuh, when that occured.

Why not?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: CarolC
Date: 04 May 04 - 02:17 PM

Steve, I dont think it's irrisponsible to call attention to a need to examine how the military environment and the leadership, both military as well as, in the case of our current situation, the civilian leadership, contributes to situations like what happened at Fort Bragg, as well as in the Iraq prison in question. And in any situation where our military people behave in a way that is harmful to others and to the military. In fact, I think it's irrisponsible not to. I never said, or even implied, that the war, in and of itself, was the problem. My point was that we need to look at the culture that is being fostered by those in positions of responsibility. That's all.

I know you have vastly more experience dealing with large numbers of different cases of Veterans who experience problems than me. But I think I probably have much more experience than you of being married to a combat Veteran. My guess is that each experience gives its own unique perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 May 04 - 12:55 PM

There's abuse that happens because people ignore orders. And there's abuse that happens because people obey orders. And there's a tendency of closed organisations to try to cover up abuse.

None of those three things should happen - but it's the last two that are most worrying.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 04 May 04 - 12:45 PM

CarolC - Since I work in Family Advocacy I would say that I am in a better position than yourself to know what occurred at that base. We were briefed on those families right after they occurred. All four families had been at very high risk long before they went to the war zone.

It is incredibly unusual to have that many deaths at one time. My apologies if I inferred that the war had absolutely nothing to do with them as everything those families were involved in played a part. But to lay the deaths at the door of the war is irresponsible. Nothing is caused by just one thing. And having seen the cases I can say that the war was a very minor piece. In reality the deployment probably kept the folks alive for that period of time.

Deaths occur in the real world from domestic violence. And troops come from the general population. So those figures should be comparable. That they aren't, domestic violence in the military is actually lower, is a tribute to the organizations set up to intervene and assist im making folks deal with situations differently.

I'm at a loss as to why you think I am angry with you. Never said it nor inferred it. Simply stated that in my opinion it was irresponsible to make a blanket statement about four different situations that resulted in deaths. I feel no need to "take it out on some of" you as there is nothing to take out. My opinion - nothing more and nothing less.

So if you feel offended my apologies -

Bobert - I was in a war zone. The rules are this - if they are out there they are fair game for a bullet of a bomb. Once I touch them they are POWs and are to be transported to the rear for processing as a POW. It does not make any difference if they are signatories to the Geneva Convention or not. We ARE signatories to it.

If I was told to violate those rules I don't think I would. But then again I've never been in a prison as a guard or prisoner so have no first hand knowledge of what goes on. I'd like to think I wouldn't do those things if ordered. But like you said my Brother - things get twisted around when folk's lives are on the line. I too hope the higher ups - right up to the general in charge - get their butts in a wringer. It's just wrong. And no rules are necessary to know that it is wrong.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: CarolC
Date: 04 May 04 - 12:48 AM

The four deaths in the Army after the Afghan deployment had literally nothing to do with the deployment. Those four couples had been having serious problems long before the troops were sent there. To attribute the deaths to the war is simply irresponsible.

Steve, I've been pretty close to a couple of people who have experienced war. I have an idea about what that can do to people. You're not talking to someone who is entirely without a clue. I'm sorry you are feeling pissed off, but once again, you seem to feel a need to take it out on some of us who actually wish you well. I think that is a mistake.

What happened at that base was freakish. I choose to believe the family member who is quoted as saying that her relative came back from that war a changed man. That's giving him the benefit of the doubt as a human being. I prefer to do that.

Re: my previous post, I probably should have said that racism is still very much a problem in the area where Fort Ashby is located, as it is in a lot of other parts of the US. I suspect that this will not change any time soon.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: dianavan
Date: 04 May 04 - 12:11 AM

McGrath - One thing that comes out in the news coverage - as a result of the immunity for contractors deal slipped through, it appears that, no matter what the civilian contractors involved in this unit may have done, in the way of promoting or executing war crimes such as are alleged in this case, nothing can be done to them legally, either by the Iraqi authorities (once these exist) or the US government. And I think they've also got immunity from any kind of civil cases against them. And they are also covered against any International War Cri8mes tribunal.

Everyone keeps skipping this very important point. If you are a civilian contractor with immunity, your job is to get the information any way you can. I want to know who trains these people?

Makes you wonder if this is how they got their information about weapons of mass destruction.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: CarolC
Date: 03 May 04 - 11:53 PM

the girl in the photo pointing to the hooded Iraqi prisoner is Lynndie England from Fort Ashby Virginia.
While Lynndie`s actions have been roundly condemned by the civilised world, back in her hometown she was being toasted as a heroine.

I think that would be Fort Ashby, West Virginia. West Virginia is a separate state from Virginia. I used to live a couple of miles outside of Fort Ashby, West Virginia, for about two years. What is being reported about how they are responding to this situation doesn't surprise me at all. It's a very small town in a pretty isolated area, and the people are mostly inclined to get their information from the more right wing media sources. They aren't bad people, for the most part. They probably just believe the propaganda they've been fed all of their lives about the relationship the US has to the rest of the world. They live in a pretty small world, for the most part.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Bobert
Date: 03 May 04 - 08:58 PM

Yo, Steve,

As you know, folks will do some purdy danged anit-social things in war zones. I reckon if them kids was told to do it because it would break down the Iraqis and make them talk then they prolly thought they was doing the right thing... You know, shooting folks and dropping bombs on civilians ain't all that right but after being part of those things, these kids prolly just said, "What the hey, it's war."

I'm concerned about those with the brass who came up with these methods of interigation and where those folks might have come up with these tactics. Those are the folks who have to most questions to answer and I hope they are held accountablerather than the kids who I'm sure werr just following orders...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Peace
Date: 03 May 04 - 08:52 PM

True, McG of H, but it isn't the restricted domain of liberal democracies or any other specific political system. It seems to be a by-product of war. War's an ugly thing, and regardless of its justification, it will always be ugly.

I spoke with a Canadian pilot who flew in WWII. When he returned from raids with ammunition left, he used cows as target practice. Didn't matter whose cows they were. Long as it wasn't in England. Make sense outta that. I can't.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST,cookieless Norton1
Date: 03 May 04 - 08:46 PM

And I want to be crystal clear that I believe the scumbags who have committed these acts are just that. Scumbags. Even with orders from above the majority of folks would not stoop to this behavior.

These clowns are an abomination to mankind and a slap in the face to every American whether in the military or not.

My personal opinion is that they ought to be paraded between about 240 million Americans and be spit on by each and every one of them.

That President Bush has not come out and stated that everyone connected to this inhumane situation will go to jail is just an infered statement of support for it. Maybe not that bad - but he certainly is doing his sit back and do nothing crapola when it is needed for him to SAY and DO something up front. After all - it is his face that sent us there.

Crapola I'm PO'd about this - Makes all of us who served in the military look bad.

Rant off

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 May 04 - 08:44 PM

Well, brucie, of course I could have mentioned lots of other unpleasant people who have gone in for torture. My point was to pick out a couple of other liberal democracies who have gone down that road - it's not just an American thing. It's an easy road to go down, and there is always a tendency to try to present it as just being a rogue element out of control that does the dirty stuff.

And of course there are instances of unlicensed brutality in any war - but that is something different. (Though cover-ups and collusion are likely to come into play here.)

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Bobert
Date: 03 May 04 - 08:28 PM

Well, gol danged... Iz sniffin' the same ol' stinky PR folks who are gonna try to spin this in any fashion to protect folks at the top. Right now, the focus is on a handful of kids, mostly from Virginia, who for reasons unknown decided to do some purdy meanspirited and foul acts on some Iraqi's... But hey, I was raised in Virgina and Iz here to tell ya that them folks ain't like that. They had to have gotten at least some gentle guidence to come up with that stuff. And maybe not so gentle guidence. You know, like orders!!!

And some of this stuff is not only counter productive toward anything that Bush thinks can be done in Iraq, what ever that might be, but may very well violate international law.

No wonder the US didn't sign on on the World Court???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Peace
Date: 03 May 04 - 08:27 PM

The Viet Cong/NVA in dealing with Americans; the IRA dealing with SAS; Algerians dealing with the French.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 May 04 - 08:14 PM

If it's just a bunch of screwed up people off their own bat, that's one thing.

But the suspicion is there that it's not just that, but that torture and abuse as a method of interrogation has been accepted as an approved and condoned procedure by Military Intelligence in the US Army, as in so many other armies - for example the British Army in dealing with the IRA, or the French in Algeria. And as it was previously in Vietnam.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 03 May 04 - 06:06 PM

No dianavan - not even implying it.

mg - LORs, Letters of Reprimand, are what commanders give as soon as something untoward occurs. Judge advocate is now processing the legal actions that can be taken. Once JA is finished with their recomendations the commander will choose which option to follow up on. And that can be anything from an Article-15 to a full fledged General Court's Martial.

The troops determined to be involved could end up spending a lifetime in a Federal facility. As well as a Dishonorable Discharge. Essentially terminating their rights as a United States Citizen and leaving them to fend for themselves with no benefits of any sort for the remainder of their life.

No need to suit up - it's being dealt with.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: mg
Date: 03 May 04 - 05:58 PM

I have not been able to follow this story, but of course I am appalled. Surely, even if there were a few sadistic people let loose, they had to have supervisors and inspections of conditions etc. The looks of glee are just plain sick. And why are women involved with male prisoners, especially naked ones???? As bad as if men are put in charge of female prisoners. Something is very strange here, unless there is some trick photography or something...

Is the Red Cross/Red Crescent visiting these jails? Why are they in Bagdad and not in more isolated/defendible places.....And why are there just letters of reprimand and not preparations for courts martial? Do I have to suit up and go straighten this out myself?

mg

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 May 04 - 05:13 PM

dianavan is absolutely not the GUEST to which I refer. While I may disagree with some of Dianavan's positions (sometimes mightily, eh Dianavan? .... LOL ;-) ) I respect that they are usually well thought out and sincere. She is a prime example for me of respecting her opinions whether I agree or not. DV never does this stuff to manipulate or put down those that disagree. She has honest views and expresses them well. As opposed to this particular GUEST, who simply tries to create false realities to manipulate the dialogue.

Back to the thread topic. I am deeply dismayed at the newest revelations. But it does appear that the American public is demanding that there be no scapegoats, that all responsible be punished. On this I concur.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: dianavan
Date: 03 May 04 - 04:51 PM

Steve - You are making me feel suspect. I am a teacher but I am not a guest. Big Mic also referred to her (guest) as a northern neighbor. Since I am female, a teacher and live in Canada, I am hoping that you do not think it is me posting as a cowardly guest. Although I am not always right, I am not afraid of disagreeing with anyone.

I wish guest would post with a mudcat name. At least then I wouldn't be so confused. There are many guests on mudcat and it is often difficult to distinguish their opinions. I think guests are victims of the "culture of fear and paranoia" created by Bush.

Get over it guest - show a little courage. Stand behind your words.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 03 May 04 - 03:50 PM

Wow - very impressive. All of you that appear to not know a lot about what you speak.

The majority of those who served in Vietnam were volunteers. Around 80%.

Post-traumatic Stress Disorder - Only requires a stressor that the recipient believes could have cost them their life. That would be either taking life or seeing life taken. It does not in any way pre-dispose individuals to carnage and death in a post war environment. Harpgirl - you are so full of it. Mick, artbrooks, myself, and millions of others have survived just fine with it. You really ought to get a grip.

The four deaths in the Army after the Afghan deployment had literally nothing to do with the deployment. Those four couples had been having serious problems long before the troops were sent there. To attribute the deaths to the war is simply irresponsible.

I know veterans who received decorations for saving the lives of civilians. It does not make it right that civilians get hurt or killed, but when the "enemy" gets amongst the civilians and fires on the troops one only has a couple of choices.

Glad you all are so freaking perfect that you can set up there and spit down on the troops. What does the Bible say? "He who is without sin cast the first stone?"

As a teacher, if that is indeed what you are GUEST, you ought to be hanging your head in shame. Jumping to conclusions and making statements without first knowing the facts. I'm glad no one has EVER doctored pictures and posted them for all to see. I'm glad the media has NEVER EVER made statements that were false and misleading. There is no cover up - there is an investigation and the folks responsible will be dealt with. As a teacher you have a broader responsibility to your students to give them real information and not emotional diatribes from a TV show.

I do not support torture of prisoners. There are a lot better ways to get accurate information. But it happens. Not a lot. And the small minority that do it will be taken care of. Always have and always will. So much for GUEST's "cover up" shpiel.

I still believe that we should be in Iraq. We've a task to accomplish and the men and women I communicate with that are there believe they are doing good for the population. My personal belief is that the country will resurrect and come back to haunt us with gouging oil prices for our actions to give them a real government with stability.

Just my not so humble .01 worth.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 03 May 04 - 02:30 PM

Do you need another of your so called "warrior culture" to tell you that this war is wrong as he did a few posts back? Well here it is:
This war is wrong! I and many of my personnel are against it. The administration needs some adult supervision.

Guest, you are a teacher? How can you even worry about the warrior culture killing and torturing Iraqi's when our own children in the states seem hell bent on killing each other. They sure as hell aren't in uniform.

I know you don't want to listen but from someone who knows, we do not, in the military, allow brutalization of enemies or our own troops. There was a time in the military that discipline was handed down with a cat o' nine, or taking someone to the Bosun's Hole for a beat down. There are some in society who feel that is the way to handle all problems (check out religious groups who say that they can beat their wives because the bible tells them so). We have gangs in this country that do this sort of thing all the time. Are you doing anything about them? Is the abused child in your classroom a military brat? Or is he or she the child of a civilian.

Your broad brush tactics against the military are just so much ranting and raving. The people who did this will be held accountable.

I tell you again, the war is wrong. The abuse is wrong. The personnel responsible will be held accountable.
But this behavior is indicative of our whole society not just the military which you hold a frothing hatred for.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 May 04 - 01:55 PM

"Hypocrisy is a tribute that vice pays to virtue". (Rochefoucauld, though it often gets credited to others, notably Oscar Wilde).

Maybe there's less hypocrisy about these things these days - but the downside of that is, it makes it easier for the tolerated exceptions to become the openly acknowledged norm. Remember the open justifications of torture we have been presented with in recent years by respectable academics and politicians?

Dirty tricks cease to be embarrassing things we don't talk about, they become something to boast about. Not just in relation to war, in just about every walk of life - business, sport, personal relationships. "Winning isn't the most important thing, it's the only thing."

I sometimes think maybe we could use a little more hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 03 May 04 - 10:26 AM

"I would definitely agree that there are some major differences between, "the average 18 year old who went to Vietnam, differs quite remarkably from the average 18 year old, who enlists, these days." I therefore found it surprising that you then completely failed to actually detail what those differences were."

Well I gave one... "The average 18 year old now, however, has grown up with a healthy suspicion of all things Middle-Eastern"
And I qualified that by stating "There are kids nowadays...", not 'kids nowadays'. The fact remains that the average 'American' 18 year-old has grown up through the 1990's in Saddam Hussein's shadow. Granted there are some kids that this will not matter to; pacifists do not have a habit of joining the army. It is the mindset of the ones who do join armies that I'm focusing my attention on. And (by and large), there are not too many that I have seen interviewed from the front-line that have any problem with US foreign policy, nor the way it is being carried out. All I keep seeing are willing participants.

If this state of affairs provides healthy recruiting grounds for 'Al Qaedists' (as the phrase has been coined), it also offers the same pastures to our side.

It is not the Cold War, anymore. We know it as a different type of enemy. The whole definition of war changed on 9/11, and I think most people accept that. The nuclear deterrent kept paranoia at a healthy level in the Communist era. Nobody really thought there would be a pre-emptive strike from the USSR (occasional 'scares' notwithstanding). All hell would have broken loose, otherwise. Today the threat is not as clear, but we have no doubt that the enemy will use whatever it is they have to hand to carry through that threat, and that brings on a different sense of paranoia than was there during the Vietnam era.

I do not take all your points about generalising, though. I have enough "There are those...", ...."There are more of these kind of people....", and the like, scattered through my post to indicate that I was focusing my attention on a few. But again, it is very hard to produce evidence of the preponderance of such mindsets; one can take a look at human nature, these days, and juxtapose it into an situation where discipline is no longer a second nature... where it wasn't even a first, before their spirit got dented in boot camp, and in that I fully understand, why you would think that to be an uncharacteristic post, Teribus,

There is a general drift, however, to tolerance of greater and greater limits of 'atrocity'; that is really my point. This story is only unfolding, so most of my contentions up there, are just me observing certain trends in society, comparing it to my own professional experience, which actively ceased over 20 years ago, and commenting on what I see as a number of troubling precedents, both from the battlefield..., and from the Office.

I will, of course, reserve my judgement until I hear more of the facts of these cases, but there is fire. We don't know how much of it there is, though. The smoke may eventually indicate the extent of it.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 May 04 - 10:22 AM

That would be Mr. Calley, who was stripped of his rank and sentenced to a dishonorable discharge and 25 years to life imprisonment by a military court. Civilian review later reduced his sentence to time already served (about 18 months of house arrest in a Ft. Benning BOQ room) but the rest of the sentence stands.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 May 04 - 10:06 AM

There are always sickoes back home who seem to get a kick out of identifying war criminals as heroes - remember the Ballad of Lt Calley?

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 May 04 - 09:59 AM

You just confirmed my point about "community responsibility", ard mhacha. The communities of Ford Ashby, Virginia and La Vale clearly applaud Lynddie's actions and are likely moral accomplices, because it looks like they helped forge Lynddie's mindset. Now, tell me someone, why should not those communities be shown publicly for the yahoos they are? Perhaps in a documentary a-la "Bowling for Columbine"?

This may sound like "collective punishment", but then let any Ford Ashby citizens who disagree with Lynddie's actions distance themselves. Or move. Otherwise tacit agreement is implied.

Unless we look at the roots of the cause, we only allow more Lynddies to be created.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 May 04 - 09:30 AM

Ireland on Sunday had an article by two reporters who reveals that the girl in the photo pointing to the hooded Iraqi prisoner is Lynndie England from Fort Ashby Virginia.
While Lynndie`s actions have been roundly condemned by the civilised world, back in her hometown she was being toasted as a heroine.

Bar-owner Coleen Kesner said," A lot of people here think they ought to blow up the whole of Iraq. To the country boys here, if you`re a different nationality, a different race like the Iraqis, you`re sub-human. That`s the way girls like Lynndie are raised, it`s turkey shooting here now, tormenting Iraqis in this girls mind would be no different from shooting a turkey, they grew up hunting, over there the`re hunting Iraqis".
Lynndie`s mother Terrie dismissed the allegations against her daughter as being"unfair", saying, "They were just doing stupid kids things, pranks"

At the Wal-Mart superstore in the nearest large town of La Vale, Lynndie`s photo is displayed on the " Wall of honour", at a nearby Court House, it is posted under a banner delaring "we are hometown proud"

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 May 04 - 08:20 AM

This thread, now that it has turned away from the manipulative intent it was started with, has gotten very interesting. Great couple of posts from Jim Mc and Teribus.

Jim, I don't know that I buy into the contention that they are better informed or that they have a more "healthy suspicion of all things Middle-Eastern; more acute than that hatred of 'The Yellow Man'". Don't forget that the Vietnam era soldier was raised in the 1950's by the WWII generation. They were raised in the Cold War era, and the propaganda about the ChiCom's and Communists in general was very sophisticated and there were fewer sources of alternative news. The news media was much more of a news source and much less of an entertainment organism. Also, the ethic of reporting the news was much healthier. It was a result of the Vietnam era reporting that caused the current control of the media.

But I do find some agreement on the issue of the ethos of today's soldier. But I find that to be a breakdown in societal values. I think these young ones are brave, and driven by many ideals. But because of the general societal breakdown in the day to day values of right and wrong, they often don't see the immorality in the act. When that is thrown into a combat, life and death situation, where it is hard to distinguish under the best of circumstances, and you get a recipe for what we are seeing.

I deplore what I am seeing. But it is not a new or unique situation. The references to My Lai are fair examples. One can find this kind of brutality in every war. The slaughter at the bridge in Korea (name escapes me), the killing fields of Cambodia, and on and on. I will agree with our GUEST on one point. War is the ultimate breakdown of the human condition. It is the worst failure of use of the gifts given to us by the Greatest One. But sometimes it is necessary, and thank God that ordinary folks are willing to step up when the time is right. But they are ordinary folks. They trust their leaders to only expend their lives, and their families lives, only when it is a complete necessity.

That is the failing this time. We have hundreds of dead soldiers, thousands of dead Iraqui's, a country destroyed, and for what? The aim of taking out a despotic leader is fine, but don't the warriors have the right to expect that their leadership has a plan? Is it too much to ask for intelligence that would have anticipated this mess? Shouldn't that same intelligence have told them that this wasn't the time or the way? Why is it OK to send the flower of our youth off to a suspect operation that is costing thousands of lives on both sides, never mind the dollars spent, but it wasn't OK to arm the Iraqui resistance and let these folks handle their own affairs? The answer to the last one is obvious. Because we didn't trust them to install the "right kind of democracy".

I was talking to a neighbor last night. He is a somewhat conservative Christian. His contention was that we couldn't let these folks set up just any government, because it might be a radical government. I forced the issue and got him to admit that it couldn't be Islamic. I then asked him what the difference was between that and what we have in place in the States now. He said it was different here. I don't see it.

My hope is that this scandal focuses the light where it belongs. That is surely on the top levels of the Pentagon, but even more it is on our own society. These things happen when we don't understand certain concepts such as honor. These things happen when warriors are not given a very specific code of conduct. To be effective, one must drill into the warrior what we stand for, and what is acceptable. When that is clear, you see the heroic actions such as Teribus took. That is what distinguishes a warrior from a thug. The ability, in the middle of the worst madness that humankind can wreak, to step back and refuse to cross certain lines. In fact, be willing to die rather than commit the atrocity.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST
Date: 03 May 04 - 08:18 AM

Did anyone see the parents of the male reserve officer who is in most the photographs on TV being interviewed the other night? They were in total denial. And you have to wonder what their motivations were for making media appearances. Money?

McGrath, many of those who served in Vietnam weren't conscripts. The draft lottery, inactive since WWII, wasn't reinstated until 1969. Many men without deferements simply refused to report for duty, and especially if they were from one of the major cities in the US, they knew there wasn't much chance of being found by the federales and being taken in, if they kept moving around. Many who didn't qualify for deferments also filed CO claims, knowing that the appeals process might be dragged out until the war ended.

But all those who served in Vietnam prior to 1970, weren't conscripts.

Jim McCallan, you can criticize me all you want for making sweeping generalizations, but you've just articulated the same argument I have made here about the culture of violence in the military, regardless of it's nationality.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 May 04 - 07:47 AM

Teribus, the reason I advocate public humiliation (not collective punishment, as you state, at least not the same punishment collectively, but according to each one's involvement in the crime), is that a criminal is rarely "created in a vacuum". He/she has been brought up with certain beliefs on the way, his/her behaviour has likely been ignored/excused by those close to them, and so on.

When someone commits a crime in civilian life, they are named, their photos may appear in papers etc, and their families automatically shamed for their involvement (or failure to be involved in some cases) in the life of the criminal up to that point. I am simply saying "do the same in the case of war criminals". Name and shame. No different from civilian life. We did that at the Nuremberg trials, after all, the precedent is there.

Oh, I know, I could stack up a number of excuses why treatment of the military should be different. They would count for little in my book.

And yes, if my son or daughter steals, or injures somebody while drunk-driving, or kills, or commits a war crime, I expect to shoulder some of the blame. Because I will have failed as a parent. No way to hide or avoid that.

I could even make a case for "community responsibility", especially where gung-ho attitudes are encouraged and applauded. The shame there tends to be expressed as "we are not/ should not be proud of...". But it is there all the same.

The opposite of sharing responsibility in appropriate measure would be to create scapegoats.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 May 04 - 07:37 AM

It strikes me these are generalisations based on what we might expect - from both directions. It's possible to work up a case for things being better, or for them being worse.

The big difference between Vietnam and Iraq is that they were conscripts in Vietnam, and they are "volunteers" in Iraq. (Though in some cases "economic conscript" might be closer to the truth; and reservists or territorials who find themselves suddenly in a war zone are a kind of conscript).    But whether that makes them more likely to carry out undisciplined atrocities, or to obey (or give) illegal orders, that something which in principle could work either way.

The aspect of all this that should be the focus of attention is whether there is evidence that there is collusion in any atrocities on the part of those not directly involved - more especially from those higher up in the chain of command, but also from fellow soldiers.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Teribus
Date: 03 May 04 - 06:54 AM

Jim McCallan - 03 May 04 - 05:15 AM

Most uncharacteristic post for you Jim.

I would definitely agree that there are some major differences between, "the average 18 year old who went to Vietnam, differs quite remarkably from the average 18 year old, who enlists, these days." I therefore found it surprising that you then completely failed to actually detail what those differences were.

You follow up decrying the practice of stating generalisations when formulating an arguement, then proceed to do exactly that!

I fully agree with, and welcome, your statement that you do not, "accept the mindset that carries out these kind of atrocities, as being representative of the vast majority of Armed Forces everywhere." This oddly runs counter to some of the later contentions in your post.

I would also agree that, "The average 18 year old now, however, has grown up with a healthy suspicion of all things Middle-Eastern;", and, considering the history in the growth of terrorism and terrorist tactics, with good cause for the most part.

There are no grounds whatsoever for your contention that "kids nowadays" are more likely to accept orders related to the killing of innocent civilians, than kids from past generations.

"There are also (and always have been), those who sign up purely to 'have a go', 'kick some ass'..., whatever..., and it is my belief that there are more of these kind of people seeking entry into the Armed Forces, these days, than previously." Again, no grounds for this statement, at all. There will be some, and they are normally screened out before enlistment, those that do get through are further weeded out during training, mainly because their mind-set does not take too kindly to a disciplined environment.

"Sociopaths and downright criminals have been joining armies since time immemorial. I don't think anyone could dispute that." Wellington described his troops as being the "Scum of the earth" but added, under discipline those beggars, thieves and murderers became the steadiest troops a general could ask for. Another of his quotes regarding "his men", " I don't know what they do to the enemy, but, By God, they terrify me."

Yes, undoubtedly, there is a 'pack mentality', the difference in the "Vietnam" draftee compared to the "Iraq" recruit, is that under pressure the discipline of the former is the more likely to crack, that of the latter-day volunteer is not. It all comes down to discipline, either that imposed by command, or more importantly, self-dscipline. You are more likely to get both in armed forces consisting of "professionals" - the latter-day volunteer. So I do not know where you find the grounds for stating that, "There are more and more bad apples in the barrel, these days; more, arguably, than there was in the Vietnam days, and there are more that could be easier led into committing atrocities, than there would have been, as well."

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 03 May 04 - 05:15 AM

I would say, Big Mick, that the average 18 year old who went to Vietnam, differs quite remarkably from the average 18 year old, who enlists, these days. The average 18 year old, these days is 'much better informed' (and you can interpret 'informed', very freely) and motivated, and has lived with the Iraqi situation since before he knew what one was.

You should know, as well as I do (going by your service experience), that many people join 'the Army' for many reasons.
To generalise about anything (as your GUEST interlocutor has done), is always a bad starting point when formulating an argument, and as I mentioned in a post further up this thread, I can't accept the mindset that carries out these kind of atrocities, as being representative of the vast majority of Armed Forces everywhere.

The average 18 year old now, however, has grown up with a healthy suspicion of all things Middle-Eastern; more acute than that hatred of 'The Yellow Man', and the art of propaganda has developed beyond recognition, since those days.
There are kids nowadays, on both sides of the pond, who, if they wouldn't actually believe that the killing of innocent civilians was right and honourable, they would have no difficulty following orders to do so. The PlayStation generation has been among us for a long while, and whatever people say about the 'NASCAR mentality', you also have to take this mindset on board, as well.
There are also (and always have been), those who sign up purely to 'have a go', 'kick some ass'..., whatever..., and it is my belief that there are more of these kind of people seeking entry into the Armed Forces, these days, than previously. There is a thin line between de-sensitisation, and de-humanisation, and most of these kids have been exposed to it since birth. And some of them seek the army out.

Sociopaths and downright criminals have been joining armies since time immemorial. I don't think anyone could dispute that. We also must never underestimate the 'pack mentality' that we humans possess, no matter where we're from. There are more and more bad apples in the barrel, these days; more, arguably, than there was in the Vietnam days, and there are more that could be easier led into committing atrocities, than there would have been, as well.

Armies are changing, Big Mick. It is slow, but it is getting there. And as much as the 'policy' may to apply the GC in all aspects of operations, even we, the public are getting de-sensitised enough to accept that kind of behaviour; our 'outrage' hasn't affected too much, so far.

In ten years time, we'll not bat an eyelid at it.
Well we might... the youngsters won't.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Teribus
Date: 03 May 04 - 04:52 AM

GUEST 02 May 04 - 12:09 PM

"As others have noted, the scandal seems to still be widening. It now encompasses charges against British troops, and the American general who oversaw the prisons in Iraq has been relieved of duty and is now back in the States--and talking to the press. She says that the CIA and Army military intelligence controlled everything going in in this particular cell block, including illegally blocking access to the prisoners in question by the Red Cross, and the general herself."

No serving member of the armed forces (of the UK, to my certain knowledge) is under any obligation to carry out an order that they believe to be illegal. I say, to my certain knowledge, because it is a right that, in the time in served in the forces, I exercised on two occasions, and on both occasions my actions were upheld.

If what she has reported, in your quote above Guest, is correct, then it is only correct that she be relieved of her command as the Officer Commanding the Abu Ghraib prison, pending full investigation and possible Court Martial Proceedings and possible criminal charges. In her position, I would have ordered my men to arrest and detain, by force, if necessary, those members of the CIA and Military Intelligence operating within a facility under my command. Under no circumstances whatsoever would I have accepted restriction of access, or movement in any area that I was responsible for.

MGOH, earlier on in the thread, drew attention to the fact that the members of the US forces involved seemed untroubled about their ability to be indentified in the photographs published so far, whereas the "UK Soldiers" where a bit more circumspect about the possibility of identification. MGOH offered a possible explanation for this, there now appears to be another - that the photgraphs are faked. BBC's defence consultant, noted a number of discrepancies, uniforms, webbing, rifles, transport, complete absence of unit identification and the "pristine condition" of the subject being "interrogated". I think I will just wait to find out what comes out of the investigation, either way, it will make no difference, the damage has been done. It is also not the first accusation of mistreatment of prisoners by UK forces in Iraq. Remember Col. Collins? The allegations were proved false and he was completely exhonerated, he sued those scions of the "British Media" who were so prepared to race to print. It was an out of Court Settlement for a substantial, but undisclosed, sum. I believe that Col. Collins has since retired from from the Army (he was due to) I trust he enjoys his retirement.

El Greko, surprised to see that you advocate and fully condone collective punishment and public humiliation - just hope that none of your family ever put a foot wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 May 04 - 04:15 PM

I've always assumed that a major element in post-traumatic stress for soldiers in these messy wars must be exactly that, not just what happened to them, but what they did to other people. You have basically decent people - not all, but most - who got trapped and manipulated into doing evil things, which must disgust and horrify them once the madness is over.

How are those young people in those revolting pictures from Iraq going to feel when it's over? And how are they going to cope with those feelings?

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 May 04 - 03:10 PM

Perfect example of you not knowing what the hell you are talking about. Do you honestly believe that 18 year old US kids went to Vietnam with the intent of killing innocent civilians? The problem laid with a Pentagon that was sending young warriors into battle prepared for one kind of fight, and they get there to find another kind. Our armed forces were ready for any regular army that could be mustered. But we were woefully unprepared for the guerrilla type war we faced. BTW, GUEST, have you any comment on the Viet Cong who tortured and murdered people as well? How about the insurgents Iraqui forces that are using innocents as human shields? Any comment on that? I understand, better than you ever could, why that happens, but I am curious on your take of these heinous acts.

I hate that we are in this war, and it was started under false pretenses. But I want you to reveal your real agenda, instead of just throwing out verbal grenades and getting people to react to the bang. But then, that would require integrity, honesty, and depth of intellect. You possess none of these, so I am not hopeful............

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 04 - 03:01 PM

This is exactly what I mean when I say that the problem is the culture of the military. It is good for us, though painful and very uncomfortable, to read these accounts of how our "honorable" military conducted themselves in Vietnam.

Post-traumatic stress isn't just caused by what the so-called enemy does to the individual soldier. It can also be caused by what the soldier does to innocent civilians, prisoners, and the soldiers who are fighting against the individual soldier.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: annamill
Date: 02 May 04 - 02:42 PM

Shades and bad days again..

Wonder where Lt Calley is today?

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 04 - 02:16 PM

As Dougie Maclean sang in the first Gulf War...

"The blood will run to everyone
Oh, what have we done?"

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 May 04 - 12:50 PM

Boy, I can see this turning into a bigger and bigger mess for the USA and the CIA. It's just the tip of the iceberg at this point. If it helps discredit this idiotic and dishonest war in Iraq that's certainly okay with me.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: dianavan
Date: 02 May 04 - 12:23 PM

McGrath - That what I thought! Disgusting! Who are these specially trained, interrogators? Where do they get their training? Since they are outside the law, perhaps the person who hired them should be charged with war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Strick
Date: 02 May 04 - 12:20 PM

" However the shit only hit the fan when it got into the media in a way that couldn't be denied."

I'm confused, McGrath. By the time this hit the media, at least in this country, the 6 people directly responsible were already arrested. Have they arrested the Brits who've been accused of similar mistreatment?

Why wouldn't the general in charge of that prison be relieved of duty, GUEST? To not do so would be making the 6 scapegoats. I haven't seen her (you say this was a woman?) charges against the CIA and military intelligence in any responsible media. I've been busy and may have missed them. Could you post a link?

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 May 04 - 12:12 PM

Either very unsmart indeed - or they were under the impression that this was the authorised procedure for extracting information in modern US Army interrogation centres, with its privatised civilian experts. Which ties in with the evidence which appears to indicate that this has been going on for quite some time, and the authorities have been infirmed about it.

However the shit only hit the fan when it got into the media in a way that couldn't be denied. So what they are doing is trying to make out that this is a one-off, quite untypical, and of course with no one higher up responsible.

One thing that comes out in the news coverage - as a result of the immunity for contractors deal slipped through, it appears that, no matter what the civilian contractors involved in this unit may have done, in the way of promoting or executing war crimes such as are alleged in this case, nothing can be done to them legally, either by the Iraqi authorities (once these exist) or the US government. And I think they've also got immunity from any kind of civil cases against them. And they are also covered against any International War Cri8mes tribunal. That's quite a sweetheart deal.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 04 - 12:09 PM

RonSoda, I don't believe there is any videotape, just still photographs, which you likely have now seen if you watch television news.

As others have noted, the scandal seems to still be widening. It now encompasses charges against British troops, and the American general who oversaw the prisons in Iraq has been relieved of duty and is now back in the States--and talking to the press. She says that the CIA and Army military intelligence controlled everything going in in this particular cell block, including illegally blocking access to the prisoners in question by the Red Cross, and the general herself.

We have but scratched the surface of what is going on in Iraq, and how dishonorably our nation is conducting itself there.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST,RonSoda
Date: 01 May 04 - 10:10 PM

Anyone know where i can find the full video unedited or are they just photos that were released? Just to be able to form a better informned opinion of this whole scenario. Not too surprising that it happened, kinda more shocked that they appear to be a few Women involved in the pictures. I'll say there are stupid to pass those photos around that they wound up in the medias hands, at least these ppl aren't very smart.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 May 04 - 08:30 PM

Once again, GUEST, you show that you lack depth. You use the old tactic of speaking falsehoods long enough that they become truth, or so you think. You call me militaristic, when all it takes is a search of my posts on this issue to know that I am not. When you start to lose the intellectual debate you switch to broad generalizations that simply aren't true. Very elementary debate tactic. I don't have an objection to hating war, I don't even have an objection to hating the military establishment. But when you extend that to all of your neighbors that have served in the military, because they felt the need to answer the call, you step across the line. And you show yourself for a miserable human being with an axe to grind because folks won't tell you how special you are.

By the way, don't I recall you telling us once that your family was military at one point? What does that say about them?

By the way, I taught for a number of years as well.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 May 04 - 07:29 PM

GUEST 10:21 AM: All Army National Guard members and Army and Marine Corps Reservists receive "basic combat training", which includes everything from how to wear the uniform to very basic military skills like rifle marksmanship and how to wear a gas mask. They really don't get combat (ie, infantry) training until they get to "Advanced Individual Training", and then only if they have enlisted for an infantry specialty. All Marines, however, do get basic infantry training. If not destined for the infantry, soldiers receive training in a specific specialty, such as artillery, clerical, supply, mechanics, computer repair, etc.

Reserve and Guard units have specific specialties, and some 80% of the Army's support units are there rather than in the active army. Generally speaking, but there are exceptions, units like MPs, Signal, Civil Affairs and Quartermaster (ie, supply) are in the Reserves while the Guard has more Infantry, Armor and Artillery units. All reservists, regardless of specialty, are required to maintain a minimum level of proficiency in the core combat skills, which in reality means that they spend one weekend a year at the rifle range.

Guard units, who have command responsibilities to the state as well as to the Federal government, may be called to active duty for floods and forest fires, and to guard evacuated areas. They are not police, and generally don't get police training (unless they are an MP unit).

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST,but not original Guest , who is an idiot
Date: 01 May 04 - 05:36 PM

You're WRONG, Guest! WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! You always have been WRONG and probably always will be! I pity you, original Guest. I laugh at your feeble attempts to induce paranioa and hatred in others. I don't have any "responcet" for your opinions either!!! YOU are Soooooo Wrong!

(note that I am shouting and bullying, and I'm anonymous just like you...and you can't deliberately seek out my posts and persecute me in future because you don't know who I am)

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 04 - 05:26 PM

More likely they'll give him a shave, and maybe a face lift and put him back in charge. He's their kind of guy, when it comes down to it.

That Saddamite General they've appointed in Falluja looks remarkably familiar, don't you think?

Perhaps that guy with the whiskers they found in a hole was actually one of the look-alikes Saddam had to fool the assassins...