BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?

Subject: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 04 - 10:12 AM

Recently, someone from the UK published an article (from the Guardian I think) about the hysteria surrounding obesity, particularly in the US medical establishment. However, I can't provide a line to the thread, as I can't remember it's title.

Anyway, I thought contributors to that thread might be interested in reading this article from today's NY Times. Bizarrely, the NY Times has this article in it's Arts section.

"Demonizing Fat in the War on Weight"

WARNING: to read the article, you must register at the NY Times. It is free.

Here are a few excerpts from the article:

"Almost every day, it seems, there is another alarming study about the dangers of being fat or a new theory about its causes and cures...But a growing group of historians and cultural critics who study fat say this obsession is based less on science than on morality. Insidious attitudes about politics, sex, race or class are at the heart of the frenzy over obesity, these scholars say, a frenzy they see as comparable to the Salem witch trials, McCarthyism and even the eugenics movement.

"We are in a moral panic about obesity," said Sander L. Gilman, distinguished professor of liberal arts, sciences and medicine at the University of Illinois in Chicago and the author of "Fat Boys: A Slim Book," published last month by the University of Nebraska Press. "People are saying, `Fat is the doom of Western civilization.' "

Now, says Peter Stearns, a leading historian in the field, the rising concern with obesity "is triggering a new burst of scholarship." These researchers don't condone morbid obesity, but they do focus on the ways the definition of obesity and its meaning have shifted, often arbitrarily, throughout history.

Mr. Stearns, provost and professor of history at George Mason University, has written that plumpness was once associated with "good health in a time when many of the most troubling diseases were wasting diseases like tuberculosis." He traces the equation of obesity and moral deficiency to the late-19th and early-20th centuries. In 1914, an article in the magazine Living Age, for example, stated, "Fat is now regarded as an indiscretion and almost a crime."

...In "Fat Boys," Mr. Gilman describes how plumpness used to be associated with affluence and the aristocracy, while today it is associated with the poor and their supposedly bad eating habits...

...In Mr. Stearns's view, 19th-century changes in attitudes toward obesity were a guilty reaction to the new abundance of food, the rise of the consumer culture and the growth of sedentary work habits. "I don't think we were comfortable with it because of religious legacies and hesitations," he said in an interview. "Having a target for self-control, like dieting, helped express but also reconcile moral concerns about consumer affluence," Mr. Stearns writes; the dieting fad become a new kind of Puritanism.

Other contemporary scholars see a more dangerous underside to the current campaign against fat. Paul Campos, a professor of law at the University of Colorado, argues that obesity is used as a tool of discrimination, citing disturbing similarities to the eugenics movement, with its emphasis on "improving" the species. Obesity in America is "primarily a cultural and political issue," Mr. Campos writes in his new book, "The Obesity Myth" (Gotham), due out this month. "The war on fat," he argues, "is unique in American history in that it represents the first concerted attempt to transform the vast majority of the nation's citizens into social pariahs, to be pitied and scorned."

___________________________________________

That should give those who choose not to register with the NYT, the gist of the article.

A link to that other article in this thread, which talked about how there is virtually no medically sound science behind the medical establishments claims linking obesity to life threatening diseases, would be great to have. I'm hoping someone will post it here.

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: Ed.
Date: 01 May 04 - 10:22 AM

The other thread: This just in: It's OK to be fat

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: GUEST,Marlon Brando
Date: 01 May 04 - 10:25 AM

Piss off all you emaciated twats.

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 04 - 10:35 AM

Thanks Ed for the link! That's the one.

Are there any large sized people here who feel they have been discriminated against due to their size in employment, housing, health care treatment, etc?

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: harpgirl
Date: 01 May 04 - 10:39 AM

I just read "Bobos in Paradise" by David Brooks which I recommend to anyone interested in reading some current popular sociological theory.

He says this:"Physical regimes are ways to encourage moral behavior through the backdoor. People who follow them are leading lives of disciplined self-restraint, but they are doing so in the names of their bodies instead of their souls."

Brooks suggests that in our worst moments as bohemians that have become bourgeios (BOBOS) we worship good health as a substitute for a rigourous moral code and a spiritual life!

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: NH Dave
Date: 01 May 04 - 10:45 AM

While demonizing obesity may fall to rampant PCism, increased death rate due to heart failure, diabetes and all its associated pathologies, hypertension and its associated pathologies, do NOT lessen due to an oversensitive social conscience. You become and remain fat and many nasty surprizes lay in store for you, including the inability to recognise your feet for not having seen them for so long.

DAve

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 04 - 10:53 AM

Dave, the point that the article in the Guardian is making is that the medical studies, when taken together and reviewed critically by sceptical medical researchers, don't support the conclusions that 1) there has been any increase in deaths from the life threatening diseases you mention and their associated illnesses, and 2) that the linking of obesity to increased incidences of these same diseases, when compared to non-obese control groups, isn't any higher than the latter.

So, what is just now starting to come to light, and the medical research profession begins to look closely at and scrutinize the study data on obesity and life threatening diseases, is that the linking done by the medical practioners (not to mention the multi-billion dollar diet and plastic surgery industries) between the two, may well be bad medicine at the very least.

That should concern everyone, because it potentially means none of us is receiving the right medical treatments or health recommendations.

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 04 - 11:08 AM

Depends how you define the term "discriminate". In a neutral sense, to discriminate can mean simply to notice the differences between things or to make choices between various possibilities. It can also mean to make keen observations.

Lately the word has been used a lot in a negative fashion, as associated with prejudice.

So is it bad to discriminate? Yes and no.

There is a healthy way to be large of body and an unhealthy way, just as there is a healthy way to be thin and an unhealthy way. So you have to judge each individual case on its own merits.

I did notice when I was in Cuba that the population there (who were certainly getting enough to eat) were very markedly more slender and active and in better shape than the average North American population. I think that is for a number of reasons. The Cubans are eating a more natural diet (less junk food, more home-cooked food, more fruit and vegetables). They are getting more exercise (less sedentary lifestyle and more active social life and less TV/computer/nintendo/etc). They are not overeating as much. They are happier (Yes, I am serious about that! Trinidadians are happier too, and they are not socialist, so I am not propagandizing for any political system when I say that Cubans are happier...they just are.). Unhappy people tend to eat just to fill their emotional emptiness. Happy people are more active and are out doing things instead. The Cubans are getting better health care across the whole spectrum of the population (because it's 100 % free!)...so virtually no one has bad teeth, for example.

You see the North American tourists in Cuba....most of them look like bleached or sunburned whales in comparison to the locals. Very porky. Even the North American teenagers look porky.

It's a problem, and it's not surprising that people are concerned about it, but at the same time the fashion world is perpetuating unrealistic stereotypes of ridiculously thin models all the time...so the situation is really way off balance at both ends.

And you know why that is? Marketing. The Sy$tem wants people to overconsume, and they do. It also wants to make them paranoid about their overconsumption so they'll pay out big bucks for various remedies. One unholy marketing hand washes the other.

In places like Trinidad and Cuba most people don't worry about this kind of nonsense too much. They just live naturally, the way North Americans did 100 years ago or more...before the marketing Sy$tem took everything over and turned it to crap.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: harpgirl
Date: 01 May 04 - 11:13 AM

ah heck...think I'll go worship on the treadmill alter!

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 04 - 11:26 AM

Little Hawk, as usual, you are needlessly obfuscating here, by suggesting my use of the word 'discrimination/discriminatory' could be equated with the definition you are suggesting. Anyone with a half a brain knows from the context of my remarks that the definition of the word to which I was referring was the legal definition of it.

So I was asking, has anyone been denied a job, housing, adequate medical care, etc. as a result of their size?

Why am I using the word at all? Because it is being raised in both articles I am referring to, as this excerpt from the NY Times article shows:

"Kathleen LeBesco, associate professor of communication arts at Marymount Manhattan College, also asserts that at the root of the current slimness craze is an effort to stigmatize certain groups.

In a new book, "Revolting Bodies" (University of Massachusetts Press), Ms. LeBesco writes that African-American and Mexican-American women are particularly targeted as obese in contemporary culture. "All of the discourse about fatness is about pathologizing the individual," she said in an interview, also likening it to the eugenics movement.

She refers to a study by the Centers for Disease Control in which the highest proportions of overweight people are said to be African-American women and Mexican-American women. "Is it coincidence that representatives of these two stigmatized racial and ethnic groups, as well as women, are most likely to be obese?" Ms. LeBesco writes."

It appears to me, Little Hawk, that your remarks tell us more about your personal prejudices against large people, than anything else. Your anecdotal remarks about visiting Cuba aren't exactly the equivalent of a 20 year medical study.

Besides, happiness, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 May 04 - 11:47 AM

It just amazes me on these discussions of being fat and obese how those that probably are try to shoot holes in the whole unhealthy thing and dismiss much of the research as marketing propaganda and such.

People are going to discriminate against others for being fat, stupid, of a particular race, etc. The fat thing is something you can do something about.

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 04 - 11:52 AM

You may be quite right, Guest. Our dog, Rennie, is reputed to have only "half a brain", and he knew exactly what you meant by "discriminatory". :-) So did I, but I was just enjoying talking about the subject because it's interesting.

I haven't had time yet to do a 20-year study on happiness in Cuba. (sigh...) I would love to if I did have the time.

Yes, I know two horrendously obese people in this town who are discriminated against by all the taxi companies. They won't give them rides anymore. It's partly because they are so heavy that it's bad for the cars (you have to see these two to really get the picture...they are a couple), it's partly because their personal hygiene leaves much to be desired, and it's partly because of their general attitude...

Is that discrimination. Yes...but in which sense? Legal or otherwise? Or is it both?

I think you should take it up with the Orillia taxi companies. Their names are: Able Taxi, Casino Cabs, Timberline, and Swift. I can supply phone numbers if you need 'em.

Good luck.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 04 - 12:05 PM

I, and the authors being cited in these articles, aren't referring to people the size of a sofa bed.

We are talking about people who are overweight, and most of the people I know who are, are pretty meticulous with both their hygiene and dress, because of the negative stereotypes about overweight people being big, fat slobs (as I believe Little Hawk's and Martin Gibson's posts are obvious proof).

I am interested in two aspects of this, as I stated in the other thread. The first, is medical concern for two relatives, both women, who have had the stomach stapling surgery, which I remain extremely sceptical about. So I have a personal interest in the medical truth. And this wouldn't be the first time the medical establishment got it wrong, by any means.

The second is the fact I believe the prejudices and discrimination against overweight people is directly largely at women, and women of color in particular. I work with a lot of overweight teen girls everyday, and I see how relentless the bullying and ostracization of them is.

And Martin Gibson, since Brad Pitt is considered obese according the BMI, I think your statement that only fat people want the medical evidence to be wrong, to be a demonstration of your blinding prejudices and pig-headed stuborness to maintain them, and certainly not a well informed opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 04 - 12:17 PM

Guest - Simply refer to this statement in my earlier post...

"There is a healthy way to be large of body and an unhealthy way, just as there is a healthy way to be thin and an unhealthy way. So you have to judge each individual case on its own merits."

That really says it all.

I agree that the relentless bullying and ostracizing of overweight teens is extremely cruel and unfair. When I was in school I was relentlessly bullied partly because I was very small and thin (and shy and studious), but being "fat", if you can bear to hear that word, would have put me in an even worse situation. I remember well.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 04 - 12:22 PM

Well, relentless bully and ostracizing of overweight teens, becomes social ostracization and discrimination by adults.

And lest we forget, teen bullying and ostracization is learned behavior from adults.

I can bear the word fat, and don't have a problem hearing or using it, unless it is being used as a cruel taunt or a four letter expletive.

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 04 - 12:27 PM

Okay.

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 May 04 - 12:48 PM

Guest, it is my best guestimate opinion that you have to use a full lenth mirror to see your own genitalia and that this troubles you greatly. Please try to change your diet and lose all that weight you are carrying around and then you may find that you can dwell on something else.

However, I do hope things work out for your two relatives who had the stomach stapling surgery. Please have faith in modern medicine and not be so "sceptical" as you say you are. People who are sceptical usually get that way from drinking from a sceptic tank.

Actually, I like women who are a bit zoftig.

As for Brad Pitt, you just don't know how important that information is to everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: Cluin
Date: 01 May 04 - 01:24 PM

"And lest we forget, teen bullying and ostracization is learned behavior from adults."

Horseshit. How many teenagers do you actually know? Do you even remember being one? Teens need to adults to show them how to bully and ostracize; they practice it as an art form all on their own. Always did; always will.

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: Cluin
Date: 01 May 04 - 01:34 PM

(should be "Teen need no adults..." in the post above.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: GUEST,Lilyfestre
Date: 01 May 04 - 01:35 PM

Hmmm...certainly a touchy subject for many! I am a large woman, always have been and likely always will be. However, within the last year or so, I have lost a significant amount of weight. One of my best friends, who was the same size as myself, if not a bit larger, had her stomach stapled. Last summer, she was wearing a size 4. She looks pretty darn good.

Fast forward to this spring. My friend has gained a little weight back and still looks good. I am still overweight and well, I don't look as good as she does. That's life. However, I am in excellent health. Diabetes is under control (my ENTIRE family with the exception of one cousin is diabetic...so is mine weight related or family...hard to say), my blood pressure is normal and my cholesterol levels are well within the limits. My friend is not in such good shape. The folds of her remaining stomach (inside) are rotting, an ulcer has developed, she still pukes all the time but is getting better at hiding it....she's a mess and likely will require more surgery to help alleviate some of her problems.

So....in my mind, this whole thin/fat issue really comes down to individuals and what is right for each person. If you don't like your body or it's hurting you...do something to change it. If you are comfortable with yourself and you feel good...why in the world does it matter to anyone else?

As far as discrimination, it goes on all the time...open your eyes and look around!!!! I think there is a ton of stereo-typing going on as well. Lots of people (even as seen on this very thread) think that fat people are lazy or don't care enough to take care of themselves by eating right or exercising. I hate to burst your bubble folks, but the majority of large people I know DO exercise and DO eat pretty healthy. Yes, I know, that's not for all fat people....but honestly, it frosts my ass when that assumption is made.

You know what else? I have a friend who is naturally thin. I'm talking THIN....she's 5'10 and weighs maybe 120 pounds soaking wet. She eats and eats and eats....it's just the way she is wired. She runs into discrimination as well. People think I eat too much and that my friend must be starving herself or is anorexic. We both have sat through bullshit conversations with doctors about our weight....both of us leaving with the impression that doctors don't know what the hell they are talking about. I don't know. It's a messed up world. If you don't fit into the mold of the world, you must be unhealthy, crazy or something. *YAWN* People are people. I think people should worry about their own bodies...tend to that and let others tend to their own as well.

I could go on and on. As I said earlier, touchy subject for many...myself included. Don't we all have more important things to tend to besides another person's body weight???!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

A very large, healthy and happy woman,

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 04 - 02:47 PM

"How many teenagers do you actually know?"

Thanks for asking Cluin.

Well, personally I know quite a few, family and friends, etc. I would guesstimate around 30-50, but I at an age where me and my contemporaries have teens of our own we are raising.

I also work in an inner city high school, with a student population of 2,200.

But I'm sure that won't qualify me as knowledgeable about teenagers at all, in your eyes.

By the way, bullying isn't something done by poor, low self-esteem kids who have been taunted, contrary to conventional wisdom. Male bullies for instance (there are gender differences between male and female bullies, both in the way they bully, and how they are perceived by others) are usually very self-confident, and are always from the most popular crowds. Female bullies, on the other hand, are usually viewed by others in the opposite way, and in the status hierarchy among teen social groups, female bullies are about as unpopular as the bullied male, who is always one step from the bottom of the status hierarchy. At the very bottom of the status hierarchy among teenagers, are girls who are bullied by both males and females.

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: Cluin
Date: 01 May 04 - 03:05 PM

I take it all back. You're an expert. You've got it all categorized nicely.

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: GUEST,another GUEST
Date: 01 May 04 - 04:13 PM

I am always skeptical of journalistic accounts of scientific studies. The preponderance of the best research still shows that

1) Obesity is a dangerous condition that CAN exacerbate heart disease, hypertension, diabetes, and other killer diseases.

2) Obesity has a partly genetic basis; among identical twins separated at birth and raised apart, there is a high correlation of obesity (ie if one is obese, the other is much more likely to be obese).

3) Even if it is not genetically determined for you, if you become obese as a child it will be very difficult to ever be normal weight again. It is possible, but much more difficult than for those who became obese as adults. This has to do with the way we store fat (by cell division as children, cell growth as adults). It was partly the original research of a scientist in my family that showed this. One hypothesis is that Americans are getting fatter because of what we feed our kids BEFORE they become obsessed with weight.

4) Obese people in general live shorter lives than non-obese counterparts (if you don't believe doctors, ask insurance companies).

This means that

1) obese people ARE likely to be in poorer health because of their obesity, despite what our decidedly non-expert GUEST thinks

but

2)there is not necessarily anything they can do about the obesity (besides risky surgery), despite what our equally non-expert Martin Gibson has to say.

Therefore, fat people should not be judged or dicriminated against.

But that doesn't necessarily mean "it's all right to fat." It would depend what you meant by "all right." It's like saying "it's all right to have heart disease." On the one hand, it's certainly morally all right, and no one should make fun of people with heart disease OR the obese. On the other hand, it would be better for you and your loved ones if you were not obese.

The tone, it seems to me, comes from the Guardian and times articles, not from scientists who recommend weight loss...

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: GUEST,another GUEST
Date: 01 May 04 - 04:15 PM

I meant to say "the moralistic tone" in the last sentence of my post above

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: GUEST,Yet another Guest
Date: 01 May 04 - 05:21 PM

Fat chance!

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 May 04 - 05:28 PM

I do agree really that fat people should not be discriminated against. How are you going to change it? How is anyone?

It's like anything else in this world of political correctness.

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: dianavan
Date: 01 May 04 - 06:02 PM

I think that many people discriminate against fat folks is because it is associated with greed and sloth. For men its a little different. It is actually considered a sign of wealth and prosperity. If you are applying for a job (expecially if you're a woman) the fat factor will definitely work against you.

But yes, I know that discrimination against fat people exists and I can't help but notice that many Americans are overweight. I do think the reasons are many and I applaud the research that is looking into the causes. I wouldn't doubt that many are overweight as a result of stress and emotional problems. In other words, eat and forget.

It also seems a convenient way to focus on your own problems instead of focussing on what you can do to help others.

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 04 - 12:36 PM

The main cause of obesity is a sedentary life style. Americans, more than any other nation on the planet, don't walk to their destinations, they drive. American cities aren't set up for people to walk to their daily destinations such as school, work, shops, etc. Everyone gets driven or uses mass transit instead of walking. That much we know, and don't need studies or articles to explain it. People can drop a tremendous amount of weight, just by walking for 1/2 to 1 hour a day.

So why no research into the cause and effect of urban planning and transportation policies on American's health in general and obesity in particular?

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 May 04 - 01:04 PM

Why? Because more money is to be made by keeping people sedentary, that's why! You just get 'em to buy more expenive machines. Example: They could walk to the TV, but instead you sell the lazy buggers an $80 remote so they can channelsurf and never have to get up out of the chair. LOL!!!

Imagine what would happen to an animal that just sat in a cage and ate all day. Hmmmm....

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 02 May 04 - 08:36 PM

RE 'stomach stapeling'

I tried like hell to get the 'stomach stapeling operation but my HMO actively blocked it. There are 2 basic operations of this kind done in the western US. The most common and preferred (by HMO's) is the Roux-en-Y operation. It staples the stomach (This is done not only to reduce the size of the stomach but also to adjust the juices it secretes.) and removes the pyloric valve from the digestive path. As far as I have been able to discover, the only reason for removing the pylorus is to make you sick if you accidentally eat the wrong things. The other operation, usually preferred by patients, is the duodenal switch. It also staples the stomach but also removes about a third of the small intestine. The pylorus is left intact. In both cases the stomach may regain it's original size after about 2 years, which means diminishing results from the Roux-en-Y. During this time, you have to eat small, frequent meals and take fluids almost constantly. High protein intake is necessary. The possible side effects are: internal bleeding, pulled stitches, hernias, and gall bladder problems. Depending on the surgeon, there is a chance you may die. About .002% do, I think. Both require a life long attention to diet. The duodenal switch, however, is permanent, although it can be undone.

Why would any one want to do this. It's often easy to lose weight but impossible to keep it off. After a few years this can be a real drag. When my current weight loss regimine is finished, I'll have to spend the rest of my life on a 2000 calorie a day diet. Think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 03 May 04 - 01:30 PM

I would have to say that part of the Happy Cubans happiness is that they live in a tropical paradise (if a dictatorial tropical paradise). If the sun was always shining and the cool caribean breezes were always blowing at my place I'd probably be doing alot more walking, swimming, biking, etc. The only exercise some Northerners get all winter is the heart attack snow shoveling. It's may also have something to do with the economic situation there (using what money you have to buy what you really need and walking to the store rather than driving the two or three blocks and having to pay for gas and insurance.

Anyhoo...

Discrimination based on size is as bad as discrimination based on any other factor. There have been many prejudicial mannerisms linked to certain races which have kept them out of housing, jobs, etc. Just because they can't do anything about their "color" and obese people supposedly can (although research has shown that at least a small percentage of people can't) is no reason why such discrimination should be allowed.

Is obesity a dangerous condition? As far as I know it CAN exascerbate other conditions, but this is assuming that the other conditions exist. It is possible to be obese and have fantastic cholesterol levels. It is possible to be obese and yet live perfectly healthy lives (as some studies of Italian people and their eating habits seem to indicate). This is still no reason to discriminate against obese persons. Smoking is a much more dangerous thing (which can be changed) and yet if a person is tidy and doesn't smell like a chimney they are much more likely to get a job when compared to an obese person.

I find it ironic that one of the most beloved characters in global society, Santa Claus, would not be given a job as a seller of toys because he is (Hey, I still believe damnit!) what physicians would say is morbidly obese.

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: GUEST,Grab
Date: 03 May 04 - 06:13 PM

I read the Guardian article which claimed fat people were no more likely to die than thin people. And it's rubbish.

Fat sedentary people may have similar mortality rates to thin people who exercise. However, this is at the cost of vastly increased resources in medical support as, one by one, the organs of fat people cease working. Sure, modern medicine can keep you living with diabetes, renal failure, liver damage, clogged arteries, etc. But the cost is incredible.

In any case, the article is simply wrong as regards heart attacks and strokes - obesity *does* cause increased occurrence of both of these.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 04 May 04 - 04:57 PM

Here's some truth for you.
We have to generate messages detailing injuries which cause work time loss. There are hundreds of injury messages because of injuries suffered during exercise or sports. I've never seen one claiming that the injuries (up to and including loss of limbs and loss of life) were in any way caused by the person being overweight.

I've never known any sickness to affect fat people and leave the skinnies alone or affect the fats more than the skinnies.

Although I do believe in discrimination when it comes to jobs that require a vast amount of physical exertion (police, fire fighters, etc.) I find that most of it is just plain based on stereotypes about fat people being lazy, uncaring about their hygeine, etc.

I have had two cases of people being lazy and uncaring about their hygeine. Both were skinny people, well within recommended weight limits.

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 04 May 04 - 08:58 PM

The "in group" only exists to get recognition from the "out group" !!

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 May 04 - 09:14 PM

To quote from Alan Sherman, when you meet a fat person on the street, say "Hail to thee, fat person: You kept us out of war."

In how many of the "3rd world" nations are the standards of beauty and health such that the "normal" folks here in the US would be less than attractive? Of course, everyone knows that only our ( Western) view has any validity...

Subject: RE: BS: Is demonizing obesity discriminatory?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 May 04 - 09:49 PM

ah, guest....**PART** of the cause of some obesity is "a sedentary life style"!!!

I know people who are physically active, eat VERY reasonably and still cannot be thin. I personally have the opposite genetic makeup--I can eat all day, do little exercise and barely gain weight. My brother, who grew up in the same house --eating the same foods and exercising MORE than me, was at 265 lbs for awhile. He did lose the worst of that, but will always be rounder than me. I am simply lucky!

Of course some aspects of being overweight can be controlled with diet & exercise, and we DO have, as a class, some bad habits---but do NOT assume all plump folks are just careless and lazy.