BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....

Subject: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Bobert
Date: 03 May 04 - 10:25 PM

Okay, 2nd Ammendmenters. Howz 'bout 50 caliber sniper guns? They can shoot down commercial aircraft. They can blow up railroad tanker cars. Actually, they can mess up a lot of stuff that civilized societies would rather not have messed up... Looks as if there is a recent bill to make them illegal... Hmmmmmmm?

Okay, I'd have to agree that they make very good deer hunting rifles but so do others that pose less a menace to our society on the whole. Like, if you can't take Bambi down with a 30.06 witha scope then maybe you need to find another hobby. But 50 caliber?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Amergin
Date: 03 May 04 - 10:27 PM

I hear they're good for shooting elephants....

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: DonMeixner
Date: 03 May 04 - 10:40 PM

Bobert, The .50 Cal is in fact a scaled up 30.06 in exact proportion.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Bobert
Date: 03 May 04 - 10:46 PM

"Scaled up" is the operative term, Don. Heck, a nuclear bomb is just a scaled up version of the cherry bomb, fir that matter...

Jus' funnin'

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 May 04 - 11:42 PM

A Canadian outfit named Boys used to make a 50 cal. antitank rifle. Surplus gun outlests were peddling them with the slogan: "Stop that charging woodchuck in its tracks!"

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: LadyJean
Date: 04 May 04 - 12:23 AM

Oh Lord PLEASE don't let the local gang bangers get their hands on one of those, at least not until I've left the neighborhood!

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 May 04 - 02:09 AM

Nothing wrong with 50 caliber guns. In fact most blackpowder era guns were near 50 caliber or even larger. Hardly something to bring down an airplane with.

As to "sniper guns" it's a nice, convenient, but meaningless demonization, but what's your real point?

Just another troll?

John

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 May 04 - 01:02 PM

It seems pretty obvious that what Bobert is suggesting is that is that there are weapons freely on sale in the USA which could be used by terrorists to shoot down aircraft and so forth, and that sooner or later we can expect that such things will be happening, considering some of tey bstuff that';s happened in the last couple of years.

Seems quite a reasaonable thing to worry about, if it's true.

Who needs WMDs?

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: DonMeixner
Date: 04 May 04 - 01:11 PM

Mac,

The gun described here-in is not easily had anywhere. They are single shot items that require a very unique type of round. The cartridge and the bolt are a single unit. The muzzle velocity is so great they are lousy for hunting. Gang bangers wouldn't touch em because they can't befired with one hand (They need the other to hold up their pants you see.)

This a typical Bobert bit of Wind Baggery about a gun that is so arcane as to be like finding a Two Penny Black on a post card sent by Aunt Jeannie while visiting Herm in Guernsey.

If you want to get hot about a gun, Get over something real, Like all plastic or ceramic pistols that can't be seen by metal detectors.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 04 May 04 - 01:38 PM

The only people that have anything to worry about for this kind of weapon are politicians!

I'd be more worried about the new fully automatic A-12 shotgun with the barrel magazine. With birdshot you can put about thirty rounds through it in less than a minute. Talk about ripping into a crowd!

I've known people who hunted squirrel and chipmunks with .40 and .45 pistols. They thought it was fun to shoot through the tree of fencepost and watch the chipmunk tumble through the air after the bullet went through the wood.

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 04 - 02:47 PM

at $5.00 a shot and $3800 for the gun, not many gangbangers will want one. The recoil is fierce, and they are very heavy large rifles indeed. They are not easily concealed under your coat. Now, a .300 Weatherby magnum will do the same thing, and is much cheaper. Of course properly used, a .30-06 is all the gun you need for any job in North America including low flying 747's.... Get a life people....

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 04 - 02:47 PM

Almost any rifle can be used for sniping. Just needs a good marksman/markswoman squeezing the trigger.

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: pdq
Date: 04 May 04 - 02:56 PM

Gun violence requires two main ingrediants: guns and people.

Gun technology gets better every year. That is not the problem.

The quality of people seems to drop every year. Look at all of our larger cities. That is the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: DonMeixner
Date: 04 May 04 - 02:58 PM

Bruce, would that more correctly be called Markspersonship?

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 May 04 - 03:00 PM

I own two .50 caliber rifles and just bought a kit to make a .54 caliber. The first two are percussion lock muzzleloaders, and the .54 is a flintlock.

Bobert (who's a good guy) is thinking about stuff like this.

I'm not worried. Check out the price, for one thing. And each round costs a bundle -- see above! It's not the sort of thing you'd take out plinking or rabbit hunting (not even grizzly hunting!).

Yeah, it'll bring down an aircraft. IF you're good enough. Aircraft have also been brought down with a spear (really!).

These are sold as sniper guns -- Carlos Hathcock made a kill in 'Nam with a single shot from a .50 caliber machine gun at something like 2,000 yards. Target shooters who use them (and there a a few out there) are extreme long range enthusiasts.

I'm more worried about a punk with a cheap .380 handgun....

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Ironmule
Date: 04 May 04 - 03:39 PM

If you're worried about terrorists bringing down planes, worry about the left over "Stingers" they've been using on helicopters and C-130's in Iraq getting imported over here. Much more effective and easier to use than a $3000 to $5000 rifle, that has an ear drum rupturing bang when you use it. Terrorism is all about grabbing headlines by "making a statement"

Gang Bangers want a concealable cheap piece, like a .380, because they may have to throw it away when a Cop comes near.

You are a lot more likely to be killed by some beered up, damn fool kid with a turbocharged Accord than win the lottery, and I don't believe anyone outside a theater of war has been killed by the Browning .50 cartridge. Zero, none, no one.

I prefer to be scared of things that might happen, like beered up drivers, or gang bangers looking for dope money, than phantom scenarios dreamed up for propaganda purposes.

Jeff Smith

PS, I've got a .62, but it's a flintlock replica of the sort of shotgun popular in Pennsylvania around 1750 or so, and despite practice, I can't hit the broad side of a barn in three tries beyond 75 yards. Until I can do that regularly, I'm not going to try for a duck, let alone a 747. 747's taste lousy also, probably the hydraulic fluid.

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 May 04 - 03:59 PM

But can you buy those "Stingers" in gun stores, and are they covered by "right to bear arms"?

Remember the terrorists you need to worry about in States aren't just foreigners. Shooting down aircraft might seem a neat alternative to drive-by killings and neighbourhood sniping to some nut. Most likely some ex-military guy with serious hang-ups.

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 04 May 04 - 04:19 PM

It's funny, I was about to defend the military but the FBI profile for serial killers seems to be young, white, male, with a stint in the military, jobless or low wage job, who lives at home with his mother. I really think it's the last that drive them to murder.

I'm one of the few who thinks that the second amendment doesn't actually cover citizens bearing arms, but doesn't care. I don't want to take away anyone's right to self defense. It is true that if you outlaw guns then only outlaws will have guns. I would however, like to take the cheap, throw away, saturday night specials that the gangbangers love of the market. If they had to buy more expensive weapons they might not bother. Owners might be more careful about preventing their theft, thus limiting the access of the gangbangers to some weaponry. Unfortunately there is a black market in cheap guns and someone would scream that we were taking away a poor persons right to self defense.

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 May 04 - 04:23 PM

"...if you outlaw guns then only outlaws will have guns"

Be fair - I know there are some dodgy police, but it's going a bit far to class them all as "outlaws".

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 04 May 04 - 04:36 PM

Actually Chief - only 8% of weapons involved in crime are purchased. The other 92%? You guessed it - stolen. So taking anything off the market doesn't do much for crime prevention.

Taking cheap weapons off the market just takes weapons out of the hands of law abiding citizens who can't afford the spendy ones. There I said it and didn't scream it - good to go??

My first 22 cost $13. Most likely considered a Saturday Night Special.

Are you sure McGrath? My cousin was a cop -

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 May 04 - 05:33 PM

The problem, as I see it and as I've experienced it, is that the US is actually evolving into two segments: rural and urban. Urbanites cannot see the need for -- and indeed have little need for -- firearms. On the other hand, those in rural areas see just the opposite.

Both are correct, because each situation is different.

Living around Cincinnati, in Northern Indiana, near Cleveland, I would suspect that 75% of the those I met really had no need for firearms and did not want them.

Living here in the West, in a small city quite literally three hours from 'most anything, where hunting and fishing were and are activities in which about 85% of the population indulges, where 4-H clubs teach shooting safety on a rifle range that continues out to 675 yards and has a whole mountain for a backstop, folks don't get excited about firearms. They're taken as tools, not viewed as a "solution" as so many urbanites seem to see them.

It's a complex problem, which neither side likes to admit because complex problems aren't easily solved. And while I can see the problem, no, I don't have a solution.

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Bobert
Date: 04 May 04 - 08:50 PM

Thank you, Rapster, fir the assist. Yes it is the M82A1 that I have a level of concern about. We're not talking no muzzle loader that ain't accurate at 100 yardfs here but a real live 50 caliber sniper weapon, more than capable of doing some serious damage at long range. I would just think that since it's two main features, wallup and range, make it a very dangerous weapon that maybe, just maybe, in these times of increased security fears that someone wanting to purchase such a weapon might be a person of ineterest to the Department of Homeland Security???

Oh, silly me, I forgot. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Right? No, not really. When I was growing up we didn't have a lot of handguns and we duked it out in the backyard or behind the schoolhouse. No one died from it. Now we got handguns in evry kids ahnds and we're wondering why so many of out kids are getting shot to death? Hmmmmmm? Let me get the Wes Ginny Slide Rule on the case. I'm sure there's some logical explanation other than handguns everywhere...

And who ever it was that called me a "troll". Kiss my grits. I posted over 5000 times and never been called a troll. Grow up! Just 'cause you may not agree with someone doesn't give you some deputy status to go 'round taggin' everyone you don't agree with as trolls... Like I said, grow up. We're all adults here, neighbor...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 05 May 04 - 02:17 AM

G'day Dick Greenhaus:

"A Canadian outfit named Boys used to make a 50 cal. antitank rifle"

Actually, Boys was an English officer on the team trying to cobble together an anti-tank rifle before WW II ... he died just before they design was finalised (using a .55" 'belted' rimless cartridge") - so they named it after him. I presume the Poms got them made up in Canada. The Aussies made a few spares for them (my Grandfather instructed in their use) but we then invented a castable armour alloy, so tanks could now be made that no portable rifle could pierce (we handed the alloy over to the Yanks ... negating our favourite rhyming slang "Tin Tanks", as it were ... )

Both the British 'Boys Rifle' and the .50" Browning used cartidges based on the German WW I Mauser anti-tank rifle ... a great big bolt-action job that must have been pretty fearsome to fire, but it was a direct scaling up - of the German 7.92 mm rifle round.

My GrandDad was a solid little bloke - I don't think io would be keen to fire a Boys Rifle - even once!

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 04 - 02:38 AM

Bobert: When you were growing up, there were a lot fewer limitations to gun ownership. Now, anyone under 18 with a gun has it illegally. It seems to me that the more laws are passed, the worse the situation becomes. It does not take a rocket scientist ( 8-) )to think that if what you are doing makes things worse, you should stop doing them.

AND of course, if you want to say that the danger gives the right to ignore the 2nd amendment, then how about the others? Why let people practice a religion that encourages violence? Or write articles that incite violence? Or any of the other rights we would like to have? Can you complain about the Patriot Act ( which I find really scary, given that the next administration might decide that how you raise your children is of highest concern) when you would allow ANY part of the Bill of Rights to be run roughshod over? I have to agree with Thomas Moore on this one... I would give even the devil the benefit of the law.

And the German anti-tank gun was 13mm or so. A 12 gauge shotgun puts about a 1 inch slug out there, if you want to knock something down- but a .30 cal was the standard in quite a few WWII aircraft. During WWII, the US made a lot of single shot shotguns, out of a piece of wood, two tubes, and a nail. We dropped them to partisans, to be used to "acquire" more useful weapons- but they worked.

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 May 04 - 03:40 AM

Thomas Moore wrote lots of good songs, such as "The Minstrel Boy. Thomas More was the one who was for eventh devilhaving the law, and had his head chopped off by Henry VIII.

Just because the people cobbling together the Unted Constitution rounded up a set of "rights" and put them down as amendments doesn't mean they all have the same universal basic and universal status. Some of them are a lot more fundamental than others, and the right to bear arms is a lot less basic than others. More especially when it gets extended to cover too wide a range of arms. It seems pretty clear that there has to be a limit on what can be possessed by anyone. (Including governments.)

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 04 - 03:53 AM

I stand corrected on More...

But have you read the Founding Fathers on this? The right to bear arms was one of the reasons that they fought the Revolution. And if you use that logic, WHO DECIDES which rights are fundemental? There have been limitations for quite a while- on all the rights. But that does not mean the right should be casually dismissed. Perhaps if more concern was given to what people did, rather than what they had, there would be less of a concern. IT IS ALREADY AGAINST THE LAW to shot down aircraft, or people, or blow up things: Why remove the rights of a citizen to legally own a weapon, when the criminal can obtain it with ease? THERE IS NO WAY to prevent people/groups/nations from making explosives, or a munber of other weapons. What can be done is to make the cost of USING them prohibitively high. The problem with terrorists is that there is no cost high enough to stop them, that we are willing to exact.

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Stu
Date: 05 May 04 - 09:39 AM

'The right to bear arms was one of the reasons that they fought the Revolution'

But times change, and it seems to me the zeal with which Americans guard their right to kill each other with firearms might indicate the time has come for a change. This is no great slur on your human rights or your freedoms, it simply means that when a society reaches a point when violence is acceptable the rights of those caught in the crossfire needs defending (hint: this is why the rest of the world thinks the American Military is wrong in the case of Iraq - too much emphasis on violent overwhelming force results in too many little people getting killed, to quote a famous musician).

I'm just really glad I don't live anywhere that has guns so freely available - I like to feel safe. It's bad enough criminals have them, let alone the general population.

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 May 04 - 10:06 AM

'The right to bear arms was one of the reasons that they fought the Revolution'

And so? Revolutions in various parts of the world come and they go, and the constitutions they throw up are shaped by the fashions of the time, and couched in the language of the day.

All rights have limits, when they run up against other rights. Myself I think it'd probably be more helpful to think in terms of a universal right to do anything, subject to a set of universal social duties which place constraints on that right.

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Midchuck
Date: 05 May 04 - 10:43 AM

Raper (well, it's spelled something like that) said:

The problem, as I see it and as I've experienced it, is that the US is actually evolving into two segments: rural and urban. Urbanites cannot see the need for -- and indeed have little need for -- firearms. On the other hand, those in rural areas see just the opposite.

The funny thing about that is, I live in Vermont, which is definitely rural if you don't count Chittenden County, and no real Vermonter does; and Vermont is the only state in the Union where there are no handgun licenses at all - you want to carry concealed, you just do it.

I have several handguns, and like to shoot - "Stamp out the tin cans before they take over!" is my battle cry - but I never carry a gun unless I'm on my way to go shooting. In Vermont, I don't feel the need. When I go to the cities, I feel a strong need, but I'm not allowed to. A most ingenious paradox.

Getting back to the original topic, I'd love to see the gang-bangers with heavy, slow-fire sniper rifles instead of light rapid-fire weapons. They'd concentrate more on each other, and innocent bystanders would probably be in less danger.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Grab
Date: 05 May 04 - 01:22 PM

Norton quotes that 92% of guns used by criminals are stolen, and uses that as the basis of "gun control is a waste of time". What this misses is that the guns have to be stolen *from* somewhere. If there simply aren't that many guns lying around to be stolen easily, this 92% aren't going to be able to get their hands on them.

I certainly don't have any problem with gun ownership (I think Britain totally messed up with the knee-jerk legislation after Dunblane), but I do see a problem with carrying the things around, and with storing them insecurely. A serious mugger isn't going to stand up to your face and say "give me your wallet", he's going to club you down from behind, or walk close to you and then pull a knife. Unless you're Wyatt Earp, having a gun on you isn't much help bcos you can't get it out in time to do anything, and in fact you're just likely to be shot with your own weapon when the mugger takes it from you! And storing them insecurely goes without saying, bcos if a burglar knows he can break into any house out in the country and get himself some guns, we're talking a recipe for disaster. (By insecurely I'm talking anything less than a quarter-inch of solid steel on all sides with a lock like Fort Knox - no, a chain is *not* adequate. If you can get the gun out with bolt cutters, in fact, if you can get it with anything less than a cutting torch), I'd not think that was secure enough.)

Regarding your Founding Fathers, the reason every American had rights to bear arms was bcos the militia AND police back then was every man from every house. There wasn't the concept of owning weapons for leisure use - every gun was a military weapon. These days America has an army and a police force. The reason the Founding Fathers gave people those rights is just OVER. Unless of course you want to defend *yourself* from the police and army, in which case I suggest you read up on what happened at Waco.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Bobert
Date: 05 May 04 - 07:20 PM

Ummmm, beardedbruce, I would agree that we gotta bunch of stupid gun control laws!!! What we need are some smart ones... Like shutting down most handgun manufacturers and making is a felony to own one without it having a balistic file and a registration of it's
owner. And titles, like cars, so that handguns can be traced. Yreah it might take a while to get handguns away from the thugs but it can happen. It sure can't happen with the current thinking but Einstein points out that a problem cannot be solved with the same thinking that created it...

Ahhhhh, as fir the Second Ammnedment? Just a couple of observations. Handguns were used purdy much in dueling back in them days and I very much believe that had the Founding Fathers had been able to see kids carring these state of the arm human-killers around, they would have certainly added some language. Secondly, the ammendment ia very ambigiuos in that the *subject* of the sentence is a "well regulated militia. Not carte blanche gun ownership. There is an inference that the right to bear arms is tied to the subject of this one sentence ammendment" a well regulated militia. Now, when we take the interpretation just one step further, the "regulated" part of this one sentance ammendment is, OMHO, been overlooked by the gun rights folks. Heck, regulated means regulated, doesn't it? But we dfon't hear those who just want business as usual talking about either of the points... They just drum on and on about the part of the ammendment that fits their particular views. I'm looking at the ammendment in its entirity, from the subject to the predicate to the period at the end of it...

Hey, I ain't anti-gun. I got a few. I am anti-handgun. They are responsible for the vast amjority of murders in this country and the NRA, for which I am a former member, couldn't care less...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Gareth
Date: 05 May 04 - 07:31 PM

Bobert - I concur with yer views.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 May 04 - 07:40 PM

From The Bill of Rights (1689):

That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law

At least in the US Constitution the right to bear arms wasn't limited only to Protestants!

I'd like to see that anyone who owned a handgun had to have one that was single action and gate-loaded (like the old Colt revolvers) or better yet, black powder.

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Bobert
Date: 05 May 04 - 08:09 PM

Works for me, Rap... Hey, pass a *real" law on hand-guns and give folks amnesty and a black powder handgun inreturn when they turn in their Glocks...

My first pistol was a cap and ball Colt
Shoot stright as lightnin'
But loaded a might slow
Loaded might slow
I soon found out
It'd sure get you into trouble
But couldn't get you out...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 04 - 08:20 PM

Well, if times have changed, perhaps we don't need all that freedom of religion, either... And freedom of the press DOES NOT say anything about freedom of speech- Just printing presses: SO, no limits on restrictions on the web... "The right to keep and bear arms" - the militia at that time was ALL able bodied men. So, women should have no rights, by your logic?

Yes, it would be "safer" if people had all their rights restricted: But is that what any of us want? One cannot complain that things have changged, so we need to remove rights, then complain that the government is removing one's rights. Nothing about freedom of access to libraries in the Bill of Rights...

And while we do have a police force, they are not quartered in my home. How can they protect me, my property, and my family when they are not present? It is interesting that a major anti-gun editorial writer, when confronted by an invader on his property, chose to use his ( illegal!) gun to protect himself- but I guess that is a choice that each of us has to make- principles or safety.

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Bobert
Date: 05 May 04 - 08:34 PM

Well, beardedbruce, religion ain't changed much in the last 200 or so years. Nor has freedom of speech... Unfortunately, guns have. Like way beyond the Founding Father's wildest imaginations. Way beyond...

And guess what? You're intersted in your family's security? Well, families with handguns in the home are twice as likely to have a family member shot to death with handgun... Hmmmmm?

You wanta protect yer family then do as I do, get a big ol' pop gun. i.e. Winchester 12 guage pump. Just the chambering sound will get about 90% ot the bad guys to think twice.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: dianavan
Date: 05 May 04 - 08:39 PM

I have a friend with a deep fear of rapists. She always carries a .38. She calls it the "equalizer."

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Bobert
Date: 05 May 04 - 08:46 PM

Great. Her chances of being murdered by another handgun have just doubled. Don't take no Wes Ginny Slide Rule fir this one... Ain't no equalization here. It's now 2:1 that she gets murdered. But hey, maybe not raped....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 04 - 08:54 PM

dianavan: Tell her to get rid of it! She might actually defend herself- instead of waiting for the police to show up and protect her...

Bobert:" It's now 2:1 that she gets murdered"- not quite- What was the chance she would be murdered without one? Or raped? if it was 1 in 10000, and you were right about the chances doubling, it would now be 1 in 5000, NOT 2:1. But how many people would not be killed because the attacker was scared off by the gun, and went looking for some unarmed person to kill? You need to give a source for your numbers, if you want them believed.

Sturgeon's Revelation= "90% of everything is crude" ( including the 10% left, recursively)

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Bobert
Date: 05 May 04 - 09:00 PM

Just the facts, bearded-one. Twice as many deaths from fire arms (per capita) occur in households where there is at least one handgun. Like I said, get a 12 guage pump. No rape. No being murdered, either... Hmmmm? Now don't make me send thre Wes Ginny Slide Rule over to explainerate this to ya.... Ain't rocket surgery...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 04 - 09:52 PM

"Twice as many deaths from fire arms (per capita) occur in households where there is at least one handgun. "

So, if the handgun is used in self-defense, killing the attacker, it counts towards the deaths per capita? Sounds as if the handguns are doing just what people get them for.

And rocket surgury is a lot more dangerous than handguns!

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Bobert
Date: 05 May 04 - 10:14 PM

Okay, bearded-one. This is the last time we're gonna do this exercize since the other kids seem to get it.

Now, if you own a handgun and yer chances are twice as great as someone who doesn't own one of being kilt up by one of them things, why would you want to own one?

I ain't saying that you can't have a big ol' pop-gun 'er a dog with an attitude fir yer rapist 'cuase if you do then yer chances don't go up fir getting shot by a handgun.

Now themz is the facts, beard... So you go and study 'um up real good so that when the Wes Ginny Slide Rule knocks on yer danged bearded door in the morning to give you a pop quiz, you'll be ready...

BTW, when one of these high teck 50's take down Air Force One I don't wnat to hear a danged peep out of you about how someone should have knowed these thing ain't x-actly sports rifles...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Blackcatter
Date: 05 May 04 - 10:41 PM

Did you all see Bowling for Columbine? The U.S. isn't the only country that has open laws when it concernes guns - Canada it pretty open too, but they have a tiny percentage of gun violence than us. It's our culture, not the guns themselves that are the real problem.

By the way - You can use a 30-06 to bring down a jet (if you are very lucky) but you don't need to shoot it down to shut down the U.S. aviation industry. Give me 10 guys or gals, each with a 30-06 posted at the edge of the 10 busiest airports in the U.S. Have them fire at at least 1 airliner and make sure they hit it somewhere. Then, using a throw-away phone, alert the media. The FAA will find the holes going deep into the frame and immediately shut down all flights. There's almost no way to stop this - most large airports have neighborhoods surrounding them - you'd have to secure a perimiter of several miles to stop it from happening.

And of course, if it happens - Condi will later say no one imagined that it could have ever happened.

happy day y'all!

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: DonMeixner
Date: 05 May 04 - 11:01 PM

Until now anyway

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 May 04 - 11:06 PM

Blackcatter has got it in one: it's in the culture.

Now, in what country can you find a gun in nearly every household, and sometimes more? Guns that are required to be there by law, and might be fully automatic weapons (i.e., machine guns)?

Hint: This same country shoots up several million rounds each year in nation-wide target shooting contests.

Hint: It has one of the lowest crime rates in the world.

And no, it's not Israel, although the per-capita gun ownership there is through the roof.

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 05 May 04 - 11:07 PM

Just wondering....
Was there ever a definite rubbishing of the notion that Flight 800 was shot down by a missile?

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 04 - 11:57 PM

"Now, if you own a handgun and yer chances are twice as great as someone who doesn't own one of being kilt up by one of them things, why would you want to own one?"


If that were the case, I might not- but you have not stated the case for that conclusion.


If someone who owns a handgun is twice as likely to kill an attacker as one who does not own one, why would you not want to have a handgun???

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Blackcatter
Date: 06 May 04 - 12:04 AM

Well BB - gun owners may be twice as likely to be killed by a gun, but that's still a pretty low statistical number. Especially considering that the people who own a gun and use it in the commission of a crime must skew that stats somewhat.

I personally think that many of the cheap handguns should be outlawed and of couse auto and many semi-auto guns, but little else.

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 May 04 - 12:11 AM

There is an arguement for restricting cheap, unsafe ( to the user) guns, much like unsafe cars. BUT it is easy to make a zip gun. Unless you know a way to remove the last 400 years of technology from everyone's mind, you can't make a "gun-free" environment.

Any idea of the explosive power in a gallon of gas? and how many tanks of gas are out there on the road?

Ideas are far more dangerous than firearms- but is anyone in favor of controlling them?

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 May 04 - 09:08 AM

Switzerland.

Yes, there are folks who would control ideas. Always have been.

Yes, the notion of a missile taking out Flight 800 has been squashed. There are some who still believe, but I think that they're now out on "the fringe."

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Stu
Date: 06 May 04 - 10:05 AM

You lot scare the living bejesus out of me.

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Blackcatter
Date: 06 May 04 - 01:36 PM

run!

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 May 04 - 03:49 PM

Oh, hell, I scare the livin' bejesus outa myself.

Subject: RE: BS: 50 Caliber Sniper Guns.....
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 04 - 04:02 PM

dont run, you will just die tired (big Grin)