Origins: this little piggy - history

Subject: BS: this little piggy - history
From: fogie
Date: 04 May 04 - 12:12 PM

What is the history behind nursery rhyme This little piggy went to market. Caro was wondering if it had to do with the French-English wars, what with roast beef and wee wee wee ?

Subject: Origins: this little piggy - history
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 May 04 - 01:25 PM

There's an entry in the Opies' Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes:

This little pig went to market,
This little pig stayed at home,
This little pig had roast beef,
This little pig had none,
And this little pig cried, Wee-wee-wee-wee-wee, I can't find my way home.

The first line of this infant amusement is quoted in a medley, 'The Nurse's Song', written about 1728 and included by Ramsay in the fourth volume of The Tea-Table Miscellany (1740). It is the most common toe or finger rhyme in the present day, and has been so for more than a century.

FT Thumb's LSB, C. 1760 / MG'S Melody, c. 1765, 'This Pig went to Market, That Pig staid at Home; This Pig had roast Meat, That Pig had none; This Pig went to the Barn Door, And cry'd Week, Week, for more'
Songs for the Nursery, 1805 / Vocal Harmony, c. 1806 / Nurse Lovechild's DFN, C. 1830 / Girl's Own Book, Mrs. Child, 1831 [1832] This Little Pig Went to Market, Walter Crane, 1869
N & Q, 1890, 3rd finger 'This little pig had bread and butter'; 1891, 'This little pig said, Me a bit, me a bit, me a bit, before it all be gone'
Pigling Bland, Beatrix Potter, 1913 / This Little Pig Went to Market, L. Leslie Brooke, 1922.

The Opies make no note of any political implications of this song/rhyme. It's just a finger/toe counting rhyme.

Here's "Song for Five Toes," also from Opie:

Let's go to the wood, says this pig,
What to do there? says that pig,
To look for my mother, says this pig,
What to do with her? says that pig,
Kiss her to death, says this pig.


Also take a look at this one from the same source:


This pig got in the barn, This ate all the corn,
This said he wasn't well, This said he would go and tell,
And this said—weke, weke, weke,
Can't get over the barn door sill.


Note the various interpretations of "Wee-wee-wee-wee-wee":
Weke, weke, weke
Me a bit, me a bit, me a bit
And cry'd Week, Week, for more'


I suppose there are political implications to some nursery rhymes, but I think perhaps we go to far in trying to read too much into too many of them. I think most are what they appear to be - just for fun.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Origins: this little piggy - history
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 May 04 - 01:58 PM

Don't quite understand your dates there, Joe.

'The first line of this infant amusement is quoted in a medley, 'The Nurse's Song', written about 2728 and included by Ramsay in the fourth volume of The Tea-Table Miscellany. (2740) '

Futuristic rhymes?

---

Darn scanner - can't even read a fine-print italic date right.
Corrections made.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Origins: this little piggy - history
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 May 04 - 02:22 PM

Wee wee-
The little pig obviously had bladder problems and probably bed-wetting syndrome as well- ran all the way home to keep from soiling his pants. After all, the rhyme first appeared in The Nurse's Song.

Baa, Baa, Black Sheep is another rhyme with medical connotations, about a sheep with a skin condition that prevented wool growth.

Jack and Jill espouses bed rest and the antiseptic and medical uses of vinegar- after he broke his crown-

Then up Jack got and home did trot
As fast as he could caper;
And went to bed to mend his head
With vinegar and brown paper.

Mother Goose has more to do with medicine and home remedies than wars and politics. You only have to look......

Subject: RE: Origins: this little piggy - history
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 May 04 - 02:48 PM

No, no it's all about S.E.X.
Damn nursery rhymes are the reason kids today and so preverted...
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Origins: this little piggy - history
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 May 04 - 03:23 PM

Yes, sex too-
There is the song about the Mormon wedding- three at once:

I saw three ships come sailing by,
Come sailing by, come sailing by;
I saw three ships come sailing by,
On New Year's Day in the morning.

And what do you think was in them then,
Was in them then, was in them then?
And what do you think was in them then,
On New Year's Day in the morning.

Three pretty girls were in them then,
Were in them then, were in them then;
Three pretty girls were in them then,
On New Year's Day in the morning.

And one could whistle, and one could sing,
And one could play the violin-
Such joy there was at my wedding,
On New Year's Day in the morning.

Often wondered if he survived taking care of all three on the wedding night.
Called a nursery rhyme in "Lavender's Blue" but obviously requires censorship.

Subject: RE: Origins: this little piggy - history
From: harpgirl
Date: 04 May 04 - 03:33 PM

***** used to say...

This little piggy ate a pizza
This piggy ate potato chips
This little piggy's comin' over your house
To nibble on your sweet lips!

Subject: RE: Origins: this little piggy - history
From: masato sakurai
Date: 04 May 04 - 11:00 PM

This Little Pig Went To Market / [Illustr.:] Walter Crane (London, New York : John Lane, [1895]).

Subject: RE: Origins: this little piggy - history
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 May 04 - 01:18 PM

THIS PIG WENT TO MARKET
(A song set to five fingers)

This pig went to market;
This pig staid at home;
This pig had a bit of meat;
And this pig had none;
This pig said wee, wee, wee!
I can't find my way home.

"The Nursery Rhymes of England," coll. James Orchard Halliwell. 1846, 4th edition.
Nursery Rhymes

Subject: Civil War Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 12:20 PM

Subject: RE: Origins: this little piggy - history
From: masato sakurai
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 12:55 PM

New link to Walter Crane's This Little Pig Went To Market.

Subject: RE: Origins: this little piggy - history
From: masato sakurai
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 01:03 PM

Also in Halliwell's Nursery Rhymes of England, 3rd ed. (1843; rpt. Singing Tree Press, p. 148). The same version as that quoted by Q above.

Subject: RE: Origins: this little piggy - history
From: harpgirl
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 11:27 AM

Here's one from the slave tradition:

This little piggy wants some corn
This little piggy says "Where you going to get it from?"
This little piggy says , "Out of Massa's barn."
This little pig says, "Run go tell!"
This little pig says "Twee, twee, twee, I'll tell old Mass, tell old Massa!"

Subject: RE: Origins: this little piggy - history
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 02:52 PM

Source?

Subject: RE: Origins: this little piggy - history
From: harpgirl
Date: 06 Jun 05 - 12:09 AM

oops, sorry Q!

Step It Down, Games, Plays, Songs & Stories from the Afro-American Heritage by Bessie Jones & Bess Lomax Hawes p. 9

Subject: RE: Origins: this little piggy - history
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 14 - 12:14 AM

This little piggy had corn
This little piggy said where from?
This little piggy said pawpaws barn
This little piggy said let's go get some more
This little piggy said wee wee wee can't fit under the barn door

Subject: RE: Origins: this little piggy - history
From: GUEST,Jo Roughan
Date: 15 Jul 17 - 12:57 PM

Q: apart from some citations, banter, and random re-quotes by "GUEST". All of the above did not give me any answers. I do not wish to click on the links and investigate further. Because I'm 12 years in the future from the dates of this post (the last entries). Furthermore, I'm on my smart phone and can't see Masato's pictures. What I'd like to know, does it have anything to do with farmers getting pigs ready for market, the French civil war; is it a poem that has many re-inventions (harpgirl; slavery) what is the true origin of the "poem", it's in "The Nurse's Song". You mentioned wee wee; urination, but some say "oui" and Wikipedia has the least information of all.
Is it one of those grim nursery rhymes told to children like "a tissue, a tissue, we all fall down with beubonic plague" or is it something else?

ALL I KNOW Is I woke at 3ish this morning thinking about it in reference to my current predicament and went looking on my smart phone for its origin . This site came up 3rd in google when I typed the cross reference "this little piggy and the nurse's tale" into the search bar.

Weke weke week week said the little pig. Q: not ***** it's only 4 wees not 5.

End of correspondence; stardate 49er foxtrot over .

Ttfn,
jo

PS.

Subject: RE: Origins: this little piggy - history
From: GUEST,Johnica
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 02:11 PM

What about the lyrics from a song in the late 1940's or early 50's
this is all I remember my parents singing:

"This little Piggy was a bad little Piggy
and he cried all the way home...
xxxxxxx
xxxxxxx    "my favorite poem"

Subject: RE: Origins: this little piggy - history
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 04:52 PM

It's just ever so slightly more interesting for the child than saying
'This little piggy is number one
This little piggy is number two...….

A more recent equivalent done in the hand is 'Round and round the garden, like a teddybear…...

Subject: RE: Origins: this little piggy - history
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 02:52 PM

I liked the plague/ashes ashes thing... Pity it's been debunked.