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BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!

McGrath of Harlow 27 May 04 - 12:36 PM
Two_bears 27 May 04 - 06:32 AM
GUEST 26 May 04 - 02:09 AM
GUEST 25 May 04 - 03:10 AM
Two_bears 24 May 04 - 09:49 PM
dianavan 24 May 04 - 08:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 May 04 - 05:44 PM
Two_bears 24 May 04 - 05:22 PM
Donuel 24 May 04 - 05:15 PM
Two_bears 24 May 04 - 05:13 PM
ard mhacha 24 May 04 - 05:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 May 04 - 12:07 PM
GUEST 24 May 04 - 10:05 AM
GUEST 23 May 04 - 08:54 PM
Charley Noble 23 May 04 - 08:52 PM
GUEST 23 May 04 - 08:50 PM
Two_bears 23 May 04 - 08:14 PM
artbrooks 23 May 04 - 06:33 PM
dianavan 23 May 04 - 10:01 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 May 04 - 09:01 AM
freda underhill 23 May 04 - 08:53 AM
GUEST 23 May 04 - 08:42 AM
ard mhacha 23 May 04 - 07:27 AM
Two_bears 23 May 04 - 07:22 AM
Ebbie 23 May 04 - 02:29 AM
McGrath of Harlow 22 May 04 - 04:45 PM
dianavan 22 May 04 - 03:30 PM
ard mhacha 22 May 04 - 05:39 AM
McGrath of Harlow 22 May 04 - 05:02 AM
Little Hawk 21 May 04 - 10:53 PM
dianavan 21 May 04 - 10:46 PM
Amos 21 May 04 - 10:09 PM
Donuel 21 May 04 - 09:38 PM
dianavan 21 May 04 - 07:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 May 04 - 06:49 PM
Little Hawk 21 May 04 - 03:57 PM
GUEST 21 May 04 - 01:31 PM
Two_bears 21 May 04 - 01:10 PM
Two_bears 21 May 04 - 01:05 PM
freda underhill 21 May 04 - 10:05 AM
GUEST,TIA 21 May 04 - 08:30 AM
GUEST 21 May 04 - 01:56 AM
McGrath of Harlow 20 May 04 - 09:34 PM
GUEST 20 May 04 - 06:34 PM
Two_bears 20 May 04 - 06:28 PM
Two_bears 20 May 04 - 06:20 PM
GUEST 20 May 04 - 11:37 AM
beardedbruce 20 May 04 - 11:18 AM
dianavan 20 May 04 - 10:57 AM
beardedbruce 20 May 04 - 10:41 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 12:36 PM

"Foreign fighters" isn't a phrase that exactly trips off the tongue, even in English. If the Iraqis don't refer to the occupying army as "the foreigners" (albeit in Arabic), I'd be very surprised.

"Foreign fighters" is a press release type of expression. I shouldn't think the US troops put it exactly that way either.


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 27 May 04 - 06:32 AM

I sense a little backpeddling, two bears

Not at all. I had a friend serving in Iraq (he came back to the states about 3 months ago) I do not know how the Iraqi people are reacting to the soldiers now.

Two Bears


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 04 - 02:09 AM

Two_bears
Date: 24 May 04 - 09:49 PM
"The Iraqi people do not refer to the troops as foreign fighters (or at least not until recently, if they do so now)."

I sense a little backpeddling, two bears.


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 03:10 AM

www.musarium.com/withoutsanctuary/main.html

Not so long ago in the good ole USA. Two bears should enjoy this, all that evil being stamped out by regular folks like you and me.


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 24 May 04 - 09:49 PM

I think for most Iraqis the term "foreign fighters" would mean, in the first place, the US troops and their allies.

The Iraqi people do not refer to the troups as foreign fighters (or at least not until recently if they do so now). The U.S. troups were called "the Americans". By foreign fighters; I was referring to the people coming across the border from Jordan, Iran, Syria, etc.

Two Bears


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 24 May 04 - 08:42 PM

Donuel - I totally agree with you.

I always wonder why people seem to be ignoring the obvious. I think you're right; the present U.S. administration is worse than anyone could imagine. I also think that to realize this, is to be overwhelmed by hopelessness and despair.

I go out to the garden and work hard or write or paint. You, create political cartoons. Some people sing about it. Some people play music. We all need to find a creative outlet or we will become very depressed.

Others direct their anger at the wrong people or in traffic or at the office. Some become control freaks. We live in a very complex world. Thanks to Bush, we live in a world of fear and mistrust.

Its far easier to believe everything the government tells you and to believe that the government has your best interest at heart.

...and btw, I really like your Mona Lisa. She's beautiful.


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 04 - 05:44 PM

I think for most Iraqis the term "foreign fighters" would mean, in the first place, the US troops and their allies.


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 24 May 04 - 05:22 PM

So what do we do then Two bears, kill em , let God sort em out, a bit of t-shirt philosophy maybe. Bomb em back into the stone age may sound good in a movie but it rarely works in real life, not unless you want to perpetuate the problem. Just look at Israel and the Palestinians, an endless round of tit for tat killings that achieves nothing except to show how barbaric they can both be. Is that your way ahead?

If that was the answer; I would suggest carpet bombing. It isn't the answer, and I DO NOT recommend it.

The Iraqi people are aware of which one's are foreign fighters, and could point them out to the military.

The problem is that Iraqi people have a long history of waking up dead if they reported these thugs.

Two Bears


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Donuel
Date: 24 May 04 - 05:15 PM

Guest, McGrath, you both have bought into a scenario of 9-11 which was made for TV and an intended revenge to begin this New American Century.

When a belief system is formed around such a flawed premise, your outrage may be honorable but misdirected, just as the planned Pearl Harbor event intended.

If you were fully briefed, and I mean FULLY, the issue of torture would be a tiny footnote of horrendous crimes committed by the NPAC fascists.

We are all breathing the same air. We are breathing together, and that is the dissected meaning and etiiology of the word conspiracy.
When the lie is big enough and the facts foul enough, few will ever even wish to contemplate the truth no matter how obvious it is.

As bad as you think this administration is, its worse.


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 24 May 04 - 05:13 PM

Where exactly did you receive your qualifications for these 'disciplines', and are you in charge of any children, in the course of your work?

I received those qualifications by studying with a totle of 8 Reiki masters, three Seichim masters, and one Qigong master. Do you want to drive over and see the certificates.

I am NOT in charge of any children; but I encounter lots of them in my work.

Two Bears


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 May 04 - 05:00 PM

Two Bears with you being proficient in all of those mysterious arts, maybe you could through a PM put me on to a couple of certs at the gee-gees.
Your name had me wondering for a time as to its origin, heres me thinking you were caught with your trousers down and all of the time you were a NA.


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 04 - 12:07 PM

Of course "kill 'em, let God sort 'em out" was part of the thinking behind September 11th.

And the other part, I'm certain would have been a confident expectation that the response by the USA to the provocation could be guaranteed to be such as to drive a whole lot of people into the Al Qaida camp.

The first thing to consider in any conflict is "will what I am doing strengthem my enemy?"


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 04 - 10:05 AM

Two bears,

Two bears,

Before 9/11 there were quite a few terrorists who wanted to lash out at the US, most of them were unable to do so. The World trade center and Pentegon were in the main attacked by Saudis. There was no Iraqi hijackers.

The US led invasion of Iraq has created many more terrorists, and has provided a battle ground for those non-Iraqi terrrorists who would have liked to hit the US but were unable to do so and now the heavy handed US policy is creating more.

So in trying to arrest and kill those who have decided to become "terrorists" just how many innocents is it acceptable to kill, maim or torture to get the result you desire. With each ugly act, another Iraqi may well decide that enough is enough in his country and there you have another ready made fighter that you will have to root out.

If you think you can destroy such terrorist networks then look to the British experience in Northern Ireland, they had succeses but they had many more faliures, and that in a country that shared a lot more than Iraq and the US do in term of Language and culture.

So what do we do then Two bears, kill em , let God sort em out, a bit of t-shirt philosophy maybe. Bomb em back into the stone age may sound good in a movie but it rarely works in real life, not unless you want to perpetuate the problem. Just look at Israel and the Palestinians, an endless round of tit for tat killings that achieves nothing except to show how barbaric they can both be. Is that your way ahead?

And if they do believe they are being directed by God to kill those they feel are opressing them, look again at the torture film/pictures and ask yourself how you would feel if it was your family or friends being treated so. Would you feel so full of rage you had to pick up your weapon or would your range of disciplines enable you to forgive those involved and give them all a big hug?


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 04 - 08:54 PM

Where exactly did you receive your qualifications for these 'disciplines', and are you in charge of any children, in the course of your work?


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 May 04 - 08:52 PM

An eye for an eye,
A tooth for a tooth,
Till we are all eyeless
And toothless.

The Bush administration has made it abundantly clear that it has a policy of containing international terrorism by extermination or imprisonment without adherence to international law. It is an open question how far this policy is being implemented in Iraq but clearly the wave of torture and humiliation being uncovered now reflects what has been happening in Guantanamo.

This latest atrocity in Western Iraq is probably more a misjudgment by military intelligence, assuming it really was a wedding party, than a deliberate act of homicide. However, the fact that we can inflict death and destruction by remote control, rather than face to face, doesn't raise our actions to a higher plain. They're still willing to gamble that they can exterminate the terrorists. By our actions in Iraq we have in fact recruited many more terrorists than we have been able to eliminate, and that policy is a dismal failure.

More and more people, Republicans in this country as well, agree that it's time for regime change here at home. And we'll work hard to see that this happens in November.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 04 - 08:50 PM

"THE SEVENTH FACET

This Facet works on the third eye, this symbol allows one to activate the dormant, universal ability of crystal clear seeing in all situations. A visually oriented energy, this symbol can be use whenever extraordinarily capabilities of seeing to the heart of the matters is necessary."

You are kidding us, arent you?


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 23 May 04 - 08:14 PM

Two bears, for someone who mentions forgiveness against those who wronged you in a previous thread, you strike me as a vindictive, violent and petty minded bigot. Given how the US army treated your

Nope. The terrorists that slammed the two jets into the WTC, Bombed inocent people in countries like Africa, Bali, Saudi Arabia, etc are evil, and must be stopped to protect society from them.

The only way to stop them is to arrest or kill them.

(alledgedly) people you think that you of all people might be less inclined to sanction the "at any cost" use of force. But then again it is just a bunch of Arabs half way round the world.

It was abysmal the way the military treated the First Americans. Back then the Millitary was reacting from fear and hatred.

In this case; you have terrorists that have no value for life, and can not be reasoned with.

I have made it ABUNDANTLY clear time after time; but no one gets it. I am NOT against the Arabs. I am against the terrorists that believe they are being directed by God to kill the infidel (anyone that doesn not believe as they do). It is the Wahabist moslem terrorists that are trying to hijack a peaceful religion, and use terrorism and Islam to rebuild the Ottoman empire.

Just what disciplines are you master in, Bigotry, vindictiveness, hatred, militarism, irresponsible use of force, immorality, verbal and physical abuse?

None of those you mentioned. I am a Master/Teacher or higher in five forms of Reiki (Karuna, Magnussa Phoenix. Usui Shiki, Ussui Shiki Ryoho, and Tibetan, Seichim, Seventh Facet Seichim, and Zhan Zhuang Qigong.

I recognize evil when I see it, and do what I can to stand against it.

Two Bears


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 May 04 - 06:33 PM

ard mhaca and dianavan: Bush's approval numbers continue to decline in the US. Here are current results and some historical ones for "approval of what's going on in Iraq" and similar questions. I think that it is safe to say that most Americans do not agree with him, and Mudcat is not a minority community.


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 23 May 04 - 10:01 AM

Terror is the end product of both torture and abuse. You're right, MrGrath, the conduct of the U.S. in Iraq can only be described as terrorism.


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 04 - 09:01 AM

The only way to end this war is victory over the terrorists.

And aren't the torturers, and those who give them their orders, terrorists? Victory over "the terrorists" has to include victory over the terrorists you actually have direct control over.


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 May 04 - 08:53 AM

Report Links U.S. General to Iraq Prison Abuse Case
Sun May 23, 2004 01:07 AM

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A lawyer for a soldier charged in the Abu Ghraib abuse case said a captain at the Iraqi prison has charged that Army Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez was present during some unspecified "interrogations and/or allegations of the prisoner abuse," The Washington Post reported on Sunday.
Citing a recording of a military hearing obtained by the newspaper, The Post said the military lawyer, Capt. Robert Shuck, was told that Sanchez, the highest-ranking U.S. military officer in Iraq, and other senior officials were aware of what was taking place at Abu Ghraib.

Shuck is assigned to defend Staff Sgt. Ivan Frederick, one of the seven U.S. soldiers, four men and three women, accused of abuses at the prison. One pleaded guilty on Wednesday and was imprisoned. The Post reported on Saturday that Frederick had been accused by military police officers involved in the scandal of being an organizer of the abuse.

The U.S. Congress and the Pentagon are both investigating the revelations of physical and sexual abuse of Iraqi inmates at the prison outside Baghdad that have surfaced in the past month. Details of the abuse, including graphic photos and sworn depositions, have shaken the Bush administration as it attempts turn back sovereignty to the Iraqis on June 30.

The Post on Saturday published testimony of soldiers speaking of fun and sadistic pleasure in abusing prisoners. A day earlier it published new images, including video, of Iraqis being beaten and sexually humiliated. The newspaper said Shuck made the allegation regarding Sanchez at an April 2 hearing, stating he had been told that by the company commander, Capt. Donald Reese.

"Are you saying that Captain Reese is going to testify that General Sanchez was there and saw this going on?" the military prosecutor asked, according to the transcript. "That's what he told me," Shuck said.

A Defense Department spokesman referred questions to U.S. military officials in the Middle East. The spokesman told The Post that statements by defense lawyers or their clients should be treated with "appropriate caution." The hearing was held at Camp Victory in Baghdad, the newspaper said, and that it obtained a copy of an audio recording. Shuck was quoted as saying, "Present during some of these happenings, it has come to my knowledge that Lieutenant General Sanchez was even present at the prison during some of these interrogations and/or allegations of the prisoner abuse by those duty (noncommissioned officers)."

The newspaper said Reese did not testify that day, instead invoking the military version of his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination. The Post said Reese has not been granted immunity from prosecution in exchange for his testimony. © Reuters 2004. All Rights Reserved.


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 04 - 08:42 AM

Two bears, for someone who mentions forgiveness against those who wronged you in a previous thread, you strike me as a vindictive, violent and petty minded bigot. Given how the US army treated your (alledgedly) people you think that you of all people might be less inclined to sanction the "at any cost" use of force. But then again it is just a bunch of Arabs half way round the world.

Just what disciplines are you master in, Bigotry, vindictiveness, hatred, militarism, irresponsible use of force, immorality, verbal and physical abuse?


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 23 May 04 - 07:27 AM

And the way the trigger happy torturers and murderers attached to the US government are going about it will create more and more revenge seeking citizens from the Islamic world.


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 23 May 04 - 07:22 AM

The problem is, all of us seem to have different ideas of how to stop the terrorists. Some seem to think that we should give them what they ask for, some that we should kill them all. One has to look at the consequences of one's opinions if one is incorrect: If I give them what they want, and they kill me (and my children, and your children...) anyway, how much better off am I?

Bearded Bruce; you are soooooooo right on this issue.

If we give them what they want; it a sign of weakness, and they will be even more determined to destroy the free world.

The only way to end this war is victory over the terrorists.


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 May 04 - 02:29 AM

Lately I've been wondering: If the bush's (the other day I saw a sign: Defoliate Bush!) approval rating continues to drop, say to 30 %, what will happen to the election? My guess is that some other Republican would run for President in opposition to him. It isn't common but it has happened fairly frequently that a political party didn't support the incumbent President.

And YES, ard mhacha, there are many Americans who despise the current president and loathe what has happened to this country under him. In Juneau, Alaska, which is considered quite liberal, I know fewer than a handful of people who trust and support this administration. (It's gotten to the place where most of us just don't discuss it with them. But they overhear us talk, and they sit here while the songwriters amongst us sing their biting lyrics. So there is hope!)

Parts of the rest of Alaska is predominately conservative; I think it has to do with some loners and misfits from down south believing in the mystique of "going to Alaska where a MAN can do what he wants." As a result, Alaska has elected some very strange officials.

Judging from the Mudcatters represented on this forum and who are scattered all across this country, there are a lot of sane people down there. I just hope that those Americans who still don't see it will have the blinders torn from their eyes in time.

Here's my political wish: John McCain to change parties and join Kerry. McCain, I believe, is disbelieving and disgusted, even distraught at some Republicans' reactions to the atrocities that are coming to light.


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 May 04 - 04:45 PM

I see Bush is still scheduled to visit Ireland in a few weeks. That could be interesting. Pressure grows to cancel Bush visit


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 22 May 04 - 03:30 PM

A comment I heard last night (in Vancouver) about the U.S., "I don't know anyone who agrees with the U.S."

I know that is very general but yes, the perception here seems to be that the actions of the U.S. government reflect the wishes of their people.

Thank goodness I discovered Mudcat and found that many do not agree with the actions of the U.S. govt.


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 May 04 - 05:39 AM

My US cousins cannot believe the amount of hatred they heard directed at the US in the south of Ireland,I told them they won`t be receiving any consolation in the north.
When questioned about the attitude of the US citizens to the occupation [they tried to correct me and use war instead] they thought on the whole the people of the US thought that Bush and co were doing a good job.
So there you have it, now we know who are the most naive people on earth,can someone in the US please tell me they are AT LEAST 90% WRONG.

What we are seeing on our TV screens is almost beyond words, what type of country would try to defend such evil, after all this interrogation technice was scantioned by Rumsfeld, GOD HELP THE USA.


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 May 04 - 05:02 AM

The "evidence" presented that this was a military camp appears to have consisted of there being some guns (in a country where guns are as common as in the USA), some money (about $800 or so), some passports (at a wedding where family members from both sudes of the border with Syria a few miles away would be present) and a satellite mobile phone (in a part of the world where that's the only kind of phone that works). And the suggestion that the idea of a wedding being held in a small village away from a town is highly suspicious.

In other words, nothing at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 04 - 10:53 PM

There are plenty of people who would love to do just that, Dianavan, but it's difficult to issue ultimatums to those who are loaded to the gills with the World's largest arsenal of WMD's. They tend to either ignore you or else blow you up.


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 21 May 04 - 10:46 PM

Amos - If the U.S. doesn't pull out soon, the U.N. might have to force them out. There is such a thing as war crimes and indiscriminate slaughter of civilians. I am so sorry that Bush and his buddies have disgraced the U.S. I wish someone would have the balls to place an ultimatum on the U.S. Maybe the world should impose sanctions or confiscate the bank accounts of Bush Inc. to help re-build Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Amos
Date: 21 May 04 - 10:09 PM

This is unbearable; as much because of the uncertainty. Surely even at night, the difference between armed insurgency and a houseparty is obvious? How could two such contradictory stories be told about the same event???

The Chinooks often carry video-cameras in their noses -- don't they show evidence that one or the other is true? Where's the intell that indicates this was a hot enemy site rather than the domestic village portrayed by the Guardian? These two stories are totally incompatible. Somebody's lying through their teeth, and I would like to know what the hell is going on.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Donuel
Date: 21 May 04 - 09:38 PM

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/bushrumaward.jpg


http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/prisoncrap.jpg


Besides changing the words torture and murder to abuse and accident, the neopranksters are sahping the debate in terms of:

How much torture is too much torture?

its a short step to - how much holocaust is too much holocaust?


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 21 May 04 - 07:30 PM

It seems the U.S. is acting on very unreliable intelligence. Seems that mistakes are happening over and over again. Seems their new methods of attaining that 'intelligence' are flawed. Maybe if they stopped obtaining statements from torture victims, this would change.

Evidence of WMD? I wonder how they obtained that information? Probably in Afghanistan. Torture victims will say anything to make the torture stop.


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 May 04 - 06:49 PM

Isn't it traditional in America to fire off guns in the air sometimes as a way of celebrating? Or is that just in old time westerns?

No Americans with even a scratch, Nobody taken prisoner, even though it appears that there were troops on the ground as well, who came in shooting after the helicopters had done their stuff.

Here is an account of what happened in the wedding at Ramadi, from a reporter on thne ground, carried in today's Guardian: 'US soldiers started to shoot us, one by one' -
Survivors describe wedding massacre as generals refuse to apologise


And here is a bit about the groom's sister-in-law, Mrs Shihab, who lost two young sons in the massacre:

She lay there and a second round hit her on the right arm. By then her two boys lay dead. "I left them because they were dead," she said. One, she saw, had been decapitated by a shell.

"I fell into the mud and an American soldier came and kicked me. I pretended to be dead so he wouldn't kill me. My youngest child was alive next to me."


Somneone mentioned what hapened to Native Americans a few posts back. This sounds like it fits in chillingly with that record.


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 04 - 03:57 PM

It has been traditional in the Arab world to fire off guns into the air at weddings and indeed all outdoor celebrations ever since there have been guns in that part of the World. That doesn't mean it's a wise thing to do when you're in a war zone with nervous American soldiers flying around in helicopters, of course, but it's still going to happen. Occupying armies frequently shoot at the wrong people. It's generally hazardous to occupy foreign lands...both for the occupying forces and for the locals. That's one of the reasons I generally argue against invading people...specially when it's done on an extremely flimsly or a totally false pretext, as it was in the case of this war on Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 04 - 01:31 PM

So Two bears, it bad when Native Americans were repressed and treated harshly but ok for a bunch of Arabs half way round the world. I'm sure your people weren't happy to have other peoples standards rammed down their throat at gun point, why should others have to take it.


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 21 May 04 - 01:10 PM

Don't mean to be a pisser about this Two Bears, but this is exactly how innumerable falsehoods have snuck into our collective recollection of the Iraq invasion - something is trumpeted on page 1, then quietly retracted a week or two later on page 8 or

Then we will have to agree to disagree. The announcer I heard on WLAC 1510 AM out of Nashville, TN CLEARLY started tat a test HAD confirmed the presence of Sarin.

Two Bears


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 21 May 04 - 01:05 PM

It is their custom, Two Bears.

Just because it is their custom; does not mean it is a good idea.

Quite a lot of the problem is that we dont respect their customs
Remember what we did to the native Americans


The Americans as a whole has worked VERY hard in the Muslim world to be a good neighbor. which means No tobacco, Alcohol, pron magazines, even going so far as to keep women to the base, and not allowing them to drive a car, etc.

I am not sure if the U.S. did attack the wedding party; but if I were flying a helicopter or plane, and someone was firing at me from the ground; I would return fire (whether they had intended to shoot at me or not).

This was a WAR ZONE, and I do not blame soldiers for taking steps to protecting themself.

The Iraqi people KNEW that firing a gun in that matter was ALREADY prohibited.

I am waiting until they find out what really happened.

Two Bears


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 May 04 - 10:05 AM

It is torture. I was trained by the Australian Government to do assessments under the Convention Against Torture (CAT). It's torture.

Freda


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 21 May 04 - 08:30 AM

As of today, 05/21/04, 8:22 AM, there is no news report anywhere to be found that says that sarin has been confirmed. The last official quote (from Donald Rumsfeld on May 17) says that the declaration of sarin was made based on an unreliable field test. I'm not saying it absolutley won't be sarin, but it is entirely incorrect to say that sarin has been confirmed. if anyone has a link to a report stating that it has been confirmed in the laboratory, I will happily stand corrected.

Don't mean to be a pisser about this Two Bears, but this is exactly how innumerable falsehoods have snuck into our collective recollection of the Iraq invasion - something is trumpeted on page 1, then quietly retracted a week or two later on page 8 or greater (if at all). Remember the poll that showed that regular Fox News viewers believed demonstrable falsehoods at a rate something like three times the rest of the population? Let's not walk away from this little event recalling that sarin has been confirmed until (unless) it actually has.


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 04 - 01:56 AM

When this first started being reported most English langauge news channels that I have been able to see made reports of "torture" by these guards, however, channels like CNBC, CNN and Fox that I saw, kept mentioning something called "physical coercion". Trying to sanitise it for the home audience possibly, because Americans don't torture do they?


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:34 PM

The business of the torture of people in the custody of America, and the indications that this wasn't just a bunch of sick lowlifes, but that they were doing what was expected of them by some very senior people, seems to have been successfully drifted off stage in this thread, by important stuff that would be better dealt with in a separate thread.

The latest pictures of happy smiling guards giving the thumbs up over the body of a young man who has died under interrogation ought to be on the front pages of all American papers tomorrow. I somehow suspect they won't be.

Here is one of them - and isn't it a lovely smile? No sign of any embarrassment or awkwardness. An all-American girl indeed. And then you look down the photo to why she's smiling so radiantly...

Its been stuck next to a press account of what happened when the US gunships turned up at that wedding party.

The US army spokesman really does have a great way of putting his foot in his mouth: "This operation is not something that fell out of the sky". Except that is exactly what happened - an example of what happens when, in order to minimise risks to military personnel, any effort to minimise the risk to innocent people on the ground is totally disregarded.


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 06:34 PM

It is their custom, Two Bears.

Quite a lot of the problem is that we dont respect their customs
Remember what we did to the native Americans


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 20 May 04 - 06:28 PM

On the TV yesterday, Bush talks about Israel taking more effort to protect innocent lives just after his gunships wipe out 10 members of an innocent wedding party, pot, kettle, black?

1. It has been illegal for Iraqi people to shoot guns willy nilly in the air.

2. What kind of nitwit starts firing weapons in a war zone?

3. Who takes AK47s to a wedding?

Two Bears


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 20 May 04 - 06:20 PM

As of today, May 19, 2004, 5:51 EST, the results of any more accurate (than the false-positive-prone) field screening of the supposedly sarin-armed IED have not been publicly reported. So, it is still to early to say it has been "confirmed".

I heard a news report on WLAC 1510 AM where the Broadcaster stated categoricaly that another test HAD been performed and it confirmed Sarin before I wrote the message.

Two Bears


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 11:37 AM

The US prison guards in the photo's looked pretty happy to me, the ones leering over the corpse of their former inmate seemed to be having more fun than if it was a day out at NACAR.

So if we have to suffer or live in fear then so do they, is that your angle? I also consider myself Human and as such I try to cultivate human qualities such as compassion and understanding rather than hatred,vindictiveness and vengence.

Quote "The Muslim community, as a group, has been threatening to exterminate the Jews, since at least 1948 ( see their own statements) If what they say is not to be taken seriously, why should we believe it when they say they will allow us to live, as long as we go away? If they were lying in the past, would YOU trust them???" so your solution is what exactly? do whatever is required no matter how bloody or repugnant. Come on lets have some more of your tenuous logic please.


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 04 - 11:18 AM

Yes, some of the shell casings might have- but I conceded that we had used DU projectiles.

In your opinion, might any of the individuals killing civilians be enjoying hurting innocent people?


And on which side is this more likely?


Just because you're paranoid dosen't mean they are out to get you.

The Muslim community, as a group, has been threatening to exterminate the Jews, since at least 1948 ( see their own statements) If what they say is not to be taken seriously, why should we believe it when they say they will allow us to live, as long as we go away? If they were lying in the past, would YOU trust them???


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 20 May 04 - 10:57 AM

beardedbruce - I am trying to follow your logic but I am still confused. Will you please answer Clint's question,

"Well then, in your opinion, might any of those shell casings have contained projectiles with a core of depleted uranium which were then fired in battle? "

I, too, endured the air raid drills as a child. Isn't that a bit like comparing apples to oranges?


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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 04 - 10:41 AM

Guest: I am of the human race- what are you?


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