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BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: GUEST Date: 20 May 04 - 10:34 AM Oh you're Jewish, that makes it all right then, sorry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: beardedbruce Date: 20 May 04 - 10:34 AM sorry, dianavan- crossposted... the question he asked was "And the last time an Iraqi bombed a wedding you were attending was? " I have no idea where it came from the previous posts were Bruce : "The BEST way to force this country into a dictatorship is to have an outside threat that cannot be reasoned with, cannot be stopped, and continues regardless of what we do" Guest : Bet a lot of Iraqi citizens feel the coalition forces already fulfill that role quite well. Bruce : Ok. So it is ok for the Iraqis to feel that way, but not for me??? Either I am wrong, in which case, so are the Iraqis, or they are right , in which case so am I. You have conceded the point to me. the first quote was from the posting to you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: beardedbruce Date: 20 May 04 - 10:28 AM "I deplore the bombing of a wedding as senseless, you say its justified on the grounds that something equally horrible happened in Israel. " Read my posts- I NEVER said it was justified. I said that the feelings of the Iraqis, if justified, meant that my feelings were justified. "Bet a lot of Iraqi citizens feel the coalition forces already fulfill that role quite well. " was what I was commenting on. "Maybe you should see about a job in one of those prisons looking after Iraqi prisoners, you might be able to do things that make you feel better and I bet you would be able to justify it. " No, I shall leave that to you, so you can sort out the Jews and let them be abused, and let all the Muslims go, since that seems your goal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: dianavan Date: 20 May 04 - 10:17 AM beardedbruce - I can't seem to follow your argument. Maybe if you answered Clint's question, I would be able to understand your reasoning. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: GUEST Date: 20 May 04 - 10:07 AM I deplore the bombing of a wedding as senseless, you say its justified on the grounds that something equally horrible happened in Israel. Maybe you should see about a job in one of those prisons looking after Iraqi prisoners, you might be able to do things that make you feel better and I bet you would be able to justify it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: beardedbruce Date: 20 May 04 - 09:51 AM No, it makes YOU as bad as they are, supporting the murder of ANY innocent children. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: GUEST Date: 20 May 04 - 09:44 AM Makes you as bad as they are, justify anything can't you! |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: beardedbruce Date: 20 May 04 - 09:32 AM see my posting to carolc about bombimgs, in the Arafat thread. The Muslims claim to be all one gorup, in attacking everything that Israel does: I claim that an attack on a children's birthday party in Israel, because they are in Israel, is an attack on me and mine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: GUEST Date: 20 May 04 - 09:28 AM And the last time an Iraqi bombed a wedding you were attending was? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: beardedbruce Date: 20 May 04 - 09:19 AM Ok. So it is ok for the Iraqis to feel that way, but not for me??? Either I am wrong, in which case, so are the Iraqis, or they are right , in which case so am I. You have conceded the point to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: GUEST Date: 20 May 04 - 09:12 AM "The BEST way to force this country into a dictatorship is to have an outside threat that cannot be reasoned with, cannot be stopped, and continues regardless of what we do" Bet a lot of Iraqi citizens feel the coalition forces already fulfill that role quite well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: beardedbruce Date: 20 May 04 - 08:54 AM dianavan: "I am astounded that beardedbruce (or anyone else for that matter) attempts to equate empty shell casings and one incident of sarin with stockpiles of WMD." The empty shell casings were US. The stockpile of empty WARHEADS were Iraqi. "1. Saddam is no longer 'in charge' of Iraq. Blame those who are there to liberate and restore order. In other words, that was then and this is now. It is no longer Saddam's responsibility." The warheads were found during the combat phase: They are examples of the weapons that the Iraqis had avaiable. "2. Anyone can make sarin." True- so the empty warheads were significant. "3. Shell casings can be make to contain whatever ..." Yes, BUT warheads for chemical weapons are different than ones for DP or HE. Shell casings are the containers that hold the powder used to propel the warhead. "4. How many people have been killed in Iraq by weapons since the invasion of Iraq?" By weapons? " "1. An instrument of offensive of defensive combat; something to fight with; anything used, or designed to be used, in destroying, defeating, or injuring an enemy, as a gun, a sword, etc." "I mean, cmon, if my child is killed; do I really care if its from a WMD or a bullet or a bomb? " Nope. So when someone threatens you with such a killing, why do you not want to take steps to protect yourself? "I'll say this much for Bush: he has definitely succeeded in scaring beardedbruce out of his wits" No again- it is the terrorists who have attacked us, those who support them, and those who make excuses for them that scare me out of my wits. I grew up during the Cold war- we had drills where we would hide beneath our desks at school, in case of attack. I have faced the fact that the policy of the United States, of MAD, merely means that when I would be killed, a lot of the enemy would, as well. And the whole principle was based on the idea that the other side would value their own lives. In the present situation, while we still have the same deterrence, the other side seems willing to suffer far more than the damage they inflict- this is counter-survival, but it is deadly to us. The BEST way to force this country into a dictatorship is to have an outside threat that cannot be reasoned with, cannot be stopped, and continues regardless of what we do- this allows a would-be dictator to assume vast "temporay" powers that threaten our way of life. The problem is, all of us seem to have different ideas of how to stop the terrorists. Some seem to think that we should give them what they ask for, some that we should kill them all. One has to look at the consequences of one's opinions if one is incorrect: If I give them what they want, and they kill me (and my children, and your children...) anyway, how much better off am I? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: GUEST,TIA Date: 20 May 04 - 07:53 AM 42 to 45. 8 children, 10 women (from my local morning paper). |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: GUEST,#3 Date: 20 May 04 - 02:42 AM 40 members of an innocent wedding party |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: GUEST Date: 20 May 04 - 02:02 AM On the TV yesterday, Bush talks about Israel taking more effort to protect innocent lives just after his gunships wipe out 10 members of an innocent wedding party, pot, kettle, black? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: dianavan Date: 19 May 04 - 11:26 PM Thank goodness for your sanity, Clint. I am astounded that beardedbruce (or anyone else for that matter) attempts to equate empty shell casings and one incident of sarin with stockpiles of WMD. 1. Saddam is no longer 'in charge' of Iraq. Blame those who are there to liberate and restore order. In other words, that was then and this is now. It is no longer Saddam's responsibility. 2. Anyone can make sarin. 3. Shell casings can be make to contain whatever ... 4. How many people have been killed in Iraq by weapons since the invasion of Iraq? I mean, cmon, if my child is killed; do I really care if its from a WMD or a bullet or a bomb? I'll say this much for Bush: he has definitely succeeded in scaring beardedbruce out of his wits. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 19 May 04 - 08:29 PM Well then, in your opinion, might any of those shell casings have contained projectiles with a core of depleted uranium which were then fired in battle? clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: beardedbruce Date: 19 May 04 - 08:23 PM I can't- I did not ever say that it was "quaint" |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 19 May 04 - 08:21 PM --but I hear that the Geneva Convention is "quaint" nowadays. Please explain. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: beardedbruce Date: 19 May 04 - 08:21 PM BUT not all shell casings have DP- we use a number of different types of ammunition, and the type is indicated by the color or banding on the projectile end. The article was saying that there were piles of shell casings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 19 May 04 - 08:16 PM "what about it? "Spent shell casings - the shell casing has no DP, the projectile has a core of it." Where you find a shell casing on a battlefield there is likely a projectile somewhere about. Armies seldom go to battle with empty shells. You're nitpicking. You know perfectly well what the author of that article was talking about. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: Jim McCallan Date: 19 May 04 - 08:08 PM The same one.... Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: beardedbruce Date: 19 May 04 - 08:05 PM Yes- You know, the one that prohibits putting military HQ and supplies into schools, hospitals and mosques, and using ambulances to transport military suplies and fighters? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: Jim McCallan Date: 19 May 04 - 07:56 PM Ahhhhh, The Geneva Convention..... Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: beardedbruce Date: 19 May 04 - 07:41 PM what about it? Spent shell casings - the shell casing has no DP, the projectile has a core of it. If the next Geneva Convention decides to ban DP, so be it. But for now, they are a little more effective than carpet bombing or nuclear weapons to destroy armour and fortified positions. And a lot more precise. Depleted Uranium- the radiation level of my old watches is much higher- But I agree they may represent a long-term health risk. Not as much as enriched uranium in "devices", though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: Jim McCallan Date: 19 May 04 - 07:28 PM What about Depleted Uranium? Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 19 May 04 - 06:49 PM What I was trying to say is there's a flaw in the concept "Weapons of mass destruction." According to Our Leaders (& some posters) one malfunctioning sarin shell is a WMD; carpet bombing is not. Don't see much logic in that. Which would cause massive destruction in your town & which minor destruction? clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: GUEST,TIA Date: 19 May 04 - 05:56 PM Two Bears says- "I am VERY well aware of false positives. I confronted false positives every day when I worked in the field of Computer Anti-Virus research. I did not say anything the day the device was found, and the positive field test was reported. When I wrote the message; another more accurate test HAD been performed, and CONFIRMED the device DID contain Sarin." As of today, May 19, 2004, 5:51 EST, the results of any more accurate (than the false-positive-prone) field screening of the supposedly sarin-armed IED have not been publicly reported. So, it is still to early to say it has been "confirmed". |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: Two_bears Date: 19 May 04 - 03:38 PM Ah, but early on in the war, a STOCKPILE of empty shells for chemical weapons ( WMDs) was found, and all the anti-war folks said that that did not count, since there were no chemicals in them. Now we have the chemicals, and the line is that anyone could have made them. You are absolutely correct Bruce! the shells are NOT filled with the chemicals UNTIL they are ready to be used. The reason for this is that they could go off and kill their own people. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: beardedbruce Date: 19 May 04 - 10:46 AM Ah, but early on in the war, a STOCKPILE of empty shells for chemical weapons ( WMDs) was found, and all the anti-war folks said that that did not count, since there were no chemicals in them. Now we have the chemicals, and the line is that anyone could have made them. Seems like a flaw in the logic, somehwere. If the hardware is not the weapon, and the chemicals are not the weapon, what is? But this thread is drifting. NOTE that the first CONVICTION of a US soldier has happened- WHERE are the fatwahs by the Islamic clergy denouncing the acts of their people???? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: GUEST,Sledge Date: 19 May 04 - 10:41 AM Not really, if it was a half baked home made effort as appears to be the case that hardly justifies any sort of "we found WMD" hoohar. After all if a Guy in Spokane can do it with a pile of beans and a kitchen, then so can someone in Iraq with a pile of beans and a Kitchen. And it needn't be any sort of special artillery shell, any casing would suit, the cruder the better. Sledge |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: Two_bears Date: 19 May 04 - 09:57 AM Thats weapons of minor irritation! The fact that the device did not function properly does NOT negate the fact that it WAS a WMD that was not supposed to exist. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: Two_bears Date: 19 May 04 - 09:54 AM The unmarked shell contained two inert chemicals meant to be mixed together when fired from a cannon. As an improvised explosive device, Kimmitt said, the weapon was "ineffective," and he said he doubted whoever had rigged it even knew it contained the potentially lethal chemicals. Sarin is a WMD. the fact that the chemicals did not mix properly to kill hundreds or thousands does not mean it was not a WMD. No stocks of banned weapons have turned up since the U.S. invasion. Not yet; but Iraq was not suppoed to have ANY WMDs. So the fact that ONE has been found destroys the Iraqi claims that they did not have ANY WMDs. Iraq is about the size of California, and the troups can not dig up every square inch of the land. Hussein was gound in a 1 meter sized spider hole. weaponized Anthrax to fill a 5 pound bag of sugar would be enough to kill millions if it was released in populated cities like New York or Chicago. How many 5 pound bags of sugar could you hide in the state of California? A Pentagon official told CNN that a single field test indicated the shell contained sarin and that a more definitive laboratory test had not been conducted. Initial field tests are often incorrect. I am VERY well aware of false positives. I confronted false positives every day when I worked in the field of Computer Anti-Virus research. I did not say anything the day the device was found, and the positive field test was reported. When I wrote the message; another more accurate test HAD been performed, and CONFIRMED the device DID contain Sarin. CNN military analyst Ken Robinson noted that more than 15,000 "false positives" for chemical weapons were registered during the first Gulf war." That is true, and that is why I WAITED until the more accurate tests were performed that CONFIRMED Sarin. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 May 04 - 06:56 AM Another indication, from today's Guardian, that this kind of thing was a lot more widespread and authorised than they are trying to make out Now Reuters reveal three journalists abused in Iraq. (You need to register to get to this part of the paper.) And here's a story about how the former commander of Guantanamo Bay, General Baccus was sacked because he tried to stop illegal abuse of prisoners General's sacking cleared way for Pentagon to rewrite rules. With Gen Baccus out of the way the command of Guantanamo Bay was given to Gen Miller, who is now in command of this kind of thing in Iraq: ...Gen Miller was appointed commander. Under his watch, Guantánamo instituted a "72-point matrix for stress and duress", which the Washington Post said set out a guide for the levels of force that could be applied to detainees. These included hooding or keeping prisoners naked for more than 30 days, threatening by dogs, shackling detainees in positions designed to cause pain, and extreme temperatures. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: Metchosin Date: 19 May 04 - 01:36 AM I wonder if putting an arachnophobe in a confined space with a tarantula would be considered abuse or torture? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 18 May 04 - 07:21 PM One malfunctioning shell doesn't make much of a WMD. The Spokane Spokesman-Review says, "While the finding of (this shell) is notable it would take an arsenal of such shells to pose a meaningful military threat, arms policy experts said." I recall a few months back someone in Spokane was accused of intending to poison his wife with the sarin he had made in his kitchen. I don't now how the trial turned out, but there was a fully functioning facility for manufacturing a WMD right here in River City. And the raw material: castor beans. Don't wait for the UN; send the troops into Spokane now. Shock and awe, by God. Or shuck & jive, whichever. But I don't think we ought to torture the guy that made it; just abuse him for a while. Leash & banana, like that. Before we convict him. And anyone else that don't look right. Or we could go after Osama & maybe Kenny-boy Lay. Unless of course we have some of those well-known Other Priorities. clint Sorry, but I get really fed up every now & then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: Raptor Date: 18 May 04 - 07:04 PM Thats weapons of minor irritation! Raptor |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: GUEST,TIA Date: 18 May 04 - 05:41 PM From CNN 5/18/04: "Chemicals in artillery shell tested The Iraq Survey Group was conducting tests on an artillery shell believed to have been loaded with the chemicals needed to create the nerve agent sarin. The 155 mm artillery shell exploded Monday before it could be disarmed. It had been found Saturday near the Baghdad airport. Kimmitt said U.S. troops who found the device showed "minor traces of exposure" to sarin, but they were quickly treated and released. The unmarked shell contained two inert chemicals meant to be mixed together when fired from a cannon. As an improvised explosive device, Kimmitt said, the weapon was "ineffective," and he said he doubted whoever had rigged it even knew it contained the potentially lethal chemicals. No stocks of banned weapons have turned up since the U.S. invasion. A Pentagon official told CNN that a single field test indicated the shell contained sarin and that a more definitive laboratory test had not been conducted. Initial field tests are often incorrect. CNN military analyst Ken Robinson noted that more than 15,000 "false positives" for chemical weapons were registered during the first Gulf war." Let's wait and see Brother Two Bears.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: Two_bears Date: 18 May 04 - 04:24 PM Does that not make them Subhuman too? Aloha nui loa Raptor; ny brother. There are reports of the CIA killing Muslims, and in my opinion the ones that kill the Muslims are inhuman too. Racism is hard to admit! I will not admit to racism where none exists. I would like to remind everyone that a shell filled with Sarin was exploded yesterday in Iraq and two U.S, Troups was affected. I did not report this yesterday. I wanted to wait for positive identication was made. I have been told for about a year "There are no WMDs in Iraq" Well Sarin (SP) is a WMD, and i was found in Iraq. Hmmmmm. I am waiting for the conspiracy theories to explain real WMDs poping up were NONE were supposed to exist. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: Raptor Date: 17 May 04 - 07:36 AM Racism is hard to admit! But without it there would be a lot less war! Raptor |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: Raptor Date: 17 May 04 - 07:32 AM Two Bears you don't think the Americans are torturing any prisoners? Does that not make them Subhuman too? Bush executed hundreds of prisoners while he was govener of texas so he's subhuman! Or is it subhuman to do it in the open in front of cameras to make a point as apposed to in the confines of a prison in guantonamo or Texass? Raptor |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: Two_bears Date: 16 May 04 - 09:29 AM Sorry Raptor; my brother; but what label would you apply to people that hack off a man's head while he is conscious, It takes them more than 20 seconds to do it, and the victom screams NINE TIMES. They did not want a quick death, they wanted the poor man to undergo horrendous torture before he actually expired. I will stand by my statements they are inhuman or subhuman. We will just have to agree to disagree on this issue. I can't hate my Father in law because he was in the hitler youth. He didn't know better. He was taught from infancy on to trust the powers that be! Of course you can not hate you father-in-law. He did not really have a choice. I do not have a problem with 98% of the world's Muslims. I do have problems with the Muslim terrorists that are trying to hijack the religion of Islam. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: Raptor Date: 16 May 04 - 08:20 AM The amount of rasism on this thread makes me sick! Labling people as inhuman, subhuman, whatever, because they were born into a religion they think is the best and follow what they were brought up thinking is the way to deal with people they are comvinced are "evil" themselves. The Muslims believe George Bush And his Troops of "mindless followers" are evil subhuman monstars who should Die! I can't hate my Father in law because he was in the hitler youth. He didn't know better. He was taught from infancy on to trust the powers that be! Raptor |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: Jim McCallan Date: 16 May 04 - 02:25 AM Nah Two_bears, you don't get it my brother. If you add up all the reasons the administration has advanced for going after Saddam, the only thing left to say is "Damn right, we need to take out Pervez Musharraf right now!" Musharraf has destroyed democracy in his country, he's backing terrorists in India.... our democratic ally. His CIA was hand-in-bloody-glove with Al Qaeda, his military is riddled with militant Islamists, his madrasas teach hatred of the West, his heroes are Napoleon and Hitler, and he not only has nukes... he's threatened to use them. Just shades of grey, Two_Bears. Shades of grey.......... Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: Two_bears Date: 16 May 04 - 02:15 AM Sadamm Hussein used to do that, Two_bears. Is the sky blue in your world? 1. Saddam Hussein paid $25,000 to the families of Palestinian homicide bombers. 2. Saddam Hussein allowed an Al Qaeda terrorist training camp to operate in Iraq. 3. Saddam Hussein permitted Palestinian terrorists to train in Iraq. You simply do not get it. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: Metchosin Date: 16 May 04 - 02:08 AM Interesting in retrospect, that one of the more common quips amongst the Iraqis on the streets of Baghdad, after the Americans rolled in was, "Out goes the apprentice, In comes the master". |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: Jim McCallan Date: 16 May 04 - 01:32 AM Sadamm Hussein used to do that, Two_bears. Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: Two_bears Date: 16 May 04 - 01:18 AM Diana; There is another solution; so the religion of Islam to stand up and arrest or kill the terrorists that act in the name of the Islam religion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: Two_bears Date: 16 May 04 - 01:01 AM As long as we view this conflict as primarily religious, there will be no solution. The public perception of Bush, the crusader against Muslim's who want to erradicate the infidels is a situation where nobody wins and thousands of innocents will die. This is not a war of "Christianity" against Islam. This is a war of Muslim Terrorists against the rest of the world. 9/11 was an act of war on America and the rest of the civilized world, by murderous thugs There IS a solution. Arrest or kill the Muslim terrorists that are trying to hijack the religion of Islam! Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!! From: Two_bears Date: 16 May 04 - 12:56 AM Similar problem with the "christians" in the current U.S. administration (and their supporters) who believe it is acceptable to kill anyone that doesn't agree with THEM. Extremists of ANY faith are dangerous. I remember Pat Robertson (if I am not mistaken) said about 4-5 years ago that people that saw UFOs should be stoned. There have been some "Christian" fundamentalists that have killed abortionists. Those nut cases should be charged, tried, and convicted (if they did it) I am pro life, and abortion and expecially partial birth abortion makes me ill. However; Abortion is legal, and people that break the law should be punished. All I can do is protest against abortion, and educate others in hopes they will see how evil to murder an unborn child that COULD be born as a premie, and adopted. Are there times I would accept abortions? yes. 1. rape 2. incest But only in the first trimester. 3. If the mother's life or health was at risk. after receiving a second opinion. No ONE doctor should be given the authority to decide if an unborn child lives or dies. When the "Christian" extremists start killing people; I will be in favor of sending them to prison or killing them too. The Muslim Terrorists are murderous thugs that have NO respect for life. That have already killed more than 3000 Americans on 9/11. Muslim terrorists have killed hundreds of thousands or millions of human beings around the world in America, Africa, Israel, Bali, and many more! Two Bears |
