BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?

Subject: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 06 May 04 - 12:42 AM

I'll probably post in more detail later, but, "Bush is "not satisfied" and "not happy" with the way Rumsfeld informed him about the investigation into abuses by U.S. soldiers at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison or the quantity of information Rumsfeld provided, a senior White House official said.", Full story here, and that "Secretary of State Colin Powell is exhausted, frustrated, and bitter, uncomfortable with President George W. Bush's agenda, and fatigued from his battles with the Pentagon" ....PR Newswire.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 May 04 - 01:15 AM

Interesting article.

In a word: YES

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 06 May 04 - 01:24 AM

The Washington Post article, may be subscriber-only... Here! is a similar one from USA Today.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Amos
Date: 06 May 04 - 01:46 AM

The faster the better. And he should persuade Wolfowitz, Rice, Ashcroft and Cheney to come with him and start a consciousness-raising seminar company.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 06 May 04 - 05:12 AM

An honourable exit for Donald--a stroll into Saddam's cell with a bomb-belt strapped around his waist.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 May 04 - 09:37 AM

Yes

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 May 04 - 01:38 PM

Yes.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 06 May 04 - 01:38 PM

Hell, he should be tortured, excuse me - abused.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 May 04 - 02:06 PM

Well he should. But then so should the man who picked him in the first place, and he isn't going to.

The normal way to deal with this kind of situation is promote the man in question.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Amos
Date: 06 May 04 - 02:19 PM

ANd of course, the question turns on the issue of who would be likely to replace him. I think all th ebums should be thrown out for degrading the office of their various titles, sullying the name of the nastion, murder premeditated with blunt instruments, and gawd knows what else.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 06 May 04 - 02:20 PM

Well if a week is a long time in politics, seven months must seem like an eternity.

Perhaps it is just wishful thinking, but I actually think it might come to pass.
If it does, I think it could damage Bush's re-election campaign irreparably.
We're not looking at a 'disgruntled former official', here, so his 'credibility' cannot be called into question so easily by the Bush PR machine.
The whole affair must alarm even the staunchist Republican supporter, what with all this talk of a new era, as regards the sharing of Intelligence.

Either way he's toast, as far as a team player is concerned.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 06 May 04 - 02:32 PM

Given the amount of turnover in this administration (don't know if it's greater or less than any other, but it has sure been more public), and the fact that I have heard that the man surrounds himself with people in the know because he hasn't got a handle on all situations (to put it nicely), when is the finger of blame going to start pointing inward?

I think it's time that Rice, Powell and the other cabinet members have a coupe and install McCain as Pres. and Powel as Vice.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: michaelr
Date: 06 May 04 - 02:32 PM

Yes please!

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 May 04 - 03:00 PM

At this point I don't think that he's doing the Bush Administration any good. But who would replace him? Wolfowitz?

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 06 May 04 - 03:09 PM

Hopefully with nobody who thinks like this: "the Iraqi opposition is kind of like an MRE. The ingredients are there and you just have to add water, in this case US support."

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 May 04 - 03:13 PM

MoveOn is asking people to call the President's office (202.456.1111 or202.456-1112) urging him to fire Rumsfeld, as well as asking us to call our reps and senators.

Here's the message I left with my two senators and one representative:

"I'm calling from Alaska to (ask you to) urge the president to recognize that it is time for Donald Rumsfeld to either resign or be fired. He has demonstrated a serious lack of integrity and sensitivity and any understanding of its impact on a watching world. Thank you."

I couldn't leave a message at the President's office- his voice mail box was full. I wonder why??

Poor bush, poor poor bush...

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 May 04 - 03:28 PM

But if he's fired he might even start telling some truths about Bush. For example letting in the light on what lies lie behind reports such as "President Bush complained to Defense Secretary Rumsfeld for his failure to inform him about the photographs."   

So there is no possibility of his being sacked. I suppose his resigning might be arranged, if it was seen as essential to help Bush get back into the White House, he might do that. After all, if thta doesn't happen, Rumsfeld is among those who stand to be able to take a lot less money.

Or of course, if things got really hairy, he could always be suicided...

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 May 04 - 03:49 PM

All of the above. Please and thank you. I am ashamed to call myself an American right not. Hard time to be away from home.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 04 - 03:51 PM

Rumsfeld should get a sharp knife, kneel facing east and figure it out from there.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 May 04 - 06:30 PM

resign? naaaww...he should go to Iraq and walk up & down the streets, preferrably alone and at night, offering his sincere apologies for the terrible sad and inconvenient events. I'm sure that will settle things!

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: mg
Date: 06 May 04 - 08:44 PM

Yes. Certainly one of the first things you do in military planning is to plan for securing of prisoners. You do not have soldiers who appear to have been recruited by Jerry Springer guarding them, and you do not have the guards put themselves in such unsecure situations, and you do not mix up the genders, and you let the Red Cross in from day one and listen to what they say. YOu make sure they have access to adequate food, water, shelter, medicine etc. If there are troubles you yank the troublemakers like that. Apparently the worst of the soldiers haven't even been removed from duty or reassigned yet..although I do not know that for sure. Have them sort mail or do laundry or something in the meantime. You ask to see the inspections that should have been taking place. Apart from putting prisoners, who you do not know to be part of any insurrection etc. and could be just people in the wrong place at the wrong time, in humiliating and deadly situations, you don't leave yourself exposed to them deciding they do not like this and could up and turn on you. If I had been a prisoner I would have killed one of the guards I do believe. You think about the consequences to your own prisoners of war who can follow after. We have set a precedent that will take generations to undo. Something is really really rotten and I do not believe it is just a few people.

In addition, as a former WAC, someone needs to be supervising those women. In the first place, there are places where mixing male and female troops is OK, sometimes it is more than OK, sometimes females should take over and sometimes males. But this whole shameful episode brings in a sexual component that is dirty, sacriligious to their religion (and ours), obviously abusive etc. etc.

And where is Cheney in all this?

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Bobert
Date: 06 May 04 - 09:19 PM

Yes, followed by his boss....

They are all in this thing together....

Cheney should resign, also, since his big mouth bravado crapolla sent the wrong message to the troops who actaully carried out the orders. Plus, he is a bird killer. And Sadcalia should resine from the Supreme Court, too, since he is a bird killer as well...

Okay, that makes Bush, Rumsey and Cheney...

Hmmmmmmm, like who else. Okay, where are them two little weisels who got US into the mess in the first place, Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Pearle... Yeah, type up the resignation papers for those two jerks and also be sure that when this sad chapter of American policy is written, they get front-and-center credit for they have worked mighty hard for it...

Well, geeze, Bobert.... Let's not forget Condi "Mushroom Cloud" Rice fir her hand in this mess... Sign here, Condi...

Did I leave anyone out?

Hmmmmmmmm?

Powell? Nah, at least he was tryin' to get Rumsy in line...

Yeah, that will do it for now...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 06 May 04 - 09:45 PM

Ebbie - Bush's voice-mail is full casue he doesn't know how to check it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: DougR
Date: 07 May 04 - 02:22 AM

No.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 07 May 04 - 02:27 AM

So you are in favour of Bush being on a 'need to know' basis, then, Doug?

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: dianavan
Date: 07 May 04 - 02:42 AM

I think the punishment should fit the crime. They should form a naked, human pyramid of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and all the rest with Condi standing by laughing and pointing at their genitals.

There you go Donuel. Get busy!

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 07 May 04 - 02:52 AM

With women's underwear over their heads....

Powell though, to expand on what Bobert has said, more than likely will not be available for any eventual 2nd term; being "exhausted, frustrated, and bitter, uncomfortable with President George W. Bush's agenda, and fatigued from his battles with the Pentagon".

Will he go down in history as a 'disgruntled member of the Administration', I wonder?

Pity he wouldn't write a book....

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: dianavan
Date: 07 May 04 - 04:28 AM

I still don't know how to make a blue clicky. I found this and some other poems by Rumsfeld. You'll have to find them by searching Google.

                   The Unknown

                   As we know,
                   There are known knowns.
                   There are things we know we know.
                   We also know
                   There are known unknowns.
                   That is to say
                   We know there are some things
                   We do not know.
                   But there are also unknown unknowns,
                   The ones we don't know
                   We don't know.

                   Feb. 12, 2002, Department of Defense news briefing

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 May 04 - 05:54 AM

I am pretty certain that in this country in these circumstances, and in most democratic countries, the equivalent of Rumsfeld would have no alternative but to offer his resignation. Perhaps he has.

However since the man ultimately in charge, with whom responsibility should rest is Bush, having his obedient servant resign on his behalf would be a bit hypocritical. It seems pretty evident that this abuse is in fact part of a policy of mistreatment of prioners which is authorised at very higher level indeed. By publicly backing Rumsfeld in the way he mow has, Bush has accepted responsibility for what he has dien and failed to do. The man who should go is Bush, and in an honourable political culture he would not wait until he is sacked by the electorate to resign.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 May 04 - 06:41 AM

Jim, Doug has always believed that for honorable people to treat suspected scum the way they deserve, they too must behave like scum. That's his entitlement, and thank goodness someone in this forum is prepared to stand up and be counted as a crackpot.

My money is on Rumsfeld hanging in, simply because his resignation would bring the whole mess right up to the presidential desk. But how he copes, later today, with containing his arrogance and tucking into a hearty meal of humble pie is going to be interesting to behold.

To answer Jim's question, yes I think he SHOULD resign. Even if the stories of Powell's warnings are unfounded, Rumsfeld should have had the drains up as soon as he did know. Whatever action he did take was too little and too late. One wonders if he even took it seriously.

Incidentally, I am disappointed by what seems to have been a crassly supine approach to this saga by the US media, and not only CBS. I gather that when newspapers eventually got round to running the pictures, several buried them on inside pages. Has US patriotism really run honorable values that far off the rails?

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 04 - 06:54 AM

"Has US patriotism really run honorable values that far off the rails?"

The answer is yes. And no. The behavior of the US media isn't about patriotism, but pandering to the government's propagandist uses of patriotism to make a profit off the dumb fuck American public that will buy redwhiteandblue toothpaste to 'support the troops'.

And political patronage, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Pooby
Date: 07 May 04 - 11:19 AM

Asking if Rumsfeld should resign is like asking "should I get laid tonight?"

The answer is the same: Sure, but I don't think it's gonna happen...

Pete

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 04 - 02:50 PM

The Washington Post poll today says the majority of Americans don't think he should. But the political movers and shakers, especially those who are in tune to world opinion and foreign policy making, know the writing is on the wall. Rumsfeld will have to go, or the Bush administration will be totally isolated by June 30th, and the few remaining coalition members will have pulled out of Iraq.

This human rights scandal was never going to be about American opinion, because the military propaganda efforts of the past 3 years have been too effective. Americans will support the troops, and in this case, the top military commander, even if our troops are committing war atrocities.

Bush needs Rumsfeld's head for the sacrifice to the court of world opinion, particularly the Arab world opinion. They aren't going to settle for anything less.

Today's NY Times editorial is calling for his resignation, and saying Wolfowitz can't be the replacement.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: DougR
Date: 07 May 04 - 03:40 PM

No, Jim I don't. Had everyone so incensed about "just now hearing about this" paid attention to the news, they would have read about it in January of this year. It is very clear that the Army command in Iraq reported these outrages at that time including holding a news conference which was reported on world-wide. No pictures, of course, but the existence of pictures was not known at that time.

Rumsfield has done an outstanding job and will continue to do so. Those of you crying for his head would find fault with whoever replaced him. He has far more important things to do than spend a whole day in the Senate and then the House so that members can beat up on him. One hearing, in my opinion, would have been enough either in the House or Senate.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Amos
Date: 07 May 04 - 03:51 PM

Rumsfield has done an outstanding job and will continue to do so.

Excuse me, but this outstanding job included planning for an exit strategy? No. Predicting the logistic, military and political ramifications of the overthrow? Well, not really. Understanding the training requirements of the mission? Seems not. Understanding the difference between his military mission and his police mission afterwards? Well..hard to distinguish...

I differ roundly with you, Doug -- I think his job has been one of acute mediocrity laced with PR.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 May 04 - 03:55 PM

War crimes, war crimes. Well, all offensively directed war is a crime, and a pre-meditated one at that, if you are the attacker. It's assault with deadly weapons, assault with intent to kill, murder, trespassing, arson, property destruction, and robbery...frequently accompanied by rape, kidnapping, and torture. It is abrogation of normal human decency in favour of winning the spoils. It is the common behaviour of criminal, sociopaths, and despots.

Because it is all these things, and is yet deemed necessary and expedient, society dreams up all kinds of wonderful and noble things to sanctify it: a flag, duty, loyalty, patriotism, tradition, decorations, and so on. If you don't support it you are called a "traitor". A traitor to what? Certainly not to the greater humanity. And certainly not to your own conscience, which tells you better than to go off to someone else's country and enforce your will upon their people at the point of a gun.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 04 - 04:27 PM

"Had everyone so incensed about "just now hearing about this" paid attention to the news, they would have read about it in January of this year."

Well then, by his own admission, our President doesn't pay attention to the news!

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Deda
Date: 07 May 04 - 05:23 PM

Should he? Sure. And I should be a ga-zillionaire, cuz I'm so cool. And my sick nephew should suddenly be well, and my mentally ill friend should suddenly heal by magic, and the ozone layer should be restored, and the nasty greenhouse gasses should leak out of the biosphere into the farthest end of the galaxy, closing the leak behind them as they leave, and the poor, miserable, and sick people of the world should all get visits from their fairy godmothers. Cruelty and terror should evaporate, and .... oh, OK, OK, I'll shut up now.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 07 May 04 - 06:29 PM

"Well then, by his own admission, our President doesn't pay attention to the news"

Not only that, GUEST, but Mr. Rumsfeld cannot remember when he told the President, if he told the President... or if somebody else told the President (because he doesn't take notes, himself, doncha know).
And get this...

He doesn't remember what the President told him (or somebody else) to do about it.

You are a very understanding man, DougR.
Will you be as understanding of a Democrat SOD, this time next year, if he/she finds themselves in a similar situation?

There is a fat lady in the wings.
I wonder does she have the same laryngitis as Senator Byrd has.....?

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 May 04 - 06:42 PM

You can bet yer boots that if a Democrat Sec. of Defense were in the same position, conservatives from Rush Limbaugh to Orrin Hatch would be SCREAMING for his head on a platter...after he resigned!

(I heard Rush today blathering about how this is 'just a political ploy' by the Democrats to try to embarass the 'good guys' in an election year!...)

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 May 04 - 06:54 PM

At least Reagan had good reason for not being able to remember stuff.

"Don't ask, don't tell" may have something to be said for in regard to gay soldiers - but it's one hell of a way to run a country.

Doug thinks that Runsfeld should be congratulated because back in January they responded to evidence about torture in Abu Ghraib.

It's now come out that the International Red Cross rang the alarm bell about it a whole year ago. Red Cross describes systematic abuse in Iraq

Here's what its director of oprations hasa to say: It is clear that our findings do not allow to conclude that what we were dealing with here in the case of Abu Ghraib was isolated acts of individual members of the coalition forces. What we have described amounts to a pattern, a broad system."

I watched Runsfeld on the news, saying he accepted responsibility for what happened, and adsmitting that it happened on gis watch. And then saying he was not offering his resignation. That's the very least any honourable person in his position should do. If Bush wants to refuse to accept it, and asks him to stay, that's his right; and if Runsfeld withdrew his resignation in the face of it, that's the kind of thing politicians do.

But not even offering to resign - that really is a very extraordinary way to carry on.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Beardy
Date: 07 May 04 - 06:57 PM

YES

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 07 May 04 - 07:01 PM

Though he did admit that if he were to resign, it 'probably' would go some way to repairing the damage.

I would imagine that would 'probably' depend on the extent of the eventual damage.

A week is a long time in politics, and that's no lie.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 May 04 - 07:46 PM

Maybe a better question to ask might be, "Would an honourable person in that situation feel honour bound to offer their resignation?"

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: dianavan
Date: 07 May 04 - 07:54 PM

I don't think anything Rumsfeld can say or do will repair the damage. The damage has been done. The U.S. military has been there a year. These pictures are only the tip of the iceberg.

...unless he's simply talking about the damage to the reputation of the Bush administration. I think thats all he really cares about.

I think that the U.N. should demand that the U.S. get out of Iraq or face charges of war crimes. Peaceful coalition forces could then begin to help re-build the country and Iraq could begin to re-establish their own political system.

Simplistic? Perhaps. But I don't see how anything the U.S. does now will help.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 May 04 - 07:57 PM

It's got to be the people of the USA who tell the government of the USA where to get off. They've got the power to do that, and they've got the duty to do that. A patriotic duty.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Gareth
Date: 07 May 04 - 08:06 PM

And Kevin, they will have the opportunity to do so in November.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: dianavan
Date: 07 May 04 - 08:06 PM

McGrath - Do we have to wait for the election?

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 May 04 - 08:23 PM

You don't have a recall system for President like you do for Governors in California, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Should Rumsfeld Resign?
From: Amergin
Date: 07 May 04 - 08:26 PM

Send him to a certain prison in Iraq....and see how he likes giving blowjobs...