BS: Interesting article on Iraq War/Oil/Etc.

Subject: BS: Interesting article on Iraq War/Oil/Etc.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 May 04 - 12:02 AM

Here is a link to a very interesting article on the Iraq War, the growing world crisis arising around the search for oil and other sources of energy, and related factors.

The Oil War that is now being lost.

The article is by Whitley Strieber, and it makes some very telling points. Interestingly enough, he was in favour of making war on Iraq in January 2003! (I certainly wasn't, because there was no moral justification for it.) The reason he was in favour of launching the war was simple:

1. not because of nonexistant WMD's
2. not because of 911
3. not because Saddam ran an evil government
4. not because of the War on Terrorism
5. not because Iraq posed a future threat to anyone

But...because of this...in his own words:

"In January of 2003, I published a journal entry on this website in support of going to war against Saddam Hussein. The reason I offered then is even more valid now than it was then. It is that the west needs at least one substantial, proven and stable source of oil outside of its own borders. The stakes are not small: we need this to survive. To those who ignore the oil problem, claiming that "free market" forces will always find enough supply to meet demand, I say this: one ideology is as much an illusion as another."

What follows in the article is fascinating. The USA did, in fact, launch the war to secure American and British control of the oil...and quite understandably, by the way, given the growing need for that oil. It used all the other phony excuses (1 - 5 above) to get public support for that oil war.

The thing that really fascinates me is that Whitley Strieber, a very idealistic and dedicated man, not a man who normally favours invading countries on false excuses, was still in favour of this Oil War back in Jan/03. He was in favour of it simply because the general situation regarding future energy supplies is so perilous that he felt that the survival of North America as a stable society depended on securing that oil. Sheer pragamatism, in other words.

Try reading the rest of the article, as he makes a compelling case.

He now regards the war as irrevocably lost, for a variety of reasons, which are further explained in the article.

It interests me because it's a fresh look at the whole situation, and it makes pretty good sense.

I know damn well this war was not launched over democracy, terrorism, WMD's, 911 or anything else like that. It was already being planned well before 911, and for reasons of sheer national survival (as a stable and prosperous society), not just national security.

The Oil War that is now being lost.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting article on Iraq War/Oil/Etc.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 04 - 01:11 AM

I don't have time to read the article right now, LH, but I'm afraid I don't have much respect for the position articulated in the quote you provided.

If the US government was as concerned as Strieber thinks, it would be doing more to help efforts at promoting conservation of resources, rather than doing exactly the opposite, and it would be doing more to help efforts at promoting the development of alternative energy sources rather than doing exactly the opposite. For instance, more tax incentives would be created for using or building more fuel efficient cars, and tax incentives would be created for companies that are doing R&D on alternative energy sources. And tax penalties for companies and individuals who are contributing to the problem of overconsumption of oil and other fossil fuels. Right now, the US government is rewarding those who waste resources, or help to promote the waste of resources.

I think the policies of the US goverment with regard to oil are purely for the further enrichment of the fossil fuels industry. Maybe Strieber has a lot of money invested in oil stocks or something.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting article on Iraq War/Oil/Etc.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 May 04 - 05:31 AM

This is why my basic position is that we MUST develop alternative energy sources on an ultra fast track. We must apply our intelligence and scientific skills to innovation in this area or face human suffering on so vast a scale that it is almost beyond imagination.

No national energy strategy can be complete without two components that are missing from our current strategy, which goes no farther than to attempt to secure, short-term, a stable oil supply. An intelligent energy strategy includes two further components: conservation and innovation. (another quote from the article)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting article on Iraq War/Oil/Etc.
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 07 May 04 - 05:38 AM

This might help

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting article on Iraq War/Oil/Etc.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 04 - 10:35 AM

*G* Wolfgang, it's worth having a little egg on my face if it means I get to see you quote Whitley Strieber ;-)

The problem with Communism and Free Market Capitalism is that they've never been tried.

I certainly agree with Mr. Strieber's assesment of what is needed, but I heartily disagree with any suggestion that the motivation for the US waging war against Iraq had anything to do with concern by the US government about dwindling oil supplies.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting article on Iraq War/Oil/Etc.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 May 04 - 10:48 AM

Carol, you are absolutely right...and Witley Strieber agrees with your every point. Read the article. The reason the US government has not been acting responsibly in regard to alternative energy sources and energy conservation is because it is a hostage to huge corporations who would rather just do what they're already doing and make a whole lot of money fast. This is a betrayal of our whole society and it is leading us into a very bad spot.

If the USA had acted more responsibly in the areas you mention over the past 10-20 years...or...if the USA had been a more honest and neutral broker between the Arabs and the Palestinians over that same period (and treated both sides equally instead of grossly favouring Israel)...we would not be in the mess we are presently in, and it would not have been deemed necessary to launch a war in the Middle East to secure control of oil reserves.

Furthermore, there would probably be no Al Queda...but the roots of Al Queda were started by the CIA during the Cold War in order to hurt Russia...so that's debatable. There would at least be far less reason for Al Queda to now hate America. 911 would probably never have happened.

It is the unreasoning and unimaginative search for fast profit by major corporations that has gotten us into this rapidly deteriorating situation. Government has been hijacked by Big Business, in an unholy alliance with a particularly perverted strain of Evangelical Christianity which has the gall to assert that being rich is a sign of God's favour! (and that therefore the rich have a God-given right to run and inherit the Earth)

This is in fact directly contrary to Jesus' own teachings in a philosophical sense...what irony.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting article on Iraq War/Oil/Etc.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 04 - 10:58 AM

I agree with part of what you're saying, LH, but I think it's important to also remember the other motivations the US had for waging war against Iraq. Many members of the current US administration want to create a situation in which the US is the only world superpower. A strategic lynchpin of that agenda is for there to not be any other governments, countries, or other entities, that are in a position to challenge this supremacy. OPEC was threat to this agenda, and a good way to disrupt OPEC is for the US to topple regimes in OPEC countries that aren't being obedient clients of the US government.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting article on Iraq War/Oil/Etc.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 May 04 - 11:14 AM

That's true, Carol. An aside on all this: China is now using larger and larger amounts of oil and other strategic materials in order to fuel their rapid industrialization. They are turning into the world's biggest economy and modernizing fast. The Chinese are also going to be looking at where they can secure and control oil supplies...and they will look to the Middle East and the Caspian region. This brings them directly into conflict with the interests of both Russia and the USA.

The wisest thing the Russians could do to secure their own position is to become part of the European Union, and I expect they will within 10 years or less. It's really their only good option.

Israel and the USA are going to become increasingly isolated by their Mideast policies, in my opinion.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting article on Iraq War/Oil/Etc.
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 07 May 04 - 08:11 PM

I suggest the Hydrogen Economy by Jeremy Rifkin.
ultimately thats where we have to move, away from polluting & shrinking fossil fuels, which are mostly in an unstable part of the world - and towards decentralized, cleaner hydrogen fuel cell power.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting article on Iraq War/Oil/Etc.
From: Amergin
Date: 07 May 04 - 08:16 PM

isn't whitley strieber the crackpot that claimed to be abduceted several times and wrote books about those supposed incidents just to get his anme on a bestseller list, as he is nothing but a third rate writer.?

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting article on Iraq War/Oil/Etc.
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 07 May 04 - 08:58 PM

"The wisest thing the Russians could do to secure their own position is to become part of the European Union, and I expect they will within 10 years or less"

And then we'll be 'neighbours', LH

"... and it's all just a little bit of history repeating..."

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting article on Iraq War/Oil/Etc.
From: GUEST,Lepche
Date: 07 May 04 - 11:07 PM

Amergin, I suggest you just read the article, rather than repeating hackneyed bits of prejudiced gossip about the man. I suppose anyone who writes about anything you don't happen to already believe in MUST be a crackpot, right?

I also suggest you read Strieber's book "Breakthrough" and you will find out that "abduction" is a totally simplistic and misleading term for what Strieber has written about...and you would also get some interesting info about the American intelligence community and its activities regarding UFO's and the names of some of the key people involved (well documented)...ah, but that would require you to consider things you are not in the least even willing to consider, wouldn't it?

Well, never mind then...just reassure yourself that he's a "crackpot". It's easier that way. Like Galileo. He was a crackpot too. Remember? And so was Darwin. Not to mention the idiot that asserted that mosquitos spread malaria, or the one that had the crazy idea that a ship made out of steel could actually float! Imagine, the nerve of these crackpots with their crazy ideas! Laugh them out of town, I say.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting article on Iraq War/Oil/Etc.
From: Amos
Date: 07 May 04 - 11:13 PM

The problem with that hypothesis, Nathan, is his writing isn't really third rate -- it is actually fairly intelligent. His stuff is the kind of writing that makes you pause and think twice about alternate reality.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting article on Iraq War/Oil/Etc.
From: GUEST,Frances
Date: 08 May 04 - 12:39 AM

And then there were the idiots who suggested that one could communicate with a wireless device over vast distances. Crackpots, all of them! There was even some moron once who got the idea that you could split the atom and that space is curved. What nonsense.   They laughed him right out of town.

There simply isn't anything worth knowing that isn't already known and duly recorded in the Encyclopedia Americana. Remember that, and you will be on solid ground, Amergin.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting article on Iraq War/Oil/Etc.
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 04 - 01:02 AM

As we know, There are known knowns. There are things we know we know.

And there are things we wished we hadn't.....

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting article on Iraq War/Oil/Etc.
From: Amergin
Date: 08 May 04 - 04:08 AM

Oh....so does that mean that Von Daniken was a genius too?

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting article on Iraq War/Oil/Etc.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 May 04 - 09:13 AM

Von Daniken had the unfortuate tendency to ascribe all notable things in human history to one single original cause: alien visitors. This, I believe, placed him in the territory of "crackpots", along with fanatical born-agains, fanatical muslims, and people who worship William Shatner (oops!).

Strieber is in no way comparable. He does not ascribe all things to a single cause, he has a broad and well-informed grasp of what he's talking about, and he writes about ten times better than Von Daniken ever dreamed of writing. If there were a strong desire on the part of certain governmental agencies to discredit people who have something useful to say to the public about UFO's, would it not be expedient for them to spread the idea that those people are crackpots?

I have seen such vehicles, and strongly suspect they were not of Earthly origin. I suppose that means I'm a crackpot, does it?

Read the article. You will find nothing about space aliens in it whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting article on Iraq War/Oil/Etc.
From: GUEST,skeptic
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:45 AM

LH says:

"I have seen such vehicles, and strongly suspect they were not of Earthly origin. I suppose that means I'm a crackpot, does it?"

YES, YES AND YES!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting article on Iraq War/Oil/Etc.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 May 04 - 04:54 PM

You're premature, skeptic, that's only one of several possible hypotheses.
- LH could make these statements as a part of his PhD work in social psychology to test reactions from people like you and me.
- LH could be a jester who likes to fun with people etc.

(Never only use one hypothesis to explain an observation)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting article on Iraq War/Oil/Etc.
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 08 May 04 - 05:08 PM

I read the article and agree with much of it. One basic disagreement. I believe the oil crisis is contrived. Pollution from the use of this energy source is a much greater problem.

If Detroit decided to have fuel efficient vehicles tomorrow, any thought of a crisis could be stopped. Alternative energy sources could be made cost-effective if the powerful business interests could be curtailed.

The "oil crisis" as a basis for attacking a foreign country is contrived as well.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting article on Iraq War/Oil/Etc.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 May 04 - 05:51 PM

Well, yes, Wolfgang, and another possible hypothesis is that there actually ARE visiting vehicles of non-human origin, and I happened to see a couple of them. God knows, there's a ton of evidence out there if one is willing to bother looking for it. Skeptics are not willing to, because they are hobbled by a very strong emotional predisposition to continue being skeptical and discount such evidence or ignore it or ridicule it.

In your case, Guest Skeptic, ridicule appears to be the favourite tactic.

And here's another hypothesis: There may be secret vehicles built BY our government that are being mistaken for alien vehicles. If so, this would not require you to believe in extraterrestrials, so why not consider it?

Again, this would not make me a crackpot, it would just make me someone who has seen something you have not seen, Skeptic. And I am sure I've seen many things you have not seen...and vice versa.

You are in the grip of religious dementia, my friend...meaning, you cling religiously to your established faith that there can't possibly be anything out there that doesn't already fit your expectations. What logic you can back that up with I can only wonder? It's the same kind of logic used by people who answer everything by quoting from the Bible.

And by the way, this thread is about an article that does not discuss UFO's. It discusses the War in Iraq, oil, politics, etc...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting article on Iraq War/Oil/Etc.
From: GUEST,Zoggy Zog
Date: 08 May 04 - 06:42 PM

But if the aliens have taken over the White House....

Who thinks Bush looks decidedly androidic?

Hmmmmmmm !

Subject: RE: BS: Interesting article on Iraq War/Oil/Etc.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 May 04 - 06:49 PM

Well, he does have astounding fighting abilities, Zoggy, so you may be onto something. Check out this site:

Bush takes on the Terrorists!!!