50th and last Sidmouth festival?

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:58 PM

It seems to me that, while it is perfectly possible to organise things from a distance, and it's been done remarlkably well in this case, a local continuing presence is a very important element indeed in helping people and organisations locally see the event as in some sense their event and not something they've been lumbered with by a bunch of outsiders.

It's always struck me as a bit dangerous that, in between festivals, it appears that folk music pretty well dies out in Sidmouth - in contrast to Whitby or Fylde, and most other festivals I have come across. I know there's the Middle Bar Reunion, but so far as I am aware there is no kind of local folk club.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: fiddler
Date: 21 May 04 - 04:08 AM

Interesting McG

Sidmouth has the highest average age in the country, or did have, how then did the festival end up there in the first place?

This age parameter could also lead to some antagonism just by all these young folk being here. Why I don't know.

As to the rest I don't know.

A

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 May 04 - 12:55 PM

The Fringe events IMO would die a death rapidly without the umbrella of the Festival proper.

I am not sure that folk who express this view, which appears on the surface to be a common sense one, really understand the nature of fringe events and the Sidmouth finge events in particular. The relationship between the festival proper is really not a very close one and has become even more distant over recent years.

It is pretty obvious that there would be less people in total available to attend fringe activities, but that these events would die rapidly, should the official event end, is less sure. Perhaps a view on this, from a Middle Bar Singers attendee or a seafront regular would be useful?

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 21 May 04 - 03:16 PM

Well, I'm pretty sure we'd lose the Theatre Bar singarounds, which is where the official festival and fringe meet. I can't think of any other venues that would be quiet enough for singers who aren't very confident, or sufficiently smoke-free for asthma sufferers. I'm not sure that I'd want to spend lunchtimes and evenings in the Middle Bar for a whole week, either.

Kitty

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 21 May 04 - 03:22 PM

I probably should have pointed out that I go to Sidmouth the day before the festival starts, so that I can sing in the Middle Bar before it gets really crowded and noisy, and that I also usually drop in there on some evenings during the festival.

I wonder what would happen to Rosy's evening session in the Royal York & Faulkner if there was no official festival. Again, that's really for confident singers including booked festival artists and visiting semi-pros.

Kitty

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Adrianl
Date: 21 May 04 - 05:40 PM

I think there are a lot of people like me who will drop into the Middle Bar and other sessions for a couple of hours because we are there but I doubt would travel to Sidmouth if the rest of the festival was not on.

Adrian

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 04 - 07:53 PM

For the past four years I have spent almost all of the festival assisting in hosting the sessions in one of the non-official town venues. I do this because I really love performing and audienting at these informal sessions. Having read all the postings on this subject, it seems to me that one point, and only one point, has direct relevance to the continued life of this, and other, cultural events. When something like this happens, we all start to discuss it, and we end up disagreeing, and slagging each other off. If we put the same energy into telling those ******* at Whitehall that they had damn well better start supporting arts and culture, we probably would not have these problems. So why can we never get enough people to stand up and shout at the real villains of the piece, who don't want British Culture, and tradition, because they plan for us all to become good little Europeans very soon. The only thing that scares a politician, is realising that there are enough upset constituents, potentially to overturn his majority. Time we organised a few good frights, don't you think?

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 May 04 - 02:00 AM

So why can we never get enough people to stand up and shout at the real villains of the piece, who don't want British Culture, and tradition, because they plan for us all to become good little Europeans very soon.

The answer is that we can. We did manage to get 110,000 people to sign a E petition telling our current Government just that. This was very effective but sadly we still cannot get together enough to prevent local authorities from claiming that the law means they must continue to prevent sessions. But that IS another story, but a similar one.

Update on the Palm sesh

We do a very good job of fighting each other and not fighting together to tackle the root causes. In the face of a real threat, we seem to be able to find many good reasons to do nothing and many ways to advise others why doing nothing at all, except in fighting, is the best option. In case we make things worse……Back to Sidmouth.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 May 04 - 04:12 PM

There is an English disease involving embarrassment and over regulation, together with tight-fistedness when it comes to providing support for events like Sidmouth. And there are worries soem people have about the European Union. But they aren't to be packaged together. I see that as a thread drift too far.

There is no way that the troubles of Sidmouth can be blamed on Brussels bureaucrats. Many other parts of our continent seem to be much more relaxed and helpful about this kind of event. If only England could learn from the example of Ireland in these matters, we'd be a lot better off musically and culturally.

Once again, I'd urge that most of the non-ticket events at Sidmouth should not be seen as "fringe", they are very much part of the festival, and a central part too.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST,Guest (Victoria)
Date: 22 May 04 - 05:05 PM

A few thoughts having read this thread with interest.

For me, Sidmouth lost its charm when the current management took over and stopped inviting the majority of English Folk teams, and subsequently dropped folk from the title. I would be disappointed if it finished but I don't feel any strong compunction to save it myself.

This year will be a good festival - and if it is the last it will go out with a bang, which is much better than limping on into obscurity. Nevertheless, I'd remember it from 15 years ago not from the last 2 years when I've been again.

However, clearly there are many people out there for whom the magic is still very much there which is great. Go out there and put your money where your mouths are, or lobby those with deeper pockets. The trust idea sounds good, as does the idea of wet weather contingencies, particularly for the Arena. Keep them coming and pass them on to MrsC, who I'm sure would be glad of more brains working on the problems.

Although not directly relevant as it was some way up the thread, on the subject of cars on the campsite: at Chippenham Folk Festival they ban car movement on site in wet years. You are allowed to tow your caravan on (or drive on to unload) but then must stay there. If you need your car during the week - because you have kit to get to events, need to leave the area, use a wheelchair, etc - you have to drive it off site and park elsewhere. Seems to work fine there. The distances are similar, as is the hill through town...

Would it be Simouth if it was in a different location?!

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST,Seaking
Date: 22 May 04 - 10:21 PM

I've been going to Sidmouth since 1997 and for me it's got better each year as I do more and get involved in more each time I go. I buy season and camping tickets for myself and the two children which I regard as good value for what we get over eight days. We do everything from Arena concerts, LNE, singarounds, harmony workshops, Kid's festival, Middle Bar, Singing in the Sea, open stage, - you name it, we've probably tried it, taking in the total Festival experience, official and fringe. Come monsoon or heatwave, Sidmouth is a unique experience, it's whole greater than the sum of it's parts which for me is it's secret, and I for one would mourn it's passing in any other (i.e. lesser) form than already exists as I really doubt it could ever be replaced elsewhere.

We'll be there this year, I just hope it's not our last visit..

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: fiddler
Date: 23 May 04 - 01:00 PM

And round and round and round and round and round and round and round
We just keep swimming round and round and round and round and round!

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 04 - 01:23 PM

Naah, fiddler - I've been going to Sidmouth for years, and I've never been in the sea.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 23 May 04 - 01:25 PM

Well I've read the lot with interest, all 162 or whatever of them, so time for me to do a posting!
Onny, have you never heard of Celtic Connections in Glasgow? It's into its 11th year now and didn't it win one of the big Folk Awards this year? Admittedly it's not like Sidmouth - well who would want to camp in January. Edinburgh had it's last folk Festival as EFF in Nov 1999, but we now have Ceilidh Culture, so things are getting going again, and we have MSPs who even sing folksongs in the Scottish Parliament!
English Jon, London is not the centre of the Universe: some of us even come all the way from Scotland for Sidmouth and I'm not the only one!
Transport: when Sidmouth festival first started there was still a railway - at least as far as Sidmouth Junction - until a certain Dr beeching came along!
Paying: I buy a season ticket as it allows me flexibilty and choice, I also put money in the tins, pay my fines at the Middle Bar and have contributed to the "Sidmouth Fiddler" Appeal. I still think it's great value for money, and appreciate all the hard work the organisers and stewards and MBS drivers, etc do.
Locals: my inlaws and many of their relatives are local. Some of them attend events in the festival, some don't. They used to know all the ruses for seeing things for free, e.g. peeping between the top of the bushes at the Knowle above the Arena, but it's harder to do this now thanks to needing passes to get into the knowle, and putting up high screens.
I would like Sidmouth to continue, as I agree, it's unique.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 23 May 04 - 02:54 PM

Somebody posted a query miles up the thread asking how EFDSS managed to run Sidmouth from a distance.

When I first went, they didn't, in those days they had an full time regional organiser based in Exeter who was responsible for running the festival. They also had the advantage that in those pre Glasnost days the east European dance teams, who brought in the paying punters in the arena, were heavily subsidised by their governments.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: s&r
Date: 23 May 04 - 04:46 PM

Didn't a wet week at Sidmouth virtually bankrupt EFDSS? I suppose half an hour or so away at Exeter is close, but I wonder nevertheless how much of the organising was still done by post and phone - most of it I would guess.

It may be that Sidmouth is the goose that lays the golden eggs for Mrs C, although I doubt it. It certainly wasn't at the time of EFDSS giving it up.

I like the idea of a contingency/emergency fund; and although I don't go to Sidmouth, I'd be quite willing to put my hand in my pocket to help cover a wet weather disaster. I've no idea how this could be organised though; I wouldn't wish to simply contribute to the running costs

Stu

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: fiddler
Date: 24 May 04 - 08:47 AM

yup and if a trust was set up properly it could be used to cover other festivals too!

They would still need to pay a fee form membership of the trust but it would probably be much less than wet weather insurance!

Universities set up a schem similar to this years ago - it saved money hand over fist for a long time.

A

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 04 - 07:40 PM

When I first went there it was as a day tripper with two young children and did not find the whole thing child friendly enough to make me go back there for 10 years.
When I did return it was as a steward and the start and finish times of my shifts were really awkward so I didn't get to see much at all. I didn't feel that I got enough out of it to warant working there again.
Since then I have gone and done the fringe and paid to see what interested me. Paying £5 to go in to the festival market is outrageous so I go after 5pm when it's free. The traders can't be happy about the situation, I certainly wouldn't be. Last year I overheard one saying "It must be 5-o-clock we've got customers.
The whole ethos of Sidmouth comes across as being about taking money and greed on the part of the organisers. This may be wrong but that's how it appears.
I hope the festival survives but I do not find the season ticket value for money and will not be sobbing into a sodden tissue if it fails.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 27 May 04 - 10:09 AM

How about the fringe without the main event. Ahem... like at Bishop's Castle folk weekend 11th - 13th June.

8-)

Sal

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Cllr
Date: 27 May 04 - 10:13 AM

I put this on a new thread but possibly more people will see it here

I found this on an official leaflet in my local music shop (Bedroom Acoustic music Ampthill)
"BB2 radio 2 Young folk Awards 2004/5 you could win a performance at Sidmouth festival 2005 and Cambridge Folk festival. Well thats alright then. problem over.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 11:05 AM

Could the local council elections change everything?
Could Sidmouth be saved by a change of councillers?
Which Local goverment authority dose Sidmouth come under and who now controls it?

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST,Cllr at work
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 11:40 AM

guest

a) No, as the decision about the festival is still with Mrs casey's music.
b) Sidmouth festival is not under threat from councillors See below
c) East Devon Conservative.


I posted this under a different thread but no one responded I will repeat here to see if there is any response.

Hmmm, I have spoken to some people (cllrs) down there (and more on that in later posts) and the issues which are disparagingly called "political" in this case are not necessarily left or right. But the disposal of public money is quite rightly a political issue. The actual argument of festival continuation is either down to funding from the council or over Mrs Casey willingness to continue it as a business proposition, if they don't want to do it no amount of debate over funding issues will change the bottom line.

. My own take on the " political" situation is this.
Responsible politicians should not hand over the best part of Sixty thousand pounds without checking or seen to be checking what is being done with the money. The council have not said the funding is to be withdrawn just that they want to scrutinise the way it is used.
It is not for local councils to support private businesses and unless it can demonstrate to auditors, inspectors, and the voting public that it is a a valid use of tax payers money they could be accused of maladministration.

The provision of a survey from the interested party is not enough especially as to my knowledge it does not address the issue of how much money would enter into the local economy by tourism at the height of the holiday season regardless of whether the festival is there or not. Invisible earnings from tourism are always difficult to quantify at the best of times. While the council have a duty to promote tourism and the local economy it is not a statutory duty and any promotion or fiduciary help should be carefully monitored in the public interest. There has been increasing pressure on councils from this government to realise full market value from any of its assets including monies from hiring rent etc The charity commission has also gone down this route as well.

The amount of money that the festival brings in to the area is substantial but the direction in which it flows is not I.e., publicans, hotels, supermarkets have a bonanza but the detail of what they put into the festival or local economy is not readily available. The argument of advance ticket sales not covering the cost of the festival has been simplified to such an extent that it is difficult to have a serious public debate. The lack of transparency is not just due to sensitive commercial issues, which I think is understandable, but also due to the lack of quantifiable evidence.

If one excepts the rational that advance ticket sales only covers half a million which means that if we assume £150 per ticket and £50 camping that only 2500 are available (ok figures are approx and don't take into account the variations but you get the drift) This means if the other figures are to be believed that the other 37,500 that attend only buy enough tickets to raise around another quarter of a million. I realise this does not seem to make sense but at the level of public debate this is all the info we have available. Note that also, this year the attendance is reckoned to increase from 40,000 to over 60,000

We have a microcosm of the festival writ small in the middle bar every year. Usually a local tries to talk over the singers quoting "it's my bar, I drink here all the time, bloody folkies have you heard the latest ring tone where is my mobile phone" etc without realising (or more importantly) without wanting to accept the the festival enables Sidmouth to support so many drinking establishments. I read in the herald that one resident complained about the Maroons, that alert the inshore rescue crew, saying it should be banned as it frightens her dog. Local residents will have different views and just because they get published does not mean that is a majority view.


If the festival is to continue in anyway near it's present format, the way forward can only be debated properly when Mrs Casey's intentions become clear.Either they are seeking better conditions in which to operate and are hoping to continue or they are hoping to maintain the current situation or they are trying to disengage without seeming to be just abandoning the whole thing. If they pull out for ANY reason - financial- lack of funding, insurance costs, PRS, lack of profit or too much grief interference from council PEL whatever, then I would hope that Steve would want the festival to continue ( I do believe his heart is in the right place despite the intense criticism he and his organisation attracts) and at this point any interested parties Council/ Friends/MBS/shellbacks should be able to pick up the reigns without having to start over, so that renewing longstanding arrangements/partnerships/funding sources could be achieved. I'm not saying these things wouldn't change but a handover of any sort would be infinitely preferable to a start form scratch approach and more disconcertingly the only feasible way forward.

The complicating part of this, as if it needs anymore, is that the interested parties do not have a common goal, by that I mean while everybody (or most) thinks the festival is "a good thing" there are many differing views on what format it should take. The old joke about How many folkies does it take to change a light bulb? exemplifies the disparity of views that can be held within the folk scene itself and this division or divisions do not aid in coming forward with at best a continuation of the festival at worst a rescue package solution. As I have already mentioned the prerequisite for debate around change still lies with Mr Heap which should become clear(er) in the immediate future.

I love the festival and one day I hope to move to sidmouth as I love the place all year round. I have offered whatever assistance I can to certain parties which I hope will be taken seriously. As a politician "who makes his living from it" and as a folkie event organiser and performer I feel I do have a better chance of understanding of the issues and the positions being taken, but the demonisation of any of the parties folk, fringe, Steve Heap, politicians, residents and local business does not forward the debate. I discovered my love of unaccompanied singing in the middle bar and I want to continue for another fifty years.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 03:08 PM

Apparently not the last - this message has been sent to Anchor Middle Bar Singers by Chris Cook of Great Western Morris:

Basically, after last night's meeting, there is definitely going to be a Festival next year. There is a working party (made up of EDDC members) looking into funding. EDDC will only put in 60,000 quid. The financial report is to be published (probably an edited version). There will be a further meeting for people interested in, and with ideas for, next year's festival.
SO, let everyone know that there will be a festival next year.

Kitty

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Dave Masterson
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 04:56 AM

Eileen and I were in Sidmouth last week and got into conversation with a local shopkeeper who happens to be a folkie. He said the locals have got fed up with the way the festival has gone. He told us stories of last year dance teams not being allowed to dance on the seafront, and of 'bouncers' being on the doors of marquees used by the foreign teams to practice, to stop people looking in. The only assumption one can make is that the mentality behind this is 'if you want to look, you can pay'.
He stressed that the Sidmouth residents love the festival, but hate the way it's being run at the moment. They'd like to see it return to way it was 10 or more years ago.
If these stories are true, then the sooner the present organisers move on the better.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: fiddler
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 06:37 PM

Well I was there last year and many previous years and the story I would say is B*LL*X!

Sorry,

The festival employs security to keep safe the festival - PA that walks etc.....

I know dancers who danced on the sea front, I walked along it many times and there was lots of music.

Duplicity is easy - when you are backed in to a corner come out fighting and let the truth take second place to myth and legend!!!!!

Teh festivla is not perfect but neither are Sidmouth Council or residents as some of the posts in this thread have shown. Lets all not be too gullible and hope for the best.

Andy

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 06:53 PM

I have resisted joining in this debate, but I do think that the local that Dave Masterson quotes is a step too far......just 'cos someone says it is true, does not mean it is so.

I was only able to get there for part of the week last year but I saw plenty of teams dancing around both the sea front and other places, and I am sure that my dancing friends would have told me if the traditional Sunday Morris had not taken place. So the local folkie does need to quote chapter and verse of how dance teams were banned -for example - if the police/traffic wardens banned them then this was hardly the fault of the festival.......I cannot see how Mrs. Casey can possibly stop teams dancing where they are allowed to by the local authority. How precisely did the Festival organisers do this?

As for bouncers stopping watching rehearsals....I have danced all over the world see http://www.citymorris.f9.co.uk/International.htm ....and it is not unusual to stop people entering a venues during rehearsals.....in the same way that venues are closed during sound checks. It is a rehearsal/sound check after all.......

As for the phrase "The only assumption one can make is that the mentality behind this is 'if you want to look, you can pay', I reckon there is some pretty good free entertainment to be had for the cost of living in Sidmouth (camping/b and b/hired cottage) for a few days during the first week in August. Anchor Garden Ceilidhs are free for example.....buskers are free, sessions in the Bedford, Radway, Middle Bar Singers...need I really go on? People tell me it is possible to do these without even buying a beer...........

It is easy to criticise the festival for its size. The first complaint about it getting too big according to the historian of the festival was 1957, and there was at least one other in the early 70's published in the EFDSS magazine.

The suggestion to go back to ten years ago is clearly a reference to the days when the EFDSS ran the festival. Ask them to take over. Ask anyone in fact....

The answer will be not without guarantees against loss due to the weather..bit like Mrs. Casey really.

Best regards,

Dave Eyre
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 05:02 AM

Sensible words Dave.

Just to add that the quote about going back 10years "may" have been a hark back to the EFDSS days, but I've been involved in the festival for the last 18 years and it's been Mrs Casey not the EFDSS in all that time.

Too many people take one person's bit of hearsay as truth.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 06:53 AM

I have never been to Sidmouth as I can't afford it therfore i vote with my wallet. There was a similar kerfufle at Beverley a couple of years ago, Mudcat organised a mini festival that went back to basics and worked, the highly organised festival returned the year after and included the back to basics festival.
I have not read the thread but I suspect the festival pumps a huge amount of money into the local economy but the local econonmy does not repay anything back into the festival.
A couple of years ago (again) bloody mindlessness meant that the regatta at Whitby clashed with the folk festival and the only loosers was the local economy I wonder if they will do it again?
Remember they all like our money but they dont like folkies.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Adrianl
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 07:43 AM

This has been posted on umf, I don't think it has been posted here.

Sidmouth site

Gives some insight both ways about views and local politics in Sidmouth.

Adrian

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 05:19 PM

You just can't please all of the people all of the time.

When the festival was small, most of it happened in a small area of the town. The dance displays were along the Esplanade, in the Market Square and in the Blackmore and Connaught Gardens. Singing events were in various places but the Late Night Extra was in the Drill Hall. Morris workshops, tea dances and concerts were held in the Ham Marquee.

There came a point when various factors, including complaints from locals about the noise, led to the move of dance displays to the Knowle Arena, and of the LNE out of town.

Now that the festival is based on the Knowle site, some town traders feel that they're not benefiting financially. I'm not sure why, because lots of people still turn up to do the fringe in town.

I think dancing on the Esplanade was banned for a while for health and safety reasons, after a year when the beach was very low, and a dancer was injured falling off the wall.

Kitty

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 06:30 PM

A couple of years ago (again) bloody mindlessness meant that the regatta at Whitby clashed with the folk festival and the only loosers was the local economy I wonder if they will do it again?

I thought bloody mindedness and Yorkshiremen were synonymous.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST,steve in sidmouth
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 03:09 PM

A comprehensive set of background material on the situation in Sidmouth is available on my website www.seered.co.uk - just follow the link on the opening page. I am particularly interested to receive feedback on pages folk21.htm and folk22.htm discussing economic analysis of festivals. Some of the discussion on mudcat is interesting: I will summarize it when I have time.......

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 05:55 PM

Hi Steve of Sidmouth,

I have read your website through and it seems that you are generally supportive but sceptical.

However it does seem to me that the arguments you present on your site make the case for exclusion of festivals anywhere which are organised in the way that Sidmouth is. By that I mean organised so that the potential audience can buy a "season" ticket of some sort or other, and/or opt into events that attract them. They purchase accommodation locally as to their own finances and income. This exclusion would include for example the Edinburgh International Festival and the Haye-on-Wye Book Festival.

It also makes an argument for the end of event-led tourism of that type which would include film festivals, many sporting events including the Olympics and so on.......

It does make an argument for festivals to be held in a secure site as Glastonbury and other large rock concerts are - for EDDC would then show a clear and measurable profit, they would be able to charge a promoter for the use of an arena which belongs to them, and charge a brewery or take a percentage of the profits etc. etc. handing over the organisation to a promoter. Costs could be estimated and measured against this charge. It may be that Sidmouth would not be a suitable venue for such a festival and thus the whole thing closes - as it may yet do of course. It may be that such a festival is not attractive to the current audience.

The festival would clearly then become a wholly commercial event - and EDDC may or may not show a profit depending on the skill of the promoter etc.

As far as the AFO reports are concerned, the research into audience profiles presented in the reports do confirm my own albeit anecdotal evidence of the audience that go to folk festivals - as anyone who goes to festivals will confirm that ABC1's (as they are wrongly called) are by far the largest social group. Indeed the cost of attendance at Sidmouth means you must have a decent family income to simply pay for the tickets, never mind incidental expenditure.

Finally the figures that are quoted as to economic benefits sometimes (I would guess) include an economic "multiplier" which accounts for the wildly differing figures.

Best regards,

Dave Eyre
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

PS. Any relation to the guy who invented the Apple computer?

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST,steve in sidmouth
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 06:38 PM

Thank you Dave, for thoughtful comments. I sent you an email about three minutes ago suggesting you look at my site....you beat me to it. I am highly supportive of the festival as an event in Sidmouth - it is one reason why I moved here (so did several people I know).

I'll reply later on the economics - this is a hurried reply just for now. My principal gripe is with people accepting whatever figures are thrown into the air and basing policy on them. I have worked with economists so know a little about the subject - the AFO report is just so insubstantial, as are figures used by EDDC.

The festival should not in my view have to 'make a profit' and Sidmouth should be very glad it has such an event in town (profit from it or not in narrow financial terms).What is wrong is the model, whereby it is presently excluded from (say) Arts Council funding because it is run as a business.

I put the webpages together so people could get a much better idea of how things were viewed down here, instead of just reading the national press. The argument about traders not making a lot out of the festival has been going on for years - some do, some don't but you need firm figures and some logic on which to base arguments and these have been sadly lacking from Council debate.

My preferred model would be for EDDC just to 'give' the use of land etc much as now and keep out of the organising as much as possible. Arts Council and/or a commercial sponsor would be needed unless perhaps some money could be saved by altering the structure to reduce costs without affecting the income too much.

More later.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 04:08 AM

Hi Steve,

I would imagine that any model that would avoid the present conflict with people whether they be local Sidmouth residents or those who feel they could organise the festival better/smaller/larger/differently is that I am it has been well explored by the current organisers. In particular I would imagine that most avenues of funding have been explored fully.

I am not sure how the organisation and structure of the festival - and I am glad to have it explained to me - precludes Arts Council or any other grants, though it certainly seems to do so. Organisations such as the Royal Opera House, Royal Shakespeare Company and Royal Ballet seem to attact grants and seem to be run as businesses, albeit nothing like as succesfully as Sidmouth International Festival.

Perhaps it should become the Royal Sidmouth Festival?

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 04:23 AM

First paragraph should read "I am sure".....

Dave

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST,Steve in Sidmouth (www.seered.co.uk)
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 06:08 AM

Dave: Good question - thanks for the prompt - I'll put some more explanation on my website. Five minutes work on google and in the chariy commission website brought up all three of the organisations you mentioned and the OBJECTS of the main or subsidiary charities are as follows - lifted from the CC website. People in the folk world are already looking into a similar arrangement for Sidmouth - but without the Royal, maybe?? The present arrangement (as a professionally run business)prevents Arts Council funding : see my page folk18.htm (so far as I recall it is 18) for a brief discussion.

ROYAL OPERA HOUSE.::TO PROMOTE AND ASSIST IN THE ADVANCEMENT OF EDUCATION SO FAR AS SUCH PROMOTION AND ASSISTANCE SHALL BE OF A CHARITABLE NATURE AND IN PARTICULAR, TO RAISE THE ARTISTIC TASTE OF THE COUNTRY, AND TO PROCURE AND INCREASE THE APPRECIATION AND UNDERSTANDING OF THE MUSICAL ART IN ALL ITS FORMS. (SEE MEMORANDUM AND ARTICLES OF ASSOCIATION

ROYAL SHAKESPEARE.:: TO KEEP ALIVE THE MEMORY OF SHAKESPEARE BY THE PRESENTATION OF HIS PLAYS. (SEE ALSO ARTICLE II OF THE CHARTER OF INCORPORATION).

ROYAL BALLET (SCHOOL).:: THE PRIMARY OBJECT IS TO CONDUCT AND MAINTAIN THE SCHOOL IN ALL RESPECTS AS A CHARITY, AND TO APPLY THE PROPERTY AND INCOME OF THE SCHOOL FOR CHARITABLE PURPOSES ONLY. FURTHER OBJECTS ARE (I) TO CONDUCT A SCHOOL FOR THE EDUCATION OF BOYS AND GIRLS IN THE BALLET, AND FOR PROVIDING SCHOLASTIC EDUCATION FOR SUCH OF THE SAID BOYS AND GIRLS AS ARE BY LAW REQUIRED TO RECEIVE SUCH EDUCATION; (II) TO RECEIVE, EDUCATE AND TRAIN STUDENTS IN BALLET, DRAMA, DANCING, SINGING, MUSIC AND OTHER ARTS. (FOR FULL DETAILS SEE CLAUSE 4 OF MEMORANDUM OF ASSOCIATION)

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 06:02 PM

I can't justify buying a week ticket because I do not attend things in Sidmouth which require tickets, and I might only be there for a day or two.

I sing in the various venues, play on the promenade, avoid the louder events because I can't stand the noise. I did go to arena events for many years but I found I needed to take ear defenders in order to take it down below my pain threashold, so I stopped going.

I have not been able to go for a whole week for the last 25 years, so I go where I do not need a ticket and find that I can fill my time quite easily.

I do take money with me to spend, but almost always come home with most of it. Since people have been burning their own cds I have managed to spend a bit more, and got some good music. I think the problem is that the things for sale are not what I want to buy - I always go and look around the stands and stalls in the area around the arena, but it is very rare that I see anything I want. I have asked for things like a particular type of capo or a replacement drum skin, but not found them.

Perhaps if there was something I could spend my money on and have it go towards the running of the festival it would not be in such difficulties - there might be many more people like me who carry money around ready to hand it over and find no reason to do so. The rest of my family are not interested in folk music, and I have to insist that I go, and justify what I spend.
Anne

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 10:34 AM

There's a rumour going around that Sidmouth already has some funding for next year, is this correct?

Sal

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Bob H
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 01:12 PM

Steve (from Sidmouth) states that Sidmouth can't get funding because its run as business. How is "run as a business" defined?

Sidmouth is a structured as a company limited by guarantee (not by shares) and is therefore non-profit making. The running of the festival is contracted out to Mrs Casey Music. This arrangement is very common in the arts so I don't see how it can exclude funding. If there was good financial reasons to change it I'm sure Steve would do! Am I missing something?

Then there is The Freinds of Sidmouth Festival who are are registered charity...

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Kate
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 02:03 PM

I've followed this thread for a while and have been interested in what people have to say about the festival. I feel moved to add my own thoughts as the festival's been so influential to my life. Although I've been going since I was five (I'm now in my mid 20s) I have usually stuck to the fringe events. More recently I've stewarded, but this is the first year that I've treated myself to a full season ticket. I love seeing the performers along the seafront and going to the Anchor, the Volunteer and the other free fringe events. I've grown up with the Middle Bar Singers and have many good friends at the festival. But over the last few years of buying the odd day ticket and stewarding I've been able to go to the bigger events including the Late Night Extra and staying on the main camp site. What I really appreciate about the festival is that even now there are things there that I enjoy. As a child the festival was magical, even when we didn't have that much money to go to the paying events. I expect if I'm lucky and the festival is still going when I'm elderly I'll find things there for me then as well. I'd be gutted if the festival stopped. I know there are problems that go hand in hand with its size but that also provides the amazingly wide selection of things to do. Where else is there such a thriving fringe festival along side such a diverse festival. Maybe its not to everyones tastes but there are plenty of other small quality festivals and this in its own right is a great event. I also know that it is extremely expensive and I feel very fortunate that I can afford a ticket this year. It deffinately hurt handing over my credit card number but if you consider it's for a whole week and compare it to other events of it size its pretty comparable. Again there is also plenty to enjoy free on the fringes. I expect the management will have to find a very different way of working- Steve in Sidmouth described how the Royal Opera House, the Royal Shakespeare Company and the Royal Ballet School all play an added educational role (maybe that's an idea for Sidmouth?) I really hope that they'll be able to save it.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 03:01 PM

Sidmouth already has a full programme of workshops that are far more diverse than anything the above-mentioned institutions can provide.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 04:58 PM

Well it's St Swithin's day and it hasn't rained yet here today (Edinburgh 9.45.p.m.) so let's hope it hasn't in Sidmouth, and that'll be a good omen for the future.
I am married to a Sidmouthian who is not really that bothered about the Festival, but doesn't mind if I go. I would be very upset if there were no more festival. I still feel a week's season ticket is amazing value for money (=approx 3 or 4 premier football matches, 6-8 hours worth as opposed to the whole week!)and wish more festivals would adopt the practice of having an all-events pass. I also attend alot of "fringe"/free events. Having just been to a festival elsewhere where the local traders did put in a lot of sponsorship, I think this should be actively sought out from those who currently benefit from their increased trade during the festival week (some of whom do contribute, but not enough of them)
TB

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Bob H
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 07:08 PM

Sponsorship of the local traders has been actively ought for many years to no avail. Well, if they won't feed the goose that lays the golden egg....

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: GUEST,Steve in Sidmouth
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 05:41 PM

If there is any news locally I will post it, but chances are I may be the last to know (after all, I only live here!). Latest news as I know it will be on www.seered.co.uk/folk24.htm
together with local weather (don't believe the regional forecasts, we can have ten lots of weather in Devon and Cornwall at the same time). The funding problem is mentioned on /folk18.htm of the same website - basically it is a matter of the festival itself being run as a business that precludes Arts Council funding - so I have been told.

Most folkies want the festival to continue but the number of locals who are keen to the point of actually wanting to help is very low, the number of anti-festival locals is quite sizeable and the overall fraction of apathetic locals is about 93%. The topic has dropped out of the local paper completely - we are back to shock horror stories of a few weeds spoiling the town for Britain in Bloom - www.seered.co.uk/bloomers.htm


P.S. Anyone interested in hiring an old caravan for the week? I could tow it to the site and pitch it for you, all you have to do is live in it. Fee by negotiation but you would have to agree with Festival that you would be, in effect, bringing a caravan which at this late stage may not be possible as spaces on site have to be reserved at time of ordering ticket, so I believe. One double bed (quite comfy) but no equipment of any type.

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 06:10 PM

Most folkies want the festival to continue but the number of locals who are keen to the point of actually wanting to help is very low, the number of anti-festival locals is quite sizeable and the overall fraction of apathetic locals is about 93%.

Below the belt Steve!!:-)>

Carefully conducted survey? Number of people questioned? Total responses? Any close focus groups? Social class of correspondents? Date of survey? All these are quoted in the AFO report.

I am sure you would not wish to bandy figures about without factual support!! :-)>

Dave Eyre
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 06:14 PM

I ought to have made it plain that the first two lines of that last post were a quotation form Steve's previous post!!

Dave

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 06:19 PM

Steve in Sidmouth.

Can you please email me with the terms for your caravan: [e-mail]

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 06:33 PM

Subject: RE: 50th and last Sidmouth festival?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 06:39 PM

Steve....

Your link from folk18 is a bit disparaging about the MHM report.
The size and track record of MHM we can argue about but.....

These reports are based on an independent research study undertaken by Morris Hargreaves McIntyre. 4,294 adult festival goers completed short questionnaires at a range of six different folk festivals in England during July, August and September 2002. A further representative, weighted sample of 450 of these adults then completed long questionnaires during October 2002. A sample of these respondents then attended focus group discussions in December 2002. Market size data was calculated from attendance records gathered by the Association of Festival Organisers.........

looks like carefully constructed sampling and data collection to me.

Dave Eyre
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk