Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: TS
Date: 20 May 04 - 01:48 PM

Guess it sometimes pays off to actually read more then just afew threads...Slainte!

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: Amos
Date: 20 May 04 - 01:05 PM

Well, golleee, eh? The thangs you learn ont he Cat!!

A

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: TS
Date: 20 May 04 - 01:05 PM

Thanks for the tip Gest. Wouldnt have figured it out otherwise...Slainte!

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: GEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 12:36 PM

All joking aside (as is my nature). :-)

Maritime provinces - The Canadian provinces of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island, bordering on the Atlantic Ocean. They were politically distinct until joining the Canadian confederation in 1867. The word "Maritimes" is a misnomer as it does not exist. Cape Breton, in spite of many opinions to the contrary is not a province of Canada, but an island within the province of Nova Scotia.

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 19 May 04 - 04:42 PM

When I occasionally use the term "maritime" music, it's in reference to chanteys and other songs of the sea. These songs may, but usually don't, come from Canada's Maritime province.

"Celtic" music refers broadly to music from the Celtic lands -- Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Brittany, Isle of Man, Galiza, etc. -- or music played in the styles of those lands. Much of the Maritime provinces' populations are descended from Scottish and Irish immigrants, so it's not surprising that there'd be a lot of Celtic music in their traditions.

Smithsonian Folkways has a new compilation CD coming out next week of sea songs called "Classic Maritime Music from Smithsonian Folkways Recordings." None of the performers on it are from the Maritime provinces. The only Canadian included is the late Alan Mills of Montreal.

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From:
Date: 19 May 04 - 03:38 PM

Willie-O, and we're the most important one of all.

As a friend says, Cape Breton's the island that the continent of North America is attached to by the Canso Causeway!

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: TS
Date: 18 May 04 - 04:02 PM

hahahahhahaaaaaaaa.......

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: ToulouseCruise
Date: 18 May 04 - 03:14 PM

psst, Reel.....

www.toulousecruise.com....

[e-mail]...

you know what to do with it...

;-)

Brian.

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: TS
Date: 18 May 04 - 02:39 PM

Indeed...I knwo the building where Tom was living before adopted..its now a RC Church actually..check out the Rollo Bay Fiddle Festival..its every Summer in Rollo Bay, PEI. ..definately cute and single...plays a mean fiddle too!....slainte!

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: ToulouseCruise
Date: 18 May 04 - 02:00 PM

Gotta open that one, Reel....

Stompin Tom was born in Saint John (hereby shortened to SJ), not to be confuses with St John's (SJs). His mother was forced to give him to the Children's Protection Services of the day, and he was adopted by a family in Skinners Pond, PEI (aka Prince Edward Island, the Island, Home of the SpudMuffins).

Not many Souris people in my address book, I'm afraid... despite there only being 125,000 or so on the Island, I have yet to meet each one... but if she is cute and single I could make an extra effort...

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: TS
Date: 18 May 04 - 09:18 AM

Haha..well..the last few posts have interested me....maybe its the fact that the Flatlands are different from the "Down-East Canadian Maritime Provinces" in one major way...the sun doesn't rise at 4am in Halifax, and never will...we'll leave it at that. I never thought of Maine being "Down East" to an American...also holding my map upside down I guess...that puts us around Cuba doesnt' it? ...Willie-O...yeah...I conformed..been told I'm from St. John's, NB. too many times so I stick with a simple "SJ" now...also told a Caper here at work about your statement and he came to work today with his "CB Flag"....Brian...my fiddle player hails from Souris, PEI. She's a member of the Chaisson Family of PEI.....closing with this..time to go to work...many people have commented on Don Messer...how about Stompin' Tom..a born "SJer"...or would we rather not even open that can?.....Slainte!

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: Willie-O
Date: 17 May 04 - 09:41 PM

SJ? Jeeziz, what happened to the sacred convention of spelling out the Saint as well as the John so as not to confuse the already-confused with St. John's Newfoundland?

There are four Maritime provinces: New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island and Cape Breton. Ask any Cape Bretoner!

Heh heh.

W-O

Hiya Reel Brew. In reference to your original question, it sort of depends whether they capitalized Maritime, don't ya think?

Etymologically over my head here...but to a question like that, you can really make up any bullshit ya like, they'll buy it.

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 May 04 - 12:59 PM

To most Americans, "down east" means Maine and the other New England states. The Canadian "down east" is equivalent; I have heard it often here in Alberta (western Canada).

I have heard that the term developed in the 19th century, when Boston was a favorite shopping and cultural center (centre) for both the Maritimes. This could be fakelore.

The term Celtic is widespread in North America in non-Clintonian usage. Nowadays, the ancient Celts don't make no nevermind, to use a Texanism. "Cowboy Celtic" is popular here in western Canada.

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: ToulouseCruise
Date: 17 May 04 - 11:17 AM

Hmmm, the US refers to Maine as being "Down East"... I think they are directionally challenged, or maybe I'm holding the map upside down.

Reel: We're hoping to hit SJ this summer or fall. We've been to Summerside PEI (my home town) and into the Miramichi area already, Fredericton, SJ, and Amherst NS are our next intended victims.

Brian.

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: Nerd
Date: 14 May 04 - 05:35 PM

I would agree with George, also because in the US Down East often means Maine, and Acadien often means Cajun...

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From:
Date: 14 May 04 - 05:07 PM

Unfortunately, amongst the fiddle tradition, there is Down East music, which relates to the Don Messer, and there are Irish, Scottish, Acadien and Cape Breton styles. Many tunes in common with different styles of embellishment. All lovely.

Atlantic Canadian Music is the most encompassing term, I think, with the least alternative connotations.

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: TS
Date: 13 May 04 - 07:19 PM

Silver...thats what I have ended up doing...however..when you're playing in Sask or Manitoba they tend to take ONtario as being Down east..haha...its a lose-lose..."down-east" does work when needed though!....SLainte!

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: HiHo_Silver
Date: 13 May 04 - 06:19 PM

Probably a better definition is "Down East Music" A term covering pretty well all the music of the east coast of Canada. Don Messer's music was classed as Down East style and was basicly a style of fiddle playing adapted by many from down east. Cape Breton had a bit different style and referred to Cape Breton or celtic. Newfoundland
was a different style again and usually had a butt on accordion in their bands And leans toward the Irish style. Along the french shore was a style referred to as acadian.

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: TS
Date: 13 May 04 - 03:50 PM

Brian, do you ever get down to the Saint John area for gigs? I'm a Saint Johner now living in Sask. and playing the music. We get Keiths, Moose, and Screech so its not that hard to get the flatlanders into it!...Slainte!

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: ToulouseCruise
Date: 13 May 04 - 09:43 AM

George,

We are called "Toulouse Cruise", based out of Moncton. We ain't dat special, trust me! It is just a little part time thing that a friend and I have going... you can check us out at www.toulousecruise.com . We are adding some new video and sound clips in the next couple of weeks that were recorded this past Saturday at the Pump House Brewery here...

Don't say you haven't been warned!

Brian.

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: mooman
Date: 12 May 04 - 06:34 PM

At least from my experience of travelling in NS, CB and PEI, Canadian maritime traditional is for the most part a development of the music of the mainly Scottish settlers plus some mixed in and separate elements of Acadian (the original French settlers) music. I love playing this music for the lift and rhythm in it (although Irish myself). The Newfie music is essentially more Irish-based although, again, some great stuff.

Can't wait to get back over!

Peace,

moo

P.S. What's happened concerning the proposed 2006 Mudcat WorldGathering? There was previous talk of this taking place somewhere in Nova Scotia, possibly utilizing local university rooms and facilities out of term.

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 May 04 - 06:01 PM

This is all very interesting. I'm heading out in this direction in October to have a look round, so i'm very intrigued by this discussion.

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From:
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:43 PM

Brian, what's the name of your duo, and where are you based in the Maritimes?

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: ToulouseCruise
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:53 AM

Just tossing in my two-senseless worth..

My duo performs a lot of this style of music. We call it Maritime or Celtic or Traditional, depending on the song. We cover songs from Great Big Sea from Newfoundland, Spirit of the West from Western Canada, and variations on some songs direct from Ireland... We're based in The Maritimes (yes, the Canadian one) and find that the name of the genre isn't that important, it is more the enthusiasm for the music....

Brian.

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From:
Date: 11 May 04 - 06:22 PM

For more specific information on some of the music of Newfoundland, have a look at:

Newfoundland Music Links

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: TS
Date: 11 May 04 - 06:19 PM

Well..I certainly didnt mean to piss anyone off, be derogatory, or racial. I was saying "celtic" and "Maritime" as generic terms. I am First Generation Canadian, born to a lovely couple from Ireland in a Maritime Province, having gone to school in Newfoundland. Sorry for generalizing. No one ever did answer the question though. And furthermore, "Almost Famous" is a great movie! Recommended to be seen by any musician who loves the road, and all the interesting peopl you can meet in your travels!....Slainte!

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: Nerd
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:34 PM

Oops, I meant to say that the CDs are pretty old-fashioned, not the people.

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: Nerd
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:33 PM

Hmmm, I see what you mean. There are some CDs by groups or artists who are old enough that they were already playing and singing by 1949, but most of the records have been made in the post 1949 period. There are people like Dorman Ralph (singing, plus tunes on harmonica and accordion), Anita Best (singing) and Minnie White (accordion) which are pretty old-fashioned.

But Newfoundland was also the site of American military bases, so they had jazz, r & b and rock from the get-go, and a lot of that stuff was already affecting the indigenous music culture by the time recordings were being made.

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:23 PM

Thank you very much, I think I've got it now. Another point, are there readily available recordings of traditional music from this area from (say) pre-1950? I've heard a bit of modern sort of "Celtified" stuff, but it seems heavily influenced by the folk revival in the British Isles and various Irish and Scottish groups post-1960. I qould be interested to hear what the actual indigenous stuff sounded like before these influences came in. Is there a good anthology...singing or fiddling?

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: Nerd
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:16 PM

It was a crown colony of Britain, so technically when in Newfoundland you were in Great Britain.

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:12 PM

Sometimes an answer confuses further. So, if Newfoundland joined Canada in 1949, what country was it in before that?

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: Nerd
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:07 PM

Oops, I see George got there first. But he substantially confirmed what I thought I knew, so thanks!

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: Nerd
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:05 PM

Good question, Greg. "The Maritime Provinces" or just "The Maritimes" was a regional designation already before Newfoundland became part of Canada, with a well-established identity. Most Newfoundlanders felt when they joined Canada in 1949 that they did not join the region, and there are significant cultural differences. Canadians have now created the designation "Atlantic Canada" which includes both the Maritimes and Newfoundland.

It's sort of like asking why New York isn't part of New England. The reasons have to do with regional history and regional marketing rather than logic.

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From:
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:04 PM

In Canada, the Maritime Provinces had been since early into Confederation, consisted of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island.

Newfoundland, now Newfoundland and Labrador, only joined Confederation in 1949. Their premier often billed himself as the "only living Father of Confederation".

So, when we talk about the Maritimes in Canada, we don't include Newfoundland. To include the excellent Newfoundlander music, we would call it Atlantic Canadian Music.

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: DonMeixner
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:00 PM

Maritime music is music sung by maritimers and other such Newfies, Celtic music is music sung by very tall men from Boston.

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 May 04 - 03:55 PM

For those of us who are non-Canadians, can someone explain why Newfoundland music isnt maritime? it's all a bit confusing.

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: Nerd
Date: 11 May 04 - 03:48 PM

I haven't seen the movie. Maybe that would make sense if I had...

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 May 04 - 03:18 PM

"Perhaps it pissed Clinton off"

"I dig music...."
-Billy Crudup as "Russell Hammond" In "Almost Famous"-

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: Nerd
Date: 11 May 04 - 03:12 PM

Clinton is only partially right. Of the ancient Celts, only some Carnyxes remain. However, the Gaelic Irish and Scottish are as "Celtic" as the ancient Celts, and they do have music, much of which they brought to the Maritimes.

Whether this music resembles ancient Celtic music is anyone's guess. However, ReelBrew did not seem to me to be asking about that, nor to be making political or racial judgments. Perhaps it pissed Clinton off, but one has to be pretty willing to be pissed off for that question to do it.

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 May 04 - 01:30 PM

All, eventually come over to the dark side...

You have taken the first steps, my young padawan...

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: ranger1
Date: 11 May 04 - 01:26 PM

Oh, dear God, the world is coming to an end! I agree with something ClintonHammond has said!!!!

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 May 04 - 11:09 AM

Last time I checked there was no music (outside of remnants of some bone 'whistles' and pieces of a few carnax's) left from the 'celts'...

This is why such 'labels' on music are useless outside of their ability to p1ss people off...

Subject: RE: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: Nerd
Date: 11 May 04 - 10:53 AM

Maritime of course has more than one meaning. If you're talking strictly Maritime Canada (which by the way excludes Great Big Sea as Newfoundland is not part of the Maritimes) then in many ways Maritime music is a subset of Celtic music. But it also contains Acadian music with continental Latinate/French influences. So you can say it's a hybrid of Celtic, English and French musics native to Eastern Canada, or for simplicity you can say it's Celtic music with French and English influences.

Maritime also carries the meaning of seafaring music. This would include things like Norwegian shanties. I assume this isn't what you mean.

Subject: Trad. Maritime VS. Trad. Celtic
From: TS
Date: 11 May 04 - 12:49 AM

Here's one for the pondering. I had a newspaper interview not long ago and the question was asked..."What is the difference between Maritime music and Celtic music?"...I was at a loss, not expecting it, and went on some ramble comparing the Chieftains to Natalie McMaster; Danu to Great Big Sea; I didn't know what to say. Compared the "old Stuff" by the Clancy's, etc. to more modern lads like Stan Rogers (despite being from Ontario) and John Allen Cameron. So...in short...some guidance from those of you who may have been cornered with the same question. The think I walked into the question, however, as I defined the Band's style as "Traditional Maritime/ Celtic".......Slainte