BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 04:25 PM

Bullshit.

women are to be blamed for not leaving the toilet seat up.

Ok. I'll give you that. But in my case it's probably better that I put the seat down. If I leave it up, I accidently drop things in the toilet.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 04:12 PM

Bullshit.

women are to be blamed for not leaving the toilet seat up.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 03:07 PM

I'm not a big fan of "blame" no matter who it's directed against, Martin. There are so many more productive ways of addressing problems than flinging blame around. And blame is often used as a way for people to avoid acknowleging their own culpability anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 02:59 PM

No, Nerd part right. The only real reasons to have a problem with Islams is that right now, there isn't that much terrorism being done being done while chanting any other diety.

Although Islam doesn't do much for me, it's the ACT of praising one's god while committing attrocities. I would think the same if they were fundamentalist Christians praising Jesus. Hmmmm, didn't that happen during the Crusades?

And no CarolC., it's not OK in any shape or form. But you're always looking for a way to deflect any blame on any Arabs, aren't you? Makes you wonder who YOU know or connected to in the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 01:04 AM

Actually, what MG objects to isn't so much the beheading people as the praising of Allah. Islam really gets his goat...

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 05:51 PM

So it's ok to behead people if you're not wearing a hood or praising Allah when you do it, and if you do it privately or in secret. Ok. Got that.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 05:45 PM

Mted, I heard that story. were the ones responsible wearing hoods and praising Allah? did they videotape for all to see. what a crock of shit to bring that up!

Mted. go look at an apple and an orange. Duh. They're different!

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 04:08 PM

Is it perfectly clear that it was Iraqis who did this terrible thing? I thought that Al Quaeda were outsiders.

There is no justification for this act of barbarism. But is it a reaction that needs to be explained? People don't do hideous things like this without some kind of agenda that needs to be understood. To dismiss this horrible act as being that of a sub-human or evil person is missing the point and begging the question.
Why? Don't we need to be asking this? This was not an act by a hungry tiger.

How did this branch of psuedo-Islam become so distorted?

For that matter, why are there madrasas popping up all over the place?

Is this to be interpreted as a "holy war"? Who are the real combatants, here?

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 03:36 PM

Though it gives me no pleasure to point this out, Martin, you are off the mark again--this news item has been in the minds of people in the Maryland, DC, and Northern Virginia for the last month:

Baltimore Sun > news

>3 children slain in apartment

>Police describe 'gruesome' scene in N.W. Baltimore; victims ages 9 and 10





>Originally published May 28, 2004

>The bodies of three young children - one decapitated, two partially beheaded - were found in an >apartment in a quiet Northwest Baltimore neighborhood yesterday, and detectives were questioning >a man about the murders.

>The mothers of the children discovered the bodies hours after the youngsters had returned from >elementary school. It was a scene that would later stun even veteran city police officers.

For the full story, check:
Gruesome Murders Shock Quiet Baltimore Neighborhood

Follow-up stories, including the arrest of two suspects, are also available at the sight--what is not available is any kind of reason or motive--

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Metchosin
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 11:03 AM

thanks polaitaly, I think I got the definition specifically from this site, Wolfgang.

Capital Punishment

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: polaitaly
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 08:38 AM

Wolfgang, I think Metchosin is right on the explanation for "capital". In latin, for what I know, the first meaning of "caput" is "head" ,and "capitalis" is " regarding the head " also metaphorically speaking, the first thing, the most important. Sometimes in ancient italian chronicles you could find the death penalty called "la pena del capo", the punishment of the head, even if the way of execution was not the beheading.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 09:44 PM

Actually, the only humans who seem to be doing this in the 21st century are these fucking Islamic extremists who hate just about everything the western world represents.

Are there any other humans beheading people currently and chanting praises to their god while doing it?

We're not just talking any mammal now.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 11:44 AM

Thanks, I see what you meant, Wolfgang.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 11:41 AM

Metchosin,

if you refind the site with this explanation for 'capital' I'd be interested to see it.

I have learned it differently (which doesn't mean it's right): 'Kaput' was 'main' and only one later meaning was head.

That makes more sense to me in the context of the several other meanings of the word capital.

BTW, I live in a town in which three murders per year are considered unacceptably high.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 11:27 AM

Nerd,

I'm of course in agreement with many of your arguments in your response, but then I never had an issue with them before. In particular, I have no issue with you about the word 'inhuman'. My only minor point was this:

I consider your implicit argument Now name a MAMMAL species of which members semi-regularly decapitate other members wrong for it equates lack of knowledge with lack of existence.

That was my only point and not all the other things you have addressed. And whether the frequency of a behaviour is called "a relative rarity" or whatever doesn't really interest me. Numbers do, not verbal labels.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 02:29 AM

I agree DougR. We just meant different things by "human" vs. "subhuman." I meant it empirically, you meant it morally.

But we both agree the beheading sucked, and that we will not have terrorists to tea!

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DougR
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 01:35 AM

Geeze, Nerd, maybe you should live in Germany! That's where Wolfgang lives.

I think our argument got tied up in semantics. You think it is wrong for someone to behead someone but see it as a practice that is common among humans. I agree that it is done by humans but is a subhuman practice. None of the terrorists will be invited to MY tea party.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 01:27 AM

I'm also not sure where Wolfgang lives, but I grew up in a city that registered almost three homicides a day in the year I was born.

That's just one city.

When Wolfgang says "we only consider it frequent because when there is a killing somewhere we are likely to hear or read about it," I can't agree. There are about two killings a day in New York City, and the same in Chicago, and here in Philadelphia I don't hear about any of them. I only hear about the two a day that happen here.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 05:51 PM

Yes. We not only favor capital punishment for minors in this country, we also have used capital punishment on people who were mentally retarded.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Metchosin
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 04:32 PM

What I did find in my search of which I was not aware, is that "the term capital comes from the Indo-European kaput, meaning "head". Thus, capital punishment is the penalty for a crime so severe that it deserves decapitation (losing one's head).

Also somethings of which I was also unaware, 90% of world's state sanctioned capital punishment occurs in four countries. The People's Republic of China, Iran, Saudi Arabia and the United States and surprizingly, The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, which forbids capital punishment for juveniles, has been signed by all countries except the USA and Somalia.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 03:44 PM

Thank you, Metchosin.

Exactly my point was made in Metchosin's link: beheading was popular until modern times in Germany, Sweden, France and other countries. The last time a person was beheaded by the government of France was not 1777 or even 1877, but 1977.

It's easy to say "these terrorists are inhuman." Would we say the same about European culture in the 1970s? (Some of us might, but the rest of us would see this as mere partisanship).

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Metchosin
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 03:25 PM

The Very Human History of the Guillotine

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 03:05 PM

I can't believe you revived this thread for this issue, Wolfgang! But since you did, here is my response.

I disagree with Wolfgang because, taking a historical position, there have been times and places when decapitation was much more common. Paris in 1799, for example, and other times when it was a recognized form of execution. Therefore our hypothetical foreign astronaut, if he were also a time-traveler, could look at various historical documents and find out exactly where to go if he wanted to observe large numbers of humans being decapitated by other humans. If you tried to do this with lions you would fail, because there is no such time or place.

I agree that it is rare. So is the juggling of bowling balls. But we would not say "juggling bowling balls is inhuman." And I WOULD venture to say that humankind "semi-regularly" engages in the juggling of bowling balls; that is, it is not unbelievably anomalous, just a relative rarity.

My point is this: to say "this behavior is inhuman" merely enables us to sweep it aside and not bother to try to understand it so that we can combat it. It's like the people who say "the terrorists bomb us because they hate freedom." It's essentially meaningless.

The behavior was human, because humans did it. Moreover, humans perform this particular kind of behavior (decapitation) more than most other species (except some insects and arachnids, as Beardedbruce points out). I don't want to suggest that other animals wouldn't if they could; chimpanzees have been observed "at war," for example, but you can't decapitate someone with a stick.

Decapitation of a member of one's own species is something that few other species have the wherewithal or the occasion to do. Humans do it far more often. Thus if we need to decide if it is "human" or "inhuman," an emprical, rational, historical approach would make it necessary for us to conclude that it is more human than inhuman.

Like juggling bowling balls, this does not mean it is very common, or acceptable, or morally good. But if we want to stop it, it's better to look for its causes in human psychology than to claim it's so alien we can't possibly understand it.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 12:58 PM

Now name a MAMMAL species of which members semi-regularly decapitate other members.

There is none, not even homo sapiens does it "semi-regularly".

Two decades ago, or a bit longer, some people even tried to defend the notion that only humans kill their own species. The reason for that wrong notion was that killing other humans is luckily a rare behaviour. That is a foreign astronaut watching our behaviour would have to wait for a very long time before seeing a killing. We only consider it frequent because when there is a killing somewhere we are likely to hear or read about it.

Animal watching at those times was usually done over a fairly short time compared to the frequency of same species killings. Longer observations have shown that nearly all predators do the occasional same species killing, even our next in kin (chimps). Some species kill and even eat the same species fairly regularly (lions, polar bears). And among those eating patterns there are some cruel looking details.

Among humans killing humans which is rare to start with, decapitations are rare again which makes any decapitation an extremely rare behaviour which normally no one observes, except that this extremely rare behaviour makes it to the media.

The observation periods for to be able to see one animal decapitation under the assumption that it occurs about as often as among humans are not yet long enough to be able to tell that they only happen in the human species. They may happen with the same frequency as in humans or they may not happen at all. We just don't know yet.

Your question implicitely does not compare similarly long periods of observation. With humans, we know it happens, with other mammals we have not sufficient data. From the present absence of evidence one should not infer the evidence of absence.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 07:02 PM

Good one, BeardedBruce! ;-)

Now name a MAMMAL species of which members semi-regularly decapitate other members.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: jack halyard
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 04:47 PM

Firstly, The horror of the experience for the individual victim must be unimaginable. The shock experienced by loved ones deep and unbearable. Whatever may be my values regarding this needless and messy war, My heart goes out to those who suffer first and worst.

It is difficult to understand the motivations of those who cold-bloodedly inflict horror. To become hardened to the act of inflicting such experiences face to face with the victim raises serious questios about beliefs and life experience. What has happened to these men that such brutality comes easily?

I am reminded that tens of thousands of black Americans are still waiting on Death Row for courts to determine their fate. Maybe the injection is less nasty than the Electric chair, shooting or the gas chamber, but years of imprisonment and active imagination must be a similar acute horror and dread.

Those of us non-Americans who watch the US gun-culture at its murderous work, with children butchering each other at school, worry that the world's policeman is becoming as dehumanised as many of those they police in their overseas wars.

War dehumanises its practitioners. Abu Ghraib, The twin Towers, Hioshima and Nagasaki, and this string of brutal executions all tell the same story.

                                  Jack Halyard

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 03:00 PM

praying mantises

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 12:35 PM

Once again, DougR, you're not reading what I'm writing. I understand your position. You would like Humans to be perfect moral beings, and that's a noble aspiration.

We are not.

We do horrible, horrible things. Until recent historical times, it was the norm. Now, thank God, it is the exception in many places in the world. But, speaking empirically rather than morally, it is human. Humans have perpetuated crimes as serious as the Rwandan genocide and as trivial as Nigerian email scams. I disapprove of all of them. But to define behavior you particularly don't like as "inhuman" will do nothing to address the causes and effects of such behavior.

In fact, it is very obvious to anyone with any sense of history that a propensity for brutal violence is part of human nature, and that being a citizen of polite society is always a struggle against these violent impulses.

Again, this has nothing to do with "being easy on anyone." It's just empirically false and historically ridiculous to say such behavior is not human.

Or to put it another way, name a species of which members semi-regularly decapitate other members.

I think you'll get only one answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DougR
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 12:09 PM

Gee Nerd, I'm sorry. I certainly don't want anyone to become frustrated because I wrote something I believe and it happens not to coincide with what others believe.

I used the tea party analogy because it appears to me that you, and others, are entirely too "understanding" of the terrorists that commit such terrible acts. In other words, your posts on this subject appear to me as being entirely too tolerant of the terrorists behaviour. You say you do not approve of their behaviour, but believe that it is human behaviour to chop off somebody's head.

That kind of frustrates me too!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 08:14 PM

the interesting point on the beheadings - is that the terrorist group
behind them have correctly surmised that to the Western mind the act of beheading is inherently revolting, its somehow not right to separate the head from the body after death, and thus carries more shock and propaganda value, (although why should it be any worse than getting shot)
They are experts at using the internet and the media at getting world attention focussed on them. It gets noticed a lot more than just shooting someone.

Of course someone like Saddam would have found out which prisoners
they want released from Abu Graib in exchange and send their heads over.
In the early 80s when there was spate of kidnappings in lebanon
a couple of russian diplomats were kidnapped. One was killed during the kidnapping. The spetznaz (russian special service) guys found out which gang was responsible and sent a courier with one of their heads over. The diplomat was released and afterwards they steered clear of the Russians.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 02:51 PM

I don't know what the hell you're talking about, DougR. As always, you don't read my posts and then criticize me for them. Where did I say I wanted to have tea with anyone? I said that this particular kind of bad behavior is human. Probably no other animal does it. You are using "human" as a value judgement, a synonym for "well-behaved." I am using it in a descriptive sense, to mean "actions that characterize the human race."

I will quote from my above post:

DougR, I can't agree that this was "subhuman" or even as someone else said "medieval." Not because I have a higher opinion than you of the actions, but because I prefer to be honest about human behavior. In ancient times, the Romans crucified thousands. In medieval times, the inquisition committed horrible acts of execution on essentially innocent people, and so did practically every secular authority. In eighteenth century France, supposedly the height of culture of civilization, beheading was a common form of execution, and many of the victims had committed no crimes. In nineteenth century England, being "pressed into service" (ie kidnapped) meant that you had gone from life in a parliamentary monarchy to an absolute autocracy, where your human rights could be taken away on a whim. If you rebelled, you could be "flogged round the fleet," beaten to death with a cat-o-nine-tails while seized to the gratings of a succession of different vessels (similar to what the Romans did to Jesus). Black men have been lynched by southern whites within living memory. Don't forget slavery, the holocaust, "ethnic cleansing."

Human life, in most places and most times, has been violent. Our thin veneer of a hundred years or so of politeness in Western Europe and America falls away pretty quickly in wartime; witness the atrocities admitted by American soldiers in Viet Nam, and the atrocities carried out by the VC as well.

This beheading was pretty violent, no question. It was immoral, profane, disgusting.

Unfortunately, it was also a hundred percent human.

Now. Is there something there you don't understand?

Something that suggests a tea party?

Jeez, you can be frustrating sometimes!

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DougR
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 01:58 PM

Nerd: then I assume you would feel perfectly at ease sitting down at table and taking tea with the murderers since they are so "Human." Perhaps if you, Greg F., Sue B. and a few others would do that, you could listen to what is troubling them, do everything you can do to placate them, and they will leave us alone!

However should you decide to schedule your little tea party, you might want to request them to check their swords at the door. After all, they might not be as humane and forgiving as you and your other tea partners appear to be.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 09:45 PM

Sadly, yes, DougR. As I said many posts above, it is arguably uniquely human. What other animal not only kills but tortures its own species? Humans, as far as we can tell, have always done so. It's nice to think Humans don't do these things but we do.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DougR
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 07:39 PM

You folks STILL think the terrorists beheading folks in Iraq are NOT sub-human? Hmmm?

DougR

Subject: This just in: Iraqis NOT beheading anyone!
From: Nerd
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 02:11 AM

Yes, to belabor a point: once again people who were NOT IRAQI have beheaded an American. This time it did not even happen in Iraq! Wouldn't a new thread have been better than reviving this misleadingly named one?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Amy
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 01:59 PM

Looks like it has happened again.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 May 04 - 06:46 PM

i have added an article as a separate thread -

Who Killed Nick Berg?


it does raises questions, analyses the tape in detail. it was published in anAustralian paper on the weekend. article can also be found at -

http://smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/28/1085641717320.html
................................

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 30 May 04 - 04:58 PM

Berg, Berg, Berg---Sorry, Sorry, Sorry.
May he rest in peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Jim McCallan
Date: 30 May 04 - 02:22 PM

"That sometimes a simple question isn't a simple question"

Four words with a question mark after them is a 'simple question', Wolfgang.
With no inflection (as with the human voice, for instance), and when printed with no other contextual qualifier, what great leap of inference needs to be taken for it to become a presuppositional one?

The attitude of the beholder, I would suggest.

"Are you stupid?' is a simple question.
"No" is the simple answer

One can read between the lines too much, you know.
But when it is only one line that is written, one does a disservice to oneself if one doesn't take it at face value. At least initially.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 May 04 - 12:44 PM

Serious discussion, yeah right.

Georgiansilver, some views, to use an old cliche, people are entitled to. You are right to a degree, I don't take a lot of what goes on here seriously, just a lot of egos who have very little impact on anything that are way too busy being serious about subjects that they pretend to have all the answers for. You included. I hang out down here below the line when the music topics get to slow or are way too top heavy with or about navel gazing/picking singer songwriters insread of areas of folk music that I am interested in.

I don't know about you, but I'm having fun.

I in turn, reserve the right to my view, that those views border on extreme bullshit.

Guest, guest, it's Berg, not Burg. How typical.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 May 04 - 12:25 PM

My point, Jim? That sometimes a simple question isn't a simple question.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 28 May 04 - 10:30 PM

Getting back to the beheading business, I may be wrong, but I think that the young Burg fellow, missed a flight home because he was detained.
I also wonder what part Iraqi refugees play in this debate about freeing Iraq from a dictatorship. It would stand to reason that if free countries have to accept refugees then there should be some scrutiny (other than their word about persecution) about the country of origin. And would this imply an obligation to try to rectify the situation.
If refugees want to live in a democracy then perhaps they need to put their hand up and enter into this debate.
I know I will be branded racist for even questioning any rights or obligations refugees may or may not have.
LS

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 28 May 04 - 10:26 PM

"Jim, are you stupid?"
Wolfgang: 28 May 04 - 04:48 PM

No, just a darn sight more fluent in the English Language than you are. (16 words, with no question mark at the end)

Not meaning any 'nasty implication' here, neither.
Just stating fact.

Your point?

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 May 04 - 10:02 PM

This thread has lost its flavour. For the last 10+ posts it is all to do with people slagging off Martin G, while he in turn concentrates on ascribing expressions to people who haven't in fact used them ("quoting Hitler" indeed) or slagging people in turn ("are you a preacher or a dope?" , "dork-faced puke faces" etc).

Sheesh!

Serious discussion has gone out of the window. Good night all!

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 May 04 - 07:38 PM

Martin Gibson....I have read many of your replies to threads of all types and have come across nothing of any intellectual value for any of us from you. All you continue to do is slag people off for their views. Are you incapable of making serious comments in answer to other serious statements or is this just your bag. If you wish to join mature conversation then grow with it not against it. Learn something!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 04 - 06:39 PM

"Jim are you stupid?" actually implies that the questioner does not think Jim is stupid, but stubbornly refusing to accept his own logic. I suppose that means that it is not "a simple question". However anyone who got upset about a question like that would, I suggest, be acting a bit stupid.

I've got my personal filter on now. And I am sure I am not the only one.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 May 04 - 05:08 PM

well, ebbie, I am thinking very clearly. Obviously you are not because how would I know when you threw in the amish towel.

The sex was bad, wasn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 28 May 04 - 05:06 PM

Do you walk to school or carry your lunch?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 May 04 - 04:52 PM

Good Grief, Charlie Brown! Martin Gibson, I'm 68 years old. I left the Amish church at 17. Have you thought lately about putting your brain cells in gear so you can think??

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 May 04 - 04:51 PM

Georgiansilver are you a preacher or a dope?

I hope you are not "damaged."

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 May 04 - 04:48 PM

...just four words with a question mark after it (Jim)

Jim, are you stupid?
(just four words with a question mark after it)

Wolfgang (not meaning the nasty implication, just asking for the sake of the argument)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 May 04 - 02:01 PM

To disagree with words of personal attack are unnecessary and imflammatory and can be damaging to the "victim". Why be nasty...prove your point!!! don't belittle your opponent or challenger. I believe that our nastiness reveals more about us as individuals than about the people we attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:52 PM

Well, McGrath, we can all agree on some things....


"Of course that could be true of a great numnber of members, including me, and on the whole I'm glad the facility isn't available. Better to do the filtering ourselves as we go through the threads.

Here's a quote from a post made by a new member, Rabbi-Sol:

The wonderful thing about this forum is that we can discuss the issues as rational human beings, with mutual respect, even though many of us are on opposite sides of the issue. It is a lot better than shooting bullets and grenades at each other.

Amen. "

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:37 PM

you all read my posts so I guess that I am doing just fine in that department

If we had a filtering system which would filter out posts credited to individual members, I am afraid that a lot of people would probably use it to filter out Martin Gibson's posts.

Of course that could be true of a great numnber of members, including me, and on the whole I'm glad the facility isn't available. Better to do the filtering ourselves as we go through the threads.

Here's a quote from a post made by a new member, Rabbi-Sol:

The wonderful thing about this forum is that we can discuss the issues as rational human beings, with mutual respect, even though many of us are on opposite sides of the issue. It is a lot better than shooting bullets and grenades at each other.

Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:01 PM

Guest, I don't need to justify anything to you. You don't know me and obviously know one here knows you. You know so much about Hitler, maybe you are related to him. Wouldn't doubt it. Most people who quote Hitler to Jews are indeed Jew haters themselves.

McGrath, i don't have any misunderstanding with Jack the Sailor. I understand all to well that he is a dorface anti-American puke face. It's very obvious to me. No misunderstanding on my part. And
As for getting my point across, you all read my posts so I guess that I am doing just fine in that department. Keep reading Ebbie. Sorry you were so disappointed in finding out the truth. Must have been hard to take as you are probably one of the only Amish currently using a computer.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 04 - 04:41 AM

Martin Gibson, the fact you live in a mixed community does not make you immune to bigotry. Cities around the globe have been the sites of racial discord time and time again. Didn't Hitler start his career of agitation in a nice big city, and we all know how he ended up.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 04 - 05:16 PM

No excuse for that

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 04 - 12:41 AM

There's that "AA" word again ---- Anti-American

McCarthy come back ..... we need your clarification on a few things.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 May 04 - 06:44 PM

Coming out in a purple-faced rage spitting out insults isn't always the best way to deal with a situation where other people may disagree with us on some point.

If someone accuses me of being a bigot that indicates that they don't like bigots. If I am not bigot, that means that we are essentially in agreement some very important things, but that there has been a misunderstanding that needs to be cleared up. "Dorkface anti-American puke faces" isn't, I suggest, entirely the most effective way of clearing up such a misunderstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 26 May 04 - 06:20 PM

I always found that the most inadequate people resorted to name calling!!! Usually as they cannot handle the pressures of good communication. Getting ones point across is a good exercise but lowering oneself to name calling.....sad.
Be Blessed all.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 04 - 06:02 PM

Martin Gibson, your flailing is pathetic.

I don't think I'm anti-Semitic, incidentally- until I was 9 or so, I thought I and my family were Jews. My mother said, in astonishment, Whatever gave you that idea??

Near tears I stammered, I thought we were God's Chosen People. We wouldn't wear clothes like this if we weren't, would we?

I was Amish.

Back to your reasoning: If I were newly hatched, knowing nothing about conflicts, I would be not only taken aback by your bitter vehemence and the hatred you spew but I would certainly not be drawn to the cause you espouse. You, friend, are a one-trick pony. Honor your people, yes; work against anyone else ever considering implementing such an obscene plan, yes; (We are on your side, dammit) but someone gave you a bum steer when they told you this is the way to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 May 04 - 05:46 PM

Jack the Sailor

It is Arab Moslem fanatacs because that is what it is, jerko. It's not any other kind of fanatic or as you say just plain old fanatics.

As far as being a bigot you are such an idiot. You can't live in a big melting pot like Chicago and be a bigot. I work with and have neighbors of all creeds and nationalities. I have no problem with them.

I do have problems with dorkface anti-American puke faces like you who seem to blame Jews for much of their own problems and inadequecies in life.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 26 May 04 - 04:13 PM

I think in Missouri, they just say Show Me.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 May 04 - 04:09 PM

Still seems pretty simple to me - "I don't believe you are right. So convince me" A very reasonable attitude to have when someone tells you something that seems unlikely to be true.

It can be dangerous to fill in the gaps in what someone says with what we think they might be saying.

There's a story of two kings. One sent a letter to the other - but in the course of the journey the letter got damaged, so it read "Send me a team of your finest white horses - or else..."

The second king was a bit surprised at this. "That sounds like a threat to me" and he sent a letter back.

And the post got damaged this time as well, and when it rreached the first king it said "I have not got any white horses - if I did have any..." And the king got angry. "I sent him a polite request, and I get back this letter saying he wouldn't give me any horses even if he had them."

And the upshot was a terrible war. And eventually they fought each other to a standstill, and they had a peace negotiation.

"Why did you send that threatening letter?" said the first king - "Send me a team of your finest white horses - or else..."

The second king looked amazed. "I didn't send you a threatening letter. What I wrote was 'Please could you send me a team of your white horses - or else any other colour would do, if you can spare them'. And then I got your angry letter 'I have not got any white horses - if I did have any..."

And the second king looked embarrassed "But it wasn't a angry letter. What I wrote was "I have not got any white horses - if I did have any of course I would be happy to send you as many as you want."

And they both looked embarrassed.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 26 May 04 - 03:58 PM

Now you all are splitting hairs.

Yes, there are stupid books out there, and people actually read them. It could possibly be that the book is required reading to show the WRONG way of thinking. A contrary book, if you will.

Just an idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 26 May 04 - 03:31 PM

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, Wolfgang.

'Who told you this', on the other hand, are just four words with a question mark after it.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 May 04 - 02:37 PM

"What's your evidence" or "where from did you get this information" are completely different questions from "Who told you this".

The target question did presuppose that the poster did not come to the opinion by studying different sources, by comparing different accounts, or perhaps even by personal experience, however questionable personal experience might be. It implied that the poster came to this opinion simply by being told. The poster is seen in this formulation as a passive recipient of information unable to think critically.

I grant, dianavan, that the question may have been formulated without these implications in mind, but when SJ called it a low shot it might have been an indication that the question can be read differently from how it was intended.

My only intention in my post was to point out that calling this question 'simple' was wrong.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:22 PM

also Chief Chaos, the article refers to The John F Kennedy Special Warfare Center at Fort Bragg. Army, is it not?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 May 04 - 09:40 PM

Chief Chaos, the information came from here and apparently Hersh mentioned it in his New Yorker magazine article.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 25 May 04 - 09:05 PM

Wolfgang - I'm not sophisticated enough to ask a presuppositional question. I was dismayed by what he thought was truth and was curious to know where he/she got that information. Given the kid just returned from a hellish war, I didn't want to tell him/her that his/her facts were misguided or wrong. I just wanted to know the source. It was a simple question that could be asked in many different ways - depends on the intonation. Since you can't hear the tone of my voice, I think you are jumping to conclusions about my intent.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Buddhist helpline
Date: 25 May 04 - 05:24 PM

What anyone says about this..none of what has happened, which causes hurt or anguish to anyone else is necessary. No Country's residents can be forgiven for doing any of the things mentioned. No politician can be praised for condoning such atrocities.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 04 - 04:39 PM

I think "Who told you this?" and "Where are you getting your information? are essentially interchangeable questions. "Give me some reason why I should believe what you have just said.

When a new acquaintance tells us something which is inconsistent with what we have previously believed to be the truth, I think that it is the right response to ask for some kind of evidence. Or should be believe anything and everything we are told without question?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 May 04 - 02:02 PM

Who told you this? (dianavan)

I asked a simple question (dianavan)
(it) was a valid question (Ebbie)
dianavan asked a simple question (McGrath)

No, she didn't. She asked a presuppositional question which starts with an implicit assumption but asks for something else. Asking a presuppositional question is a fine instrument to derail a political (or other) discussion and shows that the person asked isn't taken serious. That was the start and even singing 'simple question' in chorus doesn't make it a simple question.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:49 PM

Metchosin,

I have just reviewed the "Required Reading List" for the U.S Naval Academy and West Point Military Academy. Neither have "The Arab Mind" listed. I was unable to find the list for the Air Force Academy but the library only lists two copies of the book at different locations. Where are you getting your information?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:25 PM

sorry.

Free elections are a good idea. But there needs to be some basic framework- do we want simple majority rule- 50.1 % get to murder the other 49.9%? IMO, the Iraqis should have whatever government they want- BUT The Kurds should have a chance at an independent state, regardless of Turkey's view on the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:21 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:17 PM

All this hate and derision because dianavan asked a simple question "Who told you that?"

I still think the rant post was a fake.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:53 AM

Dianavan - he heard you!

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:51 AM

dianavan - you're clever so go figure. The hand's up now, for good. Rage on, I can't hear you.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:39 AM

Oooh, good trap. If he responds, you're clearly NOT talking to the hand. I shall wait eagerly.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:10 AM

Strollin Johnny - What does that mean? Talkin to the hand?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 04 - 09:17 AM

Fanatics come in all religious shapes and sizes. Timothy McVeigh was a Christian, and so were a lot of other people who have been responsible for atrocities. In the same way, there have been Jewish fanatics, Mormons, Sikh and Atheist fanatics. Even Buddhist fanatics, though perhaps not quite so many. Sometimes the motivation has been from their understanding of their religion, sometimes for other reasons.

.........................

"...it is imperative that we make sure, in the implementation of free elections, that we make absolutely sure that the elections are fair." A good start for that might be to make absolutely sure not to allow anyone associated with George Bush near them.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 25 May 04 - 09:00 AM

Dianavan, you're still talking drivel, and from now on you're talking to the hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 May 04 - 10:39 PM

Martin Gibson,

The issue isn't that they are Arab Muslim Fanatics It's that they are Fanatics. For example you are a Guitar Liking Bigot. The issue is that you are a bigot, not that you like guitars.

I believe that ignorant bigotry like yours, is what allows George and the Chickenhawks to present Iraq as a solution to the problem presented by Al Qaeda.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 May 04 - 08:01 PM

El Grecko

No, I do not believe Iraqui's flew planes into the twin towers. That's obvious.

I do believe though that Arab Muslim fanatics flew the planes into the twin towers. I also believe Arab Muslim fanatics are a major problem in Iraq.


dianavan

Your instructions to Strollin' Johnny to tell the same thing to me is another version of your tapdancing bullshit. If you are going to dish it out, take it like a man. Please seek counseling for your self admitted anger and depression.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 24 May 04 - 08:00 PM

Dianavan...as quoted to Strollin Johnny.

"I witheld my feelings and will choose to do so if I wish. You are not in charge of my feelings or my words".

How does one withold feelings...what you feel at any one time is what you feel. You may withold expression of your feelings....which seems to be anger at the time as I see it. Also who is in charge of your feelings??? as you put it.
Should you be spending so much time on Mudcat? I suspect you will give yourself an ulcer if not careful. Please be careful with your health...no point in ruining it on here.
Be Blessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 May 04 - 03:48 PM

People's biases certainly show through in this thread, and that is natural.

First off, let me assure you that this guy is not Special Forces. It takes a certain level of knowledge, and no Special Forces Operator would postulate that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. My guess is that this person perceives himself as patriotic, and does not see the sin in passing misinformation in pursuit of his political views. Either that or completely incapable of understanding that he is in the thrall of the propaganda masters of the administration.

Iraqui's don't hate us because they hate freedom. They hate us because we are acting like only we have the ability to give them the gift of freedom. They hate us because we don't see that they are not us. They hate us because, despite professing the belief in democracy, we are not willing to let them choose the leadership and style of representation that suits them. In short they hate us for being paternalistic and self serving.

Having said that, it is imperative that we make sure, in the implementation of free elections, that we make absolutely sure that the elections are fair. Further, given that we have destroyed any infrastructure that existed, we must provide the security needed to insure that the myriad factions there don't run wild. That is the difficult one. Doing that without becoming the oppressor will be very difficult. It did not have to be this way. But Gung Ho Dubya, in his very best John Wayne imitation, went running in there without a plan or the troops to implement order. He was so sure that folks would just love to be like us, he missed the critical detail. And that was that there are many vested interests and diverse views of what Allah wants.

Simply put, we did not have to do this. We have muffed it from the start, and now find ourselves in a very tough position. I am mightily saddened for the deaths, and for the psychological trauma that the returning vet's will face when we leave. Reminds me of another time...........

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 24 May 04 - 03:30 PM

Didn't they have a book like that about the Japanese during the 2nd World War?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 24 May 04 - 02:28 PM

Metchosin - Thanks for that link. It explains alot about the mindset of the U.S. military. It also explains why the U.S. soldiers refer to Arabs as "sand niggers". I am thoroughly disgusted.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Metchosin
Date: 24 May 04 - 01:37 PM

dianavan, perhaps jwt read the book The Arab Mind which is used as a US military primer. Some of his viewpoints certainly have a similar stench and the book has been deemed an easy read. It is of no surprise that US military "intelligence" has veered so far off the mark at times, when they have based their understanding of their "enemy" upon such drivel.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 24 May 04 - 01:28 PM

Strollin johnny - I am no angry about jwp's post. If anything, I think its pathetic.

I am angry about alot of things going on in the world today. Its either that or depression. There is nothing wrong with feeling angry, its a real emotion. Depends on how you express it that matters.

I get real angry with men who try to silence women by denying their emotions. Especially when they attribute negative emotion to an innocent question. I'd say you have the problem, Johnny, speak for yourself instead of trying to protect an ignorant poster. Like I said before, it the poster really believes what he/she wrote, somebody has to set their mind right. I certainly would not want to see that kind of misinformation repeated.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 24 May 04 - 11:13 AM

And now, as I seem to be the only one with an ounce of sympathy for that poor sod, I'm gonna get on with something that matters. Like painting my fence.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 24 May 04 - 11:08 AM

Precisely Kim. I thought that's what I'd said (but in a lot more words)?
Greg, I didn't say jwp's in possession of the truth (indeed are any of us?), and I was at pains to say that I disagree strongly with a great deal of what was said in his/her post. I simply feel that, having actually been there (if the statement's genuine, and we have no proof either way so I think we should assume it is), jwp's views may well be heavily influenced by what he/she's actually gone through, unlike us teachers/accountants/lawyers/truck-drivers/part-time moose-hunters/unemployed musicians/failed stand-up comedians etc., who just sat on our fat arses at home, drinking beer, spouting off and making up rules as we go along about what should and shouldn't be. From that angle at least, the guy surely deserves a hearing? And a pile of sympathy.
J :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 24 May 04 - 10:18 AM

I wouldn't say someone who's been there necessarily has The Truth - just that they may have a different perspective on things.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 May 04 - 09:21 AM

Sorry there, Johnny Martin & Co, but you're operating under the fallacy that all opinions are equally valid, and the further fallacy that simply because someone has "been there" they are necessarily in possession ot "The Truth". Nonsense.

Some opinions can be supported by evidence & objective fact, others not.

The statement in question- whether "genuine" or planted disinformation- is still utter crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 24 May 04 - 07:02 AM

You're full of anger Dianavan - it's dangerous to your health, seek help.
Best wishes,
John :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 04 - 09:23 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 23 May 04 - 09:09 PM

I don't know if jwp's post is for real or not, but I think it's fair to say that anyone who has actually been to the war zone is going to have a very different viewpoint than someone who hasn't.

I also think it's fair to say that some of the Muslim extremists dislike America because of the freedoms we offer our citizens, especially women. We let women go to school, have jobs, drive cars, and walk around with their heads (and lots of other body parts) uncovered. Those ideas are incompatible with some of the extremely religious views some Muslims hold.

I was going to say something else but I got distracted & lost my train of thought...

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 23 May 04 - 06:18 PM

Strollin Johnny - Why don't you let jwp answer for himself/herself? I guess you missed the posts where I mentioned a brother and husband who served in Vietnam. I can easily imagine my brother writing such a letter when he returned. I have no reason to believe jwp's post is insincere.

If jwp believes the iraqis flew planes into the twin towers or that they hate us because of our freedom then he needs to get his mind set straight. I wasn't sure if this was something he learned from the Iraqis or from govt. propaganda being shoved down his/her throat. Perhaps this is just another cultural belief - military culture, that is. Which just goes to prove my point (in another post) about the educational and economic level of the people who have been sucked into fighting this war.

Strollin Johnny - I assume that if he's/she's old enough to serve in the military he's/she's old enough to speak for himself. Please don't patronize and do not tell me how I should or shouldn't express myself. It was a straight question.

And by the way, do you really think a person who served in Iraq needs to be protected from me? If I had no respect or sympathy for jwp, my words would have been very harsh indeed. How dare you insinuate the tone of the question? You've never heard my voice and you do not know my feelings.

I witheld my feelings and will choose to do so if I wish. You are not in charge of my feelings or my words so go tell the same thing to Martin and see how far you get.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 04 - 04:04 PM

As I said, that post could be genuine. Of course, to be effective as black propaganda, it would need to persuade people that it was genuine. I thought it was a bit over the top for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 23 May 04 - 02:38 PM

McGrath, Dianavan, Ebbie - as I said, I disagree strongly with a great deal of jwp's post, but I have sufficient humanity, and personal experience of the effect of war on the people who find themselves actually involved in the violence, to realise that this person's post, if genuine (and I have no way of proving or disproving that, nor for that matter have you), has a real basis in actual experience, and the views expressed in it are as valid as anyone else's.

Dianavan - your question "Who told you that?" - I'll explain. I didn't, and I don't need to, put words in your mouth, isn't it obvious from the question that you believe jwp's views as expressed in the posting are a regurgitation of some political dogma that's been fed to him/her, and not genuinely-held personal views? If you didn't think that, why ask the question? And you've made no secret of your scorn for, and distrust of, the US Administration and those you perceive as their lackeys, (something on which we do in fact agree) so why wouldn't anyone assume that your post (which consisted simply of that terse question and in which, unlike me, you made no attempt whatsoever to display the 'deep heartful sympathy' that you're now claiming to feel for this unfortunate person) was merely an attempt to either denigrate jwp because of their service in the occupying forces in Iraq, or to goad him/her into making another posting in the same vein as their first so that you could attack him/her further. If your response to jwp's post had been along the lines of "You have my sympathy for having been involved in this unjust war, and for the damage it's done to you, but I'd appreciate it if you would explain why you believe........etc. etc.", I would have had no reason to respond as I did, but an unqualified "Who told you that" reads as being loaded with anger and aggression against the questionee. If I misjudged you then I'm happy to put my hand up and apologise, but you've nailed your colours firmly to the mast in this and other threads, and in that respect perhaps you're reaping what you've sown?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 May 04 - 02:22 PM

I am willing to accept that GUEST,jwp's posting is honest, and heartfelt. But in this case, it worries the hell out of me that he thinks Iraqis flew planes into the Twin Towers. If he bases his feelings on "facts" like this, he needs to re-examine some of them. It is factual inaccuracies like this that will lead others either to doubt the sencerity of the message or dismiss it as a whole. Surely Martin, you don't agree with this statement (about Iraqis flying the planes, I mean)?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 04 - 02:02 PM

Heartfelt? You really think that the rant was genuine? Well, I suppose anything is possible. But it read like "a Modest Proposal" to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Apache
Date: 23 May 04 - 01:32 PM

Are we sure that the video is real, did anyone check the Created On: date.

Is this just another random snuff film from the internet?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 04 - 01:27 PM

Heartfelt crap then.

Martin, you agree with this jerk as you are full of hate, intolerance and bigotry as he is.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 May 04 - 12:57 PM

Utter crap?

It was heartfelt and closer to the truth then you can say Greg F.

And of course you also, dianavan.

Both of your challanges to Guest, jwp were some of the lamest comebacks I have ever read.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 May 04 - 12:24 PM

Then there's the fact that the jwp rant is utter crap.....

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 May 04 - 11:49 AM

I think "Who told you that?" was a valid question. That 'Iraq hates us because they hate freedom' is a frequently postulated idea of the current White House gang.

It does not seem likely that an Iraqi, asked why s/he hates the USA, answered, Because I hate freedom.

Nah.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 23 May 04 - 10:21 AM

Strollin Johnny - I asked a simple question.

You have certainly read alot into what I said and you certainly do not know what my feelings are regarding the poster. If you believe what you wrote, those are your ideas, not mine.

My thoughts regarding the poster are more akin to deep, heartful sympathy. Don't presume to second guess me, read between the lines or put words in my mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 04 - 06:46 AM

I suspect that rant by jwp is probably "black propaganda" by someone who wants to put the USA in the worst possible light. Not really much need for that these days, maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 23 May 04 - 02:54 AM

Dianavan - GUEST jwp's post is an eloquent expression of a different viewpoint, which he/she seems (assuming he/she is telling the truth about recent service in Iraq) to have gained from the experience of being there. Just because it differs wildly from your view of things, and it's literary style is perhaps less sophisticated that that of many others on this thread, doesn't mean it's any less valid, and your comment of "Who told you that" is a low shot at someone who's apparently witnessed the dungheap of the Iraq situation at first-hand (something which, thankfully, you and I are never likely to have to do).

I don't agree with him/her either but, please, at least have the grace to accept that this person has formed their opinion not on the biased propaganda fed us by the media and the politicians, but on personal experience and observation, in a situation not of their own making and where they have suffered danger and deprivations of which the likes of us have little or no experience. I personally know people who have served in the current Iraq action and, trust me, they are changed forever. The psychological scars, and the physical ones too, are borne by all sides. In war everyone suffers, and I think GUEST jwp's post, warts and all, is proof positive of that.

The plight of the people of the Middle East (not just Iraq) is appalling and an affront to civilised society, I know we agree on that, but it's not the servicemen and women of the United States and other countries who should be suffering the fall-out from your Rage Against America - they went because they had no other realistic option (unless you count Court-Martial as an option, and I guess that's not acceptable to your average soldier) - it's the liars, self-servers and sycophants in The White House, on Capitol Hill, in Westminster and in the world's media that you need to turn your venom against. IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 04 - 01:44 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 04 - 01:44 AM

Could it possibly be that they hate you because you represent an occupying military power that has been shown to use torture and to have killed those it was claiming to be protecting/freeing.

And however you feel about it, it is their culture not yours, seeking to change it by waving a gun in their face is even less likely to endear yourselves to the Iraqi people, they are a devout (whether you like it or not) people with a long history of which they are proud. Claiming to know better while driving around Baghdad in your tanks will not win hearts and minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 23 May 04 - 01:42 AM

jwt - "Iraqi people hate us because of our freedom. They want a communist country where the men control it."

Who told you this?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From:
Date: 22 May 04 - 10:51 PM

Just a few comments on the war. I am in special operations and just returned from Iraq. What is the United States citizens thinking when they say they don't support the war. In reality they just have to support the men and women. 90% of the armed forces joined not thinking about going to war but to make a better life for themselves and to get a better education. Most are 18-22 year old kids scared for their lives over there. If you remember they flew planes into the TWIN TOWERS, we didn't. Before I joined I somewhat felt the same way but after seeing how the women and children have to live that was it. Every Iraqi terrorist we encountered had a 12-13 year old wife when he himself is in his 30's. You could see the childhood that was taken from them in their eyes. I read an article earlier and some American was apologizing for the United States actions of this war. What about the news reporters, Iraqi's are beheading, raping, shooting, burning, hanging, beating, and draging Americans as we speak. For someone to say they were wrong for being there, or the news to say we are wrong for the recent things that we have did to them is a punishible crime in itself. During the vietnam war special forces did so well because of psycological warfare. The SEALS found out that Vietnamese thought their souls would not rest if all of the body parts weren't intact. The SEALS would take bits out of their livers and other body parts and that is how they became to be known as the most terrified force and named The Green Faced Devil's. Now because of the news and bleeding heart Americans we can't deprive them of any of their senses I.E hoods, blind folds or tape, food deprevation or sleep. If americans would support us and let us convert to psychological warfare again then all of the terrorist acts would cease, less American lives lost and the war would be over. The Iraqi terrorists favorite words were I know my rights! If that is so then why are we being killed when they are getting food 3 times a day and a living quarters better than some of military personnel live in. Did you know the Army troops at one point had to survive on one MRE a day and give 2 of theirs away so the Iraqi detainees could have 3? We take some pictures and they behead a person. Does that sound right? Do we go and grab an Iraqi in the States and cut off his head for their actions? They are doing all of this because they know if they get caught they will live better than they do know. If we could go over there and do the same things as they do the war would be over. Americans think the military is killing our troops but in reality it is American citizens and their bleeding hearts. War isn't pretty and everyone that is not or has not served in the armed forces should feel really lucky. If we didn't have people willing to go do this they there would be a draft and you don't get to choose if you want to go or not. It is hard to see the other side of things if you have never served but talk to people that have and have been over there to learn. No matter how you think you are getting screwed by our government or how much it sucks, believe me it could be alot worse. We are the land of the free. Iraqi people hate us because of our freedom. They want a communist country where the men control it. To the men that think we are wrong I hope you can feel the pain of the little girl who has had here hopes, virginity, dreams and life taken away from her which could be your daughter. To the women, picture a life where you were forced to marry an uncle or brother at 13, your virginity taken away. I know there isn't a women in the world that doesn't like to snuggle with their husbands at night. Imagine sleeping in a room with 10 women and 20 children while your husband sleeps in the other end of the house with 10 men. Imagine your daughter being taken away at 12 or 13 for marriage. This is alittle sample of reality that goes on there. Finally to the NEWS REPORTERS and the PEOPLE that never support us and pray for forgivness to Iraqi terrorists for us going over there freeing them, for pay back for 9\11, and every other terrorist attack they have performed on any country. May God give the United States the brains and balls to take away your citizenships and send you over to the Middle East for a taste of reality. If there is anyone interested in more information you can contact me at [e-mail]. I don't want to change your view but hope to open your eyes alittle. Also don't talk about things you don't know about. If this country is so wrong what are you doing living here? Get out and make the world a better place.

Thank You for you time.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 May 04 - 04:37 PM

Pushed the button, and then noticed you'd said British there, not English (though you didn't in respect of your ancestors).

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 May 04 - 04:14 PM

I have more in common with Yanks than I do with people from Britain or Ireland. You leave out the Scots there, brucie, I see...

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 22 May 04 - 03:56 PM

Bruce,

You are a man of rare good wisdom. Trust the people you watch TV with, not the people you watch on TV.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Peace
Date: 22 May 04 - 02:03 PM

I come from Irish/English/Scottish ancestors, and I have more in common with Yanks than I do with people from Britain or Ireland. I don't trust the American government, but I do trust the American people. (Parenthetically, I don't trust the Canadian government, either!)

Subject: Way off topic here...
From: robomatic
Date: 21 May 04 - 06:55 PM

Di-van:

While I have disagreed with some of your posts, I may have seen more of Canada than you, and I urge you to see more of your own beautiful country.

Though I have been in support of the war in Iraq, I don't hold it against Canada that with the information in front of them, they have taken a different course.

I have driven the Trans-Canada, the Alaska Highway (which is mostly in Canada), and I have some strong beliefs:

1)That we in the U.S. have been luckier than we deserve to have the northerly neighbor we do.

2)I agree that most of U.S. has almost no knowledge of Canadian history and the part we played in it.

3)Stan Rogers was a genius.

4)Where has all the ginger beer gone?

5)I really wish the Canadian identity could hold out a bit better than it has, but I guess the McDonaldization of the entire world is bringing us closer together.

6)I don't forget things like having some of our Iranian hostages safeguarded in the Canadian Embassy and returned to us. I guarantee you that whatever bitchin we Yanks do, you will find that a lot of us remember.

7)I really hope you can keep your country together. Another reason you should spend some time travelling it. If Quebec goes independent, I think it's a matter of time before most of Canada would formally become American. It wouldn't be a disaster, but it would be a shame.

8)One of the great stories of incredible rivalry and friendship is the story of Halifax and Boston. Both fielded privateers against the other in the periods around the first two American English wars. Fortunes were built in Halifax on plundering the American trade. FAST-forward to the burning French munitions ship which exploded in Halifax harbor during WWI and a huge amount of aide was rendered from the city of Boston.


Now if only you guys would learn to spell...

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 May 04 - 06:31 PM

Here's a piece by Nick Berg's father, Michael Berg, published in today's Guardian:

"Even more than the murderers who took my son's life, I condemn those who make policies to end lives ":

"...My son's work still goes on. Where there was one peacemaker before, I now see and have heard from thousands of peacemakers. Nick was a man who acted on his beliefs. We, the people of this world, now need to act on our beliefs. We need to let the evildoers on both sides of the Atlantic know that we are fed up with war. We are fed up with the killing and bombing and maiming of innocent people. We are fed up with the lies.

Yes, we are fed up with the suicide bombers, and with the failure of the Israelis and Palestinians to find a way to stop killing each other. We are fed up with negotiations and peace conferences that are entered into on both sides with preset conditions that preclude the outcome of peace. We want world peace now.

This is an extract from his message of support for the Stop The War Coalition's demonstration, "End the Torture - Bring the Troops Home Now", which will be held at 11am tomorrow at the Embankment in London

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 May 04 - 05:22 PM

First of all, I keep returning to this thread to see the fallout and the tap dancing.

I can choose when I want to be intellectual or plain just not want to. I will usually give what I perceive to be hate mongers of Americans and Jews a does of their own crap and I don't pretend in the slightest to call this type of hate high intellectual thought, which some obviously do.

Big Mick is right when he says dianavan is the one of the most anti-american posters on this board. It's then oh so easy to try to get some sympathy when someone calls her on it and then someone else agrees.

Big Mick is also right for standing up for seeing the good in America and I'll stand up for it with him. People like dianavan rub me wrong and I know I rub some here wrong. To her and to those, fuck ya.

Sorry Kim C., tried to be sweet there for a while, but gave up. Just being honest with my feelings.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 21 May 04 - 05:18 PM

And NOW the NPR news people are saying there are two Iraqis in custody. The police allowed the other to to leave. The two in custody are being questioned untill the authoritieds are positive of innocence, or I suppose guilt (chargeability).

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 21 May 04 - 04:49 PM

Veeeeeellllly intellesteenk.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 21 May 04 - 03:39 PM

On the NPR News at 1:00 today the reporters anoounced there were 4
Iraqis in custody and charged with Mr. Bergs death. They had been members of the Fedayeen. More news will probably follow.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 May 04 - 11:02 AM

I will agree that many citizens of the US know little about Canada. I spend a great deal of time in Canada, and am fascinated by its patchwork of peoples, its politics, its way of life, its history, and its music. The songwriters seem so tied to the land they inhabit, and the history, and their pride of country, that it seems they write music unlike much of what I hear out there. My comments are not intended to reflect discontent with Canada, in fact I have great admiration for that country and its denizens. They have retained much of what the US has lost. It is a unique and wonderful country, with an identity that is enviable.

As to criticism of the US, much of it is deserved, and I can't recall a time when I was more disappointed in the actions of my country. I just react when I see justifiable criticism cross over into the area of everything we do is despicable. The contributions of this noble experiment are legion. Its mistakes are out there for all to see. We are not a perfect nation, but our people, in the main, are decent and well intentioned. I agree with John McCain and others when they say that only full disclosure, prosecution, public mea culpa, and then get back on the road. While we never should have been in Iraq to begin with, we certainly have a moral obligation to help restore the infrastructure, turn the government over to leaders the Iraqui's choose in a free, fair, and internationally monitored process of some sort, and leave. Succinct and oversimplified, I agree, but that is the path we must follow. And no alibi'ing our actions in those prisons.

As to the animal that beheaded Berg, my opinion is the same. And the same standard should apply to all sides in this matter.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 21 May 04 - 09:47 AM

Y'know, I never thought much about it, but the fact is, I don't know much about Canada. Or Mexico either for that matter. The only time I ever hear much about Canada in the news is when the Quebecois have a secession referendum.

As for the bull in the china shop.... that also depends on the size of the bull and the size and layout of the shop. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 21 May 04 - 12:50 AM

GregF

Thanks for the Mencken quote. I've tried to explain that idea to people but never had the right words.

I think I'll have it tattooed on me somewhere handy.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 20 May 04 - 11:20 PM

Thanks, Mick

I want to say that any country that thinks they have the right to ship their garbage to another country is wrong. I'm not sure but I think this is not Canadian policy but rather a provincial matter, maybe even civic. I remember reading something about it but it seemed a long ways away - like Toronto or something.

Living in Vancouver, I have much more in common with people from the Northwest U.S. (where I was born) and California than I do with anyone from Ontario or farther east. Living in Vancouver, I probably have more in common with Chinese-Canadians. In fact, I know very little about the country of Canada - never been outside the province of B.C. Seems my travels have only been on the Pacific side of the continent. I seem to hop from here to New York and then across the Atlantic. Haven't seen much in between.

I am hard on the U.S. I know, but you should understand that its an easy thing to criticize when it is always in your face. I am hard on the U.S. because it is the hope of the world and it is behaving very badly. I hold Canada, however, to even higher standards because we, I believe, are the caretakers of a vital part of the world ecology. I also hope that Canada can continue their role as peacekeepers in a world where there is so little trust.

I was very proud when Chretien stood up to Bush. Considering we live right next door, it was a brave and honorable thing to do. I hope our new Prime Minister, Martin, can be as tough. Unfortunately, I think he is probably another corrupt, fat cat. We will see how far he can push the Kyota accord and how he handles such issues as global warming and sustainable living. He has said that our economy depends on a healthy environment - we will see if he can put his money where his mouth is. From what I hear, his money is mostly off-shore.

People from the U.S. know so little about Canada, its history and its politics, that its futile to discuss it. Canadians, however, know alot about whats happening in the U.S. If we want to discuss world events, we must talk about the U.S. because that is what most people from the U.S. understand. Would you like to discuss the NDP's or the Liberals or the Progressive Conservatives? See what I mean?

There's a joke on the coast about Torontonians. They think that Canada is what they can see from the top of the CN tower. I think that in large part, that goes for the majority of Americans. We only know what we can see from within the confines of our own reality. And yes, America, for all of its beauty, is becoming fat and ugly with age. Look at what slightly over 100 years have done to this continent, and indeed the world. I do think its time we started behaving like responsible world citizens.

Thanks again for your kind words. I am not an intellectual by any stretch of the imagination. I am largely self educated (I started university in my 40's) and aside from mudcat, I hardly ever discuss politics with my friends or family. For me, this is part of my education which I believe to be a lifelong experience. When I stop learning, I will be in the act of dying.

Just for the record, I'm not much of a Nationalist. I call myself an American hybrid.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 May 04 - 10:02 PM

dianavan, perhaps I am being unfair, as this is simply a perceptual observation. You are a very interesting poster to me. I find your arguments to be well thought out, I really like your intensity, and find myself in agreement with a great deal of what you say. But it seems to me, and I admit that it is simply my perception, that you are much harder on the US than anyone else. At the moment the only example I can think of is when you were castigating the US for its environmental abuses and use of resources. I recall (and I might be combining several posts here as I am responding quickly and from memory)that I indicated that Canadian large cities had as much traffic as any cities I had ever been in. I also indicated that it seemed odd to me that environmental criticism from someone who can't seem to find a way to dispose of its own trash lacked credibility. I was implying that there is hypocrisy in not wanting to despoil your own wilderness, so instead you ship it to the US. As I recall, there was not much response, nothing like your comments about the US.

Having said all that, let me say this. You are one of the most enjoyable of the newer Mudcatters. While I may take issue with some of your posts, I must tell you that I hope to meet you one day and share a song or two. I enjoy the zeal with which you make your arguments, and I know that when I engage in a debate with you, I better be prepared to defend my positions.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:54 PM

You don't know squirrels like I know squirrels, McGrath. I'd go for more of a "hamster in a china shop" as compared to a "stegosaurus in a china shop" analogy.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:44 PM

When you are the world superpower, and the strongest and wealthiest enterprise on the planet, it is inevitable that people focus their attention on what you get up to, because it really does make a big difference.

The reason people talk about bulls in china shops, and not about squirrels in china shops, is because a china shop with a bull in it is a very different place from a china shop with a squirrel in it. Even when the squirrel is a very badly behaved squirrel and the bull is a relatively well-behaved bull, the bull is likely to do a great deal more damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:33 PM

Thank-you Greg F. - thats exactly the point.

As to not criticizing Canada. I would and I do but not as vehemently as I do the U.S. The political system here is quite different and I'm still learning the ins and outs. Besides, like I said before, the U.S. is the standard bearer for the world. If the U.S. doesn't change, It is very difficult for others to initiate change. The economic pressures are enormous.

Besides that, there are not enough Canadians in the 'catbox' to argue with. It seems that most of the time we are in agreement.

Don't forget, I always make the distinction between the U.S. and America. As a Canadian, I am a part of America. I am not, however, living in the U.S. When I say America, I'm talking about Canadians, too.

Mick - Please give me an example of not holding Canada to the same standards. In fact, I do.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 20 May 04 - 02:13 PM

Dianavan, I ain't offended. I like it much better when people can be pleasant to one another but from a practical standpoint, I know that can't happen all the time.

Martin, please be sweet. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 May 04 - 01:00 PM


The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.
         -H. L. Mencken

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 04 - 12:25 PM

Mick:

Agreed- Thank you for the post.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 May 04 - 12:02 PM

Martin Gibson, you seem to think that you can make up for your inability to carry on with intellectual depth by using foul words and covering your weaknesses by using the Holocaust as cover. Pretty despicable. I accept that the Holocaust, arguably, was the single greatest atrocity ever committed in the history of mankind. Even if one doesn't accept that, it is hard to not include it in the top two or three. Done, I agree. But using it as an excuse to not discuss the current problems with the Israelis and Palestinians is just begging for the current problem to continue. I support the rights of the Israelis to have their homeland. I support the same right for the Palestinians. It is fair, when looking at the tactics being used by Israel, to draw parallels to other times. It is also fair to point out that the use of children as suicide bombers is a terrible tactic. I don't know how this seems to you, but the people of Israel, like the folks in the North of Ireland, seem to be speaking very loudly. And they want attitudes like yours to disappear. Using the Holocaust to justify horrific actions seems like the ultimate sin to me.

dianavan, I appreciate many of your posts. But I do agree that you seem to take every opportunity to criticize the US, and never hold your adopted homeland, or any other country, to the same standard.   The examples abound.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Bobert
Date: 19 May 04 - 11:13 PM

Well gol danged, Martin! Yeah, you might have some folks you suffered at the hands on the Nazis, but your response to Jack the Sailor was nothing short of "brown-shirt-ism". You might want to revist Germany in the 30's before making your comparisions 'cause, in your attempts to paint others, you have done nothin' more than paint yourself...

Don't like hearin' it? Then stop. Ain't no rocket surgery... Think about it...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 19 May 04 - 11:01 PM

Kim C. - I am sorry if I offended your sensibilities. I do think you started this thread as a serious inquiry. I applaud anyone who chooses to open a discussion to gain insight into an issue. Like you say, lets put all of the speculation into a pot and stir it up. Maybe we will someday find a little bit of truth. It is doubtful if we will ever know the whole truth.

Although I have never met any of the Mudcatters, after awhile, it becomes quite evident who is being honest (at least from their heart) and who is spewing hatred. Anything a 'hate monger' has to say is not worth listening to.

Although I have been accused of hating Americans, it is not true. I do, however, question how the land of my birth has evolved. It saddens me because I know the American people are generally not mean spirited and ignorant. When I criticize, I am speaking in general terms and those terms can usually be extended to the country of my residence because I know that the U.S.A. is a role model for the world. It is a privilege to be an American citizen but that privilege carries with it a very big responsibility. Part of that responsibility is to question and criticize the government. When citizens stop doing that and accept the word of the government with 'blind faith', the ideals of democracy are dead.

I love the rebel that is America. I despise the cowardice of the status quo and when the 'establishment' is content to sit in the lap of luxury and ignore the plight of the oppressed, I weep.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 04 - 06:02 PM

Wait, maybe the box rot smell is trying to smell like something else! So, let's stick with emulates.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 04 - 06:00 PM

emulates? Nah, emanates maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 May 04 - 05:57 PM

Isn't he sweet?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 May 04 - 05:02 PM

dianavan i am not a Jewish Nazi. You are so fucking ignorant. There is no such thing. And I enjoy pushing your buttons even more. Comparing me to Hitler is so childish that it it is beyond comprehension. You are obviously so stupid and ignorant about the holocaust and I believe life in general.

Your disdain for all things American emulates like the box rot that permeates the air from from your crotch.

I may call you names that you so deserve, but your obsession with Nazis shows YOUR true colors.

No I don't hate all Arabs. I just detest the ones who hate Jews.

Jack the Sailor, don't bump you fat head on the ceiling of your trailor. go brush your tooth, you moron. And I'll bring my relatives who suffered in the concentration camps in to my arguement and honor their memory anytime I please.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 19 May 04 - 02:42 PM

Perhaps if we put all the bullshit into one big pile, we might be able to find enough usable bullshit to suss out a fairly accurate assessment of the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 19 May 04 - 12:54 PM

Propaganda, smokescreens, bullshit, evasions, exaggerations, half-truths and bare-faced lies. That's what we're served up with daily by all parties to this unholy mess. How can anyone claim to know what's going on? We can surmise, suspect, deduce, guess, but we can't possibly know. So will you all stop pretending you have the answers please? It's just whatever piece of propaganda you've accepted because it suits your politics. You're driving me nuts.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 19 May 04 - 12:42 PM

Now I'm doubly curious. The AP story McGrath links to questions the validity of the claim; and no recent news stories have mentioned that the prime suspect in the Berg murder was supposed to be dead already.

What's up with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 May 04 - 12:20 PM

Here's an Associated Press news item dated March 4th. Iraq militants claim al-Zarqawi is dead Whether it's accurate, who knows? Who knows whether the other stuff about him is accurate either?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 19 May 04 - 12:09 PM

This from the USAToday website, from a story posted last Friday:

"Much of the world reacted in horror to Berg's death and the grisly video that recorded it. U.S. intelligence officials have concluded that terrorist leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who has a $10 million price on his head by the U.S. government, was the person shown decapitating Berg."

This from Japan Today, regarding the arrests:

"It was understood that none of the four included al-Qaida linked Jordanian extremist Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi, who U.S. authorities believe carried out the killing of the 26-year-old along with other atrocities in Iraq.

However, Brig Gen Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of operations, said: "We have no information from the coalition that any arrests were made today." (Wire reports)"

This from the DoD website, from a transcript of a press conference today:

"Q    Stephanie Halasz, CNN. One question regarding Nicholas Berg. We're hearing that there are reports that four arrests were made regarding the killing of Berg. Can you tell us anything about that?



            GEN. KIMMITT: We have no information on the coalition that any arrests were made today."


I haven't found any reference to al-Zarqawi being killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 19 May 04 - 10:57 AM

Kim C. - Once again, it depends on what you read. I read that al-Zarqawi was killed by a bomb a few months ago. Four men have been arrested for the beheading but al-Zarqawi was not one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 19 May 04 - 09:46 AM

Guest from NW, to the best of my knowledge, it has been verified that Nicholas Berg was indeed beheaded. Who actually did it, and for what reason, may still be in question, but very recent reports seem to indicate that investigators are fairly certain it was al-Zarqawi.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 04 - 01:56 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 19 May 04 - 12:45 AM

"Apparently no one has any definite evidence as to the actual nationality of the executioners."

exactly. no one has any verification that the video is not a fake either. there are plenty of speculations on that citing evidence in the video itself. and the details behind the last few weeks of nick berg's life seem very hard to discover or verify either. so why does everyone have such strong opinions about something that is completely unverifiable and the stories behind it confused and at odds?
because it is a brilliant piece of propaganda that allows the consumer of such to pour out his/her predjudices and hatred with chilling self-righteousness. enough to justify the killing of innocents. we live in a dark time.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 18 May 04 - 09:27 PM

I already said, anyone who feels it necessary to engage in name-calling is welcome to do so on some other thread. It makes for negative energy and isn't good for the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 18 May 04 - 08:53 PM

Calling someone a name is definitely rude but... uncalled for? It is pale compared to the names Martin has called me and others. I rarely call people names but, in Martin's case, he deserves it. Besides that, I actually enjoy pushing Martin's buttons so that he can respond and show his true colours. There is nothing worse, in my opinion, than a Jew who treats others with the same kind of disdain that Hitler showed for Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 18 May 04 - 09:42 AM

COOL IT PLEASE with the Nazi stuff. It is rude and uncalled for. Surely you are all intelligent enough to be able to think of better words than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 May 04 - 12:41 PM

Yes, McGrath, the Tehran Times site which remains a Tehran site even when reprinting an article from somewhere else.

However, thanks for directing my attention to my post so I can correct a different mistake: 'Arab' was the wrong word for a site from Iran. Persian or, even better, Iranian is what I should have posted.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 17 May 04 - 10:54 AM

Trust no-one, believe no-one, for that way lies madness.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 May 04 - 10:10 AM

Interesting link to an Arab site. Which was that Wolfgang? If you mean the link to the non-Arab "Tehran Times", so far as I can see the article is taken from an American source.

The business of Nick Berg being pulled in by the American authorities, then released and subsequently being picked up by the people who killed him - it has overtones of the kind of incident that happened in the Civil Rights struggle in the Deep South. The idea that there might at times be some kind of working collaboration between American agents and a freelance terrorist group is not something that can be ruled out. Odd alliances can occur - remember how, during the Iran-Iraq war, while the US was in most ways effectively backing Saddam's Iraq, there was Ollie North, off on the side arranging to supply Iran with weaponry in order to finance terrorists in Nicaragua.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 17 May 04 - 08:48 AM

No problem Dianavan, nice response and I'm glad we're friends again!
Johnny :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 04 - 01:36 AM

He's a credit to his people

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 17 May 04 - 01:30 AM

I think Martin is a Jewish Nazi.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 May 04 - 12:57 AM

So Mr. Powell just got back from Jordon where he apparanty criticized Arab leaders for not "showing outrage" at the killing of Berg. Can you imagine the gall it must take to do that? Was he not 600 times more upset that they did not show outrage for the deaths of Nigerian Christians?

Martin Gibson, you may not be a NAZI but you sure are a hate monger and a bigot. Oh and for bringing your dead relatives into the arguement. What shall we call you? How about classless neocon?

I understand where DougR is coming from, In WWII the Japanese and Germans were called subhuman. Certainly in my lifetime the Communists were labeled godless savages and worse. Doug watches Mr. Murdoch's Propaganda channel does he not?

But I was saddened see Doug bring our dear departed into this messy and unkind debate. I hope he decides to think twice before ever doing that again.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 16 May 04 - 11:48 PM

I guess that makes you an Arab hating Jew. Am I surprized?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 16 May 04 - 10:18 PM

You know, dianavam I don't give a shit if Nick Berg's killer was a Jordanian or an Iraqui.

Either way, he was a Jew hating Arab.

Right Lupis Rex? What was that sound?? Oh, it was your head popping out of your ass. Smear you? Hardly.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 16 May 04 - 09:43 PM

Strollin Johnny - Thanks for the clarification.

I, feel bewildered by the number of stories floating around out there. I, do, however stand by the facts stated above. At this time, all stories seem to agree on those three facts. Maybe someone can blue clicky something to change my mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 16 May 04 - 08:59 PM

Dianavan, why insensitive? Read it again. Did I say 'profit', or was the word I used 'benefit'?. They're not the same thing, 'profit' intimates an element of 'enrichment', whereas 'benefit' implies simply 'compensation', and I chose my words very carefully in order to try to avoid unjustified accusations of the kind you've made.

And did I not say, in the very next sentence, that I'm not casting aspersions on Berg's family's honesty? I merely stated the fact (a real fact, not a piece of propaganda I've been fed that suits my personal agenda and which I then regurgitate as 'fact') that, in a highly litigious society like the USA with it's well-developed compensation-culture, it's not unreasonable to assume that the family will seek a suitable level of compensation for the loss of their son?

I've been at pains, in this thread, to express my genuine sadness at the death, not only of this young man, but every other death that's resulted from these adventures that the US and the UK have embarked upon, and I've also expressed my heartfelt sympathy for his family and friends.

So, am I a realist? I'll hold my hand up to that, no sweat. Sympathetic? Yep, that too. Insensitive? I think not.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 16 May 04 - 11:10 AM

SOP - Read this:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/15/iraq/main617643.shtml

Sorry about the clumsy link.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 May 04 - 11:09 AM

Interesting link to an Arab site. In my eyes, it demonstrates once more what this five months old thread was about:

A very Arab obsession

Paranoia and wild imaginings can be comforting when faced with overwhelming state power and pure brute force....The question that must challenge the Arab world today is how to check this dangerous slide into paranoia and self-defeating religious bigotry.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: robomatic
Date: 16 May 04 - 11:05 AM

You know, still relatively soon after the event, it's foolish to jump in with confident statements such as implying that Berg was a profiteer, even saying he was stupid. I however am ready to believe he was an innocent guy in the wrong place. Is there proof of that? I don't know. In the incredibly mixed up world that is Iraq at present, the perpetrators could be a splinter group with a room, a videocamera, and access to an uplink. I believe several hard core Islamic fundy organizations went to the trouble of disavowing responsibility.

I think most people come out of this thing with the same views they had going in, only more strident and less prone to compromise.

It does not relate to the prisoner issue, which is entirely separate.

The horror of it all is more than a really nasty beheading video. It's the situation wherein an innocent person is treated as a 'thing' to make suffer, and offered up as a video sacrifice, which makes us feel as we watch it horrified, sad, and somewhat guilty and defiled.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: S O P
Date: 16 May 04 - 10:56 AM

di-van:

Asserting Berg's father has proof of anything is a use of the word 'proof' I'm not familiar with.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 16 May 04 - 10:55 AM

Strollin'Johnny - No, I am not certain that the family is telling the truth. I am saying that with all the misinformation out there, I am following very closely, the actions of the family. It is the family who is most closely involved. I also believe that most parents would want justice if a child was murdered. They are the ones that have to 'come to terms' with the death of their son.

Of course, they might be lying too, but I think that suggesting they might profit from their son's death is insensitive, to say the least.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 16 May 04 - 08:13 AM

At least one news article referred to the killers as "Iraqi militants." I believe I linked to it earlier. Granted, that has come to be inaccurate since more news has come out.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 16 May 04 - 02:05 AM

Dianavan, the question of the thread title was dealt with right back in post no. 5!

We're fed so much bullshit by all sides in this crock of crap I don't understand how you're able to make such positive judgments about who's lying and who isn't. You're right that the media tell whichever fairytale suits their owners/sponsors political persuasions, but why are you so certain that the family are telling it 100% the way it is? Won't they stand to benefit hugely financially if they can prove that US Goverment forces effectively sent the lad to a horrific death, rather than that he was an unfortunate fool who put himself in harm's way?

NB - not saying the family are lying, or that Berg was a fool, I don't have enough (accurate) information to make a judgment. What I am saying is that this was a tragic and unforgivable event in a long catalogue of tragic and unforgivable events, that we're being subjected to propaganda from many many sources, and that truth has become indistinguishable from lie. Those of us who claim, very publically, to have a hotline to the truth may eventually find they too have been right royally hoodwinked.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 15 May 04 - 05:55 PM

Don - I am not attesting to the accuracy of any newspaper article. What I am saying is that it is not far-fetched to question the details of the murder of Berg. I linked the article because it neatly outlined my suspicions regarding the timing of this event. I also think it is important to understand the moderate Iraqi perspective.

If we believe the U.S. version of the story, the murderer was a Jordanian not an Iraqi. I was disagreeing with the title of the post. Nobody has claimed that the murderer was Iraqi.

As far as the detention of Berg, previous to his murder, it is Berg's father who has the proof that the U.S. did, in fact, detain him. The U.S. tried to lie about that saying it was the Iraqi police who detained him. In the end, the U.S. admitted that they had detained him for questioning. They only released him when the father threatened to sue for unlawful confinement. I'm not sure, but I think he will still sue the U.S. government, including Rumsfeld. At least thats the last I heard.

At this point, I am more willing to follow the accounts of a father's quest for justice, more than anything the media wants us to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 15 May 04 - 05:47 PM

Beheading someone with a butcher's knife. Alas. I suppose all of those men had mothers, all have consciences, and somewhere they're going to have to face what they've done. Dear God, what a thing to have to face in the dark of the night.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 04 - 05:46 PM

Blue clicky for dianavan's link.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 15 May 04 - 05:46 PM

Johnny,

Thats a bit of an argue point too I guess. My schepticism lamp gets lit pretty easily these days. I trust what most factions say to have a glimmer of fact in them. About the only people I distrust out of hand is Bin Laden and his cronies and International Answer and their cronies. And even if there is a glimmer there, They, the universal they, subvert it to meet their own plan.

I don't know who to trust to tell the truth so I guess I trust no one.


Don

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 15 May 04 - 05:07 PM

I'm not sure about Dianavan's 'Fact' no. 1 either Don - has anyone confessed to being the individual who perpetrated the killing? We didn't see his face, and we could be being lied to again.

Oh what a tangled web we weave...............

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 15 May 04 - 04:43 PM

Ebbie,

I just this minute read the article in the Tehran Times.

Diana, I guess this still begs my point. Why is this article anymore accurate or complete than one from The New York Times or The Christian Science Monitor.

And I concur with you and have no doubts on facts 1 and 2. I'm not sure about 3 for reasons of the very question I am asking.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 May 04 - 04:34 PM

Here's what I get: "Due to technical problems you can not see TehranTimes at the moment.Please try again later."

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 15 May 04 - 04:06 PM

Fact #1 - It was not an Iraqi who did the beheading

Fact #2 - Berg's dad blames the Bush admin and Rumsfeld

Fact #3 - The administration lied about detaining Nick Berg

...and for those of you who choose to continue the propaganda, scratch the surface and you will find much, much more.

Read this and see if you still believe what the U.S. has to say about Nick Berg or anything else about what they're doing in Iraq.

href="http://www.tehrantimes.com/Description.asp?Da=5/16/2004&Cat=2&Num=029">http://www.tehrantimes.com/Description.asp?Da=5/16/2004&Cat=2&Num=029

Forgive my clumsiness. I am just learning how to use the blue clicky.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 15 May 04 - 03:19 PM

Well, that's the other thing. The only real conclusions I've been able to make are: 1)Nick Berg is dead and 2) nobody seems to know exactly what's going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 04 - 02:24 PM

The one thing that is clear from this whole war is that "the experts" are not very well informed either. Even when they are actually trying to tell the truth, they persistently get it wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 15 May 04 - 09:55 AM

Don, that's always been my problem with the news. I don't know what to believe because there's too many different things.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 15 May 04 - 07:39 AM

"The crux of the mater"

Jeepers is that Freudian?

Will I ever spell czech?

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 15 May 04 - 05:44 AM

Don, you beat me to it! Lots of 'expert' opinions in here, being made by non-experts who've taken their lead from whichever piece of political hyperbole and mileage-making rings their chimes.

We're being fed crap daily - how do any of us know who's lying and who isn't? I certainly don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: S O P
Date: 14 May 04 - 11:54 PM

The one thing we all believe is the video.


And the body.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 14 May 04 - 10:50 PM

Dianavan,

Here I am breaking into this mess again. Re: Safe passage, depending on who you choose to believe Brerg was offered safe passage but refused it. Others claim it was otherwise. I doubt any of us has anyway to know for sure.


Everyone,

And this is the crux of the mater for much of the right versus left, convervative versus liberal debates. Who do you believe when listening to news? Both sides spin it all over the place so I don't think either point of view is adequately informed and neither sides leaders or directors can lie straight in bed.

And for a bunch of school teachers, students, Doctors, Moms and Dads, and every walk of life types in this forum we are a pretty remakable bunch of skilled political scientists who have all the facts at hand.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 04 - 10:41 PM

S O P, in the case of Sudan, it has been clearly established that oil is a big part of the problem. There is a lot of conflict about who the beneficiaries of oil revenues should be, and a lot of people are being displaced from their homes so that oil can be drilled for in those locations.

I haven't spent enough time looking into the Nigeria situation to be able to say if oil is connected in the same way, but it won't surprise me if it is. The religious issues are certainly a part of what is causing the violence, but in the case of Sudan, where the conflict is also between Muslims and Christians, oil is at least as much of the problem as religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 14 May 04 - 10:34 PM

This story describes al-Zarqawi as a "senior Al-Qaida operative." 'Course it's from yesterday, so it's probably old news.

Click here

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 14 May 04 - 10:28 PM

Apparently the Jordanian murderer has AQ associations. At least that's what I've understood from the news reports, which may or may not be accurate.

I also read that Berg was offered a flight back to the US and refused. Again, that may or may not be accurate. Drudge has links to several stories regarding Berg's murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: S O P
Date: 14 May 04 - 10:24 PM

Isn't Nigeria where there was a series of riots and loss of life over a statement on the internet regarding Mohamed and the Miss World Pageant. Want to work that in with oil conspiracy?


As far as the U.S. committing the Berg atrocity, some people will say anything, and there are some people who will believe it. How about that one about who was REALLY responsible for piloting two airliners into the Twin Towers, a third into the Pentagon, and a fourth into the ground? Who's it going to be this week?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 14 May 04 - 09:23 PM

"The sad thing is that, while I don't actually think this was a put up job by agents of the US administration, I wouldn't actually
be that astonished if it turned out it was. That's not anti-US bias, it's a recognition of the fact that dirty tricks can get quite remarkably dirty."

Thanks. I too, do not actually believe it was set-up but I also believe that the admin. is putting their own spin on it. The murderer was a Jordanian not AQ. Why didn't the Americans give Berg safe passage and what was the connection between Berg and Moussaoui?

I doubt if we will ever get the straight information on this and I also doubt if we will ever punish those responsible for the torture of Iraqi prisoners. Wasn't it Rumsfeld who in 2002 stated that these were not actually POWS and that the same rules did not apply? What kind of a message was that to give to the troops. He left it pretty wide open didn't he.

The trouble with the Bush admin. is that they do not actually know their enemy. They chased Bin Laden (AQ) and bombed Afghanistan in the process. Then they decided to blame Saddam (not AQ) and bombed the Iraqis. Now I hear rumours about Syria being on their hit list.

I have also read statements that the tribal differences in Iraq are less than the differences between Protestant and Catholics. Why is it that we are alway being told that U.S. has to be bring democracy to Iraq? The Iraqi people want the U.S. to go home. They are not interested in Christian missionaries either.

A Jordanian terrorist beheaded a U.S. businessman who was there fair and square? I doubt it. I think people should consider all of the angles. There is nothing wrong with questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 14 May 04 - 08:11 PM

cnn did report a bizarre connection with the unfortunate Berg and Moussaoui (the so-called 20th hijacker) apparently on a bus or something Moussaoui & Berg sat next to each other. And somehow Moussaoui and Berg shared the same password to some account.

the action intended is to instill terror. (more than anything it backfired, as it takes attention away from the Abu Graib prisoner abuse. It certainly does little to promote their cause except perhaps with the most diehard islamic extremists. Even Hamas and Hizbollah condemn it.

whatever you want to call the terrorists that murdered Berg, - they were undeniably cowards(why not take off the headgear?) and racists.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Pogo
Date: 14 May 04 - 07:49 PM

" The murder of this young man was a calculated action intended to achieve certain effects. Quite what these effects are intended to be is uncertain. "

Can't remember who said this. But I believe we've seen the effects it intended played out right in this thread.

That's all...

:)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 04 - 07:20 PM

Never boring, bengi. What's your point?

Wolfgang, oddly enough, just a little while ago I was reading the following article from Reuters. I was thinking to myself as I read it, that it reminded me a bit of a thread someone posted sometime in the last few months about a similar sort of conflict in Sudan. In that thread, someone said the reason the US hasn't done anything to help is because there isn't any oil in Sudan.

I thought that was worth checking out, and when I did, I discovered that Sudan does indeed have oil, and that the oil is a big part of the basis for the problems there. So after reading the article by Reuters about what's going on in Nigeria, I did a search and discovered that Nigeria is one of the world's leading oil producers. Is this a coincidence? I don't know. My gut says maybe not.

Nigerian Muslims Recount Horror of Attack

Excerpt:

"YELWA, Nigeria (Reuters) - Hafsat Garba wept as she recounted how heavily armed Christian militiamen, stripped to the waist and wearing charms on their arms, invaded her home town.

The 36-year-old mother of two was one of hundreds of Muslim women abducted by the warriors during a two-day assault on the central Nigerian town of Yelwa in which hundreds were killed."

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 04 - 06:57 PM

I agree with Nerd there, and that's why I think it unlikely that it's a put-up job - not because I think there could never be elements within the regime that might be capable of sinking to that level.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 14 May 04 - 05:51 PM

Fair enough, Nerd. Thanks for your enlightening post. I am at least a little less confused now. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 14 May 04 - 05:41 PM

Like Big Mick, I think it's exceedingly unlikely the beheading was orchestrated by the US. Those who ordered it would need an operative who could convincingly be mistaken for a known Arab terrorist, who was willing to cut another man's head off with a knife, and whom they could trust to maintain complete secrecy about it afterward. Quite apart from how dirty they're willing to get, would they gamble their careers on such a person, if they didn't have to? This is quite a trick to be pulling out of their asses, and it could easily backfire on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 04 - 05:39 PM

True, Wolfgang. IMO, the lack of action in Rwanda will be a greater shame to the Western powers than anything we do, or don't do in the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 May 04 - 05:34 PM

On one of the back pages of my newspaper of today was this little item (I translate it in full lenght:

600 Christians killed in Nigeria

According to church officials, seemingly as an act of retaliation Muslim youths have killed 500 to 600 Christians in the town of Kano in the North of Nigeria. "Close to 600 people have been killed and 12 churches have been burnt down", a spokesman of the Christian Union of Nigeria declared on Thursday. Armoured with knives and clubs, Muslim youths have chased Christians who are in the minority in this region. (End of quote)

Well, it was Africa, but it could have been somewhere else, the murderers in this case were Muslims, but it could have been Christians just as well. I don't post this to tell you that one particular death is irrelevant compared to so many. I post it for I guess my initial reaction was similar to yours and this reaction tells a lot about our biases.

At first I just read on. I had read a long article about Rumsfeld in Iraq, another about Nick Berg, one more about proven and suspected American crimes in Iraq, so this was just another short notice.

Then I stopped: 600 killed with knives and clubs? Many of these murders must have looked similar to, or worse than the murder of Nick Berg. Two differences spring to mind:
(1) No pictures available from Nigeria (at least not to me)
(2) Neither the victims nor the perpetrators are Westerners

Twelve churches burnt, but one of the three big TV news of today was one mosque probably damaged by American fire. The focus of attention is completely on what happens to or by the Western nations. Even those here who blame the USA wherever they can (sorry, feel they have to) dosplay the same bias.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 14 May 04 - 05:29 PM

KimC, I quote you:

I am confused about the Al Qaeda/Iraq connection/non-connection.

Now I quote me:

This is what I meant earlier when I suggested you were a victim of US Government Propaganda. It was not intended as a slur on you, just as an observation that their attempts to confuse you have succeeded.

The quote from you was what I was referring to in the one from me. You had already said you were confused.

I agree that the media bear some of the responsibility for this, by the way. They report leaked information uncritically, and much of it is now coming from our government, so they act as a propaganda machine.

I'm glad you didn't think the war was retaliation for 9-11. Unfortunately, in my opinion the violation of UN resolutions was another silly excuse. Why is the UN wise enough to create resolutions, but not wise enough to choose how it enforces them? Logically, either the UN is ineffectual, in which case their resolutions are meaningless, or they are effective, in which case THEY can decide when to send peacekeepers. Anything else is Bush trying to have his cake and eat it too. Also, other countries are in violation of various UN resolutions, including Turkey, to whom we gave billions of dollars in graft so they would help us in this war, and Israel, whom I generally support but whose government now is frightening and needs to go.

As for your statement that "It seems like I remember Hillary Clinton saying on Meet the Press or something, that during the Clinton administration, a good portion of the UN, as well as herself AND her husband, believed Hussein had WMDs or was trying to get them," that's not specific enough for even an unfrozen caveman lawyer, let alone a real one. You subsequent statement that "Bill Clinton's on record saying he certainly believed it" is no better. There is no controversy as to whether Saddam EVER had WMD during the last fourteen years (since Clinton took office). We know that he did. Clinton was president for the eight years directly after the first Gulf War. We knew SH had WMD at the end of that war, so he obviously had them during part of Clinton's presidency. The point was that inspectors had been visiting Iraq, and huge amounts of WMD were confirmed as having been destroyed during all of Clinton's and Bush II's presidencies. So the situation in 2002 was not the same as it had been at whatever time Clinton got his intelligence.

There WERE a small amount of weapons that the inspectors classed as "unaccounted for." This does NOT necessarily mean they were stockpiled somewhere, it could simply be that records of their destruction were not kept scrupulously enough. This is what inspectors (who despite Bush's weird blunder/lie, WERE let into Iraq) were there for. Of the inspectors themselves, Hans Blix did not think it was time for war, and Scott Ritter spoke out quite forcefully against it. The American regime used weapons inspectors' reports as a justification for ignoring weapons inspectors' recommendations, and UN resolutions as a justification for ignoring the UN's wishes.

Finally, a great example of conservative think-tank spin is the idea of "weapons of mass destruction" itself. It's so general as to be nearly meaningless, because so many products and so many labs could be used to create chemical weapons. In your house you have products that could be used to create chemical weapons, like Chlorine bleach. So when we are told that a country has "WMD related program activities" it is utterly meaningless; if you have bleach and a stove, you can be accused of that. But people still use the phrase as if it means something.

Of course, we have drifted a good deal from the main topic here, which was that a Jordanian terrorist commited a horrible atrocity with a knife.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 04 - 05:20 PM

The sad thing is that, while I don't actually think this was a put up job by agents of the US administration, I wouldn't actually be that astonished if it turned out it was. That's not anti-US bias, it's a recognition of the fact that dirty tricks can get quite remarkably dirty.

I see that Hamas has now also denounced it, as well as Hezbollah.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 14 May 04 - 05:10 PM

"Q: And why would world leaders believe something for which there was no hard evidence?

A: Because for moths they were relentlessly fed sexed-up intelligence and outright lies by the "leader of the free world"."


Try years instead of months (you meant "months," right?)- apparently they believed it from Clinton too. Bill Clinton's on record saying he certainly believed it. Where did he get his intelligence? The Saddam thing was going on long before W took office. Anyhow, Saddam's not a complete idiot; and while no one's yet found any WMDs (although they did find fighter jets buried in the desert), they have found evidence that research was taking place.

Prohibition-era law enforcement believed Al Capone was behind a lot of stuff, but they had no hard proof of his involvement in murder, bootlegging, organized crime, etc. He was tried and convicted for income tax evasion. Maybe not a great analogy, but it's the best I could think of at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 04 - 04:48 PM

All you two faced assholes that are complaining about what the Iraqis did would be talking out the other face if Iraq invaded us like we did them and an American cut off one of their heads. We should not be there in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 May 04 - 12:21 PM

And by the way. Those that suggest the possibility that this was a setup by the US powers that be to take the heat off, is the best example that I have ever seen of the anti US bias by some here. There is no basis for the implication and it is irresponsible. Isn't it bad enough that we have to deal with this tragic war? There is no need to suggest these things. The facts are plenty enough to fuel conviction. When you use this stupid tactic, you marginalize yourselves to any reasonable person.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 May 04 - 12:18 PM

Homeless, get real, will ya? If I were under immediate threat for my life, an armed intruder in my home for example, I would become a deadly killer with any weapon available. That is decidely different, extending your example, to if I had captured the perp, handcuffed him/her, set up a video camera, and taped myself stating why I was doing this and then cutting off his/her head while s/he screams their life away. Yours is an example of trying to alibi your position using ridiculous examples. I agree that terrorism is usually a sign of an overwhelmed and under weaponed group using whatever means available. I agree that the US leadership is altogether to damn willing to excuse the civilian collateral killings. I agree that the Iraqui's have a right to the government of their choosing. But there is no, I repeat - NO, excuse for this execution or the manner in which it was done.

But ... there is also no excuse for trying to use this execution to take the heat off our transgressions there. What has been done in the prisons, and we have yet to hear the worst, needs to be dealt with swiftly and surely. All the way up the line.

This person is a savage killer. He needs to be treated as such.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Homeless
Date: 14 May 04 - 12:03 PM

I usually avoid threads like this, and after reading the first half of this one I remember why. I see a whole lot of specific *words* being slung around with what appears to me (and I may be wrong) little to no thought behind them.
What is a "terrorist"? Someone who fights for a cause? Someone who uses tactics other than the ones that your side uses? IOW, a guerrilla? Like the American Revolution's Minutemen?
"Subhuman", "fanatic", "perpetrator". It's really easy to justify eradicating someone who isn't as good as you, isn't it?
"Kidnap" So if I ever get arrested, I can charge the police with kidnapping?
"Innocent man". Hoo-boy, this is a good one. How many of you personally knew Berg? Do you have proof that he was just dumb and there on his own, rather than having any military or political connections? I'm not claiming this guy was a CIA spook, but I will say that the little bit of information we get thru the media is always watered down, filtered, and always slanted to get a reaction. And that is after it goes thru the government filters. Did his executioners have reason to believe he was a spy or merc?

None of this necessarily reflects my opinion, but is only meant to get everyone to think a little bit, and question themselves about how much they *know* vs how much is repeated propaganda.

I will state one opinion tho. My thoughts on the videotaping of the beheading. There have been lots of suggestions about the tape - it was barbaric, meant to stir up hostility, etc. I suggest that it was intended at a statement of strength of commitment. If I were in the position of defending my home, I would most definitely want the invaders to know that I was not playing a game and that I intended to be rid of them and damn the cost. I would hope that if they were to realize that they would have to genocide the 'natives', they would decide the gains were not worth the effort and leave.

I admit I've not seen the video or stills, but have heard that the process did not go smoothly, i.e. it was "barbaric". How many of you have ever started something only to find it didn't go as planned? Do you think these masked men do this on a regular basis, or was this possibly the first time? And they found it wasn't as easy as expected? If you think I'm wrong on this, I want you to try something. We've probably all heard of people breaking bottles to use as weapons, either for bar fights, prison riots or whatever. In the movies it's so easy - just grab it by the neck and smack it on any convenient table or head and get a nice pointed weapon. I propose you get a wine or beer bottle, take it outside and break it like they do in the movies. Let me know if anyone breaks it on the first try. Oh, I would strongly suggest you wear heavy gloves when doing this.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,still-frozen caveman
Date: 14 May 04 - 11:15 AM

"My understanding is that the world leaders DID believe he had/was trying to develop the weapons, there just wasn't enough hard evidence to support it."

Q: And why would world leaders believe something for which there was no hard evidence?

A: Because for moths they were relentlessly fed sexed-up intelligence and outright lies by the "leader of the free world".

Remember how all the right-wing commentators demanded that the anti-war folks apologize after we "won" the war in Iraq (even though no one as anti-war because they thought we would lose)? Quite the contrary, many were anti-war because we believed that a)there was no evidence that Iraq had weapons that presented an direct or immediate threat to the US, and b) there's more than a little hypocrisy in an invasion of a country who MIGHT (despite the lack of hard evidence) have WMDs by a country who has more WMDs than the rest of the world combined. Still no evidence of WMDs. In fact, the hunt has been abandoned hasn't it? Shall WE now demand apologies?

And, for the record, I believe the killing of Nick Berg was a hideous atrocity. I hope that we Americans are better than that. I hope our leaders are better than that. I will not feel that we have won if we BECOME that to win.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 May 04 - 11:08 AM

Mike, your post was a well reasoned explanation, and in theory I can buy into it. But I must point out that when some are so bereft of moral values that they can commit this type of brutally savage act, they are usually beyond redemption. I agree totally that, in the main, we must find common ground with the insurgents. It is, after all, their country. Bush's attempts to create some sort of western democracy in a country that has no basis upon which to establish such a creature is delusional, at best. My point about the perpetrators of the beheading stand. These folks, at least, need to be cast into the deepest, darkest cell available and left there to rot. By the way, my opinion is much the same for those that beat Iraqui prisoners to death and then posed with the bodies. I do not believe that this is what the majority, or even a significant minority of US or British troops are about. My basis for this comes from another time when I was aware of troops pointing M16's at those who sought to commit atrocities. These same troops refused orders to do so.

It is constructive to remember that troops are usually 18 to 22 year old kids, who a year before were playing football on Friday nights. They are cast into a situation of unimaginable horror to all but those who have experienced it. It is up to senior non coms and officers to establish the protocols and conditions which allow these young people to maintain a sense of honor and civilized behaviour. It requires a sense of values on the part of the Senior levels of the command structure. That is what I see missing here. And it is why, if there is any justice left in the US system, the most senior people will take the fall for what is happening. May they rot.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 14 May 04 - 09:38 AM

Thanks barrygeo.

It seems like I remember Hillary Clinton saying on Meet the Press or something, that during the Clinton administration, a good portion of the UN, as well as herself AND her husband, believed Hussein had WMDs or was trying to get them. My understanding is that the world leaders DID believe he had/was trying to develop the weapons, there just wasn't enough hard evidence to support it.

But then again, I'm just an unfrozen caveman.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: barrygeo
Date: 14 May 04 - 08:19 AM

Kim C
A couple of comments

"I thought it was retaliation for the last 12 years that Saddam Hussein flouted all the UN resolutions he said he would keep"

My recollection is that weapons of mass destruction and a real and immediate threat was the reason for the war. If memory serves me the UN refused to sanction the war. If all UN resolutions were enforced as vigourously by the US perhaps the region would be less unstable. More importantly it now appears that intelligence reports were sexed up (certainly in the UK) to justify the war.

"Maybe he was just pulling a good bluff to look like a big man in front of his supporters."

In my limited experience of the Arab world (as distinct from the muslim world) saving face with one's peers in a major factor. If Saddam had failed to face down the US he would have been finished anyway because of perceived humiliation in the eyes of other Arabs.
Remember comical Alli trying to save face by claiming the US forces were defeated while tanks roled along behind him. He wasn't nuts he was trying to save face.

Fionn, isn't the IRA still around?
The IRA is still around but the violence has been greatly reduced. As long as they(IRA) are being offered reasonable alternatives the popular support for violence dissappears. No terrorist group can survive without a level of popular support to hide them and feed them. In ireland it is looking like we are moving towards the end game and that the most extreme unionists will be able to do business with the most extreme nationalists once violence and the threat of violence is removed from the equation. Words have acheived more in ten years than the entire Brithish army and intelligence agencies could in 30 years.

Violence begets Violence - dialogue is the only solution.
Both Bush and Blair proclaim themselves as Christians doing their Christian duty - they must read a different version of the Bible than mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 04 - 08:16 AM

I would never claim that the voice analysts, or any analysts working for the CIA, are "unimpeachable" because in the US at least, both the FBI and the CIA are largely seen as the Keystone Cops.

I'm with Senator John McCain (the Washington Post did a long article on him this week). He said he can't figure out for the life of him how it is that George Tenet still has his job at CIA. He, like me, figures he must have some real damaging evidence against Bush, et al. he is using against them. Maybe Shrub I left some personal items behind when he left...

And at the end of the day, if you don't have the information, you shouldn't make it up and use it for propaganda, because it will always come back and bite you in the ass. Which keeps happening with Bush, et al, but we haven't seen it really hurt them at this point. Sure Bush is plummeting in the polls. Sure most Democrats will vote for Kerry only because he isn't Bush, not because he would make a good president. Sure we're screwed either way, come November.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 14 May 04 - 08:05 AM

GUEST 14 May 04 - 07:51 AM,

So when voice analysts state that whatever message comes across from Osama bin Laden, they are unimpeachable sources.

When same voice analysts state that the message on the audio track of the Berg execution is the voice of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, they are talking rubbish and totally unreliable.

Whatever.....

At the end of the day you can only run with the information you have.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 04 - 07:51 AM

al-Zarqawi is Jordanian (you see KimC, the nationality of the killers does matter--if it were Iraqi insurgents, US troops truly would be screwed).

Unfortunately, it is the one source of information that lacks credibility, the Bush administration, that is telling us who the man behind the scarf is. Is it al-Zarqawil because the CIA says so? How credible is the US CIA? US military intelligence? The Pentagon?

Answer: not credible at all.

For quite some time now, the Bush administration has been claiming that al-Zarqawi is the cause of all our Iraqi woes, and not Iraqi insurgents. Except that information has turned out to be wrong too. It is clear the vast majority of unrest and violence is coming from anti-occupation Iraqi resistance fighters. But the Bush administration refuses to admit that is our greatest problem in Iraq, because it would mean admitting that we won all the battles, but lost the war because of our own racism, arrogance, and superiority complex.

We've got the oil though, and that is why the Bush administration won't be pulling out any time soon. Both Bush and Kerry are saying they want to internationalize the troops and the political process. But neither one of them is saying they will internationalize the oil and all those lucrative "rebuilding" contracts, are they? No sirrreee. The Iraqi spoils of war go to us, and our coalition of the willing to plunder.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: SueB
Date: 14 May 04 - 03:05 AM

Wow! That was the best post from Teribus ever!

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 14 May 04 - 02:11 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 14 May 04 - 01:55 AM

I alluded to the answer of that question in a parallel thread, here, Diana, and I quoted from this article (can't access it myself now, though; it's a 'subscription' page)

I think however, that whatever 'indepencence' some of these organisations had before the invasion of Iraq, quite a lot of them do now see themselves as part of the larger Bin Laden 'network', insofar as some of their 'short-term' aims are concerned.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 14 May 04 - 01:19 AM

Jim - Probably is Abu Musab al-Zarqawi but since when was he linked to AQ? Seems that German Intelligence has linked him to a militant cell of Jordanians who did not want to belong to AQ. So just who does he represent, anyway? Is he just another mercenary for hire?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 14 May 04 - 12:21 AM

I heard this evening that voice analysts have more or less concluded that the voice on the tape is indeed that of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 13 May 04 - 11:45 PM

Kim C - "somehow he himself had most of the world leaders believing he was hiding something". Not actually. Most of the world leaders said there was no proof and therefore no reason. Bush decided to "go it alone." That is not most of the world leaders.

I agree with guest - we still do not know who was behind the scarves.

For all we know, it was set-up to take the heat off the Bush admin. and justify further aggression.

Thank-you Fionn for enlightening all of us.

The only way to neutralize terrorism is to listen to their grievances and reach a compromise. Every time you kill a terrorist, you create five more to take the place.

The Iraqi people are innocent victims of two war lords - Bush and Saddam. One is no better than the other.

Lepus Rex - Martin can't dance.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 04 - 10:23 PM

You all are trying to be too clever about this... When Bush said "Bring it on" there were folks willing and capable of doing just that. His littel cowboy sideshow has now come home to haunt him... Like who couldn't see that this was going to happen? No, not specifics but something... It seems to me that Bush and company think the only way that they can stay in power is to provoke other folks to do some pretty bad stuff. Hey, the fact that the US has killed upwards of 20,000 Iraqis is immaterial to Bush and his cronies... Just get the film footage of the killing of one poor American and the 20,000 go away... Hmmmmmm?

What a crock!!!

What a crock...

Yeah, tell the brothers, sisters, parents of any one of the 20,000 'er so Iraqi dead that the only thing on our minds is the death one American! Yeah, go tell 'um. I dare you...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 04 - 10:07 PM

Who,indeed was behind those scarves? That's just it. It could have been anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 13 May 04 - 10:06 PM

Fionn, isn't the IRA still around?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 13 May 04 - 09:31 PM

Cracking post, Bill (the Stage Manager). The bit beginning "I suspect if we all think long and hard enough" comes right to the point. It is DougR's tragedy that he can't or won't do that - possibly because he is now senior in years, which would explain why his shallow thnking is, by and large, tolerated with good grace. I doubt if the same excuse is available to Martin Gibson. I would have devoted a post exclusively to his unpleasant ravings if Lepus (whose posts are not always my cup of tea) had not disposed of his arguments with such clinical efficiency.

Responding to the Stage Manager, Kim said: "Bill, I don't know that anyone has ever neutralized terrorism at all." There are many recent examples. In Northern Ireland, Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, both one-time IRA activists, are now senior politicians. Nelson Mandela, leader of the ANC - once denounced by many in the US and the UK as terrorist commies - became a world statesman.

Likewise Jomo Kenyatta, one-time leader of the Mau Mau insurgency (which when all propaganda has been removed from the equation killed about 35 people in total), who went on to be president of Kenya. Likewise Menachem Begin, a former terrorist by his own account, who eventually signed a peace accord with Anwar Sadat.

Perhaps most instructive of all, extremist Hutus who partipated in Rwanda's genocidal slaughter of 1994, in which atrocities at least as unpleasant as the Berg beheading occurred at a rate of thousans a day (with no exceptions made for women and children), are being released from detention and back into the communities they did so much to destroy, on condition only that they acknowledge their crimes.

To a no-brainer like DougR this will be unfathomable, but to Rwanda's Tutsis (and moderate Hutus), who were on the receiving end of the terror, it offers the only prospect of building harmony and long-term prosperity in a poor country.

Only with the Bush administration have we been introduced to the certainty that terrorists are always wrong, can have no legitimate grievances and can never change their spots.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 13 May 04 - 08:22 PM

the intended effect of this action is actually quite certain.
to instill terror.

the goal along with that is to delay, or discourage reconstruction
in Iraq, by creating fear and instability. This will certainly make people think twice before working there. In the same way that the bombings of the UN headquarters did last year, and the bombings of the Shiites during the religious festival -

although the people who were against the war, are even more against it. And those who supported it use this to show the inhumanity of the enemy.

interesting that Hizbollah, condemned the execution, not only because it doesnt do much to advance the extreme Islamist cause, but the timing of it takes world attention away from the abuses in Abu Ghraib prison.

(which I might add does damage the moral grounds behind the invasion, so to speak the last leg it had to stand on, after the wmds) On the other hand the abuse differs from Saddams 50 daily executions at Abu Ghraib, in orders of magnitude. ANd every country in the area without exception has much worse psyhological and physical torture routinely practiced in ints prisons. A fact rarely mentioned in AL Jazeera.

ironic too, that the methods are to use the tools of globalism against itself - digital cameras and the internet. (as were airliners
and skyscrapers in 911)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 04 - 07:10 PM

"Dehumanise" the enemy, and you start to underestimate them, and that is always a mstake. "Dehumanise" the people who aren't the enemy to start with, and you turn them into the enemy.

The murder of this young man was a calculated action intended to achieve certain effects. Quite what these effects are intended to be is uncertain.

Getting people to see this group as a major player in the confusing war going on in Iraq would presumably have been one of them. Another is surely to ensure that the Americans will respond in a way that makes more people in Iraq resent their presence, and see anybody whomis fighting them as on their side. (Which in fact is very unlikely to be the case, especially when it comes to the kind of people who killed Nicholas Berg.)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 13 May 04 - 05:51 PM

An excellent post, Bill.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 13 May 04 - 05:46 PM

Bill, I don't know that anyone has ever neutralized terrorism at all. Anyhow, that was a really good post.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: The Stage Manager
Date: 13 May 04 - 05:38 PM

I utterly abhor the act of desperate barbarism inflicted upon Nicholas Berg and his family. Nobody should ever have to suffer that way through such an indiscriminate act of savagery. At the same time I do not accept that this act was perpetrated by persons who should be considered as 'subhuman'. I believe the murderers to be both fully human and fully aware of what they were doing.


It has always been my understanding that demonising "the enemy" is a necessity of war. The belief that the enemy is somehow 'subhuman' or in someway 'inferior' is surely a prerequisite (or even an excuse) that enables soldiers to perform their duties with the full support of their governments and countrymen. If we take this view wholeheartedly then there is no act, however abhorrent, that cannot be inflicted on an enemy, and ultimately justified in the name of defence or imposing a 'better' or 'more human' regime.      

I feel we have to resist all attempts at demonisation, and take the view we are all equally human. And because we are all equally human we are all equally capable of these 'subhuman' acts if pushed hard enough and into a corner.   I suspect if we all think long and hard enough we could all identify circumstances in which we might kill another human being, particularly if we felt that we, and our families, were being threatened.

If we take the view that someone is a fanatic, religious or otherwise, and is somehow subhuman, then we must also accept the probability that they view us in the same light, regardless of how loftily we view our own motives, and we therefore have to accept the inevitable consequences of this. I honestly believe this was probably the case with those who perpetrated 9/11 and Berg's murder. They believe America and Americans to be 'subhuman'.

Surely this way lies madness and conflicts that no amount of firepower, brute force, or "Shock & Awe" are going to resolve. I perceive the real Iraq war starting the moment President Bush stood on that aircraft carrier and announced "Mission Accomplished", a remark that I find is sounding ever more hollow and fatuous as events unfold and the body count increases.

Resolution?   I believe it begins with looking the "enemy" straight in the eye and acknowledging common humanity, and everything, including the abyss, that this involves. Otherwise the result is Assured Mutual Destruction, not in an instant perhaps, but inevitable none the less.   

Like it or not "Terrorists" are as human as the rest of us and we have to find a way of engaging with them if we are to end the conflict. I'm not aware that anyone has ever neutralised terrorism by bombing the shit out of all and sundry. Quite the contrary in fact.

Bill

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 13 May 04 - 05:16 PM

Martin Gibson: "Tap dance?" And what is it that I'm "tap dancing" away from, genius? Have any examples of my Jew-hating, Holocaust-denying ways? See, if you're going to make a claim like that, you need, uh, evidence. For instance, when I called you a racist, and compared your anti-Arab anti-Semitism to Nazism, I had abundant evidence to back up my claims. Provided by you, in this thread, even.

So, either prove it, be silent, or surrender. You're not capable of smearing me.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 13 May 04 - 04:45 PM

Nerd, I knew none of the hijackers was from Iraq, and I also never was of the opinion that the war in Iraq was retaliation for 9/11. I thought it was retaliation for the last 12 years that Saddam Hussein flouted all the UN resolutions he said he would keep, and because somehow he himself had most of the world leaders believing he was hiding something. Maybe he was just pulling a good bluff to look like a big man in front of his supporters.

Anyhow I think the news media are partly to blame for people's confusion. Since we are able to transmit news almost instantaneously, a lot of things get reported before all the facts are there; then we all see different stories in different sources, and sit around going, "I read this," "Oh really? Well, I read THAT," "no, wait a minute, I read something else entirely."

In my mind, a story isn't proper news until all the facts have been gathered and checked out. I think they used to do that in the old days before instant communications.

Ebbie, understanding grievances is the optimum way of handling disputes between people who want to listen to reason. I'm afraid terrorists don't fall into that category. I don't know the answer either.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 May 04 - 04:26 PM

"Terrorism is evil and must be destroyed. "

Granted. However, terrorism is not a snake in the grass or an elephant or a human being that can be eradicated with guns. Terrorism is a means to terrorize for whatever purpose. As such, it's not something you can kill. It's an idea, a mindset, a cloud in the sky, nothing concrete that you can grasp.

Look at the people who create and spread computer viruses for an example of non-lethal terrorism- you can run along behind the viruses and kill each one as they become evident but you can't kill the person that's going to do it beforehand or even so much as stop the person before s/he does sets it free on the world.

The worst thing about hunting down and killing those who terrorize in the name of country, religion or family is that in the act of killing one terrorist you are creating another. And there will always be another generation...

Is there anything that does work? I dunno. Understanding grievances would be a start.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 13 May 04 - 04:00 PM

KimC,

Some Al Qaeda members are from Iraq, but not many. Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden, ironically, hate each other, and Saddam never supported Al Qaeda's activities. Al Qaeda is an internationalist islamist movement, and Saddam was a nationalist, secular dictator. To be in Al Qaeda was automatically a vote of no confidence in Saddam, like being a communist in a monarchy would be a vote of no confidence in the king. Thus to be an Al Qaeda member was very dangerous in Iraq under Saddam.

None of the 9-11 hijackers was Iraqi. In fact, most of them came from Saudi Arabia, but you don't see us going to war there. The government has been trying to convince Americans that there was a connection between iraq and Al Qaeda, so that this war can seem like a retaliation for 9-11. In fact, this war was part of the neoconservative agenda before 9-11; it's not just Al Qaeda, but also the US government, who are using handy, trumped-up excuses to justify crimes they were going to commit anyway.

This is what I meant earlier when I suggested you were a victim of US Government Propaganda. It was not intended as a slur on you, just as an observation that their attempts to confuse you have succeeded.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 13 May 04 - 03:27 PM

I meant the people fighting AGAINST the Coalition.

Subject: RE: BS: "Al Qaeda" beheads an American
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 04 - 02:33 PM

"Iraqi" referred to "people fighting on the side of Iraq".

But isn't "the Coalition" supposed to be fighting on behalf of the the Iraqi people?

...............

I stiill can't see where there is a clear line between speculation, where the facts are not clear, and "conspiracy theories". It seesm to me that most theories are conpiracy theories, but some are plausible and based on evidence, and some are not. After all, the link between Al Qaeda and 911 is based on theories about a conspiracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 13 May 04 - 02:32 PM

There are some people who cannot differentiate between a palestinian terrorist blowing up a bomb in a mall which kills innocent woman and children, and an Ireali pinpoint attack on a Hamas leader that unintentionally kills one of the terrorists family member.    These people see no difference between these two acts. I feel sorry for them.

There are some people who cannot differentiate between a terrorist purposely beheading a civilian (for the crime of trying to rebuild Iraq) and an American bombing a terrorist camp which kills civilians that are being used by the terrorists as shields.   These people will say "americans are killing innocent children as well".   I feel equally as sorry for these people as well.   They clearly have lost their ability to think clearly.

Yes- I do believe there is wrong and right.   Yes-I understand that it depends on what side of the aisle you are coming from.   My guess is that Jeffrey Dalmer and Ted Kucinzki both adamently believed in what they were doing.    So did Hitler.    There are some people who will defend Hitler. Hey- he was a vegetarian, and a vehement anti smoker. Therefore, he can't be all bad.

He still was evil.   We can argue what is good and what is evil. Sometimes it is hard to tell.   In the case of terrorism, it is not hard to tell.   Terrorism is evil and must be destroyed.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 May 04 - 02:31 PM

Jim,

Thanks for the careful examination and thoughtful comments on the beheading video. I especially appreciated the fact that you made note of the synchronization irregularities. I have not seen the video, only some of the picture frames from it(I tried to find it on-line, but couldn't find a link that worked), and I hadn't realized degree of editing that had been done. Your speculation about the time differences is certainly a possibility--and not one that anyone else seems to have come up with--

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 May 04 - 02:30 PM

Lupus Rex

would you like a top hat and cane to go with your tap dance?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 13 May 04 - 02:20 PM

Wolfgang: Ah, you're right that no-one on this thread has called a race (your definition or mine) "subhuman." Thanks for the correction. However, I still feel that the use of the word to describe "the enemy" is dangerous and Nazi-like, and especially so coming from right-wingers. All I originally suggested to DougR was that this statement was out of character for him, and that he should perhaps reconsider his choice of words.

Big Mick: Where has anyone said that the kid deserved to die? (Excellent points, otherwise, though, especially about the motivations of "terrorists.") Since it was me who first brought up the word "profiteer," I assume that I'm the source of the confusion. If so, know that my initial statement should be read as "no-one, even parasitic war profiteers, should die such a horrible death." Which is pretty much the opposite of "he deserved to die."

Martin Gibson: Heh, I'd be able to take you more seriously if I didn't "hear" your posts with the voice of an outraged Jerry Stiller. Relax. I didn't "deny the Holocaust." I just told you to stop whining about it to gain sympathy and "score points." That's an incredibly cheap way of trying to win an argument, especially for a Jew. Speaking of Jews, where did I express any hatred for them? I mean, if you're going to accuse me of something, be accurate, as I was when I called you a racist. Don't just pull crazy shit out of your ass.

So, about the gaps in the video... I haven't actually viewed the video, so anyone who has (Jim McCallan, for instance): is Berg actually moving/screaming, obviously alive during the actual beheading? Or was he perhaps dead before the beheading?

And thanks, gargoyle, for indirectly reminding me that I'm out of kimchi. I'll pick some up this afternoon.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 May 04 - 02:12 PM

Bobert, you and I agree on more than we disagree. On this we disagree. Anyone, in any Army or group, that executes someone in this manner, just to make a point, is a savage. Period. IMO, of course.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 13 May 04 - 01:19 PM

Indeed, I am a Her, and I will admit to being ignorant of a good many things. I will also admit I am confused about the Al Qaeda/Iraq connection/non-connection.

What you're saying then, is AQ doesn't really give a rip about Iraq, they're just using it as a political football, as it were; taking advantage of the situation. That ain't very nice. I'll admit I hadn't really thought about that. Someone else earlier mentioned that the execution squad likely would have killed Berg, or anyone else who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, regardless of the prison scandal, that they just used that for a handy excuse.

Aren't some of the AQ members from Iraq? Or are most of them from other countries? Mister did make the comment the other day that a good number of the people fighting against us there are not themselves Iraqis.

Gets more muddled by the moment, don't it?

Y'all, please don't be calling each other Nazis and the like. It makes bad medicine and negative energy and I think there's already quite enough of that to go around. Try to disagree like gentlemen. I know your mamas taught you manners.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 May 04 - 12:59 PM

Lupus Rex

You are a Nazi and subhuman, a filthy rat, and a maggot. go ahead, hate America, hate the Jews and post your hate for them and deny the holocaust while you are at it as you did.

Defend the Islams who did it for allah.

You obviously don't know the difference between evil and good. I'm sure your life is a pathetic void.

Larry K and DougR are so right on.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 13 May 04 - 12:52 PM

I would also like to add that, while I do understand the use of "Iraqi" to mean "those fighting on the side of Iraq," remember that Al Qaeda is not doing so. They are fighting for fanatical pan-Arabist and indeed pan-Islamist extremism. The fact that they hitched this beheading to the prison abuse scandal doesn't mean they are fighting for Iraq; they were committing such atrocities, including 9/11, when they were open enemies of Iraq. They are opportunists, and will claim to be defending the Iraqi people against American aggression, so they can mislead innocent Iraqis. If this was indeed Al Qaeda, we should NOT confuse them with "Iraq," or assume that things we do to innocent Iraqis will avenge acts committed by Al Qaeda, even if Al Qaeda is now, in the wake of our disastrous invasion, infiltrating Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 13 May 04 - 12:42 PM

Oops, sorry about the spelling boo-boo. "Propoganda" indeed! And as I said, Kim C has already said it was an honest mistake and I believe her. (Er, is Kim C a her? some of the Kims I know are men....)

Although it does seem to have either made an honest mistake or to be withholding evidence as to how they know the executioneers were Iraqi, the very interesting reuters article Kim C posts in her 12:09 PM posting should maybe shut up the nuts who shout "where is all the Arab outrage about the beheading?" Here's a hint boys: you don't get Saudi TV, so how would you know if there WERE Arab outrage? You assuming there isn't says more about you than about Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 13 May 04 - 12:16 PM

PS - If someone wants to change the title of the thread, go ahead. I really don't want a simple posting of a news story to be mistaken for "right-wing propoganda [sp]supporting a neoconservative agenda."

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 13 May 04 - 12:09 PM

Hizbollah Condemns Beheading

This story refers to the execution squad as "Iraqi militants." I guess they made an honest mistake too. In my mind, "Iraqi" referred to "people fighting on the side of Iraq." Let me apologize (again) for not being specific enough. I assure you all (again)it was not an intentional distortion - I was speaking in general terms. Apparently no one has any definite evidence as to the actual nationality of the executioners.

As I stated before, I thought the issue deserved equal time. If that qualifies as a rebuttal, so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 13 May 04 - 11:23 AM

Uh, DougR, I hate to disagree with you (actually, I love to disagree with you, but usually on more important matters) but I don't think this was started with all the grace, equanimity and reason that Rick would have brought to it. In fact, the title shows that it was started as a kind of rebuttal to "American soldiers torturing iraquis." But these people were probably not Iraqi, and there is only one American involved, which makes two significant distortions in a thread name of only three words! Although Kim claims this to have been an honest mistake, it is still the same kind of distorton that allowed George Bush to convince most Americans that Iraq sent over the 9-11 Hijackers. This is not a balanced or even accurate statement of the situation. It is instead right-wing propoganda supporting a neoconservative agenda, whether intentionally so or not.

This, I think, is why it upset some of us. I think Rick Fielding would have been more careful.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: S O P
Date: 13 May 04 - 11:15 AM

Hey Bobert:

There's a new Michael Moore movie comin' out. He has the truth, he'll cure what ails ya since you will obviously believe anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 04 - 10:59 AM

What "democracy", GUEST, can you be talking about? And the Repubs must have done very well in government/civics oin school because they would have had to to figure out so many creative and corrupt ways to defeat democracy.

Not to creep too far here, but remember Florida? Well, in spite of being caught for illegally dumping some 90,000 black folks from the rolls, they are still doing it, not only in Florida, but now other states around the country. Talk about the arrogance or power?

Jim Crow is alive and well...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 04 - 10:59 AM

Rumsfeld testified before Congress yesterday that he supported the interrogation techniques used by the military interrogators, the results of which are in the photographic evidence. He said the lawyers OK'd everything, so that makes it OK with him.

The guy is so arrogant, and so is his boss. Today Rumsfeld flew to Iraq, to do more "kick ass" military might damage control, which is accomplished in this administration by exploiting the support for the troops.

After seeing the photographic evidence yesterday, members from both sides of the aisle said the Geneva Convention violations were much more widespread than just a few bad apples, which is the Bush administration position.

Also, the first female combat BG ever (whom the adminsitration is trying to pin the whole thing on now, thanks to Taguba's report), isn't going down without a fight. And it looks like she has a pretty good lawyer, too. They (the BG and her lawyer) are pinning this on the two highest commanders in Iraq, for stealing her troops out from under her, and from refusing to take into account her concerns over MP reservists being given authority to use lethal force in circumstances where it wasn't warranted.

Bush, IMO, is a fool not to just get the pictures out, fire Rumsfeld and Meyers (the chairman of the joint chiefs), and move on in this election year.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 13 May 04 - 10:52 AM

"His thinking is that of someone who believes he is all-powerful and above the law."

So how long have you been close personal friends with Mr. Rumsfeld?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 13 May 04 - 10:46 AM

Wolfgang - I don't think that conspiracy theorizing is necessarily wrong. Depends entirely on sources (which are pretty sketchy due to the secrecy of the U.S. govt.) and the ability to put 2 and 2 together. In fact, all we can do is speculate as to what might be happening in Iraq.

Considering that at least two of the interrogators giving orders were, in fact, contractors, we may never unravel this web of deceit. All we can do is try. In doing so we reveal the ugliness of war and awaken others to the fact that their sons and daughters are taking part in less than honourable actions abroad.

When we learn more about the chain of command in the prison, we will learn that the U.S. govt. is capable of almost any kind of 'set-up' to avoid responsibility for acts of inhumanity. Rumsfeld has never had any respect for an international code of conduct or the opinions of other countries (even allies). His thinking is that of someone who believes he is all-powerful and above the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 13 May 04 - 10:01 AM

Another story here

This story says that the Jordanian man referenced earlier may or may not have been part of the execution party.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 13 May 04 - 09:55 AM

Gargoyle, I would just appreciate it if people would be civil to each other on my thread. If they can't do it, I'd rather not have the thread be open. I don't think that has anything to do with hubris.

Kim chee may be a rotten cabbage, but it's also pretty spicy.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 04 - 09:01 AM

"Fact: Few, if any of those critisizing the US for actions in Iraq have made any comment about the actions of anti-US parties."

Most of us criticisizng the US for actions in Iraq opposed our government's decision to invade and occupy Iraq, so we have been very consistent in exercising our democratic rights of dissent. And nothing pisses you right wing nuts off more than that.

"Liberals, in general, show that they hold the other parties to a lower standard than the US- This is as racist and unreasonable as anything I can think of. They are so inferior that they cannot be held to the standards of humanity that the US is expected to observe."

No, we don't have a racist double standard. We oppose what our government is doing. There is a difference.

I, as a US citizen, can only influence my own government. By opposing my government when I feel it is wrong, I am performing my sacred duty as a citizen.

And nothing pisses you right wing nuts off more than citizen dissenters taking their duties seriously.

That is why, beardedbruce, the parties out of power are known as THE OPPOSITION. Get it? We oppose the current government, because that is our duty as citizens to try and influence the process, and have the government do what we deem right and just when acting in our name. The government works for us, capiche?

I'm beginning to think that Republicans all failed their government/civics classes in high school, because few of today's Republicans seems to know how our democratic government works.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 13 May 04 - 05:52 AM

McGrath - no sir, innocent of the charge! Not racist comments at all, but another attempt at irony - I was trying to reflect, deflect and negate the ridiculous assertions of others that people native to the Middle-East are 'subhuman', or 'savages'. I apologise to all if my skill with language wasn't sufficient to make that obvious.

Johnny :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 May 04 - 04:51 AM

Perhaps, it was quite the opposite. The video of Nick Berg was the real thing, but all the pictures showing American soldiers abusing and torturing Iraqi prisoners are fakes. They come very handy for Bin Laden's Al Qaeda at a time when the outrage about the Madrid carnage and about the bombings of Iraqi worshippers has not ended and his support in the Arab world was shrinking.

So he staged the abuse photos with the help of some paid US soldiers. His people in the American government, the Quislings who have been promised to get a big reward once his plan of Islamic world domination has succeded, leak some informations about the pictures being real in oder to dupe the senators, the public and the president (though maybe he is not duped here, but is in the scheme).

These pictures are a tremendous help to OBL, so we have to ask ourselves why are they published exactly at this time when they have been made months ago. I leave it to your guess who is profiteering from this.

Wolfgang (No, I don't mean what I have written; yes, I am serious about conspiracy theorising)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: bengi
Date: 13 May 04 - 02:35 AM

Carol c How boring is your life?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 13 May 04 - 12:08 AM

Thanks, Jim. I'm sure this was set-up. Too slimy for words.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 13 May 04 - 12:00 AM

"The video is of poor quality, and its time stamp seems to show an 11-hour lapse between when the assailants finish their statement and push Berg down, to when they behead him"

I have studied the video of the alleged beheading, this evening, and I would like to give you my own assessment of what I noticed about it.
The video starts at 13.26:24

13.26:24 - :27 Nicholas Berg sitting on a chair; camera angle from right. with hands untied "My name is Nick Berg, my father's name is Michael
2.18:33 - :43 Here he speaks straight to camera "... my mother's name is Susanne..." He then tells us his family members' names, and where he is from.
There is an obvious cut, here, as the next frame has Mr. Berg sitting on the floor, hands tied behind his back, and feet bound
2.40:03 - 2.44:12 - Speech from the terrorist in the centre of the video wearing black mask, and Mr. Berg is pushed to the floor.
13.45:47 - Video resumes, but the picture is very blurred, and the time on the video jumps eight seconds at 13.45:52 to 13.46:00
13.45:52 - 13.46:33 The 'Beheading'
13.47:47 -:53 Displaying the head of Mr. Berg
2.46:18 - :22 Displaying the head
13.48:38 - :49 A 'pan' shot circling above his head, lying on what appears to be his torso

There seems to be a synchronisation problem with sound to video; the speaker 'coughs' at one stage, but he doesn't 'cover his mouth' until a good 5 seconds after it.
The screams of this poor unfortunate man, however, are audible 7 seconds before he is pushed to the floor, and the person who made the speech is the person who is seen producing the knife and beheading Mr. Berg.
When the video cuts to 13.47:47, the person who is standing next the speaker, a tall man with a white mask, is seen holding the knife, and raising the head. A different camera angle at 2.46:18 shows the same person (apparently) displaying Mr Berg's head. I say 'apparently' because the camera shoots him with the wall as a backdrop, and not at all out of proportion to the picture. The person in the white mask who is standing next to the speaker, while he is making the speech, is the tallest of the people there, is of a different build, and the top of his head is out of camera shot. It 'looks' like a different person in the final frames of the video.

All of which may mean a lot... or nothing. The beheading seems real enough though, I am very sorry to say.

I think the video was made using two different cameras, however, and the 11 hr discrepancy that MTed refers to may be a case of the two cameras having different display settings; ie one having a 24 hr display (13.26), and the other having a 'AM/PM' display (2.40)

A one hour time difference between the where the owners of these cameras last synchronised their equipment, could account for that discrepancy.

Either way, it was an entirely academic exercise.
The fact remains that Mr Nicholas Berg spent his last moments in incredible fear and shock, and my thoughts are very much with his family this evening.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 12 May 04 - 11:55 PM

Thank Goddess for the voices of courage, reason and compasion:

bobert - "...accomplices to lots and lots of murders, including that of Nicolas Berg..."

El Greko - always within reason

McGrath - "What we should never under any circumstances do is use the crimes and atrocities committed by one side as a justification for the crimes and atrocities of the other - in the way that the butchers of that poor young man have tried to do"

M. Ted - You got it!

Strollin Johnny: "Whatever the aims of Al Q'aeda are (and I for one am not absolutely clear on that because they seem to change as time goes by)..."

Maybe their aim is to confuse and deflect the attention of the general population with terror so that the attention of the general population is diverted from the loss of freedoms at home. Maybe they're highly trained mercenaries hired by Multi-National Corporations. Maybe the U.S. and Britain and Australia weren't "sucked in at all". Your guess is as good as mine.

and you said, "...they'll just find another set of 'aims', another 'cause', more 'demands' to justify their atrocities."

Who are you talking about?

Actually, ...if it weren't for Bush being so arrogant and wanting to "...go it alone..." coupled with the fact that he 'jumped the gun' and he's a liar to boot, I might agree with you. :^)

What I want to know is Al Q'aeda's version of the story. Was the victim being accused of a crime and was this a modern version of Iraqi justice by public execution, or was it an act of terrorism for the sake of Terrorism? For all I know, it was mercenaries acting in behalf of the Bush administration to deflect attention from the 'prisoner abuse' scandal.

Larry K is a good example of dualists who believe that the world can be neatly divided into little packages of good and evil. I guess that depends on which side you're on.

This threat is beginning to sound like a civil war. Is that what's really happening in America? I hope Guest and others are prepared to do battle with the Giant and move from words to action.


Lepus Rex - Thanks for being so "RIGHT ON" !!!!!

Gusest Gerhard - "...'Justice is specific and has a limit; revenge can be specific, but it is unlimited."

Thank you for that clarification.



Kim C - Thanks for starting this thread but you have to admit, doctors and teachers aren't in it for the money. Businessman are.

Thats right Mick, "...Better to figure out what the people that we supposedly went in to help, and then figure out how to give it to them."

As far as finding the guy who actually did the beheading; very doubtful. He's probably dead by now.

The propaganda is so heavy that you definitely need to be able to read between the lines. I wonder when the American public will tire of being manipulated and controlled? I'm sure that many good, Germans were caught in a similar web of deceit by their leader.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 May 04 - 11:28 PM

Fact: the Iraqis have the right to fight if they wish.

Fact: The US troops and civilian employess has the right to protect themselves, even if it means killing Irqis.

Fact: The actions of the prison guards seem to be against the UCMJ, and are being prosecuted.

Fact: Few, if any of those critisizing the US for actions in Iraq have made any comment about the actions of anti-US parties.

Liberals, in general, show that they hold the other parties to a lower standard than the US- This is as racist and unreasonable as anything I can think of. They are so inferior that they cannot be held to the standards of humanity that the US is expected to observe.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Bobert
Date: 12 May 04 - 11:05 PM

Mick,

I'm reading your post and going, "yeah, yeah, okay, yeah" and then the "savage" remark makes me stop my "yeah, yeah, okay, yeah"'s as you seemed to jump time...

"Savage" is not in short supply in Iraq, Mickster... Ask any of the Iraqis who have suffered it from the US led forces or their survivers...

Other than that, we're not oo far apart... Hey, these folks have been invaded and occupied and are not able to stand up to the might of the US military but they are certainly going to fight with what they have...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:42 PM

Mick, the prison guards were clearly wrong to do what they did. It was unnecessary.

But now that suspicion is being planted that the video may be a fake, I reckon it's a moot point.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 May 04 - 07:26 PM

There is something very peculiar about the beheading video that was pointed out in the Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4082178,00.html

>The video is of poor quality, and its time stamp seems to show an 11-hour lapse between when the >assailants finish their statement and push Berg down, to when they behead him. That suggests a >delay between those two portions of tape posted on the Web site.


These time stamp differences are evident in the photos at one of the sites listed above--

This is one of a number of strange things about this horrifying incident--

Other things include:

the family's claim that he was held by the Americans, the American claim that he was not--

the court action that seemed to result in his release

the peculiar fact that he went to Iraq without a job offer, came home, and went back to Iraq again, still without a job--

The confusing claims about his father's political views(some say he is a peace activist, some seem to think he was an avid Bush supporter)

The odd fact that initial reports on the discovery of his body in Baghdad say that his body showed signs of trauma, but don't mention that it was headless--

The serendipitous appearance of the body and the video at a time when the Bush people needed it most--

Minor things, admittedly, but vivid images have a way of taking on a life of their own, and obscuring the events that surround them--they represent at best, only a few moments of a larger flow of events, and at, worst, are contrived to convey a message--

. We watch, and wonder, but are completely helpless to do anything--not surprising that folks are a bit touchy--

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 May 04 - 06:31 PM

I wonder why there was no hue and cry over profiteering when the French and Russians were doing it? Oh, that's right.... they had an agreement with Saddam Hussein.

To suggest that this young man was doing something wrong, or deserved a death such as he faced, because he was profiteering is despicable.

For the right wingers to act as though these people are barbaric to do such a thing ignores an important fact. How many of these people had children killed during the bombing? How many of these people were happy we took down Saddam Hussein, in fact expressed their gratitude, and are now fighting us. And why? Because we only want to liberate them if they will set up a government we approve of. If we really gave a shit about democracy, it wouldn't matter if the Iraqui people elected a Moslem government. Aren't the people opposed to this the same ones that want to restore Christian values to America? What the hell is the difference? Real liberation would have sought to build a coalition of the people, and their chosen leaders, and them helped them to restore the infrastructure.

This death had nothing to do with the sickening abuse, torture and killing of the Iraqui prisoners. These terrorists would have killed this person and any other target of opportunity, even if the abuses had never happened.

The right wingers that act as though this is a whole different act. They say that all we did was embarass them, and they react by doing this horrible thing. Kim, Doug, have you forgotten about the prison guard/MP's that fired live ammunition into the prison yard?

Confusing post? Yep. Meant it to be. It is meant to demonstrate that all the horseshit I am hearing from folks that think they have all the answers, is just that. What has happened cannot be taken back. All that can be done is to take a very careful measure of where we are, and try to go from there. Clearly the USA cannot just leave, but we had better quit trying to turn this place into Turkey, or western style democracy. Better to figure out what the people that we supposedly went in to help, and then figure out how to give it to them.

Oh .... yeah .... and we need to hunt down this savage who cut off Berg's head. I don't care who thinks what of me when I say that with any luck he will die slowly and painfully. And when he gets to the other side and finds out what Allah's real view of his actions are, he will suffer for an eternity.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 12 May 04 - 06:12 PM

"First, I don't think he is on one, (a hook, that is..) and if he is, he will get off it all by himself. To even suggest such a thing is an insult to the young man's family."

I think you should let the young man's family decide that for themselves, DougR.
I think they have as well; being, as they are, in the process of suing the US Government.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:32 PM

Doug - of course I wasn't accusing you of grabbing on to this crime to get Bush off the hook. I do however think that this is one of the results it can be expected to have, though the expression I'd use would be "takemnthenheat off him." The front pages which have had pictures of atrocities or alleged atrocities by the USA and UK are today dominated by pictures of this killing.

And I am sure that there would be spin-doctors working for the US Government and military who saw this as a kind of "good news" for them. That's how such people think when they are in a crises. Rememeber the British government official whose reaction to 911 was "this is a good day to bury bad news" - though in fcat she was foolish enough to put this thought on record, and it destroyed her career.

And I'm reminded of the recorded fact that when Churchill heard about Peral Harbour his reaction was a sort of grim rejoicing: "No American will think it wrong of me if I proclaim that to have the United States at our side was to me the greatest joy."

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:10 PM

If you all can't carry on a civil discussion without a bunch of mean-spirited swearing and name-calling and ad hominem BS, go start your own thread, and I'll ask for this one to be closed.

Doctors make a living from other people's misfortunes. Does that make them profiteers? What about lawyers? Insurance companies?

Not everyone who ventures into a war zone is motivated by greed. Some people really do want to help, and assuming that "these people are there to leech profits out of a racist, illegal war" undermines the good work we'll never hear about in the news, because it doesn't make good ratings. We don't care to hear about the doctors volunteering their time to care for the wounded, or about the Nashville mother who teaches Iraqi kids how to read.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DougR
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:02 PM

GUEST: No, you do not speak for EVERYBODY on this forum, and no, not EVERYBODY agrees that replacing Saddam was wrong.

SueB: I was referring to Al Queda when I described them as sub-human, and nothing I have read on this thread has disabused me of that belief.

KimC: thank you for posting this thread. It needed to be done. The only person I can think of that could have posted it with equal grace, less malice, and studied reason is Rick Fielding, and unfortunately, he is not here to do that anymore.

And McGrath: it never entered my mind that this event might get "Bush off the hook." First, I don't think he is on one, and if he is, he will get off it all by himself. To even suggest such a thing is an insult to the young man's family. That's not like you Kevin.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Amos
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:00 PM

If the problem with liberals is that they misunderstand true evil, possibly the problem with reactionary neocons is their distorted and often self-serving concept of true good.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 12 May 04 - 03:51 PM

Doug- When a liberal has lost an argument and doesn't have an intelligent comment or response, they generally resort to calling you a nazi.   Congratulations- it means you have won the argument.   It speaks far more to them than it does to you.    I get very insulted when someone throws out the nazi tag because the person obviously does not have a clue about history.   If they had a thimble of intelligence they wouldn't use the reference.   3 million jews died in Poland alone from nazi's- virtually eliminating the entire population.   And you called some terrorists "subhuman"   Yeah- I see the similarities.

Sean Hannity states that liberals don't understand true evil.   All you have to do is read this forum to prove he is right.    Terrorists are trying to kill us and we believe it is because of George Bush.   (of course that doesn't explain the 9 attacks on America before Bush was elected) It is interesting to note that Al Queda has killed more Muslims than they have killed westeners.    (Look at the Saudi Arabia bombings last week)   It is also intersting to note that the world comdemmed USA for the prison abuse, but aside from England and Austrailia is dead silent on the beheading.    Where is the Muslim outrage over beheading.   We are constantly told that it is a religion of peace.    Where is the Martin Luther King of the muslim community?   Probably beheaded.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 May 04 - 03:44 PM

I had considered to quote the 'subhuman' Texans, Lepus, but you didn't really sound serious there.

BTW, no one in this thread has called a race subhuman.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Gerard
Date: 12 May 04 - 03:36 PM

There is a difference between justice and revenge. Justice is specific and has a limit; revenge can be specific, but it is unlimited.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 12 May 04 - 03:28 PM

brucie: What would training firefighters down the block have to do with war profiteering? We're talking about Berg, who was in Iraq to make money off the war. Therefore, a profiteer.

DonMeixner: "Americans working to rebuild Iraq" is a lovely image, but the truth is these people are there to leech profits out of a racist, illegal war. Which makes them bad people, and, yes, profiteers. Like I said, my opinion. I guess we'll just have to "agree to disagree," or whatever.

And nice try, Wolfgang. But as you know, in that instance I used "subhuman" as a personal insult, not a label for a race of people. Which is a bit of a difference. If you wanted to quote me, you should have quoted me calling Texans "inbred, subhuman, pistol-totin' cattle-fuckers" back in 2001. Which, even though it was written in a joking manner, would've been much more effective. :)

Martin Gibson: Boo fucking Holocaust hoo. Don't tarnish your murdered relatives' memories by using them to score points in an argument. That's just tacky. I really couldn't care less which false god you worship, and that has nothing to do with your being a racist. Just in this thread, you've called Arabs "maggot(s)," "dirtbags," and implied that they smell bad. Hmm. So, Arabs are filthy vermin? Like rats? Isn't that what the Nazis said about your family? What makes your racism different? You're just targeting a different bunch of Semites.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 12 May 04 - 02:14 PM

GUEST, you are taking me out of context. What I mean is, when such a crime against humanity has been committed, does it really matter where the victim or the perpetrator is from? I'm not sure it does. I don't think the Red Cross thinks it matters, or Amnesty International.

Tell me why YOU think it matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:55 PM

"And furthermore, does it really matter what country the terrorists are from?"

Yes it does. A great deal. If you don't understand WHY it matters a great deal, then you aren't paying very close attention.

"Show me a batch of politicians that ISN'T a bunch of liars."

It isn't just about the lying. It is also about who is to blame for this unholy mess in Iraq. It is about who is to blame for absolutely no oversight of the military (that is Congress' job, BTW) since 9/11. It is about who ordered that military intelligence, et al directly violate the Geneva Conventions in order to torture the confessions the Bush administration wanted from Iraqis to "prove" this US sponsored and sanctioned state terrorism is "morally" right, when it is clear it is ethically very, very wrong.

Right wing morals be damned, I say, be they the morality of right wing Republicans in the US, or the morality of the right wing Islamic terrorists in the Middle East.

End the carnage. Now.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:54 PM

It's hard to stay balanced on this.

Strolling Johnny, you start off rightly thanking El Greko for his "calm and well reasoned piece", and quote right - but then before your post is ended you are slipping into "...go back to their Oases and spend the rest of their days racing camels to entertain themselves". And that is essentially racist language, even when not used by a racist, as I am sure is the case here.

In wars people do horrible things. Inevitably there's a tendency to concentrate on the horrible things that are done by one side, and to comfort ourselves that these are intrinsically worse than the things done by the other. But the closer you get to it, the harder it is to be sure about that, and it doesn't really matter that much.

What we should never under any circumstances do is use the crimes and atrocities committed by one side as a justification for the crimes and atrocities of the other - in the way that the butchers of that poor young man have tried to do, and in the way that some of the posts in this thread, and the comment pieces in some of the media have attempted to do, in reverse.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:42 PM

Well said, Johnny.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:38 PM

I believe beheading is currently the standard foem of capital punishment in quite a few countries, is it not? And when did the French stop using the guillotine?- some time in the 20th C., no? not all that long ago.

As several others have said, an execution- by gas, by electrocution, by hanging, by beheading by firing squad- is an execution. No diffenence, worth the name.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:10 PM

El Greko - your first post is a masterpiece, I applaud you for your calm and well reasoned piece which stands out like a beacon against some of the OTT stuff here.

I'm desperately saddened but not at all surprised by this killing, and by the manner of execution. I feel for him, his terror and suffering, and for the suffering of his family and friends. And I feel the same for all human beings who have suffered as a result of the actions of both the terrorists and those who claim to wage war on terror. A death is a death and it hurts the same, irrespective of which side of the fence you're sitting on.

The fact is that the killing of this young man, its method and recording, was done deliberately to create the kind of internal conflict amongst 'Westerners' that we've seen in this thread. Whatever the aims of Al Q'aeda are (and I for one am not absolutely clear on that because they seem to change as time goes by) they know that they cannot bring them about by straightforward force of arms, so they commit their atrocities in order to foment unrest within the nations they perceive as their enemies. The strategy is already working well - they sucked the US and UK into two vastly expensive, unjustified and unwinnable 'wars', they changed the course of the Spanish election and brought the Goverment down, and they may very soon bring about the downfall of the US President and the UK Government. Not bad for a bunch of 'Subhumans' (not my word BTW - I only use it to indicate a sense of irony).

We ('The West', whatever you like to call it) have chosen the wrong path at every turn. We gave the terrorists (Al Q'aeda, whoever) and their associate organisations the excuse for the USS Cole, 9/11, Madrid et al, and we're still doing it.

And what next? What if the Coalition forces (as is being demanded by many, including a significant number of Mudcatters) withdraw from Afghanistan and Iraq, and persuade Israel to get the hell out of Palestine? Does anyone really believe that Osama and his band of Good Ole Buddies will pack it in, go back to their Oases and spend the rest of their days racing camels to entertain themselves, or that Iraq will miraculously be renewed as a peaceful Garden of Eden for its dreadfully ill-treated people? Like the jungle tiger who raids the village, 'they' have tasted human flesh and they like it - they won't go away, they'll just find another set of 'aims', another 'cause', more 'demands' to justify their atrocities.

We've dug a big hole, filled it with our own excrement, and dived head-first into it. God help us, someone has to. IMOH.

Johnny (no smiley face)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:03 PM

Show me a batch of politicians that ISN'T a bunch of liars.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Bobert
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:57 PM

And just a reminder that the beheading wouldn't have taken place if George Bush had told Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle the same thing that Bill Clinton told them... "Get out of my office..."...

This is a war of *choice*. No two ways about it so Bush and his boys are very much responsible for what we are seeing... They have lied to use about their motives for their war of choice. They have changed their story over and over to cover their real motives: oil and ratings. Well, more and more folks are figuring it out. The Repubs meanwhile are busy getting as many black voters disenfranshised in hopes of stealing yet another election...

I may not like Kerry enough to vote for him but he was right on the money in his candid remark about this current batch being a bunch of liars...

.... and I'd throw in, accomplices to lots and lots of murders, including that of Nicolas Berg...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:45 PM

As I read through this whole thread, Don Meixner and DougR make the most sense and I agree with them.

The terrorists who did this are our worst enemy.

Chanting and praising Allah while performing this act cannot be made sensible for any reason. Blaming Bush will never stop their hate for us. It never did and it never will.

And Lupus Rex, you have a lot of fucking nerve calling a Jew who had relatives in concentration camps Hitler. Go fuck your left nostril through your right one, douchebag.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:25 PM

Kim C, sorry if I jumped to conclusions.

DougR, I can't agree that this was "subhuman" or even as someone else said "medieval." Not because I have a higher opinion than you of the actions, but because I prefer to be honest about human behavior. In ancient times, the Romans crucified thousands. In medieval times, the inquisition committed horrible acts of execution on essentially innocent people, and so did practically every secular authority. In eighteenth century France, supposedly the height of culture of civilization, beheading was a common form of execution, and many of the victims had committed no crimes. In nineteenth century England, being "pressed into service" (ie kidnapped) meant that you had gone from life in a parliamentary monarchy to an absolute autocracy, where your human rights could be taken away on a whim. If you rebelled, you could be "flogged round the fleet," beaten to death with a cat-o-nine-tails while seized to the gratings of a succession of different vessels (similar to what the Romans did to Jesus). Black men have been lynched by southern whites within living memory. Don't forget slavery, the holocaust, "ethnic cleansing."

Human life, in most places and most times, has been violent. Our thin veneer of a hundred years or so of politeness in Western Europe and America falls away pretty quickly in wartime; witness the atrocities admitted by American soldiers in Viet Nam, and the atrocities carried out by the VC as well.

This beheading was pretty violent, no question. It was immoral, profane, disgusting.

Unfortunately, it was also a hundred percent human.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:15 PM

Is Al-Qaeda not an opposing force? And furthermore, does it really matter what country the terrorists are from? This particular group of people kidnapped a man and took his head off, and meant for everyone to see it. It is a vile crime regardless of anyone's nationality.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: sledge
Date: 12 May 04 - 11:50 AM

Cold and calous yes, Evil quite possibly but Subhuman, not so in my books, start using that kind thinking and how long till the "einsatsgruppen" start sifting out the undesirables and where do they stop.

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 04 - 11:28 AM

Or the video of our troops firing live rounds of ammunition (not plastic bullets) into crowds of rioting prisoners, most of whom fell in the category of the 90% of prisoners who were wrongfully detained?

After all, a bunch of forceably isolated, humiliated Iraqi men with a lot of bottled up anger, armed with rocks and stones, and contained in small space can be quite dangerous. But words like bloodbath do come to mind. Remember Attica and Nelson Rockefeller's decision to bomb the prison to quell the rioting? The MOVE rowhouses in Philly? The firestorm at Waco?

If we treat Americans under our media microscopes like that, what atrocities do you suppose we are capable of when no one is looking, no one seems to be in charge, and the pressure from your fellow troops to conform to the group committing atrocities can easily be understood to be stand with us or you are a dead man/woman?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 04 - 11:18 AM

It's worth remembering that, in at least one case, the torture ended in the death of the prisoner. In the words of Sergeant Frederick: "They stressed him out so bad that the man passed away."

Anybody want to watch the video of that? Death by slow torture at the hands of the "liberators"?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: SueB
Date: 12 May 04 - 11:06 AM

As far as we know, Kim, it wasn't the Iraqi "opposing forces" who are responsible for the beheading. It looks like it might have been Al-Qaeda sponsored terrorists, and they may not even have been Iraqis at all.

I think it's an important question: WHO is the enemy?

Is it Martin Gibson's "maggot Arabs"?
Is it DougR's "subhuman" whoever the hell he's talking about?
Is it Don's "universal THEM" whoever them is, as long as it's not US?

Does anyone remember the old POGO cartoon, that says,
"I has found the enemy, and they is us."


PS - Don - I have reread your posts, and I realize that you have said some things I agree with - I was distracted by your pithy insults to people I thought were asking some interesting and necessary questions. I don't know if you realize this, but an insult is no less an insult when the deliverer is privately laughing.
Example: You're a doo-doo head! Hahaha! Just kidding! See what I mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:58 AM

It's worth remembering that, in at least one case, the torture ended in the death of the prisoner. In the words of Sergeant Frederick: "They stressed him out so bad that the man passed away."

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:54 AM

" think Doug, Kim, and a number of our frequent posters to this and other threads have been around this forum long enough that we shoudl all know what they mean."

That assumption is a big mistake.

As to whether not providing links to the photos is censorship--hey people, there is a difference between intentionally ignoring, benignly neglecting, and actively censoring. I do hope everyone here realizes anyone with decent internet access can view anything currently making the rounds online.

Some of the photographs and videos are authentic and did need to be viewed by Americans (like the prisoner abuse photos released thus far). Some photos/videos don't need to be viewed but will be because of the pornographic titillation factors involved (like the beheading photos and videos). Finally, some just needs to be ignored, like the doctored military porn/rape photos linked to in another thread, that is nothing more than recycled porn updated with the "Iraqi prisoner abuse" factor to extend it's internet shelf life.

We need to be vigilant, discerning and discriminating about what is valid, and what is sensationalized right now, because we are being bombarded with images: some are propaganda, some are legitimate news, and some are opportunistic sadism and pornography.

The prison abuse scandal is one we needed to learn about to shine the light into the darkness of what too many of our troops were becoming in Iraq, to prevent the situation from worsening, and hopefully prevent future atrocities. Most Americans would have ignored the stories about prisoner abuse if not for the photographic evidence, IMO. So it was essential that they be released, and that we look critically at them.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: barrygeo
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:54 AM

Amazing how much terror, fear, hatred and in-fighting you can create with a kitchen knife a video camera and the internet. You don't need a laser guided multi-million dollar high tech bomb.
Thats why the terrorists (and thats not the guy with the knife, he's just a conveniant psycho - its the guy who thought up the idea of the video) wont be defeated even by the might of the US forces.
Only by addressing the injustice (real or perceived) can a stop be put to this horror. I see no evidence that the developed world wants to enter into dialogue on the regional problems in the middle east.
Until some real efforts are made at reconciliation in the region be prepared for more terror.
It took us 30 years to figure it out in Ireland. Similar story in South Africa and the Basque region. The Russians had to pull out of Afghanistan with their tails between their legs.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:51 AM

DougR, I don't equate the soldiers who "abused" prisoners in that prison with the people who cut off this man's head.

I equate a government (and the nation that supports it) who kill innocent women, children, and old men for money (oil).

If they're subhuman, then so are we.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:20 AM

I understand that it happened; I don't need to look at pictures of it happening. Some may feel that looking at the pictures is the only way to truly understand the gravity of the act. I respect that, but I also suspect that there are a good number of people who will look at the pictures for a ghoulish thrill. I'll pass.

I think Doug, Kim, and a number of our frequent posters to this and other threads have been around this forum long enough that we shoudl all know what they mean. I can confidently say that Doug does not view all Iraqis, or all people from the middle east, as sub-human, but that characterization of the perpetrators of this horrible act was intended to communicate his revulsion at what they have done. Responding to his post by calling him a Nazi and other such insults is really vile.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Bobert
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:20 AM

Kim:

The ratio is based on reports of over 10,000 Iriqi deaths... These numbers have been reported by Pacifica, I've heard the numbers on C-Span. You read the newspapers and hear 58 Iraqis killed, 2 marines also killed. Over 30,000 bombs were dropped on Iraq during th invasion alone. This was reported in the Wsahington Post several months ago. Throw in the millions of rounds of tank, mortar, artillery and small arms rounds being fired at Iraqis in the last year, the 10,000 figure is probably way, way low. I mean, if I were the commander in chief and after all that fire power had been unleashed in a country the size of Oklahoma and my top general came to me me and said, "Well, Mr President, we got about 10,000 of them Iraqis.", we''.... I would have fired him. With that kind of money you could have privatized the invasion to the Mafia and have a much greated Iraqi body count.

So when you take the 700 Americans killed, the 20 to 1 figure is probably very conservative...There have also been reports from some of the same sources that I mentioned above that the civilian casualties are running at 90%... Now, as terrible 9/11 was to America, try to comprehend how the Iraqis really feel about the US invasion... And please spare us all the bogus polls that were taken. They are to any thinking person absolutely rediculous...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: ToulouseCruise
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:06 AM

I was reading this quickly and although I am not going to enter into the debate, I will advise that there are some photos taken from that video available on a nationally known website. If you would like the link to that, you may email me at [e-mail].

I am choosing not to put the link here due to its graphic content by my own choice. I am probably going to start a debate in itself whether I should be a) promoting these graphic photos; or b) censoring information by not showing the link directly here. My intention is not to start a debate or anything, merely to provide a link for those who really want it -- meaning you have to email me instead of just hitting a blue clicky.

Brian.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Java
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:00 AM

" It is no more barbarous than execution by firing squad"

With a kitchen knife?

This wasn't one blow with a razor sharp sword. Watch the video, vomit, then reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:43 AM

Sue, settle down. By "Their People" I meant specifically the opposing force fighting against us, not all Iraqis, and not everyone in the Middle East. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

The whole situation reminds me of the Indian Wars in the US in the 19th century. The regular Army was faced with an opposing force of a different culture & a different mindset - a force that wasn't going to fight back on the US Army's terms. Likewise the terrorists are of a different culture, and they don't fight on our terms either.

The local news interviewed some Iraqi immigrants who agreed that the prison scandal was indeed a tragedy, however they were quick to remind the reporter that the people being tortured & abused were the same people who tortured & abused innocent citizens. Now, I don't bring that up to condone any of the atrocities that have happened at the hands of our own soldiers. I bring it up to illustrate my previous point that many people in their culture have a specific viewpoint about these things that may be very different from ours.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:39 AM

Hi Again Sue,

That us and them I speak of are the universal us and them. Not a specific us and them. I have never stated, thought, implied or left open to interpretation that I felt tall of the people in the middle east are terrorists or enemies. I think you read my comments and heard what your particular feelings wanted to hear. I am really a nice guy. Honest.

Hey Bobert, It was childish wasn't it...and I chuckled as I wrote it.

And I too am tired of this thread. It is serving no purpose and making us talk through emotion rather than reason.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: MarkS
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:39 AM

Don
Horst Wessel was a German guy who was elevated to the status for folk hero by the Nazis. I dont remember exactly what he did, but the "Horst Wessel Song" became a Nazi anthem.
I am not sure why the story is relevant to this discussion except that maybe the poster thinks Berg might be an equvalent.
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Amos
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:37 AM

Beheading was once -- in some cultures -- a much more common treatment. It is no more barbarous than execution by firing squad, or a single bullet in the back of a head, or any of the other wantonly cruel solutions people have resorted to over centuries.
I concur with Doug that the desperate murder of an innocent bystander as a dramatic political gesture, as this seems to be, is below the norm of human conduct and is barbaric. The torture of Iraqi prisioners is also barbaric -- the same insane rage to a lesser degree. To put things in perspective the entire assault against Iraq, which may have had more to do with Elf-Acquitaine oil contracts with Saddam Hussein than with freedom, has been barbaric and brought about the deaths of hundreds ands hundreds of non-combatant men, women and children. One beheading may be more dramatic, but in the overall scale it is a small gesture, if an insane one. The blood on Bush's hands outweighs it a thousand times.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:44 AM

We must take into account, particularly in the wake of the Iraqi prisoner scandal, how dehumanized people become by the violence and injustices of having a war waged on them.

I'm not saying they can't help it. I am saying that war dehumanizes everyone it touches, and a large part of the problem with American-led warfare, is that it never directly touches us. And just look at what we became in the wake of 9/11, when the violence did directly touch us: what we are now. A society with curtailed civil liberties, our government spying on all of us, and aggressive, monstrous bullies to the rest of the world, whom our government and too many of our citizens hold in contempt.

We are isolated, mean, angry, and bitter, and we are taking it out on the world, innocent or guilty.

That isn't a very admirable place for the richest, most powerful democratic society the world has ever known, now is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: SueB
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:39 AM

I know what "our people" is supposed to mean, but what is "their people" supposed to mean? Are you referring specifically to the unidentified men in the video, or the Iraqi people, or who? Are all people from the Middle East supposed to be terrorists now?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:39 AM

I'm with Rapaire.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:35 AM

"Perhaps we could discuss this like adults?"

I absolutely agree with you there Kim - except that "like adults" tends in practice to typically mean being bloody-minded and aggressive and hypocritcal, so we are discussing it like adults already.

So perhaps we could instead try and discuss it like level-headed and rational human beings, recognising that just because we disagree with each other, slanging each other off is not helpful. (Not even when in a fit of anger one of us has said something exceptionally stupid.)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:07 AM

"Bottom line, we're killin' 20 Iraqis, most of them civilians, fir every US troop killed..." Bobert - please share with us where you got this statistic.

Now, everybody, settle down. I didn't start this thread for all of you to start name-calling and finger-pointing. I started it because it was breaking news; and as we have been discussing the wrongs of our people against their people, I thought equal time should be accorded to the wrongs of their people against our people.

Perhaps we could discuss this like adults?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Bobert
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:06 AM

"We are facing an enemy like we have never known", Dougie?

That could have also come from the mouth of the average Iraqi man-on-the-street... You're only looking at whaqt is going down from your perspective. That's why wars happen in the first place. And I might add that that is why most wars are lost... When we loose the ability to at least make an effort to see things the ways others do, then we really loose the strength and wisdom to effect the changes that can bring folks into our perspective.

Which leads me to DonM... Sure, I fully understand where you are coming from and, like you, can walk away from a debate... I thought the "bite me" response was a tad childish on yer part but, what the hey, also gave me a chuckle... And as fir being a musican, I purhased my D-18 *new* in 1968 and have the certificate from Martin in my safety deposit box.... I had been playin' folk music for several years when I made that *biggie* purchase...

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 May 04 - 07:53 AM

101% with you, GUEST.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 04 - 07:43 AM

I refuse to create hierarchies of best death/worst death. I see all these needless deaths as horrific, whether the death is the televised execution of an American civilian, or the silent, hidden death of an Iraqi child bleeding to death from schrapnel injuries caused by American bombings.

What we are seeing over and over here, are people over-valuing the lives of Americans and under-valuing the lives of the Iraqis.

Which is probably the most horrific aspect of this tragic war. We all become less human as a result of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 May 04 - 07:37 AM

Greg F, please read my post that followed Doug's and please don't add to the sharp tones of this thread. Let's pipe down, is what I was saying. Can we do that?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 May 04 - 07:20 AM

NOW you're talkin' Dougie! Untermenschen! I knew you had it in you. Lets get 'em all rounded up into extermination camps;
then we can get you a job over there pouring Zyklon-B. Or would you rather tend one of the crematoria?


Don: Put on Paxton's Willing Conscript & listen to it a couple of times thru.


Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 06:53 AM

The paradoxical thing is that this was the first bit of "good" news for the Bush camp in weeks. It takes the torture stuff off the front pages (in the places where it ever was actually on the front pages).

It even provides a kind of justification, or at least mitigation, of that kind of thing - "They are subhuman, and in my opinion deserve no special consideration if captured"; "How in the hell can you folks equate the actions of the young American soldiers who mistreated Iraqi prisoners with the bastards that summarily cut the head off of an innocent young man before a television camera?"

I doubt if the people who murdered this young man had any conscious intetion of throwing Bush a lifeline - I think it's more likely that they wanted to bring about retaliations which would inevitably hit the wrong people, and increase the level of hatred against the occupiers - but that is precisely what they have done. And I am sure that, at any any higher levels of Al Qaeda planning and leadership, they will be very happy about this aspect, sincs Bush is surely their prime weapon in achieving their long-term goals.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 May 04 - 05:53 AM

Agree, GUEST, but I don't think anyone equated, or indeed compared the two. Nor should they. They are both abhorrent, full stop.

There is no scale for "Thou shalt not...".

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 04 - 05:47 AM

We are all agreed that the Americans should never have been in Iraq, but I don't accept that killing Iraqi civilians is morally equivalent to beheading. This sounds neat on the surface, but one occurs in the heat of battle, and is regretted (if only in a cynical way because of the bad publicity) and the other is a deliberate, concious, cold-blooded act. One is downplayed and covered up if at all possible, showing suitable shame, guilt and remorse; the other is proudly boasted of, and recorded on a video - a medieval state of mind recorded on modern technology. Islam, anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:41 AM

About a month ago we had a thread about euphemisms.

Many agreed that the government(s) often use euphemisms (collateral damage etc.) instead of calling it what it is.

The same frame of mind that leads people in governments to use euphemisms can be studied here in some of the posts. 'Unfortunate' for this death qualifies as a euphemism of the worst kind. Don't complain when you see in others what you are not willing to avoid yourself.

No person should ever be called 'subhuman' under any circumstances, but a particular act or treatment may be called 'subhuman'. Don makes this difference.

Lepus, I'm sure you have no difficulties explaining yourself that typing Heil Hitler, dude....You're not helping your cause with creepy Nazi-like statements such as this in the same post is no contradiction. But as someone who has called another Mudcatter subhuman fucktard you should have a bit more tolerance and understanding for others using this expression than you have shown here lest we get the impression that you have different standards who may be called subhuman.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:02 AM

Only the misinformation

Great post, El Greko

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 May 04 - 03:52 AM

Sad, very sad, the way we turn on each other over these events. If we folkies, supposedly more open-minded and better educated than others, cannot keep our calm, what chance does the wider community have?

Can we agree on a few salient points and stop asking each other to "bite us" or calling each other names in our frustration? I offer:

1. Mr Berg's act in going to Iraq at all, whatever his motives, was foolish. He may or may not have been a foolish man, but this time he got it wrong.
2. Nevertheless, he did not deserve to die for this foolish act. Much less, to die in such a way.
3. The documented maltreatment/abuse/torture of Iraqi prisoners by coalition soldiers and their contractors is despicable, and the arm of justice needs to reach all of those who bear responsibility up and down the chain. Whoever they are. I am willing to wait for the trials and inquiries to bring their verdict, now that it is in the public domain. And I am worried that there may be more such acts that have not seen the light of day yet.
4. While we do not condone the above two sets of acts, neither are we surprised that they are raising the stakes by escalating the violence perpetrated (and perceived) and we are likely to see much worse to come down the line.

Now, those four points alone should find us all in agreement, I hope. If not, I would really worry. I venture to offer a few more:

5. The Iraqi prisoners (those that have been abused/tortured and others) are either not involved in perpetrating Saddam's excesses and horrors, and even if some of them have been involved in such, their involvement is not yet proven - otherwise they would be under trial/sentence.
6. The coalition was not invited to liberate Iraq. The openly stated motives for attacking Iraq at all (WMDs, non-compliance with the 17 UN resolutions) have been de facto proven now to be false (WMDs - listen to the inspectors, not to me) or insufficient by themselves (the UN did not support an attack on Iraq on the basis of the non-compliance alone). The Al Qaeda links of the Iraqi state have not been proven either, though Al Qaeda undoubtedly operates in Iraq.
7. There is no other way to see our armies there than as occupying forces, therefore. Some may believe that this is till for the good - others doubt our intentions. The doubters include many of the Iraqi people.
8. Most "hearts and minds" efforts in Iraq have failed so far, as a result of 7 above. And actions like 3 above will certainly make things worse
9. The Iraqi people at large are not subhumans, or animals. They may harbour hatred for the occupying forces, but that is a normal reaction by any people who find themselves in their position.
10. There are those with agendas of their own who try to foment unrest and hatred against the US and UK. Fact. Also unsurprising.
11. There are those with agendas of their own who try to foment hatred against the Iraqis as a nation/people. Fact. Also unsurprising.
12. Religion is often used as a weapon/reason/excuse in such circumstances. So some of those in 10 above blame the "Christian infidels", and some of those in 11 above blame the Muslims. But the causes of all of the above are in fact nothing to do with religion. This is just about fanatics trying to capitalise on the situation.
13. None of the above should be happening.

Now, what does that leave to argue about?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 May 04 - 02:40 AM

"Will you EVER accept the fact that we are facing an enemy unlike any we have ever known? "

But see, DougR, that statement's just not true. These people are human beings, with all the contradictions that implies. Did you ever hear the phrase: "But for the grace of God, there go I"? The fact that you were born on this continent and in this era does not make you - or me - better, it only exposed you to a different culture.

Born there you, in all likelihood, would be shouting alongside your neighbors against the evils of America. If you were younger you might be out there with the hood on your head; if you were there and the age you are today, your heart would probably be sickened unto death at the abuses on both sides. But in either case you would probably feel that the Americans had brought it on themselves. We have no business there. The Iraqis did not commit the 9/11 crimes, nor did the Iraqi people commit the crimes of Saddam Hussein. They suffered under his rule- and now they are suffering under our rule. The difference is that we have no business there.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:54 AM

"This act illustrates the kind of enemy we are facing. They are subhuman, and in my opinion deserve no special consideration if captured." DougR

Are all the prisoners in Abu Ghraib this kind of subhuman enemy? All the Iraqis? When you see one how can you tell if he's subhuman or just in the wrong place at the wrong time? Assuming he's not decapitating someone at the time.

Labeling people "subhuman" and treating them that way is one of the roads to hell.

We should treat all people -even villians - decently, not only for their sake but for our sake.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:30 AM

I still wonder why the Americans, once they were through with Mr. Berg, did not insure his safe departure.

In this unlawful war, I wouldn't put anything past the Bush administration. Why did they hold Berg for so long? Did they plant suspicion among the Iraqi population regarding the reasons for Mr. Berg's detention? The answer to these questions we will never know but I do know that I do not believe one word of anything the Bush Administration has to say.

Could it be that this is just another evil way to shift the focus away from the abuse of the Iraqi prisoners? Now, instead of being on the defensive, America is on the offensive again. Bush's war on terrorism is creating terror throughout the world. Bush is evil! For all we know, the unidentified murderers are just some of Bush's mercenaries or more of his "contractors". I would put nothing past these treacherous, war mongers.

My heart aches for the Berg family.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DougR
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:20 AM

My conclusion: many of you folks are just plain sick! You berate me because I referred to the killers of that young man as subhuman? Will you EVER accept the fact that we are facing an enemy unlike any we have ever known? Probably not.

Ebbie: My parents are long dead. Were they alive and had they read your post they would have been sickened by your response. I loved and respected them; they loved and respected me.

How in the hell can you folks equate the actions of the young American soldiers who mistreated Iraqi prisoners with the bastards that summarily cut the head off of an innocent young man before a television camera?

Sick I say. Sick.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: LadyJean
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:35 AM

He was peddling antennae. That's not such a horrible thing to do. I wish somebody had stopped Bush from dragging us into Iraq. I wish American forces had shipped this guy home the minute they caught him.
26 year old males are frequently short on common sense. This guy seems to have been shorter than most.
If his captors had sold him back to the Americans, I would understand.
But they executed a harmless fool. That was a horrible thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:19 AM

Hi SueB

I think I'm more puzzled by the defensiveness comment than I am about being a bigot. You and I have not crossed paths before that I am aware of or you'd know my feelings about the US being in Iraq.

So let me introduce myself to you. I am a 53 year old accessibility designer, silversmith, and musican. I have been a life long democrat and have been active the idea of power through peaceful means since I was 16 or so. I've played mainly traditional music for about 30 years but I love cowboy songs and have a fondness for The Sons of The Pioneers.

I have some great old guitars and a nice new one. (How is your new Martin behaving by the way?) And I will share any song I know with anyone who asks. I'll even print the chords if I have too.

I love a good debate and I'll argue politics till I can't talk. I admire anyone who is passionate about their debate, even Bobert tho' I doubt he believes this. And I can walk away from a debate and still like the person I was debating.

I am unaware of simmering toxic stews or any unrelenting hate for my fellow man. The only intolerance I have is for terrorism of any kind. That which is perpetrated on us by them or that which is done by us to them. And I don't believe I have ever been called an "Ilk" before either.

So, now you know about me, sometime if you like, introduce yourself and say "Hi".

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Mooh
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:05 AM

Well, nobody expects them to turn the other cheek...

Neither side here even pretends to "do unto others" and neither side has yet reached the limits of their potential horror. Why should we be surprised? This war makes my heart very tired.

Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: SueB
Date: 11 May 04 - 11:53 PM

The bigotry and defensiveness shown to us by DougR and DonMeixner are shared by more Americans than I'd like to think about. It's scary to realize that there are people walking around with that kind of toxic stew simmering under the surface, just waiting for a target to spew it onto. I don't know why people around here bend over backward all the time to accomodate the views of people like DougR and his ilk. We go to great lengths to say things like "well, I don't agree with your viewpoint, but I *respect* it." What is there here to respect?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 11 May 04 - 11:24 PM

Garg,

Explain the Horst Wessel thing to me. It isn't a term I'm familiar with.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 11 May 04 - 11:03 PM

Bite me Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 11 May 04 - 10:12 PM

What better choice for a Horst Wessel?

Single - out of work - trying to busk a solo-gig for his attenae company.

Iraqi's don't want him....his parents whine when he is put into protective custody by American Troops....he is released and continues a Quixotic Quest into the hands of the only people who have a use for his poor-sorry-tourist-soul.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Bobert
Date: 11 May 04 - 10:12 PM

No, Don M, since we are the good guys, we never cut folks heads off in public...

Bottom line, we're killin' 20 Iraqis, most of them civilians, fir every US troop killed, but hey, at least we don't have to see the picures of the Iraqi dead....

You do the math, pal...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 04 - 10:12 PM

"And anyone who can honestly say that Berg deserved to die this way for some clouded purpose or to avenge public nudity and unsaved face needs to rethink their own moral culpability to the world at large."

Where did ANYONE in this thread say this man deserved to die?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out this guy put himself in harm's way, now does it? His parents begged him not to go. He had no support in Iraq.

Because his death was horrific doesn't change the fact he shouldn't have been there to begin with, does it?

BTW, we've killed many times more Iraqis than were killed in the 9/11 attacks. When will we have spilled enough blood to sate those of you who believe we are giving the Iraqi "sub-humans" what they never deserved to begin with because, as has been pointed out AGAIN it wasn't the Iraqis, but Saudi terrorists, who were the murderers behind 9/11.

But I guess we just shouldn't confuse some of you with the facts...

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 May 04 - 10:08 PM

Wait. I think 'sub-human' is totally off the point. Beheading for execution these days is more cultural than anything else.

Not too many years ago, Japanese men disemboweled themselves when they perceived themselves as having been dishonored. Was that sub-human? No. The practice to us in the western hemisphere would be totally abhorrent but that is because it has never been part of our culture.

My guess is that to today's generation of Japanese the custom would be considered unacceptable- but the people would be a great deal less shocked if their prime minister disemboweled himself today than we would be if President Bush disemboweled himself over this scandal. Simply because the practice was part of their history.

So. My opinion is that talking and thinking of sub-humanity is a dangerous mindset, indeed. We can do a hell of a lot better than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 11 May 04 - 10:00 PM

Not to nitpick, but yes, animals do behave this way.
It is well documented that killer whales and cats will often "play with their food" causing serious injury and pain to their prey, allowing them to escape and then recapturing them for more "abuse". It has even been seen that they have left corpses of the animal uneaten where we used to believe that they only killed to obtain food.

I pray for Mr. Berg and his family.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Julia
Date: 11 May 04 - 09:41 PM

HELLO!

The perpetrators of this horrendous thing are not Iraquis

The 3000 victims of 9/11 included a large nummber of foreign nationals including people from the middle east

9/11 was caused by Al Quaeda, NOT Saddam Hussein or the Iraqui people

It is precisely the kind of hysterical misinformation rampant on this thread that perpetuates the violence
And has done for millenia

Animals do not behave this way

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 11 May 04 - 09:41 PM

Lepus wrote,

"Americans and other high-paid westerners going to Iraq to "rebuild the infrastructure," drive trucks, etc., (and their employers, of course, whose profiteering has been widely documented) are there to make large amounts of cash. They're selling their services for many times the price that an Iraqi would be paid, and so are making unreasonable profits from the war. And perhaps unlike in Afghanistan, there are more than enough qualified natives. Just my opinion, of course, but I'd say that makes them profiteers."

Lepus I can't figure any other way to read this than any American working to rebuild Iraq is a War Profiteer. Perhaps when you wrote this you left out a word in a critical spot. I do this all the time.

And I'm sorry gang I gotta agree to a large extent with Doug R. about the sub-human status of anyone who would saw off another man's head for the camera no matter what the reason. If they aren't truly Sub-Human they are behaving in a Sub-Human manner. I draw no distinctions here for purposes of race. There is none to draw, the people in Irag are not a different race from people in Connecticut or some one in Wales. There is no justification to claim one race is superior to another, I don't believe it, I never have.

I don't believe there is a religious allowance here for such actions either. When the Spainish Inquisition allowed such brutality it was because mortals claimed it was the word of God. The same is true with the Muslims, this order came from defective perverted deranged minds. Mortal minds, not Allah or God.

It doesn't matter whether Berg was there to make a killing on the lack of cable TV in Iraq or there to help bring power and light to those who needed it. He was a human being who was treated as
inhumanely as were the people in The World Trade Center. The difference is he was ther by choice and knew there were risks. The people at TWC were at work, risking no more than a paper cut.

It wasn't Iraqi shop keepers or plumbers or Iraqi school teachers or their students who killed Berg. It was faceless terrorists who claim no nationality and weren't brave enough to show their faces in the photos that I have seen of this act who treated this man so inhumanly.

And anyone who can honestly say that Berg deserved to die this way for some clouded purpose or to avenge public nudity and unsaved face needs to rethink their own moral culpability to the world at large.

Donald R. Meixner

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 11 May 04 - 09:38 PM

Next question - What did you think the response to those torture pics would be? Did you really think the Bush apology would make a difference? Who do you think we are dealing with anyway? Rule #1 if you are going to war - know your enemy.

The Bush administration has done more to jeopardize the security of North America than all the acts of terrorism combined. He cares nothing for your well-being or the safety of his troops.

Bush is a war monger who has found himself dangling on the edge of insanity. Unfortunately, he will probably take all of us with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 04 - 09:31 PM

From the NY Times article:

"American officials and the slain man's family, in West Chester, Pa., identified the victim as Nicholas Berg, 26, who had gone to Iraq on his own looking for contracting work...

The (intelligence) official also took note of Mr. Berg's decision to go to Iraq without an employer. "It was the wrong place for someone without a support structure to be," the intelligence official said...

Mr. Berg's mother told The A.P. that her son had been in Iraq from December to February seeking work rebuilding the country's infrastructure. After a short stay back home, she said, he returned to Iraq in March. He later told them that he had been jailed by Iraqi officials after being stopped at a checkpoint in the northern city of Mosul before he could return home, as planned, on March 30.

"He was arrested and held without due process," his father, Michael, told The Daily Local News of West Chester. "By the time he got out the whole area was inflamed with violence."

And from ABCnews.com:

"Berg's mother said her son was in Iraq as an independent businessman to help rebuild communication antennas. Berg owned a communications equipment company, Prometheus Methods Tower Service Inc., she said. He was in Baghdad from late December to Feb. 1, then returned to Iraq in March, his family said.

The Bergs last heard from their son April 9, when he told his parents he would come home by way of Jordan. Suzanne Berg said that the family had been trying for weeks to learn where their son was, but that federal officials had not been helpful.

"I went through this with them for weeks," she said. "I basically ended up doing most of the investigating myself."

Michael Berg described himself as fervently anti-war, but said his son disagreed. "He was a Bush supporter," Berg said. "He looked at it as bringing democracy to a country that didn't have it."

Michael Berg lashed out at the U.S. military and Bush administration, saying his son might still be alive if he had been allowed to leave the country on March 30, as he had originally planned.

Nick Berg spoke to his parents on March 24 and said he would return home March 30. But he was detained by Iraqi police at a checkpoint in Mosul on March 24. At some point during his 13-day detention, U.S. officials took custody of him, his father said, and he was not allowed to make phone calls or contact a lawyer.

FBI agents visited Berg's parents in West Chester on March 31 and told the family they were trying to confirm their son's identity. On April 5, the Bergs sued the government in federal court in Philadelphia, contending that their son was being held illegally by the U.S. military.

Berg was released the next day, and he told his parents he had not been mistreated. They did not hear from him after April 9."

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 11 May 04 - 09:29 PM

Nobody deserves to be be-headed but there is alot more to this story.

We do know his expertise was communication. We don't know who he worked for. The U.S. military detained him for nearly two weeks without access to a lawyer. It was after he was released that the be-heading took place.

The big question. What was he really doing there?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 May 04 - 08:59 PM

DougR, I cannot fathom that you got that view from the Fox network so I have to accept that you bought into it on your own. Your poor parents.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 04 - 08:47 PM

The man who was beheaded wasn't working with any American entities, military or private contractors, according to the Pentagon. He was running Iraq on his own, had been arrested and detained by our military prior to his release, and according to the nightly news, his father is now apparently blaming the US military for his death.

Does that mean he deserved to die an horrific death? No. But it does mean none of us is out of line when we say, well what the fuck do you expect will happen when you go Ramboing around in a war zone?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 May 04 - 08:46 PM

It's not surprising to me at all, given what we've been doing to Iraqis. But I'm sad about that. And I expect that some people will use this incident to justify in their minds further abuse to Iraqis. When will we ever learn?

(Expletive deleted),
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 11 May 04 - 08:41 PM

DougR, you're a Nazi. I once thought you were an honorable person. My mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Bobert
Date: 11 May 04 - 08:24 PM

And, Mark, that would have abeen a perfect time to use the good will for America and its people to forge ahead with even better intellegence to that these folks could be brought to justice, just as the Libians had been from the plane they blew up over Locerbe... But instead of turning this into an opportunity to increase the US's ability to gather intellegence it went into the *wacking* mode instead. Good for Bush's ratings. Very poor for fighting terrorism. Now no one trusts anything we do... Good luck in preventing the next 9/11 now...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: MarkS
Date: 11 May 04 - 08:07 PM

It would be worthwhile to remember that Al Qaeda killed over 3000 Americans not too long ago, before we knew much about them, before Afghanistan, and before Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Bobert
Date: 11 May 04 - 08:04 PM

Sub-human, Dougie? Just how many Iraqi hospitals have you visited lately?

It would appear that due to the US's vast military superiority that it can kill or maim about 20 Iraqis to every one of its own who is killed or maimed.

Now, I guess "sub-human" depends on which side fo thre fence yer sittin'. With over 10,000 civilian Iraqi deeaths, and countin', one might see the US "liberators" as the sub-human...

And, no, I am not condonin' anything the Iraqis do...

Just pointing out that we here in the US don't have clue as to thelevel of human pain and drstruction we have inflicted on the Iraqi people...

Now I'm beginning to see why Bush was so adament on not signin' on to the World Court..

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: pdq
Date: 11 May 04 - 08:01 PM

Lepus Rex...here is a quote from the 'Mabus' forum cited by Jim McCallan:
   "The slaying recalled the kidnapping and videotaped beheading of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl in 2002 in Pakistan. Four Islamic militants have been convicted of kidnapping Pearl, but seven other suspects - including those who allegedly slit his throat - remain at large."

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 May 04 - 07:54 PM

Try here: 'Mabus' Discussion Forum It is a Danish news report, but the beheading itself is not shown

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Peace
Date: 11 May 04 - 07:51 PM

Lepus: We are arguing semantics. We too are war profiteers by that definition. You are telling me that if I went there to help train structual firefighters, and received pay for doing that, that I would be profiteering. What if I did that for firefighters a few towns away from where I live? Would that make me a profiteer?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 11 May 04 - 07:49 PM

("I didn't say that all Americans working in Iraq is a profiteer" --- "all Americans" = "any American")

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 11 May 04 - 07:47 PM

DonMeixner: I didn't say that all Americans working in Iraq is a profiteer. There are many non-missionary aid workers and human rights workers, for instance, who I fully support. But people who are there for the big, big money: profiteers. And you haven't given one reason why they shouldn't be called that.

Martin Gibson: First, genius: It's Lepus.

Second: Ah, fuck it. The opinion of a racist isn't worth responding to. Hope that whole "white supremacy" thing works out for you, though. Heil Hitler, dude.

And did I say it wasn't wrong to kill the guy, brucie? As I said, "it's an unfortunate ending, even for a war profiteer." Horrible thing, what happened to him. But he was still a profiteer.

Doug: OK, I know I'm not your favourite, but I've always respected you and valued your views here. But... "they are subhuman, and in my opinion deserve no special consideration if captured"? You're not helping your cause with creepy Nazi-like statements such as this.

Oh, and here's another link to the video, with screenshots. Oops, nope. It's not there anymore. "This Account Has Been Suspended" Odd...

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Peace
Date: 11 May 04 - 07:44 PM

DougR: I cannot begin to perceive people as sub-human. They have had their minds twisted by leaders--both political and religious. Sick, yes. Sub-human, no.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DougR
Date: 11 May 04 - 07:33 PM

So Guest, because he was over there on his own, he got what he deserved, right? From reports I have heard on TV, he was there as an independent contractor helping to improve the communications infracture of Iraq. For that he desereved to be beheaded?

Anyone who compares the abuse in the prison to an act like this needs his/her head examined (though while still in place).

This act illustrates the kind of enemy we are facing. They are subhuman, and in my opinion deserve no special consideration if captured.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 11 May 04 - 07:04 PM

I found the complete video at www.orgish.com

Be warned it is what they say!

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Bobert
Date: 11 May 04 - 06:57 PM

Well, in this overy sanitized war I don't find it too difficult undersatnd the outrage... Americans have not seen what has and is happening in Iraq, or Afganistan, fir that matter...

Now, if just 1% of the actual human pain and suffering by both Iraqis and American and their so-called coilition, were to be shown then the reaction would be much different. Hey, the US invaded a country with a third rate defense with their "Shock and Awe", not the Iraqis invading the US! In doing so it killed thouasnds and thousands of Iragis, most of them civilians... And now were are surprised that we have pissed off some folks over there to the point where that are acting in such a brutal fashion? Hmmmmmm?

Like what am I missing here???

Throw in the recent pics of the ubuse of Iraqi prisoners and when Bush satnds up and says' "Bring it on", he's certain to find lots of folks willing to do just that...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Peace
Date: 11 May 04 - 06:24 PM

The taking of any human life is a sin against all humanity. The spin Lepus puts on it seems to be that if people are anywhere to help rebuild a country they are profiteers. The killing of people to make political statements is sick--as sick as killing other people for oil or geopolitics.

I don't think Lepus is an idiot. I do think he ain't wrapped too tight.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 May 04 - 06:09 PM

Both sides disgust in this disgust me. Not in Iraq, in this thread. I shan't return.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: MAG
Date: 11 May 04 - 06:06 PM

That racist attitude is why we are in such a mess over there, tacoma-webber.

people like you make me embarrassed for the human race.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 11 May 04 - 06:06 PM

Every news site on the internet has seen this video but the public do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 May 04 - 06:02 PM

I agree with don Meixner's explanation Lupus Rex and you are still an idiot.

American soldiers have sprayed water on these dirtbags, pretended to electrocute them, and put them in naked body piles so they can smell their own stink. I wouldn't doubt if most of the pictures we have seen have been for souvinirs.

Cutting off your enemies head on a video is far cry from this.

I don't sanction what was done to the Arab prisoners in the least, but we weren't doing anything while yelling some fanatic religious saying.

These are the worst of the maggot Arabs we are at war with.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 11 May 04 - 05:18 PM

Sorry, Nerd, you're right, it was just ONE American. The story doesn't say that the beheader is Jordanian, only that he has been operating in Iraq, so please excuse me if I assumed that he is himself Iraqi.

Any Clone has my permission to change the title of this thread to American Allegedly Beheaded in Iraq by Jordanian Man.

Kim C
Not a victim or participant

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: MAG
Date: 11 May 04 - 05:15 PM

there have been quite enough atrocities on all sides. It would be nice for everyone to stop.

I've been singing that tune about the middle east for, oh, about 3 decades.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 11 May 04 - 05:15 PM

Lepus

Not everyone who goes to theater of war is there to profiteer. Make a profit maybe. Earn a living while doing good perhaps. To assume that all people who are working in a theater of war are crooks at best because they happen to be Americans is a stupid as me calling you an idiot out of hand.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 11 May 04 - 05:15 PM

God damn, pdq, fucking brilliant point. That has everything to do with what happened 1500 miles away a few years ago! Remember Danny Pearl! And let's not forget the Holocaust, what they did to our boys in Vietnam, and of course the fucking Alamo, while we're at it. :P

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 11 May 04 - 05:09 PM

Ouch, snappy comeback, Don! Instead of calling me an "idiot," why don't you explain to me why I'm wrong?

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: pdq
Date: 11 May 04 - 05:09 PM

In February, 2002, an American journalist was kidnapped and murderd by al Qaeda members who had once been in Afghanistan. I believe he was beheaded, even butchered further into bloody parts. Have people forgotten about Danny Pearl already?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 11 May 04 - 05:01 PM

No lep[us, That makes you an idiot.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:58 PM

Didn't appear to have been made "for kicks," greg, though it's certainly possible that the killers were enjoying themselves. But just because it's an American corpse this time doesn't make it any more outrageous to me than what happens to Iraqis there every day. I've seen more than enough American "snuff movies" over the last year where the soldiers were taking obvious pleasure in murder. On CNN, even.

DonMeixner: Americans and other high-paid westerners going to Iraq to "rebuild the infrastructure," drive trucks, etc., (and their employers, of course, whose profiteering has been widely documented) are there to make large amounts of cash. They're selling their services for many times the price that an Iraqi would be paid, and so are making unreasonable profits from the war. And perhaps unlike in Afghanistan, there are more than enough qualified natives. Just my opinion, of course, but I'd say that makes them profiteers.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: kendall
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:53 PM

Isn't it rewarding to see how well we have learned from the Arabs and Israelis? Sure keeps the population down.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:42 PM

Indeed, Ar-Zaqawi, the man who is reported to have done this, is Jordanian, not Iraqi. I'm not sure if Kim C's distortions above (that there was more than one American beheaded and that the assailants were Iraqi) are intentional or an honest mistake. It sure has the feel of the right-wing echo chamber, so I guess Kim C is either a participant in it or a victim of it!

This is a case of two groups (Al Qaeda and the US) at war in a place where neither group belongs. The administration of course will spin this as "see, they're worse than we are."   But as usual, it's a different "them." We torture Iraqi civilians, Al Qaeda beheads an American, we torture some more Iraqis, Al Qaeda kills some more Americans. It's great for Al Qaeda, sucks for both us and Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:39 PM

Lepus,

How did you reach the determination that Berg was a War Profiteer?

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:38 PM

It's unfortunate, all right. One more can of gasoline thrown on the fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:33 PM

That is answered in the story, GUEST. He was rebuilding communications antennas. Besides, what does that have to do with his being beheaded?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:31 PM

Well, making repellent snuff movies for kicks might be considered by most of us a little worse than "unfortunate".

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:28 PM

Well, it's not clear that it was Iraqis doing the beheading, and it was "only" one guy, so "Americans" is innacurate. But, yeah, it's an unfortunate ending, even for a war profiteer.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:19 PM

Horrific.

But it does beg the question, what was this guy doing on his own in Iraq?

Subject: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 11 May 04 - 03:44 PM

Story Here at CNN