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BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans

Strollin' Johnny 23 May 04 - 02:38 PM
George Papavgeris 23 May 04 - 02:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 May 04 - 02:02 PM
Apache 23 May 04 - 01:32 PM
GUEST 23 May 04 - 01:27 PM
Once Famous 23 May 04 - 12:57 PM
Greg F. 23 May 04 - 12:24 PM
Ebbie 23 May 04 - 11:49 AM
dianavan 23 May 04 - 10:21 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 May 04 - 06:46 AM
Strollin' Johnny 23 May 04 - 02:54 AM
GUEST 23 May 04 - 01:44 AM
GUEST 23 May 04 - 01:44 AM
dianavan 23 May 04 - 01:42 AM
GUEST,jwp@att.net 22 May 04 - 10:51 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 May 04 - 04:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 May 04 - 04:14 PM
DonMeixner 22 May 04 - 03:56 PM
Peace 22 May 04 - 02:03 PM
robomatic 21 May 04 - 06:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 May 04 - 06:31 PM
Once Famous 21 May 04 - 05:22 PM
DonMeixner 21 May 04 - 05:18 PM
Kim C 21 May 04 - 04:49 PM
DonMeixner 21 May 04 - 03:39 PM
Big Mick 21 May 04 - 11:02 AM
Kim C 21 May 04 - 09:47 AM
GUEST,Clint Keller 21 May 04 - 12:50 AM
dianavan 20 May 04 - 11:20 PM
Big Mick 20 May 04 - 10:02 PM
CarolC 20 May 04 - 09:54 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 May 04 - 09:44 PM
dianavan 20 May 04 - 09:33 PM
Kim C 20 May 04 - 02:13 PM
Greg F. 20 May 04 - 01:00 PM
beardedbruce 20 May 04 - 12:25 PM
Big Mick 20 May 04 - 12:02 PM
Bobert 19 May 04 - 11:13 PM
dianavan 19 May 04 - 11:01 PM
GUEST 19 May 04 - 06:02 PM
GUEST 19 May 04 - 06:00 PM
Don Firth 19 May 04 - 05:57 PM
Once Famous 19 May 04 - 05:02 PM
Kim C 19 May 04 - 02:42 PM
Strollin' Johnny 19 May 04 - 12:54 PM
Kim C 19 May 04 - 12:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 May 04 - 12:20 PM
Kim C 19 May 04 - 12:09 PM
dianavan 19 May 04 - 10:57 AM
Kim C 19 May 04 - 09:46 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 23 May 04 - 02:38 PM

McGrath, Dianavan, Ebbie - as I said, I disagree strongly with a great deal of jwp's post, but I have sufficient humanity, and personal experience of the effect of war on the people who find themselves actually involved in the violence, to realise that this person's post, if genuine (and I have no way of proving or disproving that, nor for that matter have you), has a real basis in actual experience, and the views expressed in it are as valid as anyone else's.

Dianavan - your question "Who told you that?" - I'll explain. I didn't, and I don't need to, put words in your mouth, isn't it obvious from the question that you believe jwp's views as expressed in the posting are a regurgitation of some political dogma that's been fed to him/her, and not genuinely-held personal views? If you didn't think that, why ask the question? And you've made no secret of your scorn for, and distrust of, the US Administration and those you perceive as their lackeys, (something on which we do in fact agree) so why wouldn't anyone assume that your post (which consisted simply of that terse question and in which, unlike me, you made no attempt whatsoever to display the 'deep heartful sympathy' that you're now claiming to feel for this unfortunate person) was merely an attempt to either denigrate jwp because of their service in the occupying forces in Iraq, or to goad him/her into making another posting in the same vein as their first so that you could attack him/her further. If your response to jwp's post had been along the lines of "You have my sympathy for having been involved in this unjust war, and for the damage it's done to you, but I'd appreciate it if you would explain why you believe........etc. etc.", I would have had no reason to respond as I did, but an unqualified "Who told you that" reads as being loaded with anger and aggression against the questionee. If I misjudged you then I'm happy to put my hand up and apologise, but you've nailed your colours firmly to the mast in this and other threads, and in that respect perhaps you're reaping what you've sown?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 May 04 - 02:22 PM

I am willing to accept that GUEST,jwp's posting is honest, and heartfelt. But in this case, it worries the hell out of me that he thinks Iraqis flew planes into the Twin Towers. If he bases his feelings on "facts" like this, he needs to re-examine some of them. It is factual inaccuracies like this that will lead others either to doubt the sencerity of the message or dismiss it as a whole. Surely Martin, you don't agree with this statement (about Iraqis flying the planes, I mean)?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 04 - 02:02 PM

Heartfelt? You really think that the rant was genuine? Well, I suppose anything is possible. But it read like "a Modest Proposal" to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Apache
Date: 23 May 04 - 01:32 PM

Are we sure that the video is real, did anyone check the Created On: date.

Is this just another random snuff film from the internet?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 04 - 01:27 PM

Heartfelt crap then.

Martin, you agree with this jerk as you are full of hate, intolerance and bigotry as he is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 May 04 - 12:57 PM

Utter crap?

It was heartfelt and closer to the truth then you can say Greg F.

And of course you also, dianavan.

Both of your challanges to Guest, jwp were some of the lamest comebacks I have ever read.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 May 04 - 12:24 PM

Then there's the fact that the jwp rant is utter crap.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 May 04 - 11:49 AM

I think "Who told you that?" was a valid question. That 'Iraq hates us because they hate freedom' is a frequently postulated idea of the current White House gang.

It does not seem likely that an Iraqi, asked why s/he hates the USA, answered, Because I hate freedom.

Nah.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 23 May 04 - 10:21 AM

Strollin Johnny - I asked a simple question.

You have certainly read alot into what I said and you certainly do not know what my feelings are regarding the poster. If you believe what you wrote, those are your ideas, not mine.

My thoughts regarding the poster are more akin to deep, heartful sympathy. Don't presume to second guess me, read between the lines or put words in my mouth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 04 - 06:46 AM

I suspect that rant by jwp is probably "black propaganda" by someone who wants to put the USA in the worst possible light. Not really much need for that these days, maybe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 23 May 04 - 02:54 AM

Dianavan - GUEST jwp's post is an eloquent expression of a different viewpoint, which he/she seems (assuming he/she is telling the truth about recent service in Iraq) to have gained from the experience of being there. Just because it differs wildly from your view of things, and it's literary style is perhaps less sophisticated that that of many others on this thread, doesn't mean it's any less valid, and your comment of "Who told you that" is a low shot at someone who's apparently witnessed the dungheap of the Iraq situation at first-hand (something which, thankfully, you and I are never likely to have to do).

I don't agree with him/her either but, please, at least have the grace to accept that this person has formed their opinion not on the biased propaganda fed us by the media and the politicians, but on personal experience and observation, in a situation not of their own making and where they have suffered danger and deprivations of which the likes of us have little or no experience. I personally know people who have served in the current Iraq action and, trust me, they are changed forever. The psychological scars, and the physical ones too, are borne by all sides. In war everyone suffers, and I think GUEST jwp's post, warts and all, is proof positive of that.

The plight of the people of the Middle East (not just Iraq) is appalling and an affront to civilised society, I know we agree on that, but it's not the servicemen and women of the United States and other countries who should be suffering the fall-out from your Rage Against America - they went because they had no other realistic option (unless you count Court-Martial as an option, and I guess that's not acceptable to your average soldier) - it's the liars, self-servers and sycophants in The White House, on Capitol Hill, in Westminster and in the world's media that you need to turn your venom against. IMHO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 04 - 01:44 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 04 - 01:44 AM

Could it possibly be that they hate you because you represent an occupying military power that has been shown to use torture and to have killed those it was claiming to be protecting/freeing.

And however you feel about it, it is their culture not yours, seeking to change it by waving a gun in their face is even less likely to endear yourselves to the Iraqi people, they are a devout (whether you like it or not) people with a long history of which they are proud. Claiming to know better while driving around Baghdad in your tanks will not win hearts and minds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 23 May 04 - 01:42 AM

jwt - "Iraqi people hate us because of our freedom. They want a communist country where the men control it."

Who told you this?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,jwp@att.net
Date: 22 May 04 - 10:51 PM

Just a few comments on the war. I am in special operations and just returned from Iraq. What is the United States citizens thinking when they say they don't support the war. In reality they just have to support the men and women. 90% of the armed forces joined not thinking about going to war but to make a better life for themselves and to get a better education. Most are 18-22 year old kids scared for their lives over there. If you remember they flew planes into the TWIN TOWERS, we didn't. Before I joined I somewhat felt the same way but after seeing how the women and children have to live that was it. Every Iraqi terrorist we encountered had a 12-13 year old wife when he himself is in his 30's. You could see the childhood that was taken from them in their eyes. I read an article earlier and some American was apologizing for the United States actions of this war. What about the news reporters, Iraqi's are beheading, raping, shooting, burning, hanging, beating, and draging Americans as we speak. For someone to say they were wrong for being there, or the news to say we are wrong for the recent things that we have did to them is a punishible crime in itself. During the vietnam war special forces did so well because of psycological warfare. The SEALS found out that Vietnamese thought their souls would not rest if all of the body parts weren't intact. The SEALS would take bits out of their livers and other body parts and that is how they became to be known as the most terrified force and named The Green Faced Devil's. Now because of the news and bleeding heart Americans we can't deprive them of any of their senses I.E hoods, blind folds or tape, food deprevation or sleep. If americans would support us and let us convert to psychological warfare again then all of the terrorist acts would cease, less American lives lost and the war would be over. The Iraqi terrorists favorite words were I know my rights! If that is so then why are we being killed when they are getting food 3 times a day and a living quarters better than some of military personnel live in. Did you know the Army troops at one point had to survive on one MRE a day and give 2 of theirs away so the Iraqi detainees could have 3? We take some pictures and they behead a person. Does that sound right? Do we go and grab an Iraqi in the States and cut off his head for their actions? They are doing all of this because they know if they get caught they will live better than they do know. If we could go over there and do the same things as they do the war would be over. Americans think the military is killing our troops but in reality it is American citizens and their bleeding hearts. War isn't pretty and everyone that is not or has not served in the armed forces should feel really lucky. If we didn't have people willing to go do this they there would be a draft and you don't get to choose if you want to go or not. It is hard to see the other side of things if you have never served but talk to people that have and have been over there to learn. No matter how you think you are getting screwed by our government or how much it sucks, believe me it could be alot worse. We are the land of the free. Iraqi people hate us because of our freedom. They want a communist country where the men control it. To the men that think we are wrong I hope you can feel the pain of the little girl who has had here hopes, virginity, dreams and life taken away from her which could be your daughter. To the women, picture a life where you were forced to marry an uncle or brother at 13, your virginity taken away. I know there isn't a women in the world that doesn't like to snuggle with their husbands at night. Imagine sleeping in a room with 10 women and 20 children while your husband sleeps in the other end of the house with 10 men. Imagine your daughter being taken away at 12 or 13 for marriage. This is alittle sample of reality that goes on there. Finally to the NEWS REPORTERS and the PEOPLE that never support us and pray for forgivness to Iraqi terrorists for us going over there freeing them, for pay back for 9\11, and every other terrorist attack they have performed on any country. May God give the United States the brains and balls to take away your citizenships and send you over to the Middle East for a taste of reality. If there is anyone interested in more information you can contact me at jwp@att.net. I don't want to change your view but hope to open your eyes alittle. Also don't talk about things you don't know about. If this country is so wrong what are you doing living here? Get out and make the world a better place.

Thank You for you time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 May 04 - 04:37 PM

Pushed the button, and then noticed you'd said British there, not English (though you didn't in respect of your ancestors).


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 May 04 - 04:14 PM

I have more in common with Yanks than I do with people from Britain or Ireland. You leave out the Scots there, brucie, I see...


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 22 May 04 - 03:56 PM

Bruce,

You are a man of rare good wisdom. Trust the people you watch TV with, not the people you watch on TV.

Don


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Peace
Date: 22 May 04 - 02:03 PM

I come from Irish/English/Scottish ancestors, and I have more in common with Yanks than I do with people from Britain or Ireland. I don't trust the American government, but I do trust the American people. (Parenthetically, I don't trust the Canadian government, either!)


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Subject: Way off topic here...
From: robomatic
Date: 21 May 04 - 06:55 PM

Di-van:

While I have disagreed with some of your posts, I may have seen more of Canada than you, and I urge you to see more of your own beautiful country.

Though I have been in support of the war in Iraq, I don't hold it against Canada that with the information in front of them, they have taken a different course.

I have driven the Trans-Canada, the Alaska Highway (which is mostly in Canada), and I have some strong beliefs:

1)That we in the U.S. have been luckier than we deserve to have the northerly neighbor we do.

2)I agree that most of U.S. has almost no knowledge of Canadian history and the part we played in it.

3)Stan Rogers was a genius.

4)Where has all the ginger beer gone?

5)I really wish the Canadian identity could hold out a bit better than it has, but I guess the McDonaldization of the entire world is bringing us closer together.

6)I don't forget things like having some of our Iranian hostages safeguarded in the Canadian Embassy and returned to us. I guarantee you that whatever bitchin we Yanks do, you will find that a lot of us remember.

7)I really hope you can keep your country together. Another reason you should spend some time travelling it. If Quebec goes independent, I think it's a matter of time before most of Canada would formally become American. It wouldn't be a disaster, but it would be a shame.

8)One of the great stories of incredible rivalry and friendship is the story of Halifax and Boston. Both fielded privateers against the other in the periods around the first two American English wars. Fortunes were built in Halifax on plundering the American trade. FAST-forward to the burning French munitions ship which exploded in Halifax harbor during WWI and a huge amount of aide was rendered from the city of Boston.


Now if only you guys would learn to spell...


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 May 04 - 06:31 PM

Here's a piece by Nick Berg's father, Michael Berg, published in today's Guardian:

"Even more than the murderers who took my son's life, I condemn those who make policies to end lives ":

"...My son's work still goes on. Where there was one peacemaker before, I now see and have heard from thousands of peacemakers. Nick was a man who acted on his beliefs. We, the people of this world, now need to act on our beliefs. We need to let the evildoers on both sides of the Atlantic know that we are fed up with war. We are fed up with the killing and bombing and maiming of innocent people. We are fed up with the lies.

Yes, we are fed up with the suicide bombers, and with the failure of the Israelis and Palestinians to find a way to stop killing each other. We are fed up with negotiations and peace conferences that are entered into on both sides with preset conditions that preclude the outcome of peace. We want world peace now.

This is an extract from his message of support for the Stop The War Coalition's demonstration, "End the Torture - Bring the Troops Home Now", which will be held at 11am tomorrow at the Embankment in London


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 May 04 - 05:22 PM

First of all, I keep returning to this thread to see the fallout and the tap dancing.

I can choose when I want to be intellectual or plain just not want to. I will usually give what I perceive to be hate mongers of Americans and Jews a does of their own crap and I don't pretend in the slightest to call this type of hate high intellectual thought, which some obviously do.

Big Mick is right when he says dianavan is the one of the most anti-american posters on this board. It's then oh so easy to try to get some sympathy when someone calls her on it and then someone else agrees.

Big Mick is also right for standing up for seeing the good in America and I'll stand up for it with him. People like dianavan rub me wrong and I know I rub some here wrong. To her and to those, fuck ya.

Sorry Kim C., tried to be sweet there for a while, but gave up. Just being honest with my feelings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 21 May 04 - 05:18 PM

And NOW the NPR news people are saying there are two Iraqis in custody. The police allowed the other to to leave. The two in custody are being questioned untill the authoritieds are positive of innocence, or I suppose guilt (chargeability).

Don


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 21 May 04 - 04:49 PM

Veeeeeellllly intellesteenk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 21 May 04 - 03:39 PM

On the NPR News at 1:00 today the reporters anoounced there were 4
Iraqis in custody and charged with Mr. Bergs death. They had been members of the Fedayeen. More news will probably follow.

Don


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 May 04 - 11:02 AM

I will agree that many citizens of the US know little about Canada. I spend a great deal of time in Canada, and am fascinated by its patchwork of peoples, its politics, its way of life, its history, and its music. The songwriters seem so tied to the land they inhabit, and the history, and their pride of country, that it seems they write music unlike much of what I hear out there. My comments are not intended to reflect discontent with Canada, in fact I have great admiration for that country and its denizens. They have retained much of what the US has lost. It is a unique and wonderful country, with an identity that is enviable.

As to criticism of the US, much of it is deserved, and I can't recall a time when I was more disappointed in the actions of my country. I just react when I see justifiable criticism cross over into the area of everything we do is despicable. The contributions of this noble experiment are legion. Its mistakes are out there for all to see. We are not a perfect nation, but our people, in the main, are decent and well intentioned. I agree with John McCain and others when they say that only full disclosure, prosecution, public mea culpa, and then get back on the road. While we never should have been in Iraq to begin with, we certainly have a moral obligation to help restore the infrastructure, turn the government over to leaders the Iraqui's choose in a free, fair, and internationally monitored process of some sort, and leave. Succinct and oversimplified, I agree, but that is the path we must follow. And no alibi'ing our actions in those prisons.

As to the animal that beheaded Berg, my opinion is the same. And the same standard should apply to all sides in this matter.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 21 May 04 - 09:47 AM

Y'know, I never thought much about it, but the fact is, I don't know much about Canada. Or Mexico either for that matter. The only time I ever hear much about Canada in the news is when the Quebecois have a secession referendum.

As for the bull in the china shop.... that also depends on the size of the bull and the size and layout of the shop. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 21 May 04 - 12:50 AM

GregF

Thanks for the Mencken quote. I've tried to explain that idea to people but never had the right words.

I think I'll have it tattooed on me somewhere handy.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 20 May 04 - 11:20 PM

Thanks, Mick

I want to say that any country that thinks they have the right to ship their garbage to another country is wrong. I'm not sure but I think this is not Canadian policy but rather a provincial matter, maybe even civic. I remember reading something about it but it seemed a long ways away - like Toronto or something.

Living in Vancouver, I have much more in common with people from the Northwest U.S. (where I was born) and California than I do with anyone from Ontario or farther east. Living in Vancouver, I probably have more in common with Chinese-Canadians. In fact, I know very little about the country of Canada - never been outside the province of B.C. Seems my travels have only been on the Pacific side of the continent. I seem to hop from here to New York and then across the Atlantic. Haven't seen much in between.

I am hard on the U.S. I know, but you should understand that its an easy thing to criticize when it is always in your face. I am hard on the U.S. because it is the hope of the world and it is behaving very badly. I hold Canada, however, to even higher standards because we, I believe, are the caretakers of a vital part of the world ecology. I also hope that Canada can continue their role as peacekeepers in a world where there is so little trust.

I was very proud when Chretien stood up to Bush. Considering we live right next door, it was a brave and honorable thing to do. I hope our new Prime Minister, Martin, can be as tough. Unfortunately, I think he is probably another corrupt, fat cat. We will see how far he can push the Kyota accord and how he handles such issues as global warming and sustainable living. He has said that our economy depends on a healthy environment - we will see if he can put his money where his mouth is. From what I hear, his money is mostly off-shore.

People from the U.S. know so little about Canada, its history and its politics, that its futile to discuss it. Canadians, however, know alot about whats happening in the U.S. If we want to discuss world events, we must talk about the U.S. because that is what most people from the U.S. understand. Would you like to discuss the NDP's or the Liberals or the Progressive Conservatives? See what I mean?

There's a joke on the coast about Torontonians. They think that Canada is what they can see from the top of the CN tower. I think that in large part, that goes for the majority of Americans. We only know what we can see from within the confines of our own reality. And yes, America, for all of its beauty, is becoming fat and ugly with age. Look at what slightly over 100 years have done to this continent, and indeed the world. I do think its time we started behaving like responsible world citizens.

Thanks again for your kind words. I am not an intellectual by any stretch of the imagination. I am largely self educated (I started university in my 40's) and aside from mudcat, I hardly ever discuss politics with my friends or family. For me, this is part of my education which I believe to be a lifelong experience. When I stop learning, I will be in the act of dying.

Just for the record, I'm not much of a Nationalist. I call myself an American hybrid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 May 04 - 10:02 PM

dianavan, perhaps I am being unfair, as this is simply a perceptual observation. You are a very interesting poster to me. I find your arguments to be well thought out, I really like your intensity, and find myself in agreement with a great deal of what you say. But it seems to me, and I admit that it is simply my perception, that you are much harder on the US than anyone else. At the moment the only example I can think of is when you were castigating the US for its environmental abuses and use of resources. I recall (and I might be combining several posts here as I am responding quickly and from memory)that I indicated that Canadian large cities had as much traffic as any cities I had ever been in. I also indicated that it seemed odd to me that environmental criticism from someone who can't seem to find a way to dispose of its own trash lacked credibility. I was implying that there is hypocrisy in not wanting to despoil your own wilderness, so instead you ship it to the US. As I recall, there was not much response, nothing like your comments about the US.

Having said all that, let me say this. You are one of the most enjoyable of the newer Mudcatters. While I may take issue with some of your posts, I must tell you that I hope to meet you one day and share a song or two. I enjoy the zeal with which you make your arguments, and I know that when I engage in a debate with you, I better be prepared to defend my positions.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:54 PM

You don't know squirrels like I know squirrels, McGrath. I'd go for more of a "hamster in a china shop" as compared to a "stegosaurus in a china shop" analogy.

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:44 PM

When you are the world superpower, and the strongest and wealthiest enterprise on the planet, it is inevitable that people focus their attention on what you get up to, because it really does make a big difference.

The reason people talk about bulls in china shops, and not about squirrels in china shops, is because a china shop with a bull in it is a very different place from a china shop with a squirrel in it. Even when the squirrel is a very badly behaved squirrel and the bull is a relatively well-behaved bull, the bull is likely to do a great deal more damage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:33 PM

Thank-you Greg F. - thats exactly the point.

As to not criticizing Canada. I would and I do but not as vehemently as I do the U.S. The political system here is quite different and I'm still learning the ins and outs. Besides, like I said before, the U.S. is the standard bearer for the world. If the U.S. doesn't change, It is very difficult for others to initiate change. The economic pressures are enormous.

Besides that, there are not enough Canadians in the 'catbox' to argue with. It seems that most of the time we are in agreement.

Don't forget, I always make the distinction between the U.S. and America. As a Canadian, I am a part of America. I am not, however, living in the U.S. When I say America, I'm talking about Canadians, too.

Mick - Please give me an example of not holding Canada to the same standards. In fact, I do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 20 May 04 - 02:13 PM

Dianavan, I ain't offended. I like it much better when people can be pleasant to one another but from a practical standpoint, I know that can't happen all the time.

Martin, please be sweet. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 May 04 - 01:00 PM


The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.

         -H. L. Mencken


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 04 - 12:25 PM

Mick:

Agreed- Thank you for the post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 May 04 - 12:02 PM

Martin Gibson, you seem to think that you can make up for your inability to carry on with intellectual depth by using foul words and covering your weaknesses by using the Holocaust as cover. Pretty despicable. I accept that the Holocaust, arguably, was the single greatest atrocity ever committed in the history of mankind. Even if one doesn't accept that, it is hard to not include it in the top two or three. Done, I agree. But using it as an excuse to not discuss the current problems with the Israelis and Palestinians is just begging for the current problem to continue. I support the rights of the Israelis to have their homeland. I support the same right for the Palestinians. It is fair, when looking at the tactics being used by Israel, to draw parallels to other times. It is also fair to point out that the use of children as suicide bombers is a terrible tactic. I don't know how this seems to you, but the people of Israel, like the folks in the North of Ireland, seem to be speaking very loudly. And they want attitudes like yours to disappear. Using the Holocaust to justify horrific actions seems like the ultimate sin to me.

dianavan, I appreciate many of your posts. But I do agree that you seem to take every opportunity to criticize the US, and never hold your adopted homeland, or any other country, to the same standard.   The examples abound.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Bobert
Date: 19 May 04 - 11:13 PM

Well gol danged, Martin! Yeah, you might have some folks you suffered at the hands on the Nazis, but your response to Jack the Sailor was nothing short of "brown-shirt-ism". You might want to revist Germany in the 30's before making your comparisions 'cause, in your attempts to paint others, you have done nothin' more than paint yourself...

Don't like hearin' it? Then stop. Ain't no rocket surgery... Think about it...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 19 May 04 - 11:01 PM

Kim C. - I am sorry if I offended your sensibilities. I do think you started this thread as a serious inquiry. I applaud anyone who chooses to open a discussion to gain insight into an issue. Like you say, lets put all of the speculation into a pot and stir it up. Maybe we will someday find a little bit of truth. It is doubtful if we will ever know the whole truth.

Although I have never met any of the Mudcatters, after awhile, it becomes quite evident who is being honest (at least from their heart) and who is spewing hatred. Anything a 'hate monger' has to say is not worth listening to.

Although I have been accused of hating Americans, it is not true. I do, however, question how the land of my birth has evolved. It saddens me because I know the American people are generally not mean spirited and ignorant. When I criticize, I am speaking in general terms and those terms can usually be extended to the country of my residence because I know that the U.S.A. is a role model for the world. It is a privilege to be an American citizen but that privilege carries with it a very big responsibility. Part of that responsibility is to question and criticize the government. When citizens stop doing that and accept the word of the government with 'blind faith', the ideals of democracy are dead.

I love the rebel that is America. I despise the cowardice of the status quo and when the 'establishment' is content to sit in the lap of luxury and ignore the plight of the oppressed, I weep.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 04 - 06:02 PM

Wait, maybe the box rot smell is trying to smell like something else! So, let's stick with emulates.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 04 - 06:00 PM

emulates? Nah, emanates maybe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 May 04 - 05:57 PM

Isn't he sweet?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 May 04 - 05:02 PM

dianavan i am not a Jewish Nazi. You are so fucking ignorant. There is no such thing. And I enjoy pushing your buttons even more. Comparing me to Hitler is so childish that it it is beyond comprehension. You are obviously so stupid and ignorant about the holocaust and I believe life in general.

Your disdain for all things American emulates like the box rot that permeates the air from from your crotch.

I may call you names that you so deserve, but your obsession with Nazis shows YOUR true colors.

No I don't hate all Arabs. I just detest the ones who hate Jews.

Jack the Sailor, don't bump you fat head on the ceiling of your trailor. go brush your tooth, you moron. And I'll bring my relatives who suffered in the concentration camps in to my arguement and honor their memory anytime I please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 19 May 04 - 02:42 PM

Perhaps if we put all the bullshit into one big pile, we might be able to find enough usable bullshit to suss out a fairly accurate assessment of the situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 19 May 04 - 12:54 PM

Propaganda, smokescreens, bullshit, evasions, exaggerations, half-truths and bare-faced lies. That's what we're served up with daily by all parties to this unholy mess. How can anyone claim to know what's going on? We can surmise, suspect, deduce, guess, but we can't possibly know. So will you all stop pretending you have the answers please? It's just whatever piece of propaganda you've accepted because it suits your politics. You're driving me nuts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 19 May 04 - 12:42 PM

Now I'm doubly curious. The AP story McGrath links to questions the validity of the claim; and no recent news stories have mentioned that the prime suspect in the Berg murder was supposed to be dead already.

What's up with that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 May 04 - 12:20 PM

Here's an Associated Press news item dated March 4th. Iraq militants claim al-Zarqawi is dead Whether it's accurate, who knows? Who knows whether the other stuff about him is accurate either?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 19 May 04 - 12:09 PM

This from the USAToday website, from a story posted last Friday:

"Much of the world reacted in horror to Berg's death and the grisly video that recorded it. U.S. intelligence officials have concluded that terrorist leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who has a $10 million price on his head by the U.S. government, was the person shown decapitating Berg."

This from Japan Today, regarding the arrests:

"It was understood that none of the four included al-Qaida linked Jordanian extremist Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi, who U.S. authorities believe carried out the killing of the 26-year-old along with other atrocities in Iraq.

However, Brig Gen Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of operations, said: "We have no information from the coalition that any arrests were made today." (Wire reports)"

This from the DoD website, from a transcript of a press conference today:

"Q    Stephanie Halasz, CNN. One question regarding Nicholas Berg. We're hearing that there are reports that four arrests were made regarding the killing of Berg. Can you tell us anything about that?



            GEN. KIMMITT: We have no information on the coalition that any arrests were made today."


I haven't found any reference to al-Zarqawi being killed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 19 May 04 - 10:57 AM

Kim C. - Once again, it depends on what you read. I read that al-Zarqawi was killed by a bomb a few months ago. Four men have been arrested for the beheading but al-Zarqawi was not one of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 19 May 04 - 09:46 AM

Guest from NW, to the best of my knowledge, it has been verified that Nicholas Berg was indeed beheaded. Who actually did it, and for what reason, may still be in question, but very recent reports seem to indicate that investigators are fairly certain it was al-Zarqawi.


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