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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 May 04 - 07:10 PM "Dehumanise" the enemy, and you start to underestimate them, and that is always a mstake. "Dehumanise" the people who aren't the enemy to start with, and you turn them into the enemy. The murder of this young man was a calculated action intended to achieve certain effects. Quite what these effects are intended to be is uncertain. Getting people to see this group as a major player in the confusing war going on in Iraq would presumably have been one of them. Another is surely to ensure that the Americans will respond in a way that makes more people in Iraq resent their presence, and see anybody whomis fighting them as on their side. (Which in fact is very unlikely to be the case, especially when it comes to the kind of people who killed Nicholas Berg.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST,petr Date: 13 May 04 - 08:22 PM the intended effect of this action is actually quite certain. to instill terror. the goal along with that is to delay, or discourage reconstruction in Iraq, by creating fear and instability. This will certainly make people think twice before working there. In the same way that the bombings of the UN headquarters did last year, and the bombings of the Shiites during the religious festival - although the people who were against the war, are even more against it. And those who supported it use this to show the inhumanity of the enemy. interesting that Hizbollah, condemned the execution, not only because it doesnt do much to advance the extreme Islamist cause, but the timing of it takes world attention away from the abuses in Abu Ghraib prison. (which I might add does damage the moral grounds behind the invasion, so to speak the last leg it had to stand on, after the wmds) On the other hand the abuse differs from Saddams 50 daily executions at Abu Ghraib, in orders of magnitude. ANd every country in the area without exception has much worse psyhological and physical torture routinely practiced in ints prisons. A fact rarely mentioned in AL Jazeera. ironic too, that the methods are to use the tools of globalism against itself - digital cameras and the internet. (as were airliners and skyscrapers in 911) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 13 May 04 - 09:31 PM Cracking post, Bill (the Stage Manager). The bit beginning "I suspect if we all think long and hard enough" comes right to the point. It is DougR's tragedy that he can't or won't do that - possibly because he is now senior in years, which would explain why his shallow thnking is, by and large, tolerated with good grace. I doubt if the same excuse is available to Martin Gibson. I would have devoted a post exclusively to his unpleasant ravings if Lepus (whose posts are not always my cup of tea) had not disposed of his arguments with such clinical efficiency. Responding to the Stage Manager, Kim said: "Bill, I don't know that anyone has ever neutralized terrorism at all." There are many recent examples. In Northern Ireland, Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, both one-time IRA activists, are now senior politicians. Nelson Mandela, leader of the ANC - once denounced by many in the US and the UK as terrorist commies - became a world statesman. Likewise Jomo Kenyatta, one-time leader of the Mau Mau insurgency (which when all propaganda has been removed from the equation killed about 35 people in total), who went on to be president of Kenya. Likewise Menachem Begin, a former terrorist by his own account, who eventually signed a peace accord with Anwar Sadat. Perhaps most instructive of all, extremist Hutus who partipated in Rwanda's genocidal slaughter of 1994, in which atrocities at least as unpleasant as the Berg beheading occurred at a rate of thousans a day (with no exceptions made for women and children), are being released from detention and back into the communities they did so much to destroy, on condition only that they acknowledge their crimes. To a no-brainer like DougR this will be unfathomable, but to Rwanda's Tutsis (and moderate Hutus), who were on the receiving end of the terror, it offers the only prospect of building harmony and long-term prosperity in a poor country. Only with the Bush administration have we been introduced to the certainty that terrorists are always wrong, can have no legitimate grievances and can never change their spots. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 13 May 04 - 10:06 PM Fionn, isn't the IRA still around? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST Date: 13 May 04 - 10:07 PM Who,indeed was behind those scarves? That's just it. It could have been anyone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Bobert Date: 13 May 04 - 10:23 PM You all are trying to be too clever about this... When Bush said "Bring it on" there were folks willing and capable of doing just that. His littel cowboy sideshow has now come home to haunt him... Like who couldn't see that this was going to happen? No, not specifics but something... It seems to me that Bush and company think the only way that they can stay in power is to provoke other folks to do some pretty bad stuff. Hey, the fact that the US has killed upwards of 20,000 Iraqis is immaterial to Bush and his cronies... Just get the film footage of the killing of one poor American and the 20,000 go away... Hmmmmmm? What a crock!!! What a crock... Yeah, tell the brothers, sisters, parents of any one of the 20,000 'er so Iraqi dead that the only thing on our minds is the death one American! Yeah, go tell 'um. I dare you... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: dianavan Date: 13 May 04 - 11:45 PM Kim C - "somehow he himself had most of the world leaders believing he was hiding something". Not actually. Most of the world leaders said there was no proof and therefore no reason. Bush decided to "go it alone." That is not most of the world leaders. I agree with guest - we still do not know who was behind the scarves. For all we know, it was set-up to take the heat off the Bush admin. and justify further aggression. Thank-you Fionn for enlightening all of us. The only way to neutralize terrorism is to listen to their grievances and reach a compromise. Every time you kill a terrorist, you create five more to take the place. The Iraqi people are innocent victims of two war lords - Bush and Saddam. One is no better than the other. Lepus Rex - Martin can't dance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Jim McCallan Date: 14 May 04 - 12:21 AM I heard this evening that voice analysts have more or less concluded that the voice on the tape is indeed that of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: dianavan Date: 14 May 04 - 01:19 AM Jim - Probably is Abu Musab al-Zarqawi but since when was he linked to AQ? Seems that German Intelligence has linked him to a militant cell of Jordanians who did not want to belong to AQ. So just who does he represent, anyway? Is he just another mercenary for hire? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Jim McCallan Date: 14 May 04 - 01:55 AM I alluded to the answer of that question in a parallel thread, here, Diana, and I quoted from this article (can't access it myself now, though; it's a 'subscription' page) I think however, that whatever 'indepencence' some of these organisations had before the invasion of Iraq, quite a lot of them do now see themselves as part of the larger Bin Laden 'network', insofar as some of their 'short-term' aims are concerned. Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST,Teribus Date: 14 May 04 - 02:11 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: SueB Date: 14 May 04 - 03:05 AM Wow! That was the best post from Teribus ever! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST Date: 14 May 04 - 07:51 AM al-Zarqawi is Jordanian (you see KimC, the nationality of the killers does matter--if it were Iraqi insurgents, US troops truly would be screwed). Unfortunately, it is the one source of information that lacks credibility, the Bush administration, that is telling us who the man behind the scarf is. Is it al-Zarqawil because the CIA says so? How credible is the US CIA? US military intelligence? The Pentagon? Answer: not credible at all. For quite some time now, the Bush administration has been claiming that al-Zarqawi is the cause of all our Iraqi woes, and not Iraqi insurgents. Except that information has turned out to be wrong too. It is clear the vast majority of unrest and violence is coming from anti-occupation Iraqi resistance fighters. But the Bush administration refuses to admit that is our greatest problem in Iraq, because it would mean admitting that we won all the battles, but lost the war because of our own racism, arrogance, and superiority complex. We've got the oil though, and that is why the Bush administration won't be pulling out any time soon. Both Bush and Kerry are saying they want to internationalize the troops and the political process. But neither one of them is saying they will internationalize the oil and all those lucrative "rebuilding" contracts, are they? No sirrreee. The Iraqi spoils of war go to us, and our coalition of the willing to plunder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST,Teribus Date: 14 May 04 - 08:05 AM GUEST 14 May 04 - 07:51 AM, So when voice analysts state that whatever message comes across from Osama bin Laden, they are unimpeachable sources. When same voice analysts state that the message on the audio track of the Berg execution is the voice of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, they are talking rubbish and totally unreliable. Whatever..... At the end of the day you can only run with the information you have. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST Date: 14 May 04 - 08:16 AM I would never claim that the voice analysts, or any analysts working for the CIA, are "unimpeachable" because in the US at least, both the FBI and the CIA are largely seen as the Keystone Cops. I'm with Senator John McCain (the Washington Post did a long article on him this week). He said he can't figure out for the life of him how it is that George Tenet still has his job at CIA. He, like me, figures he must have some real damaging evidence against Bush, et al. he is using against them. Maybe Shrub I left some personal items behind when he left... And at the end of the day, if you don't have the information, you shouldn't make it up and use it for propaganda, because it will always come back and bite you in the ass. Which keeps happening with Bush, et al, but we haven't seen it really hurt them at this point. Sure Bush is plummeting in the polls. Sure most Democrats will vote for Kerry only because he isn't Bush, not because he would make a good president. Sure we're screwed either way, come November. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: barrygeo Date: 14 May 04 - 08:19 AM Kim C A couple of comments "I thought it was retaliation for the last 12 years that Saddam Hussein flouted all the UN resolutions he said he would keep" My recollection is that weapons of mass destruction and a real and immediate threat was the reason for the war. If memory serves me the UN refused to sanction the war. If all UN resolutions were enforced as vigourously by the US perhaps the region would be less unstable. More importantly it now appears that intelligence reports were sexed up (certainly in the UK) to justify the war. "Maybe he was just pulling a good bluff to look like a big man in front of his supporters." In my limited experience of the Arab world (as distinct from the muslim world) saving face with one's peers in a major factor. If Saddam had failed to face down the US he would have been finished anyway because of perceived humiliation in the eyes of other Arabs. Remember comical Alli trying to save face by claiming the US forces were defeated while tanks roled along behind him. He wasn't nuts he was trying to save face. Fionn, isn't the IRA still around? The IRA is still around but the violence has been greatly reduced. As long as they(IRA) are being offered reasonable alternatives the popular support for violence dissappears. No terrorist group can survive without a level of popular support to hide them and feed them. In ireland it is looking like we are moving towards the end game and that the most extreme unionists will be able to do business with the most extreme nationalists once violence and the threat of violence is removed from the equation. Words have acheived more in ten years than the entire Brithish army and intelligence agencies could in 30 years. Violence begets Violence - dialogue is the only solution. Both Bush and Blair proclaim themselves as Christians doing their Christian duty - they must read a different version of the Bible than mine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 14 May 04 - 09:38 AM Thanks barrygeo. It seems like I remember Hillary Clinton saying on Meet the Press or something, that during the Clinton administration, a good portion of the UN, as well as herself AND her husband, believed Hussein had WMDs or was trying to get them. My understanding is that the world leaders DID believe he had/was trying to develop the weapons, there just wasn't enough hard evidence to support it. But then again, I'm just an unfrozen caveman. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Big Mick Date: 14 May 04 - 11:08 AM Mike, your post was a well reasoned explanation, and in theory I can buy into it. But I must point out that when some are so bereft of moral values that they can commit this type of brutally savage act, they are usually beyond redemption. I agree totally that, in the main, we must find common ground with the insurgents. It is, after all, their country. Bush's attempts to create some sort of western democracy in a country that has no basis upon which to establish such a creature is delusional, at best. My point about the perpetrators of the beheading stand. These folks, at least, need to be cast into the deepest, darkest cell available and left there to rot. By the way, my opinion is much the same for those that beat Iraqui prisoners to death and then posed with the bodies. I do not believe that this is what the majority, or even a significant minority of US or British troops are about. My basis for this comes from another time when I was aware of troops pointing M16's at those who sought to commit atrocities. These same troops refused orders to do so. It is constructive to remember that troops are usually 18 to 22 year old kids, who a year before were playing football on Friday nights. They are cast into a situation of unimaginable horror to all but those who have experienced it. It is up to senior non coms and officers to establish the protocols and conditions which allow these young people to maintain a sense of honor and civilized behaviour. It requires a sense of values on the part of the Senior levels of the command structure. That is what I see missing here. And it is why, if there is any justice left in the US system, the most senior people will take the fall for what is happening. May they rot. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST,still-frozen caveman Date: 14 May 04 - 11:15 AM "My understanding is that the world leaders DID believe he had/was trying to develop the weapons, there just wasn't enough hard evidence to support it." Q: And why would world leaders believe something for which there was no hard evidence? A: Because for moths they were relentlessly fed sexed-up intelligence and outright lies by the "leader of the free world". Remember how all the right-wing commentators demanded that the anti-war folks apologize after we "won" the war in Iraq (even though no one as anti-war because they thought we would lose)? Quite the contrary, many were anti-war because we believed that a)there was no evidence that Iraq had weapons that presented an direct or immediate threat to the US, and b) there's more than a little hypocrisy in an invasion of a country who MIGHT (despite the lack of hard evidence) have WMDs by a country who has more WMDs than the rest of the world combined. Still no evidence of WMDs. In fact, the hunt has been abandoned hasn't it? Shall WE now demand apologies? And, for the record, I believe the killing of Nick Berg was a hideous atrocity. I hope that we Americans are better than that. I hope our leaders are better than that. I will not feel that we have won if we BECOME that to win. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Homeless Date: 14 May 04 - 12:03 PM I usually avoid threads like this, and after reading the first half of this one I remember why. I see a whole lot of specific *words* being slung around with what appears to me (and I may be wrong) little to no thought behind them. What is a "terrorist"? Someone who fights for a cause? Someone who uses tactics other than the ones that your side uses? IOW, a guerrilla? Like the American Revolution's Minutemen? "Subhuman", "fanatic", "perpetrator". It's really easy to justify eradicating someone who isn't as good as you, isn't it? "Kidnap" So if I ever get arrested, I can charge the police with kidnapping? "Innocent man". Hoo-boy, this is a good one. How many of you personally knew Berg? Do you have proof that he was just dumb and there on his own, rather than having any military or political connections? I'm not claiming this guy was a CIA spook, but I will say that the little bit of information we get thru the media is always watered down, filtered, and always slanted to get a reaction. And that is after it goes thru the government filters. Did his executioners have reason to believe he was a spy or merc? None of this necessarily reflects my opinion, but is only meant to get everyone to think a little bit, and question themselves about how much they *know* vs how much is repeated propaganda. I will state one opinion tho. My thoughts on the videotaping of the beheading. There have been lots of suggestions about the tape - it was barbaric, meant to stir up hostility, etc. I suggest that it was intended at a statement of strength of commitment. If I were in the position of defending my home, I would most definitely want the invaders to know that I was not playing a game and that I intended to be rid of them and damn the cost. I would hope that if they were to realize that they would have to genocide the 'natives', they would decide the gains were not worth the effort and leave. I admit I've not seen the video or stills, but have heard that the process did not go smoothly, i.e. it was "barbaric". How many of you have ever started something only to find it didn't go as planned? Do you think these masked men do this on a regular basis, or was this possibly the first time? And they found it wasn't as easy as expected? If you think I'm wrong on this, I want you to try something. We've probably all heard of people breaking bottles to use as weapons, either for bar fights, prison riots or whatever. In the movies it's so easy - just grab it by the neck and smack it on any convenient table or head and get a nice pointed weapon. I propose you get a wine or beer bottle, take it outside and break it like they do in the movies. Let me know if anyone breaks it on the first try. Oh, I would strongly suggest you wear heavy gloves when doing this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Big Mick Date: 14 May 04 - 12:18 PM Homeless, get real, will ya? If I were under immediate threat for my life, an armed intruder in my home for example, I would become a deadly killer with any weapon available. That is decidely different, extending your example, to if I had captured the perp, handcuffed him/her, set up a video camera, and taped myself stating why I was doing this and then cutting off his/her head while s/he screams their life away. Yours is an example of trying to alibi your position using ridiculous examples. I agree that terrorism is usually a sign of an overwhelmed and under weaponed group using whatever means available. I agree that the US leadership is altogether to damn willing to excuse the civilian collateral killings. I agree that the Iraqui's have a right to the government of their choosing. But there is no, I repeat - NO, excuse for this execution or the manner in which it was done. But ... there is also no excuse for trying to use this execution to take the heat off our transgressions there. What has been done in the prisons, and we have yet to hear the worst, needs to be dealt with swiftly and surely. All the way up the line. This person is a savage killer. He needs to be treated as such. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Big Mick Date: 14 May 04 - 12:21 PM And by the way. Those that suggest the possibility that this was a setup by the US powers that be to take the heat off, is the best example that I have ever seen of the anti US bias by some here. There is no basis for the implication and it is irresponsible. Isn't it bad enough that we have to deal with this tragic war? There is no need to suggest these things. The facts are plenty enough to fuel conviction. When you use this stupid tactic, you marginalize yourselves to any reasonable person. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST Date: 14 May 04 - 04:48 PM All you two faced assholes that are complaining about what the Iraqis did would be talking out the other face if Iraq invaded us like we did them and an American cut off one of their heads. We should not be there in the first place. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 14 May 04 - 05:10 PM "Q: And why would world leaders believe something for which there was no hard evidence? A: Because for moths they were relentlessly fed sexed-up intelligence and outright lies by the "leader of the free world"." Try years instead of months (you meant "months," right?)- apparently they believed it from Clinton too. Bill Clinton's on record saying he certainly believed it. Where did he get his intelligence? The Saddam thing was going on long before W took office. Anyhow, Saddam's not a complete idiot; and while no one's yet found any WMDs (although they did find fighter jets buried in the desert), they have found evidence that research was taking place. Prohibition-era law enforcement believed Al Capone was behind a lot of stuff, but they had no hard proof of his involvement in murder, bootlegging, organized crime, etc. He was tried and convicted for income tax evasion. Maybe not a great analogy, but it's the best I could think of at the moment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 May 04 - 05:20 PM The sad thing is that, while I don't actually think this was a put up job by agents of the US administration, I wouldn't actually be that astonished if it turned out it was. That's not anti-US bias, it's a recognition of the fact that dirty tricks can get quite remarkably dirty. I see that Hamas has now also denounced it, as well as Hezbollah. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Nerd Date: 14 May 04 - 05:29 PM KimC, I quote you: I am confused about the Al Qaeda/Iraq connection/non-connection. Now I quote me: This is what I meant earlier when I suggested you were a victim of US Government Propaganda. It was not intended as a slur on you, just as an observation that their attempts to confuse you have succeeded. The quote from you was what I was referring to in the one from me. You had already said you were confused. I agree that the media bear some of the responsibility for this, by the way. They report leaked information uncritically, and much of it is now coming from our government, so they act as a propaganda machine. I'm glad you didn't think the war was retaliation for 9-11. Unfortunately, in my opinion the violation of UN resolutions was another silly excuse. Why is the UN wise enough to create resolutions, but not wise enough to choose how it enforces them? Logically, either the UN is ineffectual, in which case their resolutions are meaningless, or they are effective, in which case THEY can decide when to send peacekeepers. Anything else is Bush trying to have his cake and eat it too. Also, other countries are in violation of various UN resolutions, including Turkey, to whom we gave billions of dollars in graft so they would help us in this war, and Israel, whom I generally support but whose government now is frightening and needs to go. As for your statement that "It seems like I remember Hillary Clinton saying on Meet the Press or something, that during the Clinton administration, a good portion of the UN, as well as herself AND her husband, believed Hussein had WMDs or was trying to get them," that's not specific enough for even an unfrozen caveman lawyer, let alone a real one. You subsequent statement that "Bill Clinton's on record saying he certainly believed it" is no better. There is no controversy as to whether Saddam EVER had WMD during the last fourteen years (since Clinton took office). We know that he did. Clinton was president for the eight years directly after the first Gulf War. We knew SH had WMD at the end of that war, so he obviously had them during part of Clinton's presidency. The point was that inspectors had been visiting Iraq, and huge amounts of WMD were confirmed as having been destroyed during all of Clinton's and Bush II's presidencies. So the situation in 2002 was not the same as it had been at whatever time Clinton got his intelligence. There WERE a small amount of weapons that the inspectors classed as "unaccounted for." This does NOT necessarily mean they were stockpiled somewhere, it could simply be that records of their destruction were not kept scrupulously enough. This is what inspectors (who despite Bush's weird blunder/lie, WERE let into Iraq) were there for. Of the inspectors themselves, Hans Blix did not think it was time for war, and Scott Ritter spoke out quite forcefully against it. The American regime used weapons inspectors' reports as a justification for ignoring weapons inspectors' recommendations, and UN resolutions as a justification for ignoring the UN's wishes. Finally, a great example of conservative think-tank spin is the idea of "weapons of mass destruction" itself. It's so general as to be nearly meaningless, because so many products and so many labs could be used to create chemical weapons. In your house you have products that could be used to create chemical weapons, like Chlorine bleach. So when we are told that a country has "WMD related program activities" it is utterly meaningless; if you have bleach and a stove, you can be accused of that. But people still use the phrase as if it means something. Of course, we have drifted a good deal from the main topic here, which was that a Jordanian terrorist commited a horrible atrocity with a knife. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Wolfgang Date: 14 May 04 - 05:34 PM On one of the back pages of my newspaper of today was this little item (I translate it in full lenght: 600 Christians killed in Nigeria According to church officials, seemingly as an act of retaliation Muslim youths have killed 500 to 600 Christians in the town of Kano in the North of Nigeria. "Close to 600 people have been killed and 12 churches have been burnt down", a spokesman of the Christian Union of Nigeria declared on Thursday. Armoured with knives and clubs, Muslim youths have chased Christians who are in the minority in this region. (End of quote) Well, it was Africa, but it could have been somewhere else, the murderers in this case were Muslims, but it could have been Christians just as well. I don't post this to tell you that one particular death is irrelevant compared to so many. I post it for I guess my initial reaction was similar to yours and this reaction tells a lot about our biases. At first I just read on. I had read a long article about Rumsfeld in Iraq, another about Nick Berg, one more about proven and suspected American crimes in Iraq, so this was just another short notice. Then I stopped: 600 killed with knives and clubs? Many of these murders must have looked similar to, or worse than the murder of Nick Berg. Two differences spring to mind: (1) No pictures available from Nigeria (at least not to me) (2) Neither the victims nor the perpetrators are Westerners Twelve churches burnt, but one of the three big TV news of today was one mosque probably damaged by American fire. The focus of attention is completely on what happens to or by the Western nations. Even those here who blame the USA wherever they can (sorry, feel they have to) dosplay the same bias. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: beardedbruce Date: 14 May 04 - 05:39 PM True, Wolfgang. IMO, the lack of action in Rwanda will be a greater shame to the Western powers than anything we do, or don't do in the Middle East. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Nerd Date: 14 May 04 - 05:41 PM Like Big Mick, I think it's exceedingly unlikely the beheading was orchestrated by the US. Those who ordered it would need an operative who could convincingly be mistaken for a known Arab terrorist, who was willing to cut another man's head off with a knife, and whom they could trust to maintain complete secrecy about it afterward. Quite apart from how dirty they're willing to get, would they gamble their careers on such a person, if they didn't have to? This is quite a trick to be pulling out of their asses, and it could easily backfire on them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 14 May 04 - 05:51 PM Fair enough, Nerd. Thanks for your enlightening post. I am at least a little less confused now. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 May 04 - 06:57 PM I agree with Nerd there, and that's why I think it unlikely that it's a put-up job - not because I think there could never be elements within the regime that might be capable of sinking to that level. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: CarolC Date: 14 May 04 - 07:20 PM Never boring, bengi. What's your point? Wolfgang, oddly enough, just a little while ago I was reading the following article from Reuters. I was thinking to myself as I read it, that it reminded me a bit of a thread someone posted sometime in the last few months about a similar sort of conflict in Sudan. In that thread, someone said the reason the US hasn't done anything to help is because there isn't any oil in Sudan. I thought that was worth checking out, and when I did, I discovered that Sudan does indeed have oil, and that the oil is a big part of the basis for the problems there. So after reading the article by Reuters about what's going on in Nigeria, I did a search and discovered that Nigeria is one of the world's leading oil producers. Is this a coincidence? I don't know. My gut says maybe not. Nigerian Muslims Recount Horror of Attack Excerpt: "YELWA, Nigeria (Reuters) - Hafsat Garba wept as she recounted how heavily armed Christian militiamen, stripped to the waist and wearing charms on their arms, invaded her home town. The 36-year-old mother of two was one of hundreds of Muslim women abducted by the warriors during a two-day assault on the central Nigerian town of Yelwa in which hundreds were killed." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Pogo Date: 14 May 04 - 07:49 PM " The murder of this young man was a calculated action intended to achieve certain effects. Quite what these effects are intended to be is uncertain. " Can't remember who said this. But I believe we've seen the effects it intended played out right in this thread. That's all... :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: GUEST,petr Date: 14 May 04 - 08:11 PM cnn did report a bizarre connection with the unfortunate Berg and Moussaoui (the so-called 20th hijacker) apparently on a bus or something Moussaoui & Berg sat next to each other. And somehow Moussaoui and Berg shared the same password to some account. the action intended is to instill terror. (more than anything it backfired, as it takes attention away from the Abu Graib prisoner abuse. It certainly does little to promote their cause except perhaps with the most diehard islamic extremists. Even Hamas and Hizbollah condemn it. whatever you want to call the terrorists that murdered Berg, - they were undeniably cowards(why not take off the headgear?) and racists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: dianavan Date: 14 May 04 - 09:23 PM "The sad thing is that, while I don't actually think this was a put up job by agents of the US administration, I wouldn't actually be that astonished if it turned out it was. That's not anti-US bias, it's a recognition of the fact that dirty tricks can get quite remarkably dirty." Thanks. I too, do not actually believe it was set-up but I also believe that the admin. is putting their own spin on it. The murderer was a Jordanian not AQ. Why didn't the Americans give Berg safe passage and what was the connection between Berg and Moussaoui? I doubt if we will ever get the straight information on this and I also doubt if we will ever punish those responsible for the torture of Iraqi prisoners. Wasn't it Rumsfeld who in 2002 stated that these were not actually POWS and that the same rules did not apply? What kind of a message was that to give to the troops. He left it pretty wide open didn't he. The trouble with the Bush admin. is that they do not actually know their enemy. They chased Bin Laden (AQ) and bombed Afghanistan in the process. Then they decided to blame Saddam (not AQ) and bombed the Iraqis. Now I hear rumours about Syria being on their hit list. I have also read statements that the tribal differences in Iraq are less than the differences between Protestant and Catholics. Why is it that we are alway being told that U.S. has to be bring democracy to Iraq? The Iraqi people want the U.S. to go home. They are not interested in Christian missionaries either. A Jordanian terrorist beheaded a U.S. businessman who was there fair and square? I doubt it. I think people should consider all of the angles. There is nothing wrong with questions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: S O P Date: 14 May 04 - 10:24 PM Isn't Nigeria where there was a series of riots and loss of life over a statement on the internet regarding Mohamed and the Miss World Pageant. Want to work that in with oil conspiracy? As far as the U.S. committing the Berg atrocity, some people will say anything, and there are some people who will believe it. How about that one about who was REALLY responsible for piloting two airliners into the Twin Towers, a third into the Pentagon, and a fourth into the ground? Who's it going to be this week? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 14 May 04 - 10:28 PM Apparently the Jordanian murderer has AQ associations. At least that's what I've understood from the news reports, which may or may not be accurate. I also read that Berg was offered a flight back to the US and refused. Again, that may or may not be accurate. Drudge has links to several stories regarding Berg's murder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 14 May 04 - 10:34 PM This story describes al-Zarqawi as a "senior Al-Qaida operative." 'Course it's from yesterday, so it's probably old news. Click here |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: CarolC Date: 14 May 04 - 10:41 PM S O P, in the case of Sudan, it has been clearly established that oil is a big part of the problem. There is a lot of conflict about who the beneficiaries of oil revenues should be, and a lot of people are being displaced from their homes so that oil can be drilled for in those locations. I haven't spent enough time looking into the Nigeria situation to be able to say if oil is connected in the same way, but it won't surprise me if it is. The religious issues are certainly a part of what is causing the violence, but in the case of Sudan, where the conflict is also between Muslims and Christians, oil is at least as much of the problem as religion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: DonMeixner Date: 14 May 04 - 10:50 PM Dianavan, Here I am breaking into this mess again. Re: Safe passage, depending on who you choose to believe Brerg was offered safe passage but refused it. Others claim it was otherwise. I doubt any of us has anyway to know for sure. Everyone, And this is the crux of the mater for much of the right versus left, convervative versus liberal debates. Who do you believe when listening to news? Both sides spin it all over the place so I don't think either point of view is adequately informed and neither sides leaders or directors can lie straight in bed. And for a bunch of school teachers, students, Doctors, Moms and Dads, and every walk of life types in this forum we are a pretty remakable bunch of skilled political scientists who have all the facts at hand. Don |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: S O P Date: 14 May 04 - 11:54 PM The one thing we all believe is the video. And the body. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 15 May 04 - 05:44 AM Don, you beat me to it! Lots of 'expert' opinions in here, being made by non-experts who've taken their lead from whichever piece of political hyperbole and mileage-making rings their chimes. We're being fed crap daily - how do any of us know who's lying and who isn't? I certainly don't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: DonMeixner Date: 15 May 04 - 07:39 AM "The crux of the mater" Jeepers is that Freudian? Will I ever spell czech? Don |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 15 May 04 - 09:55 AM Don, that's always been my problem with the news. I don't know what to believe because there's too many different things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 May 04 - 02:24 PM The one thing that is clear from this whole war is that "the experts" are not very well informed either. Even when they are actually trying to tell the truth, they persistently get it wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Kim C Date: 15 May 04 - 03:19 PM Well, that's the other thing. The only real conclusions I've been able to make are: 1)Nick Berg is dead and 2) nobody seems to know exactly what's going on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: dianavan Date: 15 May 04 - 04:06 PM Fact #1 - It was not an Iraqi who did the beheading Fact #2 - Berg's dad blames the Bush admin and Rumsfeld Fact #3 - The administration lied about detaining Nick Berg ...and for those of you who choose to continue the propaganda, scratch the surface and you will find much, much more. Read this and see if you still believe what the U.S. has to say about Nick Berg or anything else about what they're doing in Iraq. Forgive my clumsiness. I am just learning how to use the blue clicky. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Ebbie Date: 15 May 04 - 04:34 PM Here's what I get: "Due to technical problems you can not see TehranTimes at the moment.Please try again later." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: DonMeixner Date: 15 May 04 - 04:43 PM Ebbie, I just this minute read the article in the Tehran Times. Diana, I guess this still begs my point. Why is this article anymore accurate or complete than one from The New York Times or The Christian Science Monitor. And I concur with you and have no doubts on facts 1 and 2. I'm not sure about 3 for reasons of the very question I am asking. Don |
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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 15 May 04 - 05:07 PM I'm not sure about Dianavan's 'Fact' no. 1 either Don - has anyone confessed to being the individual who perpetrated the killing? We didn't see his face, and we could be being lied to again. Oh what a tangled web we weave............... |
