Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]


BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans

Wolfgang 14 May 04 - 05:34 PM
Nerd 14 May 04 - 05:29 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 May 04 - 05:20 PM
Kim C 14 May 04 - 05:10 PM
GUEST 14 May 04 - 04:48 PM
Big Mick 14 May 04 - 12:21 PM
Big Mick 14 May 04 - 12:18 PM
Homeless 14 May 04 - 12:03 PM
GUEST,still-frozen caveman 14 May 04 - 11:15 AM
Big Mick 14 May 04 - 11:08 AM
Kim C 14 May 04 - 09:38 AM
barrygeo 14 May 04 - 08:19 AM
GUEST 14 May 04 - 08:16 AM
GUEST,Teribus 14 May 04 - 08:05 AM
GUEST 14 May 04 - 07:51 AM
SueB 14 May 04 - 03:05 AM
GUEST,Teribus 14 May 04 - 02:11 AM
Jim McCallan 14 May 04 - 01:55 AM
dianavan 14 May 04 - 01:19 AM
Jim McCallan 14 May 04 - 12:21 AM
dianavan 13 May 04 - 11:45 PM
Bobert 13 May 04 - 10:23 PM
GUEST 13 May 04 - 10:07 PM
Kim C 13 May 04 - 10:06 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 13 May 04 - 09:31 PM
GUEST,petr 13 May 04 - 08:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 May 04 - 07:10 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 13 May 04 - 05:51 PM
Kim C 13 May 04 - 05:46 PM
The Stage Manager 13 May 04 - 05:38 PM
Lepus Rex 13 May 04 - 05:16 PM
Kim C 13 May 04 - 04:45 PM
Ebbie 13 May 04 - 04:26 PM
Nerd 13 May 04 - 04:00 PM
Kim C 13 May 04 - 03:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 May 04 - 02:33 PM
GUEST,Larry K 13 May 04 - 02:32 PM
M.Ted 13 May 04 - 02:31 PM
Once Famous 13 May 04 - 02:30 PM
Lepus Rex 13 May 04 - 02:20 PM
Big Mick 13 May 04 - 02:12 PM
Kim C 13 May 04 - 01:19 PM
Once Famous 13 May 04 - 12:59 PM
Nerd 13 May 04 - 12:52 PM
Nerd 13 May 04 - 12:42 PM
Kim C 13 May 04 - 12:16 PM
Kim C 13 May 04 - 12:09 PM
Nerd 13 May 04 - 11:23 AM
S O P 13 May 04 - 11:15 AM
Bobert 13 May 04 - 10:59 AM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 May 04 - 05:34 PM

On one of the back pages of my newspaper of today was this little item (I translate it in full lenght:

600 Christians killed in Nigeria

According to church officials, seemingly as an act of retaliation Muslim youths have killed 500 to 600 Christians in the town of Kano in the North of Nigeria. "Close to 600 people have been killed and 12 churches have been burnt down", a spokesman of the Christian Union of Nigeria declared on Thursday. Armoured with knives and clubs, Muslim youths have chased Christians who are in the minority in this region. (End of quote)

Well, it was Africa, but it could have been somewhere else, the murderers in this case were Muslims, but it could have been Christians just as well. I don't post this to tell you that one particular death is irrelevant compared to so many. I post it for I guess my initial reaction was similar to yours and this reaction tells a lot about our biases.

At first I just read on. I had read a long article about Rumsfeld in Iraq, another about Nick Berg, one more about proven and suspected American crimes in Iraq, so this was just another short notice.

Then I stopped: 600 killed with knives and clubs? Many of these murders must have looked similar to, or worse than the murder of Nick Berg. Two differences spring to mind:
(1) No pictures available from Nigeria (at least not to me)
(2) Neither the victims nor the perpetrators are Westerners

Twelve churches burnt, but one of the three big TV news of today was one mosque probably damaged by American fire. The focus of attention is completely on what happens to or by the Western nations. Even those here who blame the USA wherever they can (sorry, feel they have to) dosplay the same bias.

Wolfgang


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 14 May 04 - 05:29 PM

KimC, I quote you:

I am confused about the Al Qaeda/Iraq connection/non-connection.

Now I quote me:

This is what I meant earlier when I suggested you were a victim of US Government Propaganda. It was not intended as a slur on you, just as an observation that their attempts to confuse you have succeeded.

The quote from you was what I was referring to in the one from me. You had already said you were confused.

I agree that the media bear some of the responsibility for this, by the way. They report leaked information uncritically, and much of it is now coming from our government, so they act as a propaganda machine.

I'm glad you didn't think the war was retaliation for 9-11. Unfortunately, in my opinion the violation of UN resolutions was another silly excuse. Why is the UN wise enough to create resolutions, but not wise enough to choose how it enforces them? Logically, either the UN is ineffectual, in which case their resolutions are meaningless, or they are effective, in which case THEY can decide when to send peacekeepers. Anything else is Bush trying to have his cake and eat it too. Also, other countries are in violation of various UN resolutions, including Turkey, to whom we gave billions of dollars in graft so they would help us in this war, and Israel, whom I generally support but whose government now is frightening and needs to go.

As for your statement that "It seems like I remember Hillary Clinton saying on Meet the Press or something, that during the Clinton administration, a good portion of the UN, as well as herself AND her husband, believed Hussein had WMDs or was trying to get them," that's not specific enough for even an unfrozen caveman lawyer, let alone a real one. You subsequent statement that "Bill Clinton's on record saying he certainly believed it" is no better. There is no controversy as to whether Saddam EVER had WMD during the last fourteen years (since Clinton took office). We know that he did. Clinton was president for the eight years directly after the first Gulf War. We knew SH had WMD at the end of that war, so he obviously had them during part of Clinton's presidency. The point was that inspectors had been visiting Iraq, and huge amounts of WMD were confirmed as having been destroyed during all of Clinton's and Bush II's presidencies. So the situation in 2002 was not the same as it had been at whatever time Clinton got his intelligence.

There WERE a small amount of weapons that the inspectors classed as "unaccounted for." This does NOT necessarily mean they were stockpiled somewhere, it could simply be that records of their destruction were not kept scrupulously enough. This is what inspectors (who despite Bush's weird blunder/lie, WERE let into Iraq) were there for. Of the inspectors themselves, Hans Blix did not think it was time for war, and Scott Ritter spoke out quite forcefully against it. The American regime used weapons inspectors' reports as a justification for ignoring weapons inspectors' recommendations, and UN resolutions as a justification for ignoring the UN's wishes.

Finally, a great example of conservative think-tank spin is the idea of "weapons of mass destruction" itself. It's so general as to be nearly meaningless, because so many products and so many labs could be used to create chemical weapons. In your house you have products that could be used to create chemical weapons, like Chlorine bleach. So when we are told that a country has "WMD related program activities" it is utterly meaningless; if you have bleach and a stove, you can be accused of that. But people still use the phrase as if it means something.

Of course, we have drifted a good deal from the main topic here, which was that a Jordanian terrorist commited a horrible atrocity with a knife.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 04 - 05:20 PM

The sad thing is that, while I don't actually think this was a put up job by agents of the US administration, I wouldn't actually be that astonished if it turned out it was. That's not anti-US bias, it's a recognition of the fact that dirty tricks can get quite remarkably dirty.

I see that Hamas has now also denounced it, as well as Hezbollah.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 14 May 04 - 05:10 PM

"Q: And why would world leaders believe something for which there was no hard evidence?

A: Because for moths they were relentlessly fed sexed-up intelligence and outright lies by the "leader of the free world"."


Try years instead of months (you meant "months," right?)- apparently they believed it from Clinton too. Bill Clinton's on record saying he certainly believed it. Where did he get his intelligence? The Saddam thing was going on long before W took office. Anyhow, Saddam's not a complete idiot; and while no one's yet found any WMDs (although they did find fighter jets buried in the desert), they have found evidence that research was taking place.

Prohibition-era law enforcement believed Al Capone was behind a lot of stuff, but they had no hard proof of his involvement in murder, bootlegging, organized crime, etc. He was tried and convicted for income tax evasion. Maybe not a great analogy, but it's the best I could think of at the moment.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 04 - 04:48 PM

All you two faced assholes that are complaining about what the Iraqis did would be talking out the other face if Iraq invaded us like we did them and an American cut off one of their heads. We should not be there in the first place.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 May 04 - 12:21 PM

And by the way. Those that suggest the possibility that this was a setup by the US powers that be to take the heat off, is the best example that I have ever seen of the anti US bias by some here. There is no basis for the implication and it is irresponsible. Isn't it bad enough that we have to deal with this tragic war? There is no need to suggest these things. The facts are plenty enough to fuel conviction. When you use this stupid tactic, you marginalize yourselves to any reasonable person.

Mick


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 May 04 - 12:18 PM

Homeless, get real, will ya? If I were under immediate threat for my life, an armed intruder in my home for example, I would become a deadly killer with any weapon available. That is decidely different, extending your example, to if I had captured the perp, handcuffed him/her, set up a video camera, and taped myself stating why I was doing this and then cutting off his/her head while s/he screams their life away. Yours is an example of trying to alibi your position using ridiculous examples. I agree that terrorism is usually a sign of an overwhelmed and under weaponed group using whatever means available. I agree that the US leadership is altogether to damn willing to excuse the civilian collateral killings. I agree that the Iraqui's have a right to the government of their choosing. But there is no, I repeat - NO, excuse for this execution or the manner in which it was done.

But ... there is also no excuse for trying to use this execution to take the heat off our transgressions there. What has been done in the prisons, and we have yet to hear the worst, needs to be dealt with swiftly and surely. All the way up the line.

This person is a savage killer. He needs to be treated as such.

Mick


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Homeless
Date: 14 May 04 - 12:03 PM

I usually avoid threads like this, and after reading the first half of this one I remember why. I see a whole lot of specific *words* being slung around with what appears to me (and I may be wrong) little to no thought behind them.
What is a "terrorist"? Someone who fights for a cause? Someone who uses tactics other than the ones that your side uses? IOW, a guerrilla? Like the American Revolution's Minutemen?
"Subhuman", "fanatic", "perpetrator". It's really easy to justify eradicating someone who isn't as good as you, isn't it?
"Kidnap" So if I ever get arrested, I can charge the police with kidnapping?
"Innocent man". Hoo-boy, this is a good one. How many of you personally knew Berg? Do you have proof that he was just dumb and there on his own, rather than having any military or political connections? I'm not claiming this guy was a CIA spook, but I will say that the little bit of information we get thru the media is always watered down, filtered, and always slanted to get a reaction. And that is after it goes thru the government filters. Did his executioners have reason to believe he was a spy or merc?

None of this necessarily reflects my opinion, but is only meant to get everyone to think a little bit, and question themselves about how much they *know* vs how much is repeated propaganda.

I will state one opinion tho. My thoughts on the videotaping of the beheading. There have been lots of suggestions about the tape - it was barbaric, meant to stir up hostility, etc. I suggest that it was intended at a statement of strength of commitment. If I were in the position of defending my home, I would most definitely want the invaders to know that I was not playing a game and that I intended to be rid of them and damn the cost. I would hope that if they were to realize that they would have to genocide the 'natives', they would decide the gains were not worth the effort and leave.

I admit I've not seen the video or stills, but have heard that the process did not go smoothly, i.e. it was "barbaric". How many of you have ever started something only to find it didn't go as planned? Do you think these masked men do this on a regular basis, or was this possibly the first time? And they found it wasn't as easy as expected? If you think I'm wrong on this, I want you to try something. We've probably all heard of people breaking bottles to use as weapons, either for bar fights, prison riots or whatever. In the movies it's so easy - just grab it by the neck and smack it on any convenient table or head and get a nice pointed weapon. I propose you get a wine or beer bottle, take it outside and break it like they do in the movies. Let me know if anyone breaks it on the first try. Oh, I would strongly suggest you wear heavy gloves when doing this.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,still-frozen caveman
Date: 14 May 04 - 11:15 AM

"My understanding is that the world leaders DID believe he had/was trying to develop the weapons, there just wasn't enough hard evidence to support it."

Q: And why would world leaders believe something for which there was no hard evidence?

A: Because for moths they were relentlessly fed sexed-up intelligence and outright lies by the "leader of the free world".

Remember how all the right-wing commentators demanded that the anti-war folks apologize after we "won" the war in Iraq (even though no one as anti-war because they thought we would lose)? Quite the contrary, many were anti-war because we believed that a)there was no evidence that Iraq had weapons that presented an direct or immediate threat to the US, and b) there's more than a little hypocrisy in an invasion of a country who MIGHT (despite the lack of hard evidence) have WMDs by a country who has more WMDs than the rest of the world combined. Still no evidence of WMDs. In fact, the hunt has been abandoned hasn't it? Shall WE now demand apologies?

And, for the record, I believe the killing of Nick Berg was a hideous atrocity. I hope that we Americans are better than that. I hope our leaders are better than that. I will not feel that we have won if we BECOME that to win.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 May 04 - 11:08 AM

Mike, your post was a well reasoned explanation, and in theory I can buy into it. But I must point out that when some are so bereft of moral values that they can commit this type of brutally savage act, they are usually beyond redemption. I agree totally that, in the main, we must find common ground with the insurgents. It is, after all, their country. Bush's attempts to create some sort of western democracy in a country that has no basis upon which to establish such a creature is delusional, at best. My point about the perpetrators of the beheading stand. These folks, at least, need to be cast into the deepest, darkest cell available and left there to rot. By the way, my opinion is much the same for those that beat Iraqui prisoners to death and then posed with the bodies. I do not believe that this is what the majority, or even a significant minority of US or British troops are about. My basis for this comes from another time when I was aware of troops pointing M16's at those who sought to commit atrocities. These same troops refused orders to do so.

It is constructive to remember that troops are usually 18 to 22 year old kids, who a year before were playing football on Friday nights. They are cast into a situation of unimaginable horror to all but those who have experienced it. It is up to senior non coms and officers to establish the protocols and conditions which allow these young people to maintain a sense of honor and civilized behaviour. It requires a sense of values on the part of the Senior levels of the command structure. That is what I see missing here. And it is why, if there is any justice left in the US system, the most senior people will take the fall for what is happening. May they rot.

Mick


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 14 May 04 - 09:38 AM

Thanks barrygeo.

It seems like I remember Hillary Clinton saying on Meet the Press or something, that during the Clinton administration, a good portion of the UN, as well as herself AND her husband, believed Hussein had WMDs or was trying to get them. My understanding is that the world leaders DID believe he had/was trying to develop the weapons, there just wasn't enough hard evidence to support it.

But then again, I'm just an unfrozen caveman.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: barrygeo
Date: 14 May 04 - 08:19 AM

Kim C
A couple of comments

"I thought it was retaliation for the last 12 years that Saddam Hussein flouted all the UN resolutions he said he would keep"

My recollection is that weapons of mass destruction and a real and immediate threat was the reason for the war. If memory serves me the UN refused to sanction the war. If all UN resolutions were enforced as vigourously by the US perhaps the region would be less unstable. More importantly it now appears that intelligence reports were sexed up (certainly in the UK) to justify the war.

"Maybe he was just pulling a good bluff to look like a big man in front of his supporters."

In my limited experience of the Arab world (as distinct from the muslim world) saving face with one's peers in a major factor. If Saddam had failed to face down the US he would have been finished anyway because of perceived humiliation in the eyes of other Arabs.
Remember comical Alli trying to save face by claiming the US forces were defeated while tanks roled along behind him. He wasn't nuts he was trying to save face.

Fionn, isn't the IRA still around?
The IRA is still around but the violence has been greatly reduced. As long as they(IRA) are being offered reasonable alternatives the popular support for violence dissappears. No terrorist group can survive without a level of popular support to hide them and feed them. In ireland it is looking like we are moving towards the end game and that the most extreme unionists will be able to do business with the most extreme nationalists once violence and the threat of violence is removed from the equation. Words have acheived more in ten years than the entire Brithish army and intelligence agencies could in 30 years.

Violence begets Violence - dialogue is the only solution.
Both Bush and Blair proclaim themselves as Christians doing their Christian duty - they must read a different version of the Bible than mine.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 04 - 08:16 AM

I would never claim that the voice analysts, or any analysts working for the CIA, are "unimpeachable" because in the US at least, both the FBI and the CIA are largely seen as the Keystone Cops.

I'm with Senator John McCain (the Washington Post did a long article on him this week). He said he can't figure out for the life of him how it is that George Tenet still has his job at CIA. He, like me, figures he must have some real damaging evidence against Bush, et al. he is using against them. Maybe Shrub I left some personal items behind when he left...

And at the end of the day, if you don't have the information, you shouldn't make it up and use it for propaganda, because it will always come back and bite you in the ass. Which keeps happening with Bush, et al, but we haven't seen it really hurt them at this point. Sure Bush is plummeting in the polls. Sure most Democrats will vote for Kerry only because he isn't Bush, not because he would make a good president. Sure we're screwed either way, come November.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 14 May 04 - 08:05 AM

GUEST 14 May 04 - 07:51 AM,

So when voice analysts state that whatever message comes across from Osama bin Laden, they are unimpeachable sources.

When same voice analysts state that the message on the audio track of the Berg execution is the voice of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, they are talking rubbish and totally unreliable.

Whatever.....

At the end of the day you can only run with the information you have.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 04 - 07:51 AM

al-Zarqawi is Jordanian (you see KimC, the nationality of the killers does matter--if it were Iraqi insurgents, US troops truly would be screwed).

Unfortunately, it is the one source of information that lacks credibility, the Bush administration, that is telling us who the man behind the scarf is. Is it al-Zarqawil because the CIA says so? How credible is the US CIA? US military intelligence? The Pentagon?

Answer: not credible at all.

For quite some time now, the Bush administration has been claiming that al-Zarqawi is the cause of all our Iraqi woes, and not Iraqi insurgents. Except that information has turned out to be wrong too. It is clear the vast majority of unrest and violence is coming from anti-occupation Iraqi resistance fighters. But the Bush administration refuses to admit that is our greatest problem in Iraq, because it would mean admitting that we won all the battles, but lost the war because of our own racism, arrogance, and superiority complex.

We've got the oil though, and that is why the Bush administration won't be pulling out any time soon. Both Bush and Kerry are saying they want to internationalize the troops and the political process. But neither one of them is saying they will internationalize the oil and all those lucrative "rebuilding" contracts, are they? No sirrreee. The Iraqi spoils of war go to us, and our coalition of the willing to plunder.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: SueB
Date: 14 May 04 - 03:05 AM

Wow! That was the best post from Teribus ever!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 14 May 04 - 02:11 AM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 14 May 04 - 01:55 AM

I alluded to the answer of that question in a parallel thread, here, Diana, and I quoted from this article (can't access it myself now, though; it's a 'subscription' page)

I think however, that whatever 'indepencence' some of these organisations had before the invasion of Iraq, quite a lot of them do now see themselves as part of the larger Bin Laden 'network', insofar as some of their 'short-term' aims are concerned.

Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 14 May 04 - 01:19 AM

Jim - Probably is Abu Musab al-Zarqawi but since when was he linked to AQ? Seems that German Intelligence has linked him to a militant cell of Jordanians who did not want to belong to AQ. So just who does he represent, anyway? Is he just another mercenary for hire?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 14 May 04 - 12:21 AM

I heard this evening that voice analysts have more or less concluded that the voice on the tape is indeed that of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 13 May 04 - 11:45 PM

Kim C - "somehow he himself had most of the world leaders believing he was hiding something". Not actually. Most of the world leaders said there was no proof and therefore no reason. Bush decided to "go it alone." That is not most of the world leaders.

I agree with guest - we still do not know who was behind the scarves.

For all we know, it was set-up to take the heat off the Bush admin. and justify further aggression.

Thank-you Fionn for enlightening all of us.

The only way to neutralize terrorism is to listen to their grievances and reach a compromise. Every time you kill a terrorist, you create five more to take the place.

The Iraqi people are innocent victims of two war lords - Bush and Saddam. One is no better than the other.

Lepus Rex - Martin can't dance.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 04 - 10:23 PM

You all are trying to be too clever about this... When Bush said "Bring it on" there were folks willing and capable of doing just that. His littel cowboy sideshow has now come home to haunt him... Like who couldn't see that this was going to happen? No, not specifics but something... It seems to me that Bush and company think the only way that they can stay in power is to provoke other folks to do some pretty bad stuff. Hey, the fact that the US has killed upwards of 20,000 Iraqis is immaterial to Bush and his cronies... Just get the film footage of the killing of one poor American and the 20,000 go away... Hmmmmmm?

What a crock!!!

What a crock...

Yeah, tell the brothers, sisters, parents of any one of the 20,000 'er so Iraqi dead that the only thing on our minds is the death one American! Yeah, go tell 'um. I dare you...

Bobert


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 04 - 10:07 PM

Who,indeed was behind those scarves? That's just it. It could have been anyone.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 13 May 04 - 10:06 PM

Fionn, isn't the IRA still around?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 13 May 04 - 09:31 PM

Cracking post, Bill (the Stage Manager). The bit beginning "I suspect if we all think long and hard enough" comes right to the point. It is DougR's tragedy that he can't or won't do that - possibly because he is now senior in years, which would explain why his shallow thnking is, by and large, tolerated with good grace. I doubt if the same excuse is available to Martin Gibson. I would have devoted a post exclusively to his unpleasant ravings if Lepus (whose posts are not always my cup of tea) had not disposed of his arguments with such clinical efficiency.

Responding to the Stage Manager, Kim said: "Bill, I don't know that anyone has ever neutralized terrorism at all." There are many recent examples. In Northern Ireland, Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, both one-time IRA activists, are now senior politicians. Nelson Mandela, leader of the ANC - once denounced by many in the US and the UK as terrorist commies - became a world statesman.

Likewise Jomo Kenyatta, one-time leader of the Mau Mau insurgency (which when all propaganda has been removed from the equation killed about 35 people in total), who went on to be president of Kenya. Likewise Menachem Begin, a former terrorist by his own account, who eventually signed a peace accord with Anwar Sadat.

Perhaps most instructive of all, extremist Hutus who partipated in Rwanda's genocidal slaughter of 1994, in which atrocities at least as unpleasant as the Berg beheading occurred at a rate of thousans a day (with no exceptions made for women and children), are being released from detention and back into the communities they did so much to destroy, on condition only that they acknowledge their crimes.

To a no-brainer like DougR this will be unfathomable, but to Rwanda's Tutsis (and moderate Hutus), who were on the receiving end of the terror, it offers the only prospect of building harmony and long-term prosperity in a poor country.

Only with the Bush administration have we been introduced to the certainty that terrorists are always wrong, can have no legitimate grievances and can never change their spots.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 13 May 04 - 08:22 PM

the intended effect of this action is actually quite certain.
to instill terror.

the goal along with that is to delay, or discourage reconstruction
in Iraq, by creating fear and instability. This will certainly make people think twice before working there. In the same way that the bombings of the UN headquarters did last year, and the bombings of the Shiites during the religious festival -

although the people who were against the war, are even more against it. And those who supported it use this to show the inhumanity of the enemy.

interesting that Hizbollah, condemned the execution, not only because it doesnt do much to advance the extreme Islamist cause, but the timing of it takes world attention away from the abuses in Abu Ghraib prison.

(which I might add does damage the moral grounds behind the invasion, so to speak the last leg it had to stand on, after the wmds) On the other hand the abuse differs from Saddams 50 daily executions at Abu Ghraib, in orders of magnitude. ANd every country in the area without exception has much worse psyhological and physical torture routinely practiced in ints prisons. A fact rarely mentioned in AL Jazeera.

ironic too, that the methods are to use the tools of globalism against itself - digital cameras and the internet. (as were airliners
and skyscrapers in 911)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 04 - 07:10 PM

"Dehumanise" the enemy, and you start to underestimate them, and that is always a mstake. "Dehumanise" the people who aren't the enemy to start with, and you turn them into the enemy.

The murder of this young man was a calculated action intended to achieve certain effects. Quite what these effects are intended to be is uncertain.

Getting people to see this group as a major player in the confusing war going on in Iraq would presumably have been one of them. Another is surely to ensure that the Americans will respond in a way that makes more people in Iraq resent their presence, and see anybody whomis fighting them as on their side. (Which in fact is very unlikely to be the case, especially when it comes to the kind of people who killed Nicholas Berg.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 13 May 04 - 05:51 PM

An excellent post, Bill.

clint


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 13 May 04 - 05:46 PM

Bill, I don't know that anyone has ever neutralized terrorism at all. Anyhow, that was a really good post.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: The Stage Manager
Date: 13 May 04 - 05:38 PM

I utterly abhor the act of desperate barbarism inflicted upon Nicholas Berg and his family. Nobody should ever have to suffer that way through such an indiscriminate act of savagery. At the same time I do not accept that this act was perpetrated by persons who should be considered as 'subhuman'. I believe the murderers to be both fully human and fully aware of what they were doing.


It has always been my understanding that demonising "the enemy" is a necessity of war. The belief that the enemy is somehow 'subhuman' or in someway 'inferior' is surely a prerequisite (or even an excuse) that enables soldiers to perform their duties with the full support of their governments and countrymen. If we take this view wholeheartedly then there is no act, however abhorrent, that cannot be inflicted on an enemy, and ultimately justified in the name of defence or imposing a 'better' or 'more human' regime.      

I feel we have to resist all attempts at demonisation, and take the view we are all equally human. And because we are all equally human we are all equally capable of these 'subhuman' acts if pushed hard enough and into a corner.   I suspect if we all think long and hard enough we could all identify circumstances in which we might kill another human being, particularly if we felt that we, and our families, were being threatened.

If we take the view that someone is a fanatic, religious or otherwise, and is somehow subhuman, then we must also accept the probability that they view us in the same light, regardless of how loftily we view our own motives, and we therefore have to accept the inevitable consequences of this. I honestly believe this was probably the case with those who perpetrated 9/11 and Berg's murder. They believe America and Americans to be 'subhuman'.

Surely this way lies madness and conflicts that no amount of firepower, brute force, or "Shock & Awe" are going to resolve. I perceive the real Iraq war starting the moment President Bush stood on that aircraft carrier and announced "Mission Accomplished", a remark that I find is sounding ever more hollow and fatuous as events unfold and the body count increases.

Resolution?   I believe it begins with looking the "enemy" straight in the eye and acknowledging common humanity, and everything, including the abyss, that this involves. Otherwise the result is Assured Mutual Destruction, not in an instant perhaps, but inevitable none the less.   

Like it or not "Terrorists" are as human as the rest of us and we have to find a way of engaging with them if we are to end the conflict. I'm not aware that anyone has ever neutralised terrorism by bombing the shit out of all and sundry. Quite the contrary in fact.

Bill


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 13 May 04 - 05:16 PM

Martin Gibson: "Tap dance?" And what is it that I'm "tap dancing" away from, genius? Have any examples of my Jew-hating, Holocaust-denying ways? See, if you're going to make a claim like that, you need, uh, evidence. For instance, when I called you a racist, and compared your anti-Arab anti-Semitism to Nazism, I had abundant evidence to back up my claims. Provided by you, in this thread, even.

So, either prove it, be silent, or surrender. You're not capable of smearing me.

---Lepus Rex


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 13 May 04 - 04:45 PM

Nerd, I knew none of the hijackers was from Iraq, and I also never was of the opinion that the war in Iraq was retaliation for 9/11. I thought it was retaliation for the last 12 years that Saddam Hussein flouted all the UN resolutions he said he would keep, and because somehow he himself had most of the world leaders believing he was hiding something. Maybe he was just pulling a good bluff to look like a big man in front of his supporters.

Anyhow I think the news media are partly to blame for people's confusion. Since we are able to transmit news almost instantaneously, a lot of things get reported before all the facts are there; then we all see different stories in different sources, and sit around going, "I read this," "Oh really? Well, I read THAT," "no, wait a minute, I read something else entirely."

In my mind, a story isn't proper news until all the facts have been gathered and checked out. I think they used to do that in the old days before instant communications.

Ebbie, understanding grievances is the optimum way of handling disputes between people who want to listen to reason. I'm afraid terrorists don't fall into that category. I don't know the answer either.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 May 04 - 04:26 PM

"Terrorism is evil and must be destroyed. "

Granted. However, terrorism is not a snake in the grass or an elephant or a human being that can be eradicated with guns. Terrorism is a means to terrorize for whatever purpose. As such, it's not something you can kill. It's an idea, a mindset, a cloud in the sky, nothing concrete that you can grasp.

Look at the people who create and spread computer viruses for an example of non-lethal terrorism- you can run along behind the viruses and kill each one as they become evident but you can't kill the person that's going to do it beforehand or even so much as stop the person before s/he does sets it free on the world.

The worst thing about hunting down and killing those who terrorize in the name of country, religion or family is that in the act of killing one terrorist you are creating another. And there will always be another generation...

Is there anything that does work? I dunno. Understanding grievances would be a start.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 13 May 04 - 04:00 PM

KimC,

Some Al Qaeda members are from Iraq, but not many. Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden, ironically, hate each other, and Saddam never supported Al Qaeda's activities. Al Qaeda is an internationalist islamist movement, and Saddam was a nationalist, secular dictator. To be in Al Qaeda was automatically a vote of no confidence in Saddam, like being a communist in a monarchy would be a vote of no confidence in the king. Thus to be an Al Qaeda member was very dangerous in Iraq under Saddam.

None of the 9-11 hijackers was Iraqi. In fact, most of them came from Saudi Arabia, but you don't see us going to war there. The government has been trying to convince Americans that there was a connection between iraq and Al Qaeda, so that this war can seem like a retaliation for 9-11. In fact, this war was part of the neoconservative agenda before 9-11; it's not just Al Qaeda, but also the US government, who are using handy, trumped-up excuses to justify crimes they were going to commit anyway.

This is what I meant earlier when I suggested you were a victim of US Government Propaganda. It was not intended as a slur on you, just as an observation that their attempts to confuse you have succeeded.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 13 May 04 - 03:27 PM

I meant the people fighting AGAINST the Coalition.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: "Al Qaeda" beheads an American
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 04 - 02:33 PM

"Iraqi" referred to "people fighting on the side of Iraq".

But isn't "the Coalition" supposed to be fighting on behalf of the the Iraqi people?

...............

I stiill can't see where there is a clear line between speculation, where the facts are not clear, and "conspiracy theories". It seesm to me that most theories are conpiracy theories, but some are plausible and based on evidence, and some are not. After all, the link between Al Qaeda and 911 is based on theories about a conspiracy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 13 May 04 - 02:32 PM

There are some people who cannot differentiate between a palestinian terrorist blowing up a bomb in a mall which kills innocent woman and children, and an Ireali pinpoint attack on a Hamas leader that unintentionally kills one of the terrorists family member.    These people see no difference between these two acts. I feel sorry for them.

There are some people who cannot differentiate between a terrorist purposely beheading a civilian (for the crime of trying to rebuild Iraq) and an American bombing a terrorist camp which kills civilians that are being used by the terrorists as shields.   These people will say "americans are killing innocent children as well".   I feel equally as sorry for these people as well.   They clearly have lost their ability to think clearly.

Yes- I do believe there is wrong and right.   Yes-I understand that it depends on what side of the aisle you are coming from.   My guess is that Jeffrey Dalmer and Ted Kucinzki both adamently believed in what they were doing.    So did Hitler.    There are some people who will defend Hitler. Hey- he was a vegetarian, and a vehement anti smoker. Therefore, he can't be all bad.

He still was evil.   We can argue what is good and what is evil. Sometimes it is hard to tell.   In the case of terrorism, it is not hard to tell.   Terrorism is evil and must be destroyed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 May 04 - 02:31 PM

Jim,

Thanks for the careful examination and thoughtful comments on the beheading video. I especially appreciated the fact that you made note of the synchronization irregularities. I have not seen the video, only some of the picture frames from it(I tried to find it on-line, but couldn't find a link that worked), and I hadn't realized degree of editing that had been done. Your speculation about the time differences is certainly a possibility--and not one that anyone else seems to have come up with--


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 May 04 - 02:30 PM

Lupus Rex

would you like a top hat and cane to go with your tap dance?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 13 May 04 - 02:20 PM

Wolfgang: Ah, you're right that no-one on this thread has called a race (your definition or mine) "subhuman." Thanks for the correction. However, I still feel that the use of the word to describe "the enemy" is dangerous and Nazi-like, and especially so coming from right-wingers. All I originally suggested to DougR was that this statement was out of character for him, and that he should perhaps reconsider his choice of words.

Big Mick: Where has anyone said that the kid deserved to die? (Excellent points, otherwise, though, especially about the motivations of "terrorists.") Since it was me who first brought up the word "profiteer," I assume that I'm the source of the confusion. If so, know that my initial statement should be read as "no-one, even parasitic war profiteers, should die such a horrible death." Which is pretty much the opposite of "he deserved to die."

Martin Gibson: Heh, I'd be able to take you more seriously if I didn't "hear" your posts with the voice of an outraged Jerry Stiller. Relax. I didn't "deny the Holocaust." I just told you to stop whining about it to gain sympathy and "score points." That's an incredibly cheap way of trying to win an argument, especially for a Jew. Speaking of Jews, where did I express any hatred for them? I mean, if you're going to accuse me of something, be accurate, as I was when I called you a racist. Don't just pull crazy shit out of your ass.

So, about the gaps in the video... I haven't actually viewed the video, so anyone who has (Jim McCallan, for instance): is Berg actually moving/screaming, obviously alive during the actual beheading? Or was he perhaps dead before the beheading?

And thanks, gargoyle, for indirectly reminding me that I'm out of kimchi. I'll pick some up this afternoon.

---Lepus Rex


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 May 04 - 02:12 PM

Bobert, you and I agree on more than we disagree. On this we disagree. Anyone, in any Army or group, that executes someone in this manner, just to make a point, is a savage. Period. IMO, of course.

Mick


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 13 May 04 - 01:19 PM

Indeed, I am a Her, and I will admit to being ignorant of a good many things. I will also admit I am confused about the Al Qaeda/Iraq connection/non-connection.

What you're saying then, is AQ doesn't really give a rip about Iraq, they're just using it as a political football, as it were; taking advantage of the situation. That ain't very nice. I'll admit I hadn't really thought about that. Someone else earlier mentioned that the execution squad likely would have killed Berg, or anyone else who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, regardless of the prison scandal, that they just used that for a handy excuse.

Aren't some of the AQ members from Iraq? Or are most of them from other countries? Mister did make the comment the other day that a good number of the people fighting against us there are not themselves Iraqis.

Gets more muddled by the moment, don't it?

Y'all, please don't be calling each other Nazis and the like. It makes bad medicine and negative energy and I think there's already quite enough of that to go around. Try to disagree like gentlemen. I know your mamas taught you manners.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 May 04 - 12:59 PM

Lupus Rex

You are a Nazi and subhuman, a filthy rat, and a maggot. go ahead, hate America, hate the Jews and post your hate for them and deny the holocaust while you are at it as you did.

Defend the Islams who did it for allah.

You obviously don't know the difference between evil and good. I'm sure your life is a pathetic void.

Larry K and DougR are so right on.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 13 May 04 - 12:52 PM

I would also like to add that, while I do understand the use of "Iraqi" to mean "those fighting on the side of Iraq," remember that Al Qaeda is not doing so. They are fighting for fanatical pan-Arabist and indeed pan-Islamist extremism. The fact that they hitched this beheading to the prison abuse scandal doesn't mean they are fighting for Iraq; they were committing such atrocities, including 9/11, when they were open enemies of Iraq. They are opportunists, and will claim to be defending the Iraqi people against American aggression, so they can mislead innocent Iraqis. If this was indeed Al Qaeda, we should NOT confuse them with "Iraq," or assume that things we do to innocent Iraqis will avenge acts committed by Al Qaeda, even if Al Qaeda is now, in the wake of our disastrous invasion, infiltrating Iraq.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 13 May 04 - 12:42 PM

Oops, sorry about the spelling boo-boo. "Propoganda" indeed! And as I said, Kim C has already said it was an honest mistake and I believe her. (Er, is Kim C a her? some of the Kims I know are men....)

Although it does seem to have either made an honest mistake or to be withholding evidence as to how they know the executioneers were Iraqi, the very interesting reuters article Kim C posts in her 12:09 PM posting should maybe shut up the nuts who shout "where is all the Arab outrage about the beheading?" Here's a hint boys: you don't get Saudi TV, so how would you know if there WERE Arab outrage? You assuming there isn't says more about you than about Arabs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 13 May 04 - 12:16 PM

PS - If someone wants to change the title of the thread, go ahead. I really don't want a simple posting of a news story to be mistaken for "right-wing propoganda [sp]supporting a neoconservative agenda."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 13 May 04 - 12:09 PM

Hizbollah Condemns Beheading

This story refers to the execution squad as "Iraqi militants." I guess they made an honest mistake too. In my mind, "Iraqi" referred to "people fighting on the side of Iraq." Let me apologize (again) for not being specific enough. I assure you all (again)it was not an intentional distortion - I was speaking in general terms. Apparently no one has any definite evidence as to the actual nationality of the executioners.

As I stated before, I thought the issue deserved equal time. If that qualifies as a rebuttal, so be it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 13 May 04 - 11:23 AM

Uh, DougR, I hate to disagree with you (actually, I love to disagree with you, but usually on more important matters) but I don't think this was started with all the grace, equanimity and reason that Rick would have brought to it. In fact, the title shows that it was started as a kind of rebuttal to "American soldiers torturing iraquis." But these people were probably not Iraqi, and there is only one American involved, which makes two significant distortions in a thread name of only three words! Although Kim claims this to have been an honest mistake, it is still the same kind of distorton that allowed George Bush to convince most Americans that Iraq sent over the 9-11 Hijackers. This is not a balanced or even accurate statement of the situation. It is instead right-wing propoganda supporting a neoconservative agenda, whether intentionally so or not.

This, I think, is why it upset some of us. I think Rick Fielding would have been more careful.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: S O P
Date: 13 May 04 - 11:15 AM

Hey Bobert:

There's a new Michael Moore movie comin' out. He has the truth, he'll cure what ails ya since you will obviously believe anything.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 04 - 10:59 AM

What "democracy", GUEST, can you be talking about? And the Repubs must have done very well in government/civics oin school because they would have had to to figure out so many creative and corrupt ways to defeat democracy.

Not to creep too far here, but remember Florida? Well, in spite of being caught for illegally dumping some 90,000 black folks from the rolls, they are still doing it, not only in Florida, but now other states around the country. Talk about the arrogance or power?

Jim Crow is alive and well...

Bobert


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


Next Page

 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 22 October 12:33 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.