BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 04 - 10:59 AM

Rumsfeld testified before Congress yesterday that he supported the interrogation techniques used by the military interrogators, the results of which are in the photographic evidence. He said the lawyers OK'd everything, so that makes it OK with him.

The guy is so arrogant, and so is his boss. Today Rumsfeld flew to Iraq, to do more "kick ass" military might damage control, which is accomplished in this administration by exploiting the support for the troops.

After seeing the photographic evidence yesterday, members from both sides of the aisle said the Geneva Convention violations were much more widespread than just a few bad apples, which is the Bush administration position.

Also, the first female combat BG ever (whom the adminsitration is trying to pin the whole thing on now, thanks to Taguba's report), isn't going down without a fight. And it looks like she has a pretty good lawyer, too. They (the BG and her lawyer) are pinning this on the two highest commanders in Iraq, for stealing her troops out from under her, and from refusing to take into account her concerns over MP reservists being given authority to use lethal force in circumstances where it wasn't warranted.

Bush, IMO, is a fool not to just get the pictures out, fire Rumsfeld and Meyers (the chairman of the joint chiefs), and move on in this election year.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 13 May 04 - 10:52 AM

"His thinking is that of someone who believes he is all-powerful and above the law."

So how long have you been close personal friends with Mr. Rumsfeld?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 13 May 04 - 10:46 AM

Wolfgang - I don't think that conspiracy theorizing is necessarily wrong. Depends entirely on sources (which are pretty sketchy due to the secrecy of the U.S. govt.) and the ability to put 2 and 2 together. In fact, all we can do is speculate as to what might be happening in Iraq.

Considering that at least two of the interrogators giving orders were, in fact, contractors, we may never unravel this web of deceit. All we can do is try. In doing so we reveal the ugliness of war and awaken others to the fact that their sons and daughters are taking part in less than honourable actions abroad.

When we learn more about the chain of command in the prison, we will learn that the U.S. govt. is capable of almost any kind of 'set-up' to avoid responsibility for acts of inhumanity. Rumsfeld has never had any respect for an international code of conduct or the opinions of other countries (even allies). His thinking is that of someone who believes he is all-powerful and above the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 13 May 04 - 10:01 AM

Another story here

This story says that the Jordanian man referenced earlier may or may not have been part of the execution party.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 13 May 04 - 09:55 AM

Gargoyle, I would just appreciate it if people would be civil to each other on my thread. If they can't do it, I'd rather not have the thread be open. I don't think that has anything to do with hubris.

Kim chee may be a rotten cabbage, but it's also pretty spicy.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 04 - 09:01 AM

"Fact: Few, if any of those critisizing the US for actions in Iraq have made any comment about the actions of anti-US parties."

Most of us criticisizng the US for actions in Iraq opposed our government's decision to invade and occupy Iraq, so we have been very consistent in exercising our democratic rights of dissent. And nothing pisses you right wing nuts off more than that.

"Liberals, in general, show that they hold the other parties to a lower standard than the US- This is as racist and unreasonable as anything I can think of. They are so inferior that they cannot be held to the standards of humanity that the US is expected to observe."

No, we don't have a racist double standard. We oppose what our government is doing. There is a difference.

I, as a US citizen, can only influence my own government. By opposing my government when I feel it is wrong, I am performing my sacred duty as a citizen.

And nothing pisses you right wing nuts off more than citizen dissenters taking their duties seriously.

That is why, beardedbruce, the parties out of power are known as THE OPPOSITION. Get it? We oppose the current government, because that is our duty as citizens to try and influence the process, and have the government do what we deem right and just when acting in our name. The government works for us, capiche?

I'm beginning to think that Republicans all failed their government/civics classes in high school, because few of today's Republicans seems to know how our democratic government works.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 13 May 04 - 05:52 AM

McGrath - no sir, innocent of the charge! Not racist comments at all, but another attempt at irony - I was trying to reflect, deflect and negate the ridiculous assertions of others that people native to the Middle-East are 'subhuman', or 'savages'. I apologise to all if my skill with language wasn't sufficient to make that obvious.

Johnny :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 May 04 - 04:51 AM

Perhaps, it was quite the opposite. The video of Nick Berg was the real thing, but all the pictures showing American soldiers abusing and torturing Iraqi prisoners are fakes. They come very handy for Bin Laden's Al Qaeda at a time when the outrage about the Madrid carnage and about the bombings of Iraqi worshippers has not ended and his support in the Arab world was shrinking.

So he staged the abuse photos with the help of some paid US soldiers. His people in the American government, the Quislings who have been promised to get a big reward once his plan of Islamic world domination has succeded, leak some informations about the pictures being real in oder to dupe the senators, the public and the president (though maybe he is not duped here, but is in the scheme).

These pictures are a tremendous help to OBL, so we have to ask ourselves why are they published exactly at this time when they have been made months ago. I leave it to your guess who is profiteering from this.

Wolfgang (No, I don't mean what I have written; yes, I am serious about conspiracy theorising)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: bengi
Date: 13 May 04 - 02:35 AM

Carol c How boring is your life?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 13 May 04 - 12:08 AM

Thanks, Jim. I'm sure this was set-up. Too slimy for words.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 13 May 04 - 12:00 AM

"The video is of poor quality, and its time stamp seems to show an 11-hour lapse between when the assailants finish their statement and push Berg down, to when they behead him"

I have studied the video of the alleged beheading, this evening, and I would like to give you my own assessment of what I noticed about it.
The video starts at 13.26:24

13.26:24 - :27 Nicholas Berg sitting on a chair; camera angle from right. with hands untied "My name is Nick Berg, my father's name is Michael
2.18:33 - :43 Here he speaks straight to camera "... my mother's name is Susanne..." He then tells us his family members' names, and where he is from.
There is an obvious cut, here, as the next frame has Mr. Berg sitting on the floor, hands tied behind his back, and feet bound
2.40:03 - 2.44:12 - Speech from the terrorist in the centre of the video wearing black mask, and Mr. Berg is pushed to the floor.
13.45:47 - Video resumes, but the picture is very blurred, and the time on the video jumps eight seconds at 13.45:52 to 13.46:00
13.45:52 - 13.46:33 The 'Beheading'
13.47:47 -:53 Displaying the head of Mr. Berg
2.46:18 - :22 Displaying the head
13.48:38 - :49 A 'pan' shot circling above his head, lying on what appears to be his torso

There seems to be a synchronisation problem with sound to video; the speaker 'coughs' at one stage, but he doesn't 'cover his mouth' until a good 5 seconds after it.
The screams of this poor unfortunate man, however, are audible 7 seconds before he is pushed to the floor, and the person who made the speech is the person who is seen producing the knife and beheading Mr. Berg.
When the video cuts to 13.47:47, the person who is standing next the speaker, a tall man with a white mask, is seen holding the knife, and raising the head. A different camera angle at 2.46:18 shows the same person (apparently) displaying Mr Berg's head. I say 'apparently' because the camera shoots him with the wall as a backdrop, and not at all out of proportion to the picture. The person in the white mask who is standing next to the speaker, while he is making the speech, is the tallest of the people there, is of a different build, and the top of his head is out of camera shot. It 'looks' like a different person in the final frames of the video.

All of which may mean a lot... or nothing. The beheading seems real enough though, I am very sorry to say.

I think the video was made using two different cameras, however, and the 11 hr discrepancy that MTed refers to may be a case of the two cameras having different display settings; ie one having a 24 hr display (13.26), and the other having a 'AM/PM' display (2.40)

A one hour time difference between the where the owners of these cameras last synchronised their equipment, could account for that discrepancy.

Either way, it was an entirely academic exercise.
The fact remains that Mr Nicholas Berg spent his last moments in incredible fear and shock, and my thoughts are very much with his family this evening.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 12 May 04 - 11:55 PM

Thank Goddess for the voices of courage, reason and compasion:

bobert - "...accomplices to lots and lots of murders, including that of Nicolas Berg..."

El Greko - always within reason

McGrath - "What we should never under any circumstances do is use the crimes and atrocities committed by one side as a justification for the crimes and atrocities of the other - in the way that the butchers of that poor young man have tried to do"

M. Ted - You got it!

Strollin Johnny: "Whatever the aims of Al Q'aeda are (and I for one am not absolutely clear on that because they seem to change as time goes by)..."

Maybe their aim is to confuse and deflect the attention of the general population with terror so that the attention of the general population is diverted from the loss of freedoms at home. Maybe they're highly trained mercenaries hired by Multi-National Corporations. Maybe the U.S. and Britain and Australia weren't "sucked in at all". Your guess is as good as mine.

and you said, "...they'll just find another set of 'aims', another 'cause', more 'demands' to justify their atrocities."

Who are you talking about?

Actually, ...if it weren't for Bush being so arrogant and wanting to "...go it alone..." coupled with the fact that he 'jumped the gun' and he's a liar to boot, I might agree with you. :^)

What I want to know is Al Q'aeda's version of the story. Was the victim being accused of a crime and was this a modern version of Iraqi justice by public execution, or was it an act of terrorism for the sake of Terrorism? For all I know, it was mercenaries acting in behalf of the Bush administration to deflect attention from the 'prisoner abuse' scandal.

Larry K is a good example of dualists who believe that the world can be neatly divided into little packages of good and evil. I guess that depends on which side you're on.

This threat is beginning to sound like a civil war. Is that what's really happening in America? I hope Guest and others are prepared to do battle with the Giant and move from words to action.


Lepus Rex - Thanks for being so "RIGHT ON" !!!!!

Gusest Gerhard - "...'Justice is specific and has a limit; revenge can be specific, but it is unlimited."

Thank you for that clarification.



Kim C - Thanks for starting this thread but you have to admit, doctors and teachers aren't in it for the money. Businessman are.

Thats right Mick, "...Better to figure out what the people that we supposedly went in to help, and then figure out how to give it to them."

As far as finding the guy who actually did the beheading; very doubtful. He's probably dead by now.

The propaganda is so heavy that you definitely need to be able to read between the lines. I wonder when the American public will tire of being manipulated and controlled? I'm sure that many good, Germans were caught in a similar web of deceit by their leader.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 May 04 - 11:28 PM

Fact: the Iraqis have the right to fight if they wish.

Fact: The US troops and civilian employess has the right to protect themselves, even if it means killing Irqis.

Fact: The actions of the prison guards seem to be against the UCMJ, and are being prosecuted.

Fact: Few, if any of those critisizing the US for actions in Iraq have made any comment about the actions of anti-US parties.

Liberals, in general, show that they hold the other parties to a lower standard than the US- This is as racist and unreasonable as anything I can think of. They are so inferior that they cannot be held to the standards of humanity that the US is expected to observe.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Bobert
Date: 12 May 04 - 11:05 PM

Mick,

I'm reading your post and going, "yeah, yeah, okay, yeah" and then the "savage" remark makes me stop my "yeah, yeah, okay, yeah"'s as you seemed to jump time...

"Savage" is not in short supply in Iraq, Mickster... Ask any of the Iraqis who have suffered it from the US led forces or their survivers...

Other than that, we're not oo far apart... Hey, these folks have been invaded and occupied and are not able to stand up to the might of the US military but they are certainly going to fight with what they have...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:42 PM

Mick, the prison guards were clearly wrong to do what they did. It was unnecessary.

But now that suspicion is being planted that the video may be a fake, I reckon it's a moot point.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 May 04 - 07:26 PM

There is something very peculiar about the beheading video that was pointed out in the Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4082178,00.html

>The video is of poor quality, and its time stamp seems to show an 11-hour lapse between when the >assailants finish their statement and push Berg down, to when they behead him. That suggests a >delay between those two portions of tape posted on the Web site.


These time stamp differences are evident in the photos at one of the sites listed above--

This is one of a number of strange things about this horrifying incident--

Other things include:

the family's claim that he was held by the Americans, the American claim that he was not--

the court action that seemed to result in his release

the peculiar fact that he went to Iraq without a job offer, came home, and went back to Iraq again, still without a job--

The confusing claims about his father's political views(some say he is a peace activist, some seem to think he was an avid Bush supporter)

The odd fact that initial reports on the discovery of his body in Baghdad say that his body showed signs of trauma, but don't mention that it was headless--

The serendipitous appearance of the body and the video at a time when the Bush people needed it most--

Minor things, admittedly, but vivid images have a way of taking on a life of their own, and obscuring the events that surround them--they represent at best, only a few moments of a larger flow of events, and at, worst, are contrived to convey a message--

. We watch, and wonder, but are completely helpless to do anything--not surprising that folks are a bit touchy--

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 May 04 - 06:31 PM

I wonder why there was no hue and cry over profiteering when the French and Russians were doing it? Oh, that's right.... they had an agreement with Saddam Hussein.

To suggest that this young man was doing something wrong, or deserved a death such as he faced, because he was profiteering is despicable.

For the right wingers to act as though these people are barbaric to do such a thing ignores an important fact. How many of these people had children killed during the bombing? How many of these people were happy we took down Saddam Hussein, in fact expressed their gratitude, and are now fighting us. And why? Because we only want to liberate them if they will set up a government we approve of. If we really gave a shit about democracy, it wouldn't matter if the Iraqui people elected a Moslem government. Aren't the people opposed to this the same ones that want to restore Christian values to America? What the hell is the difference? Real liberation would have sought to build a coalition of the people, and their chosen leaders, and them helped them to restore the infrastructure.

This death had nothing to do with the sickening abuse, torture and killing of the Iraqui prisoners. These terrorists would have killed this person and any other target of opportunity, even if the abuses had never happened.

The right wingers that act as though this is a whole different act. They say that all we did was embarass them, and they react by doing this horrible thing. Kim, Doug, have you forgotten about the prison guard/MP's that fired live ammunition into the prison yard?

Confusing post? Yep. Meant it to be. It is meant to demonstrate that all the horseshit I am hearing from folks that think they have all the answers, is just that. What has happened cannot be taken back. All that can be done is to take a very careful measure of where we are, and try to go from there. Clearly the USA cannot just leave, but we had better quit trying to turn this place into Turkey, or western style democracy. Better to figure out what the people that we supposedly went in to help, and then figure out how to give it to them.

Oh .... yeah .... and we need to hunt down this savage who cut off Berg's head. I don't care who thinks what of me when I say that with any luck he will die slowly and painfully. And when he gets to the other side and finds out what Allah's real view of his actions are, he will suffer for an eternity.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 12 May 04 - 06:12 PM

"First, I don't think he is on one, (a hook, that is..) and if he is, he will get off it all by himself. To even suggest such a thing is an insult to the young man's family."

I think you should let the young man's family decide that for themselves, DougR.
I think they have as well; being, as they are, in the process of suing the US Government.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:32 PM

Doug - of course I wasn't accusing you of grabbing on to this crime to get Bush off the hook. I do however think that this is one of the results it can be expected to have, though the expression I'd use would be "takemnthenheat off him." The front pages which have had pictures of atrocities or alleged atrocities by the USA and UK are today dominated by pictures of this killing.

And I am sure that there would be spin-doctors working for the US Government and military who saw this as a kind of "good news" for them. That's how such people think when they are in a crises. Rememeber the British government official whose reaction to 911 was "this is a good day to bury bad news" - though in fcat she was foolish enough to put this thought on record, and it destroyed her career.

And I'm reminded of the recorded fact that when Churchill heard about Peral Harbour his reaction was a sort of grim rejoicing: "No American will think it wrong of me if I proclaim that to have the United States at our side was to me the greatest joy."

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:10 PM

If you all can't carry on a civil discussion without a bunch of mean-spirited swearing and name-calling and ad hominem BS, go start your own thread, and I'll ask for this one to be closed.

Doctors make a living from other people's misfortunes. Does that make them profiteers? What about lawyers? Insurance companies?

Not everyone who ventures into a war zone is motivated by greed. Some people really do want to help, and assuming that "these people are there to leech profits out of a racist, illegal war" undermines the good work we'll never hear about in the news, because it doesn't make good ratings. We don't care to hear about the doctors volunteering their time to care for the wounded, or about the Nashville mother who teaches Iraqi kids how to read.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DougR
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:02 PM

GUEST: No, you do not speak for EVERYBODY on this forum, and no, not EVERYBODY agrees that replacing Saddam was wrong.

SueB: I was referring to Al Queda when I described them as sub-human, and nothing I have read on this thread has disabused me of that belief.

KimC: thank you for posting this thread. It needed to be done. The only person I can think of that could have posted it with equal grace, less malice, and studied reason is Rick Fielding, and unfortunately, he is not here to do that anymore.

And McGrath: it never entered my mind that this event might get "Bush off the hook." First, I don't think he is on one, and if he is, he will get off it all by himself. To even suggest such a thing is an insult to the young man's family. That's not like you Kevin.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Amos
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:00 PM

If the problem with liberals is that they misunderstand true evil, possibly the problem with reactionary neocons is their distorted and often self-serving concept of true good.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 12 May 04 - 03:51 PM

Doug- When a liberal has lost an argument and doesn't have an intelligent comment or response, they generally resort to calling you a nazi.   Congratulations- it means you have won the argument.   It speaks far more to them than it does to you.    I get very insulted when someone throws out the nazi tag because the person obviously does not have a clue about history.   If they had a thimble of intelligence they wouldn't use the reference.   3 million jews died in Poland alone from nazi's- virtually eliminating the entire population.   And you called some terrorists "subhuman"   Yeah- I see the similarities.

Sean Hannity states that liberals don't understand true evil.   All you have to do is read this forum to prove he is right.    Terrorists are trying to kill us and we believe it is because of George Bush.   (of course that doesn't explain the 9 attacks on America before Bush was elected) It is interesting to note that Al Queda has killed more Muslims than they have killed westeners.    (Look at the Saudi Arabia bombings last week)   It is also intersting to note that the world comdemmed USA for the prison abuse, but aside from England and Austrailia is dead silent on the beheading.    Where is the Muslim outrage over beheading.   We are constantly told that it is a religion of peace.    Where is the Martin Luther King of the muslim community?   Probably beheaded.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 May 04 - 03:44 PM

I had considered to quote the 'subhuman' Texans, Lepus, but you didn't really sound serious there.

BTW, no one in this thread has called a race subhuman.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Gerard
Date: 12 May 04 - 03:36 PM

There is a difference between justice and revenge. Justice is specific and has a limit; revenge can be specific, but it is unlimited.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 12 May 04 - 03:28 PM

brucie: What would training firefighters down the block have to do with war profiteering? We're talking about Berg, who was in Iraq to make money off the war. Therefore, a profiteer.

DonMeixner: "Americans working to rebuild Iraq" is a lovely image, but the truth is these people are there to leech profits out of a racist, illegal war. Which makes them bad people, and, yes, profiteers. Like I said, my opinion. I guess we'll just have to "agree to disagree," or whatever.

And nice try, Wolfgang. But as you know, in that instance I used "subhuman" as a personal insult, not a label for a race of people. Which is a bit of a difference. If you wanted to quote me, you should have quoted me calling Texans "inbred, subhuman, pistol-totin' cattle-fuckers" back in 2001. Which, even though it was written in a joking manner, would've been much more effective. :)

Martin Gibson: Boo fucking Holocaust hoo. Don't tarnish your murdered relatives' memories by using them to score points in an argument. That's just tacky. I really couldn't care less which false god you worship, and that has nothing to do with your being a racist. Just in this thread, you've called Arabs "maggot(s)," "dirtbags," and implied that they smell bad. Hmm. So, Arabs are filthy vermin? Like rats? Isn't that what the Nazis said about your family? What makes your racism different? You're just targeting a different bunch of Semites.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 12 May 04 - 02:14 PM

GUEST, you are taking me out of context. What I mean is, when such a crime against humanity has been committed, does it really matter where the victim or the perpetrator is from? I'm not sure it does. I don't think the Red Cross thinks it matters, or Amnesty International.

Tell me why YOU think it matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:55 PM

"And furthermore, does it really matter what country the terrorists are from?"

Yes it does. A great deal. If you don't understand WHY it matters a great deal, then you aren't paying very close attention.

"Show me a batch of politicians that ISN'T a bunch of liars."

It isn't just about the lying. It is also about who is to blame for this unholy mess in Iraq. It is about who is to blame for absolutely no oversight of the military (that is Congress' job, BTW) since 9/11. It is about who ordered that military intelligence, et al directly violate the Geneva Conventions in order to torture the confessions the Bush administration wanted from Iraqis to "prove" this US sponsored and sanctioned state terrorism is "morally" right, when it is clear it is ethically very, very wrong.

Right wing morals be damned, I say, be they the morality of right wing Republicans in the US, or the morality of the right wing Islamic terrorists in the Middle East.

End the carnage. Now.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:54 PM

It's hard to stay balanced on this.

Strolling Johnny, you start off rightly thanking El Greko for his "calm and well reasoned piece", and quote right - but then before your post is ended you are slipping into "...go back to their Oases and spend the rest of their days racing camels to entertain themselves". And that is essentially racist language, even when not used by a racist, as I am sure is the case here.

In wars people do horrible things. Inevitably there's a tendency to concentrate on the horrible things that are done by one side, and to comfort ourselves that these are intrinsically worse than the things done by the other. But the closer you get to it, the harder it is to be sure about that, and it doesn't really matter that much.

What we should never under any circumstances do is use the crimes and atrocities committed by one side as a justification for the crimes and atrocities of the other - in the way that the butchers of that poor young man have tried to do, and in the way that some of the posts in this thread, and the comment pieces in some of the media have attempted to do, in reverse.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:42 PM

Well said, Johnny.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:38 PM

I believe beheading is currently the standard foem of capital punishment in quite a few countries, is it not? And when did the French stop using the guillotine?- some time in the 20th C., no? not all that long ago.

As several others have said, an execution- by gas, by electrocution, by hanging, by beheading by firing squad- is an execution. No diffenence, worth the name.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:10 PM

El Greko - your first post is a masterpiece, I applaud you for your calm and well reasoned piece which stands out like a beacon against some of the OTT stuff here.

I'm desperately saddened but not at all surprised by this killing, and by the manner of execution. I feel for him, his terror and suffering, and for the suffering of his family and friends. And I feel the same for all human beings who have suffered as a result of the actions of both the terrorists and those who claim to wage war on terror. A death is a death and it hurts the same, irrespective of which side of the fence you're sitting on.

The fact is that the killing of this young man, its method and recording, was done deliberately to create the kind of internal conflict amongst 'Westerners' that we've seen in this thread. Whatever the aims of Al Q'aeda are (and I for one am not absolutely clear on that because they seem to change as time goes by) they know that they cannot bring them about by straightforward force of arms, so they commit their atrocities in order to foment unrest within the nations they perceive as their enemies. The strategy is already working well - they sucked the US and UK into two vastly expensive, unjustified and unwinnable 'wars', they changed the course of the Spanish election and brought the Goverment down, and they may very soon bring about the downfall of the US President and the UK Government. Not bad for a bunch of 'Subhumans' (not my word BTW - I only use it to indicate a sense of irony).

We ('The West', whatever you like to call it) have chosen the wrong path at every turn. We gave the terrorists (Al Q'aeda, whoever) and their associate organisations the excuse for the USS Cole, 9/11, Madrid et al, and we're still doing it.

And what next? What if the Coalition forces (as is being demanded by many, including a significant number of Mudcatters) withdraw from Afghanistan and Iraq, and persuade Israel to get the hell out of Palestine? Does anyone really believe that Osama and his band of Good Ole Buddies will pack it in, go back to their Oases and spend the rest of their days racing camels to entertain themselves, or that Iraq will miraculously be renewed as a peaceful Garden of Eden for its dreadfully ill-treated people? Like the jungle tiger who raids the village, 'they' have tasted human flesh and they like it - they won't go away, they'll just find another set of 'aims', another 'cause', more 'demands' to justify their atrocities.

We've dug a big hole, filled it with our own excrement, and dived head-first into it. God help us, someone has to. IMOH.

Johnny (no smiley face)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:03 PM

Show me a batch of politicians that ISN'T a bunch of liars.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Bobert
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:57 PM

And just a reminder that the beheading wouldn't have taken place if George Bush had told Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle the same thing that Bill Clinton told them... "Get out of my office..."...

This is a war of *choice*. No two ways about it so Bush and his boys are very much responsible for what we are seeing... They have lied to use about their motives for their war of choice. They have changed their story over and over to cover their real motives: oil and ratings. Well, more and more folks are figuring it out. The Repubs meanwhile are busy getting as many black voters disenfranshised in hopes of stealing yet another election...

I may not like Kerry enough to vote for him but he was right on the money in his candid remark about this current batch being a bunch of liars...

.... and I'd throw in, accomplices to lots and lots of murders, including that of Nicolas Berg...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:45 PM

As I read through this whole thread, Don Meixner and DougR make the most sense and I agree with them.

The terrorists who did this are our worst enemy.

Chanting and praising Allah while performing this act cannot be made sensible for any reason. Blaming Bush will never stop their hate for us. It never did and it never will.

And Lupus Rex, you have a lot of fucking nerve calling a Jew who had relatives in concentration camps Hitler. Go fuck your left nostril through your right one, douchebag.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:25 PM

Kim C, sorry if I jumped to conclusions.

DougR, I can't agree that this was "subhuman" or even as someone else said "medieval." Not because I have a higher opinion than you of the actions, but because I prefer to be honest about human behavior. In ancient times, the Romans crucified thousands. In medieval times, the inquisition committed horrible acts of execution on essentially innocent people, and so did practically every secular authority. In eighteenth century France, supposedly the height of culture of civilization, beheading was a common form of execution, and many of the victims had committed no crimes. In nineteenth century England, being "pressed into service" (ie kidnapped) meant that you had gone from life in a parliamentary monarchy to an absolute autocracy, where your human rights could be taken away on a whim. If you rebelled, you could be "flogged round the fleet," beaten to death with a cat-o-nine-tails while seized to the gratings of a succession of different vessels (similar to what the Romans did to Jesus). Black men have been lynched by southern whites within living memory. Don't forget slavery, the holocaust, "ethnic cleansing."

Human life, in most places and most times, has been violent. Our thin veneer of a hundred years or so of politeness in Western Europe and America falls away pretty quickly in wartime; witness the atrocities admitted by American soldiers in Viet Nam, and the atrocities carried out by the VC as well.

This beheading was pretty violent, no question. It was immoral, profane, disgusting.

Unfortunately, it was also a hundred percent human.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:15 PM

Is Al-Qaeda not an opposing force? And furthermore, does it really matter what country the terrorists are from? This particular group of people kidnapped a man and took his head off, and meant for everyone to see it. It is a vile crime regardless of anyone's nationality.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: sledge
Date: 12 May 04 - 11:50 AM

Cold and calous yes, Evil quite possibly but Subhuman, not so in my books, start using that kind thinking and how long till the "einsatsgruppen" start sifting out the undesirables and where do they stop.

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 04 - 11:28 AM

Or the video of our troops firing live rounds of ammunition (not plastic bullets) into crowds of rioting prisoners, most of whom fell in the category of the 90% of prisoners who were wrongfully detained?

After all, a bunch of forceably isolated, humiliated Iraqi men with a lot of bottled up anger, armed with rocks and stones, and contained in small space can be quite dangerous. But words like bloodbath do come to mind. Remember Attica and Nelson Rockefeller's decision to bomb the prison to quell the rioting? The MOVE rowhouses in Philly? The firestorm at Waco?

If we treat Americans under our media microscopes like that, what atrocities do you suppose we are capable of when no one is looking, no one seems to be in charge, and the pressure from your fellow troops to conform to the group committing atrocities can easily be understood to be stand with us or you are a dead man/woman?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 04 - 11:18 AM

It's worth remembering that, in at least one case, the torture ended in the death of the prisoner. In the words of Sergeant Frederick: "They stressed him out so bad that the man passed away."

Anybody want to watch the video of that? Death by slow torture at the hands of the "liberators"?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: SueB
Date: 12 May 04 - 11:06 AM

As far as we know, Kim, it wasn't the Iraqi "opposing forces" who are responsible for the beheading. It looks like it might have been Al-Qaeda sponsored terrorists, and they may not even have been Iraqis at all.

I think it's an important question: WHO is the enemy?

Is it Martin Gibson's "maggot Arabs"?
Is it DougR's "subhuman" whoever the hell he's talking about?
Is it Don's "universal THEM" whoever them is, as long as it's not US?

Does anyone remember the old POGO cartoon, that says,
"I has found the enemy, and they is us."


PS - Don - I have reread your posts, and I realize that you have said some things I agree with - I was distracted by your pithy insults to people I thought were asking some interesting and necessary questions. I don't know if you realize this, but an insult is no less an insult when the deliverer is privately laughing.
Example: You're a doo-doo head! Hahaha! Just kidding! See what I mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:58 AM

It's worth remembering that, in at least one case, the torture ended in the death of the prisoner. In the words of Sergeant Frederick: "They stressed him out so bad that the man passed away."

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:54 AM

" think Doug, Kim, and a number of our frequent posters to this and other threads have been around this forum long enough that we shoudl all know what they mean."

That assumption is a big mistake.

As to whether not providing links to the photos is censorship--hey people, there is a difference between intentionally ignoring, benignly neglecting, and actively censoring. I do hope everyone here realizes anyone with decent internet access can view anything currently making the rounds online.

Some of the photographs and videos are authentic and did need to be viewed by Americans (like the prisoner abuse photos released thus far). Some photos/videos don't need to be viewed but will be because of the pornographic titillation factors involved (like the beheading photos and videos). Finally, some just needs to be ignored, like the doctored military porn/rape photos linked to in another thread, that is nothing more than recycled porn updated with the "Iraqi prisoner abuse" factor to extend it's internet shelf life.

We need to be vigilant, discerning and discriminating about what is valid, and what is sensationalized right now, because we are being bombarded with images: some are propaganda, some are legitimate news, and some are opportunistic sadism and pornography.

The prison abuse scandal is one we needed to learn about to shine the light into the darkness of what too many of our troops were becoming in Iraq, to prevent the situation from worsening, and hopefully prevent future atrocities. Most Americans would have ignored the stories about prisoner abuse if not for the photographic evidence, IMO. So it was essential that they be released, and that we look critically at them.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: barrygeo
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:54 AM

Amazing how much terror, fear, hatred and in-fighting you can create with a kitchen knife a video camera and the internet. You don't need a laser guided multi-million dollar high tech bomb.
Thats why the terrorists (and thats not the guy with the knife, he's just a conveniant psycho - its the guy who thought up the idea of the video) wont be defeated even by the might of the US forces.
Only by addressing the injustice (real or perceived) can a stop be put to this horror. I see no evidence that the developed world wants to enter into dialogue on the regional problems in the middle east.
Until some real efforts are made at reconciliation in the region be prepared for more terror.
It took us 30 years to figure it out in Ireland. Similar story in South Africa and the Basque region. The Russians had to pull out of Afghanistan with their tails between their legs.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:51 AM

DougR, I don't equate the soldiers who "abused" prisoners in that prison with the people who cut off this man's head.

I equate a government (and the nation that supports it) who kill innocent women, children, and old men for money (oil).

If they're subhuman, then so are we.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:20 AM

I understand that it happened; I don't need to look at pictures of it happening. Some may feel that looking at the pictures is the only way to truly understand the gravity of the act. I respect that, but I also suspect that there are a good number of people who will look at the pictures for a ghoulish thrill. I'll pass.

I think Doug, Kim, and a number of our frequent posters to this and other threads have been around this forum long enough that we shoudl all know what they mean. I can confidently say that Doug does not view all Iraqis, or all people from the middle east, as sub-human, but that characterization of the perpetrators of this horrible act was intended to communicate his revulsion at what they have done. Responding to his post by calling him a Nazi and other such insults is really vile.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Bobert
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:20 AM

Kim:

The ratio is based on reports of over 10,000 Iriqi deaths... These numbers have been reported by Pacifica, I've heard the numbers on C-Span. You read the newspapers and hear 58 Iraqis killed, 2 marines also killed. Over 30,000 bombs were dropped on Iraq during th invasion alone. This was reported in the Wsahington Post several months ago. Throw in the millions of rounds of tank, mortar, artillery and small arms rounds being fired at Iraqis in the last year, the 10,000 figure is probably way, way low. I mean, if I were the commander in chief and after all that fire power had been unleashed in a country the size of Oklahoma and my top general came to me me and said, "Well, Mr President, we got about 10,000 of them Iraqis.", we''.... I would have fired him. With that kind of money you could have privatized the invasion to the Mafia and have a much greated Iraqi body count.

So when you take the 700 Americans killed, the 20 to 1 figure is probably very conservative...There have also been reports from some of the same sources that I mentioned above that the civilian casualties are running at 90%... Now, as terrible 9/11 was to America, try to comprehend how the Iraqis really feel about the US invasion... And please spare us all the bogus polls that were taken. They are to any thinking person absolutely rediculous...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: ToulouseCruise
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:06 AM

I was reading this quickly and although I am not going to enter into the debate, I will advise that there are some photos taken from that video available on a nationally known website. If you would like the link to that, you may email me at [e-mail].

I am choosing not to put the link here due to its graphic content by my own choice. I am probably going to start a debate in itself whether I should be a) promoting these graphic photos; or b) censoring information by not showing the link directly here. My intention is not to start a debate or anything, merely to provide a link for those who really want it -- meaning you have to email me instead of just hitting a blue clicky.

Brian.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Java
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:00 AM

" It is no more barbarous than execution by firing squad"

With a kitchen knife?

This wasn't one blow with a razor sharp sword. Watch the video, vomit, then reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:43 AM

Sue, settle down. By "Their People" I meant specifically the opposing force fighting against us, not all Iraqis, and not everyone in the Middle East. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

The whole situation reminds me of the Indian Wars in the US in the 19th century. The regular Army was faced with an opposing force of a different culture & a different mindset - a force that wasn't going to fight back on the US Army's terms. Likewise the terrorists are of a different culture, and they don't fight on our terms either.

The local news interviewed some Iraqi immigrants who agreed that the prison scandal was indeed a tragedy, however they were quick to remind the reporter that the people being tortured & abused were the same people who tortured & abused innocent citizens. Now, I don't bring that up to condone any of the atrocities that have happened at the hands of our own soldiers. I bring it up to illustrate my previous point that many people in their culture have a specific viewpoint about these things that may be very different from ours.