BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: SueB
Date: 11 May 04 - 11:53 PM

The bigotry and defensiveness shown to us by DougR and DonMeixner are shared by more Americans than I'd like to think about. It's scary to realize that there are people walking around with that kind of toxic stew simmering under the surface, just waiting for a target to spew it onto. I don't know why people around here bend over backward all the time to accomodate the views of people like DougR and his ilk. We go to great lengths to say things like "well, I don't agree with your viewpoint, but I *respect* it." What is there here to respect?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Mooh
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:05 AM

Well, nobody expects them to turn the other cheek...

Neither side here even pretends to "do unto others" and neither side has yet reached the limits of their potential horror. Why should we be surprised? This war makes my heart very tired.

Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:19 AM

Hi SueB

I think I'm more puzzled by the defensiveness comment than I am about being a bigot. You and I have not crossed paths before that I am aware of or you'd know my feelings about the US being in Iraq.

So let me introduce myself to you. I am a 53 year old accessibility designer, silversmith, and musican. I have been a life long democrat and have been active the idea of power through peaceful means since I was 16 or so. I've played mainly traditional music for about 30 years but I love cowboy songs and have a fondness for The Sons of The Pioneers.

I have some great old guitars and a nice new one. (How is your new Martin behaving by the way?) And I will share any song I know with anyone who asks. I'll even print the chords if I have too.

I love a good debate and I'll argue politics till I can't talk. I admire anyone who is passionate about their debate, even Bobert tho' I doubt he believes this. And I can walk away from a debate and still like the person I was debating.

I am unaware of simmering toxic stews or any unrelenting hate for my fellow man. The only intolerance I have is for terrorism of any kind. That which is perpetrated on us by them or that which is done by us to them. And I don't believe I have ever been called an "Ilk" before either.

So, now you know about me, sometime if you like, introduce yourself and say "Hi".

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: LadyJean
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:35 AM

He was peddling antennae. That's not such a horrible thing to do. I wish somebody had stopped Bush from dragging us into Iraq. I wish American forces had shipped this guy home the minute they caught him.
26 year old males are frequently short on common sense. This guy seems to have been shorter than most.
If his captors had sold him back to the Americans, I would understand.
But they executed a harmless fool. That was a horrible thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DougR
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:20 AM

My conclusion: many of you folks are just plain sick! You berate me because I referred to the killers of that young man as subhuman? Will you EVER accept the fact that we are facing an enemy unlike any we have ever known? Probably not.

Ebbie: My parents are long dead. Were they alive and had they read your post they would have been sickened by your response. I loved and respected them; they loved and respected me.

How in the hell can you folks equate the actions of the young American soldiers who mistreated Iraqi prisoners with the bastards that summarily cut the head off of an innocent young man before a television camera?

Sick I say. Sick.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:30 AM

I still wonder why the Americans, once they were through with Mr. Berg, did not insure his safe departure.

In this unlawful war, I wouldn't put anything past the Bush administration. Why did they hold Berg for so long? Did they plant suspicion among the Iraqi population regarding the reasons for Mr. Berg's detention? The answer to these questions we will never know but I do know that I do not believe one word of anything the Bush Administration has to say.

Could it be that this is just another evil way to shift the focus away from the abuse of the Iraqi prisoners? Now, instead of being on the defensive, America is on the offensive again. Bush's war on terrorism is creating terror throughout the world. Bush is evil! For all we know, the unidentified murderers are just some of Bush's mercenaries or more of his "contractors". I would put nothing past these treacherous, war mongers.

My heart aches for the Berg family.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:54 AM

"This act illustrates the kind of enemy we are facing. They are subhuman, and in my opinion deserve no special consideration if captured." DougR

Are all the prisoners in Abu Ghraib this kind of subhuman enemy? All the Iraqis? When you see one how can you tell if he's subhuman or just in the wrong place at the wrong time? Assuming he's not decapitating someone at the time.

Labeling people "subhuman" and treating them that way is one of the roads to hell.

We should treat all people -even villians - decently, not only for their sake but for our sake.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 May 04 - 02:40 AM

"Will you EVER accept the fact that we are facing an enemy unlike any we have ever known? "

But see, DougR, that statement's just not true. These people are human beings, with all the contradictions that implies. Did you ever hear the phrase: "But for the grace of God, there go I"? The fact that you were born on this continent and in this era does not make you - or me - better, it only exposed you to a different culture.

Born there you, in all likelihood, would be shouting alongside your neighbors against the evils of America. If you were younger you might be out there with the hood on your head; if you were there and the age you are today, your heart would probably be sickened unto death at the abuses on both sides. But in either case you would probably feel that the Americans had brought it on themselves. We have no business there. The Iraqis did not commit the 9/11 crimes, nor did the Iraqi people commit the crimes of Saddam Hussein. They suffered under his rule- and now they are suffering under our rule. The difference is that we have no business there.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 May 04 - 03:52 AM

Sad, very sad, the way we turn on each other over these events. If we folkies, supposedly more open-minded and better educated than others, cannot keep our calm, what chance does the wider community have?

Can we agree on a few salient points and stop asking each other to "bite us" or calling each other names in our frustration? I offer:

1. Mr Berg's act in going to Iraq at all, whatever his motives, was foolish. He may or may not have been a foolish man, but this time he got it wrong.
2. Nevertheless, he did not deserve to die for this foolish act. Much less, to die in such a way.
3. The documented maltreatment/abuse/torture of Iraqi prisoners by coalition soldiers and their contractors is despicable, and the arm of justice needs to reach all of those who bear responsibility up and down the chain. Whoever they are. I am willing to wait for the trials and inquiries to bring their verdict, now that it is in the public domain. And I am worried that there may be more such acts that have not seen the light of day yet.
4. While we do not condone the above two sets of acts, neither are we surprised that they are raising the stakes by escalating the violence perpetrated (and perceived) and we are likely to see much worse to come down the line.

Now, those four points alone should find us all in agreement, I hope. If not, I would really worry. I venture to offer a few more:

5. The Iraqi prisoners (those that have been abused/tortured and others) are either not involved in perpetrating Saddam's excesses and horrors, and even if some of them have been involved in such, their involvement is not yet proven - otherwise they would be under trial/sentence.
6. The coalition was not invited to liberate Iraq. The openly stated motives for attacking Iraq at all (WMDs, non-compliance with the 17 UN resolutions) have been de facto proven now to be false (WMDs - listen to the inspectors, not to me) or insufficient by themselves (the UN did not support an attack on Iraq on the basis of the non-compliance alone). The Al Qaeda links of the Iraqi state have not been proven either, though Al Qaeda undoubtedly operates in Iraq.
7. There is no other way to see our armies there than as occupying forces, therefore. Some may believe that this is till for the good - others doubt our intentions. The doubters include many of the Iraqi people.
8. Most "hearts and minds" efforts in Iraq have failed so far, as a result of 7 above. And actions like 3 above will certainly make things worse
9. The Iraqi people at large are not subhumans, or animals. They may harbour hatred for the occupying forces, but that is a normal reaction by any people who find themselves in their position.
10. There are those with agendas of their own who try to foment unrest and hatred against the US and UK. Fact. Also unsurprising.
11. There are those with agendas of their own who try to foment hatred against the Iraqis as a nation/people. Fact. Also unsurprising.
12. Religion is often used as a weapon/reason/excuse in such circumstances. So some of those in 10 above blame the "Christian infidels", and some of those in 11 above blame the Muslims. But the causes of all of the above are in fact nothing to do with religion. This is just about fanatics trying to capitalise on the situation.
13. None of the above should be happening.

Now, what does that leave to argue about?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:02 AM

Only the misinformation

Great post, El Greko

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:41 AM

About a month ago we had a thread about euphemisms.

Many agreed that the government(s) often use euphemisms (collateral damage etc.) instead of calling it what it is.

The same frame of mind that leads people in governments to use euphemisms can be studied here in some of the posts. 'Unfortunate' for this death qualifies as a euphemism of the worst kind. Don't complain when you see in others what you are not willing to avoid yourself.

No person should ever be called 'subhuman' under any circumstances, but a particular act or treatment may be called 'subhuman'. Don makes this difference.

Lepus, I'm sure you have no difficulties explaining yourself that typing Heil Hitler, dude....You're not helping your cause with creepy Nazi-like statements such as this in the same post is no contradiction. But as someone who has called another Mudcatter subhuman fucktard you should have a bit more tolerance and understanding for others using this expression than you have shown here lest we get the impression that you have different standards who may be called subhuman.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 04 - 05:47 AM

We are all agreed that the Americans should never have been in Iraq, but I don't accept that killing Iraqi civilians is morally equivalent to beheading. This sounds neat on the surface, but one occurs in the heat of battle, and is regretted (if only in a cynical way because of the bad publicity) and the other is a deliberate, concious, cold-blooded act. One is downplayed and covered up if at all possible, showing suitable shame, guilt and remorse; the other is proudly boasted of, and recorded on a video - a medieval state of mind recorded on modern technology. Islam, anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 May 04 - 05:53 AM

Agree, GUEST, but I don't think anyone equated, or indeed compared the two. Nor should they. They are both abhorrent, full stop.

There is no scale for "Thou shalt not...".

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 06:53 AM

The paradoxical thing is that this was the first bit of "good" news for the Bush camp in weeks. It takes the torture stuff off the front pages (in the places where it ever was actually on the front pages).

It even provides a kind of justification, or at least mitigation, of that kind of thing - "They are subhuman, and in my opinion deserve no special consideration if captured"; "How in the hell can you folks equate the actions of the young American soldiers who mistreated Iraqi prisoners with the bastards that summarily cut the head off of an innocent young man before a television camera?"

I doubt if the people who murdered this young man had any conscious intetion of throwing Bush a lifeline - I think it's more likely that they wanted to bring about retaliations which would inevitably hit the wrong people, and increase the level of hatred against the occupiers - but that is precisely what they have done. And I am sure that, at any any higher levels of Al Qaeda planning and leadership, they will be very happy about this aspect, sincs Bush is surely their prime weapon in achieving their long-term goals.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 May 04 - 07:20 AM

NOW you're talkin' Dougie! Untermenschen! I knew you had it in you. Lets get 'em all rounded up into extermination camps;
then we can get you a job over there pouring Zyklon-B. Or would you rather tend one of the crematoria?


Don: Put on Paxton's Willing Conscript & listen to it a couple of times thru.


Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 May 04 - 07:37 AM

Greg F, please read my post that followed Doug's and please don't add to the sharp tones of this thread. Let's pipe down, is what I was saying. Can we do that?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 04 - 07:43 AM

I refuse to create hierarchies of best death/worst death. I see all these needless deaths as horrific, whether the death is the televised execution of an American civilian, or the silent, hidden death of an Iraqi child bleeding to death from schrapnel injuries caused by American bombings.

What we are seeing over and over here, are people over-valuing the lives of Americans and under-valuing the lives of the Iraqis.

Which is probably the most horrific aspect of this tragic war. We all become less human as a result of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 May 04 - 07:53 AM

101% with you, GUEST.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Bobert
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:06 AM

"We are facing an enemy like we have never known", Dougie?

That could have also come from the mouth of the average Iraqi man-on-the-street... You're only looking at whaqt is going down from your perspective. That's why wars happen in the first place. And I might add that that is why most wars are lost... When we loose the ability to at least make an effort to see things the ways others do, then we really loose the strength and wisdom to effect the changes that can bring folks into our perspective.

Which leads me to DonM... Sure, I fully understand where you are coming from and, like you, can walk away from a debate... I thought the "bite me" response was a tad childish on yer part but, what the hey, also gave me a chuckle... And as fir being a musican, I purhased my D-18 *new* in 1968 and have the certificate from Martin in my safety deposit box.... I had been playin' folk music for several years when I made that *biggie* purchase...

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:07 AM

"Bottom line, we're killin' 20 Iraqis, most of them civilians, fir every US troop killed..." Bobert - please share with us where you got this statistic.

Now, everybody, settle down. I didn't start this thread for all of you to start name-calling and finger-pointing. I started it because it was breaking news; and as we have been discussing the wrongs of our people against their people, I thought equal time should be accorded to the wrongs of their people against our people.

Perhaps we could discuss this like adults?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:35 AM

"Perhaps we could discuss this like adults?"

I absolutely agree with you there Kim - except that "like adults" tends in practice to typically mean being bloody-minded and aggressive and hypocritcal, so we are discussing it like adults already.

So perhaps we could instead try and discuss it like level-headed and rational human beings, recognising that just because we disagree with each other, slanging each other off is not helpful. (Not even when in a fit of anger one of us has said something exceptionally stupid.)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:39 AM

I'm with Rapaire.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: SueB
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:39 AM

I know what "our people" is supposed to mean, but what is "their people" supposed to mean? Are you referring specifically to the unidentified men in the video, or the Iraqi people, or who? Are all people from the Middle East supposed to be terrorists now?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:44 AM

We must take into account, particularly in the wake of the Iraqi prisoner scandal, how dehumanized people become by the violence and injustices of having a war waged on them.

I'm not saying they can't help it. I am saying that war dehumanizes everyone it touches, and a large part of the problem with American-led warfare, is that it never directly touches us. And just look at what we became in the wake of 9/11, when the violence did directly touch us: what we are now. A society with curtailed civil liberties, our government spying on all of us, and aggressive, monstrous bullies to the rest of the world, whom our government and too many of our citizens hold in contempt.

We are isolated, mean, angry, and bitter, and we are taking it out on the world, innocent or guilty.

That isn't a very admirable place for the richest, most powerful democratic society the world has ever known, now is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Amos
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:37 AM

Beheading was once -- in some cultures -- a much more common treatment. It is no more barbarous than execution by firing squad, or a single bullet in the back of a head, or any of the other wantonly cruel solutions people have resorted to over centuries.
I concur with Doug that the desperate murder of an innocent bystander as a dramatic political gesture, as this seems to be, is below the norm of human conduct and is barbaric. The torture of Iraqi prisioners is also barbaric -- the same insane rage to a lesser degree. To put things in perspective the entire assault against Iraq, which may have had more to do with Elf-Acquitaine oil contracts with Saddam Hussein than with freedom, has been barbaric and brought about the deaths of hundreds ands hundreds of non-combatant men, women and children. One beheading may be more dramatic, but in the overall scale it is a small gesture, if an insane one. The blood on Bush's hands outweighs it a thousand times.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: MarkS
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:39 AM

Don
Horst Wessel was a German guy who was elevated to the status for folk hero by the Nazis. I dont remember exactly what he did, but the "Horst Wessel Song" became a Nazi anthem.
I am not sure why the story is relevant to this discussion except that maybe the poster thinks Berg might be an equvalent.
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:39 AM

Hi Again Sue,

That us and them I speak of are the universal us and them. Not a specific us and them. I have never stated, thought, implied or left open to interpretation that I felt tall of the people in the middle east are terrorists or enemies. I think you read my comments and heard what your particular feelings wanted to hear. I am really a nice guy. Honest.

Hey Bobert, It was childish wasn't it...and I chuckled as I wrote it.

And I too am tired of this thread. It is serving no purpose and making us talk through emotion rather than reason.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:43 AM

Sue, settle down. By "Their People" I meant specifically the opposing force fighting against us, not all Iraqis, and not everyone in the Middle East. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

The whole situation reminds me of the Indian Wars in the US in the 19th century. The regular Army was faced with an opposing force of a different culture & a different mindset - a force that wasn't going to fight back on the US Army's terms. Likewise the terrorists are of a different culture, and they don't fight on our terms either.

The local news interviewed some Iraqi immigrants who agreed that the prison scandal was indeed a tragedy, however they were quick to remind the reporter that the people being tortured & abused were the same people who tortured & abused innocent citizens. Now, I don't bring that up to condone any of the atrocities that have happened at the hands of our own soldiers. I bring it up to illustrate my previous point that many people in their culture have a specific viewpoint about these things that may be very different from ours.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Java
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:00 AM

" It is no more barbarous than execution by firing squad"

With a kitchen knife?

This wasn't one blow with a razor sharp sword. Watch the video, vomit, then reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: ToulouseCruise
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:06 AM

I was reading this quickly and although I am not going to enter into the debate, I will advise that there are some photos taken from that video available on a nationally known website. If you would like the link to that, you may email me at [e-mail].

I am choosing not to put the link here due to its graphic content by my own choice. I am probably going to start a debate in itself whether I should be a) promoting these graphic photos; or b) censoring information by not showing the link directly here. My intention is not to start a debate or anything, merely to provide a link for those who really want it -- meaning you have to email me instead of just hitting a blue clicky.

Brian.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Bobert
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:20 AM

Kim:

The ratio is based on reports of over 10,000 Iriqi deaths... These numbers have been reported by Pacifica, I've heard the numbers on C-Span. You read the newspapers and hear 58 Iraqis killed, 2 marines also killed. Over 30,000 bombs were dropped on Iraq during th invasion alone. This was reported in the Wsahington Post several months ago. Throw in the millions of rounds of tank, mortar, artillery and small arms rounds being fired at Iraqis in the last year, the 10,000 figure is probably way, way low. I mean, if I were the commander in chief and after all that fire power had been unleashed in a country the size of Oklahoma and my top general came to me me and said, "Well, Mr President, we got about 10,000 of them Iraqis.", we''.... I would have fired him. With that kind of money you could have privatized the invasion to the Mafia and have a much greated Iraqi body count.

So when you take the 700 Americans killed, the 20 to 1 figure is probably very conservative...There have also been reports from some of the same sources that I mentioned above that the civilian casualties are running at 90%... Now, as terrible 9/11 was to America, try to comprehend how the Iraqis really feel about the US invasion... And please spare us all the bogus polls that were taken. They are to any thinking person absolutely rediculous...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:20 AM

I understand that it happened; I don't need to look at pictures of it happening. Some may feel that looking at the pictures is the only way to truly understand the gravity of the act. I respect that, but I also suspect that there are a good number of people who will look at the pictures for a ghoulish thrill. I'll pass.

I think Doug, Kim, and a number of our frequent posters to this and other threads have been around this forum long enough that we shoudl all know what they mean. I can confidently say that Doug does not view all Iraqis, or all people from the middle east, as sub-human, but that characterization of the perpetrators of this horrible act was intended to communicate his revulsion at what they have done. Responding to his post by calling him a Nazi and other such insults is really vile.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:51 AM

DougR, I don't equate the soldiers who "abused" prisoners in that prison with the people who cut off this man's head.

I equate a government (and the nation that supports it) who kill innocent women, children, and old men for money (oil).

If they're subhuman, then so are we.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: barrygeo
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:54 AM

Amazing how much terror, fear, hatred and in-fighting you can create with a kitchen knife a video camera and the internet. You don't need a laser guided multi-million dollar high tech bomb.
Thats why the terrorists (and thats not the guy with the knife, he's just a conveniant psycho - its the guy who thought up the idea of the video) wont be defeated even by the might of the US forces.
Only by addressing the injustice (real or perceived) can a stop be put to this horror. I see no evidence that the developed world wants to enter into dialogue on the regional problems in the middle east.
Until some real efforts are made at reconciliation in the region be prepared for more terror.
It took us 30 years to figure it out in Ireland. Similar story in South Africa and the Basque region. The Russians had to pull out of Afghanistan with their tails between their legs.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:54 AM

" think Doug, Kim, and a number of our frequent posters to this and other threads have been around this forum long enough that we shoudl all know what they mean."

That assumption is a big mistake.

As to whether not providing links to the photos is censorship--hey people, there is a difference between intentionally ignoring, benignly neglecting, and actively censoring. I do hope everyone here realizes anyone with decent internet access can view anything currently making the rounds online.

Some of the photographs and videos are authentic and did need to be viewed by Americans (like the prisoner abuse photos released thus far). Some photos/videos don't need to be viewed but will be because of the pornographic titillation factors involved (like the beheading photos and videos). Finally, some just needs to be ignored, like the doctored military porn/rape photos linked to in another thread, that is nothing more than recycled porn updated with the "Iraqi prisoner abuse" factor to extend it's internet shelf life.

We need to be vigilant, discerning and discriminating about what is valid, and what is sensationalized right now, because we are being bombarded with images: some are propaganda, some are legitimate news, and some are opportunistic sadism and pornography.

The prison abuse scandal is one we needed to learn about to shine the light into the darkness of what too many of our troops were becoming in Iraq, to prevent the situation from worsening, and hopefully prevent future atrocities. Most Americans would have ignored the stories about prisoner abuse if not for the photographic evidence, IMO. So it was essential that they be released, and that we look critically at them.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 10:58 AM

It's worth remembering that, in at least one case, the torture ended in the death of the prisoner. In the words of Sergeant Frederick: "They stressed him out so bad that the man passed away."

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: SueB
Date: 12 May 04 - 11:06 AM

As far as we know, Kim, it wasn't the Iraqi "opposing forces" who are responsible for the beheading. It looks like it might have been Al-Qaeda sponsored terrorists, and they may not even have been Iraqis at all.

I think it's an important question: WHO is the enemy?

Is it Martin Gibson's "maggot Arabs"?
Is it DougR's "subhuman" whoever the hell he's talking about?
Is it Don's "universal THEM" whoever them is, as long as it's not US?

Does anyone remember the old POGO cartoon, that says,
"I has found the enemy, and they is us."


PS - Don - I have reread your posts, and I realize that you have said some things I agree with - I was distracted by your pithy insults to people I thought were asking some interesting and necessary questions. I don't know if you realize this, but an insult is no less an insult when the deliverer is privately laughing.
Example: You're a doo-doo head! Hahaha! Just kidding! See what I mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 04 - 11:18 AM

It's worth remembering that, in at least one case, the torture ended in the death of the prisoner. In the words of Sergeant Frederick: "They stressed him out so bad that the man passed away."

Anybody want to watch the video of that? Death by slow torture at the hands of the "liberators"?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 04 - 11:28 AM

Or the video of our troops firing live rounds of ammunition (not plastic bullets) into crowds of rioting prisoners, most of whom fell in the category of the 90% of prisoners who were wrongfully detained?

After all, a bunch of forceably isolated, humiliated Iraqi men with a lot of bottled up anger, armed with rocks and stones, and contained in small space can be quite dangerous. But words like bloodbath do come to mind. Remember Attica and Nelson Rockefeller's decision to bomb the prison to quell the rioting? The MOVE rowhouses in Philly? The firestorm at Waco?

If we treat Americans under our media microscopes like that, what atrocities do you suppose we are capable of when no one is looking, no one seems to be in charge, and the pressure from your fellow troops to conform to the group committing atrocities can easily be understood to be stand with us or you are a dead man/woman?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: sledge
Date: 12 May 04 - 11:50 AM

Cold and calous yes, Evil quite possibly but Subhuman, not so in my books, start using that kind thinking and how long till the "einsatsgruppen" start sifting out the undesirables and where do they stop.

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:15 PM

Is Al-Qaeda not an opposing force? And furthermore, does it really matter what country the terrorists are from? This particular group of people kidnapped a man and took his head off, and meant for everyone to see it. It is a vile crime regardless of anyone's nationality.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Nerd
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:25 PM

Kim C, sorry if I jumped to conclusions.

DougR, I can't agree that this was "subhuman" or even as someone else said "medieval." Not because I have a higher opinion than you of the actions, but because I prefer to be honest about human behavior. In ancient times, the Romans crucified thousands. In medieval times, the inquisition committed horrible acts of execution on essentially innocent people, and so did practically every secular authority. In eighteenth century France, supposedly the height of culture of civilization, beheading was a common form of execution, and many of the victims had committed no crimes. In nineteenth century England, being "pressed into service" (ie kidnapped) meant that you had gone from life in a parliamentary monarchy to an absolute autocracy, where your human rights could be taken away on a whim. If you rebelled, you could be "flogged round the fleet," beaten to death with a cat-o-nine-tails while seized to the gratings of a succession of different vessels (similar to what the Romans did to Jesus). Black men have been lynched by southern whites within living memory. Don't forget slavery, the holocaust, "ethnic cleansing."

Human life, in most places and most times, has been violent. Our thin veneer of a hundred years or so of politeness in Western Europe and America falls away pretty quickly in wartime; witness the atrocities admitted by American soldiers in Viet Nam, and the atrocities carried out by the VC as well.

This beheading was pretty violent, no question. It was immoral, profane, disgusting.

Unfortunately, it was also a hundred percent human.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:45 PM

As I read through this whole thread, Don Meixner and DougR make the most sense and I agree with them.

The terrorists who did this are our worst enemy.

Chanting and praising Allah while performing this act cannot be made sensible for any reason. Blaming Bush will never stop their hate for us. It never did and it never will.

And Lupus Rex, you have a lot of fucking nerve calling a Jew who had relatives in concentration camps Hitler. Go fuck your left nostril through your right one, douchebag.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Bobert
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:57 PM

And just a reminder that the beheading wouldn't have taken place if George Bush had told Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle the same thing that Bill Clinton told them... "Get out of my office..."...

This is a war of *choice*. No two ways about it so Bush and his boys are very much responsible for what we are seeing... They have lied to use about their motives for their war of choice. They have changed their story over and over to cover their real motives: oil and ratings. Well, more and more folks are figuring it out. The Repubs meanwhile are busy getting as many black voters disenfranshised in hopes of stealing yet another election...

I may not like Kerry enough to vote for him but he was right on the money in his candid remark about this current batch being a bunch of liars...

.... and I'd throw in, accomplices to lots and lots of murders, including that of Nicolas Berg...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:03 PM

Show me a batch of politicians that ISN'T a bunch of liars.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:10 PM

El Greko - your first post is a masterpiece, I applaud you for your calm and well reasoned piece which stands out like a beacon against some of the OTT stuff here.

I'm desperately saddened but not at all surprised by this killing, and by the manner of execution. I feel for him, his terror and suffering, and for the suffering of his family and friends. And I feel the same for all human beings who have suffered as a result of the actions of both the terrorists and those who claim to wage war on terror. A death is a death and it hurts the same, irrespective of which side of the fence you're sitting on.

The fact is that the killing of this young man, its method and recording, was done deliberately to create the kind of internal conflict amongst 'Westerners' that we've seen in this thread. Whatever the aims of Al Q'aeda are (and I for one am not absolutely clear on that because they seem to change as time goes by) they know that they cannot bring them about by straightforward force of arms, so they commit their atrocities in order to foment unrest within the nations they perceive as their enemies. The strategy is already working well - they sucked the US and UK into two vastly expensive, unjustified and unwinnable 'wars', they changed the course of the Spanish election and brought the Goverment down, and they may very soon bring about the downfall of the US President and the UK Government. Not bad for a bunch of 'Subhumans' (not my word BTW - I only use it to indicate a sense of irony).

We ('The West', whatever you like to call it) have chosen the wrong path at every turn. We gave the terrorists (Al Q'aeda, whoever) and their associate organisations the excuse for the USS Cole, 9/11, Madrid et al, and we're still doing it.

And what next? What if the Coalition forces (as is being demanded by many, including a significant number of Mudcatters) withdraw from Afghanistan and Iraq, and persuade Israel to get the hell out of Palestine? Does anyone really believe that Osama and his band of Good Ole Buddies will pack it in, go back to their Oases and spend the rest of their days racing camels to entertain themselves, or that Iraq will miraculously be renewed as a peaceful Garden of Eden for its dreadfully ill-treated people? Like the jungle tiger who raids the village, 'they' have tasted human flesh and they like it - they won't go away, they'll just find another set of 'aims', another 'cause', more 'demands' to justify their atrocities.

We've dug a big hole, filled it with our own excrement, and dived head-first into it. God help us, someone has to. IMOH.

Johnny (no smiley face)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:38 PM

I believe beheading is currently the standard foem of capital punishment in quite a few countries, is it not? And when did the French stop using the guillotine?- some time in the 20th C., no? not all that long ago.

As several others have said, an execution- by gas, by electrocution, by hanging, by beheading by firing squad- is an execution. No diffenence, worth the name.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:42 PM

Well said, Johnny.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:54 PM

It's hard to stay balanced on this.

Strolling Johnny, you start off rightly thanking El Greko for his "calm and well reasoned piece", and quote right - but then before your post is ended you are slipping into "...go back to their Oases and spend the rest of their days racing camels to entertain themselves". And that is essentially racist language, even when not used by a racist, as I am sure is the case here.

In wars people do horrible things. Inevitably there's a tendency to concentrate on the horrible things that are done by one side, and to comfort ourselves that these are intrinsically worse than the things done by the other. But the closer you get to it, the harder it is to be sure about that, and it doesn't really matter that much.

What we should never under any circumstances do is use the crimes and atrocities committed by one side as a justification for the crimes and atrocities of the other - in the way that the butchers of that poor young man have tried to do, and in the way that some of the posts in this thread, and the comment pieces in some of the media have attempted to do, in reverse.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:55 PM

"And furthermore, does it really matter what country the terrorists are from?"

Yes it does. A great deal. If you don't understand WHY it matters a great deal, then you aren't paying very close attention.

"Show me a batch of politicians that ISN'T a bunch of liars."

It isn't just about the lying. It is also about who is to blame for this unholy mess in Iraq. It is about who is to blame for absolutely no oversight of the military (that is Congress' job, BTW) since 9/11. It is about who ordered that military intelligence, et al directly violate the Geneva Conventions in order to torture the confessions the Bush administration wanted from Iraqis to "prove" this US sponsored and sanctioned state terrorism is "morally" right, when it is clear it is ethically very, very wrong.

Right wing morals be damned, I say, be they the morality of right wing Republicans in the US, or the morality of the right wing Islamic terrorists in the Middle East.

End the carnage. Now.