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BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans

DonMeixner 12 May 04 - 09:39 AM
MarkS 12 May 04 - 09:39 AM
Amos 12 May 04 - 09:37 AM
GUEST 12 May 04 - 08:44 AM
SueB 12 May 04 - 08:39 AM
artbrooks 12 May 04 - 08:39 AM
McGrath of Harlow 12 May 04 - 08:35 AM
Kim C 12 May 04 - 08:07 AM
Bobert 12 May 04 - 08:06 AM
George Papavgeris 12 May 04 - 07:53 AM
GUEST 12 May 04 - 07:43 AM
George Papavgeris 12 May 04 - 07:37 AM
Greg F. 12 May 04 - 07:20 AM
McGrath of Harlow 12 May 04 - 06:53 AM
George Papavgeris 12 May 04 - 05:53 AM
GUEST 12 May 04 - 05:47 AM
Wolfgang 12 May 04 - 04:41 AM
GUEST 12 May 04 - 04:02 AM
George Papavgeris 12 May 04 - 03:52 AM
Ebbie 12 May 04 - 02:40 AM
GUEST,Clint Keller 12 May 04 - 01:54 AM
dianavan 12 May 04 - 01:30 AM
DougR 12 May 04 - 01:20 AM
LadyJean 12 May 04 - 12:35 AM
DonMeixner 12 May 04 - 12:19 AM
Mooh 12 May 04 - 12:05 AM
SueB 11 May 04 - 11:53 PM
DonMeixner 11 May 04 - 11:24 PM
DonMeixner 11 May 04 - 11:03 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 11 May 04 - 10:12 PM
Bobert 11 May 04 - 10:12 PM
GUEST 11 May 04 - 10:12 PM
Ebbie 11 May 04 - 10:08 PM
Chief Chaos 11 May 04 - 10:00 PM
GUEST,Julia 11 May 04 - 09:41 PM
DonMeixner 11 May 04 - 09:41 PM
dianavan 11 May 04 - 09:38 PM
GUEST 11 May 04 - 09:31 PM
dianavan 11 May 04 - 09:29 PM
Ebbie 11 May 04 - 08:59 PM
GUEST 11 May 04 - 08:47 PM
Charley Noble 11 May 04 - 08:46 PM
CarolC 11 May 04 - 08:41 PM
Bobert 11 May 04 - 08:24 PM
MarkS 11 May 04 - 08:07 PM
Bobert 11 May 04 - 08:04 PM
pdq 11 May 04 - 08:01 PM
Jim McCallan 11 May 04 - 07:54 PM
Peace 11 May 04 - 07:51 PM
Lepus Rex 11 May 04 - 07:49 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:39 AM

Hi Again Sue,

That us and them I speak of are the universal us and them. Not a specific us and them. I have never stated, thought, implied or left open to interpretation that I felt tall of the people in the middle east are terrorists or enemies. I think you read my comments and heard what your particular feelings wanted to hear. I am really a nice guy. Honest.

Hey Bobert, It was childish wasn't it...and I chuckled as I wrote it.

And I too am tired of this thread. It is serving no purpose and making us talk through emotion rather than reason.

Don


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: MarkS
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:39 AM

Don
Horst Wessel was a German guy who was elevated to the status for folk hero by the Nazis. I dont remember exactly what he did, but the "Horst Wessel Song" became a Nazi anthem.
I am not sure why the story is relevant to this discussion except that maybe the poster thinks Berg might be an equvalent.
Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Amos
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:37 AM

Beheading was once -- in some cultures -- a much more common treatment. It is no more barbarous than execution by firing squad, or a single bullet in the back of a head, or any of the other wantonly cruel solutions people have resorted to over centuries.
I concur with Doug that the desperate murder of an innocent bystander as a dramatic political gesture, as this seems to be, is below the norm of human conduct and is barbaric. The torture of Iraqi prisioners is also barbaric -- the same insane rage to a lesser degree. To put things in perspective the entire assault against Iraq, which may have had more to do with Elf-Acquitaine oil contracts with Saddam Hussein than with freedom, has been barbaric and brought about the deaths of hundreds ands hundreds of non-combatant men, women and children. One beheading may be more dramatic, but in the overall scale it is a small gesture, if an insane one. The blood on Bush's hands outweighs it a thousand times.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:44 AM

We must take into account, particularly in the wake of the Iraqi prisoner scandal, how dehumanized people become by the violence and injustices of having a war waged on them.

I'm not saying they can't help it. I am saying that war dehumanizes everyone it touches, and a large part of the problem with American-led warfare, is that it never directly touches us. And just look at what we became in the wake of 9/11, when the violence did directly touch us: what we are now. A society with curtailed civil liberties, our government spying on all of us, and aggressive, monstrous bullies to the rest of the world, whom our government and too many of our citizens hold in contempt.

We are isolated, mean, angry, and bitter, and we are taking it out on the world, innocent or guilty.

That isn't a very admirable place for the richest, most powerful democratic society the world has ever known, now is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: SueB
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:39 AM

I know what "our people" is supposed to mean, but what is "their people" supposed to mean? Are you referring specifically to the unidentified men in the video, or the Iraqi people, or who? Are all people from the Middle East supposed to be terrorists now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:39 AM

I'm with Rapaire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:35 AM

"Perhaps we could discuss this like adults?"

I absolutely agree with you there Kim - except that "like adults" tends in practice to typically mean being bloody-minded and aggressive and hypocritcal, so we are discussing it like adults already.

So perhaps we could instead try and discuss it like level-headed and rational human beings, recognising that just because we disagree with each other, slanging each other off is not helpful. (Not even when in a fit of anger one of us has said something exceptionally stupid.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:07 AM

"Bottom line, we're killin' 20 Iraqis, most of them civilians, fir every US troop killed..." Bobert - please share with us where you got this statistic.

Now, everybody, settle down. I didn't start this thread for all of you to start name-calling and finger-pointing. I started it because it was breaking news; and as we have been discussing the wrongs of our people against their people, I thought equal time should be accorded to the wrongs of their people against our people.

Perhaps we could discuss this like adults?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Bobert
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:06 AM

"We are facing an enemy like we have never known", Dougie?

That could have also come from the mouth of the average Iraqi man-on-the-street... You're only looking at whaqt is going down from your perspective. That's why wars happen in the first place. And I might add that that is why most wars are lost... When we loose the ability to at least make an effort to see things the ways others do, then we really loose the strength and wisdom to effect the changes that can bring folks into our perspective.

Which leads me to DonM... Sure, I fully understand where you are coming from and, like you, can walk away from a debate... I thought the "bite me" response was a tad childish on yer part but, what the hey, also gave me a chuckle... And as fir being a musican, I purhased my D-18 *new* in 1968 and have the certificate from Martin in my safety deposit box.... I had been playin' folk music for several years when I made that *biggie* purchase...

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 May 04 - 07:53 AM

101% with you, GUEST.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 04 - 07:43 AM

I refuse to create hierarchies of best death/worst death. I see all these needless deaths as horrific, whether the death is the televised execution of an American civilian, or the silent, hidden death of an Iraqi child bleeding to death from schrapnel injuries caused by American bombings.

What we are seeing over and over here, are people over-valuing the lives of Americans and under-valuing the lives of the Iraqis.

Which is probably the most horrific aspect of this tragic war. We all become less human as a result of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 May 04 - 07:37 AM

Greg F, please read my post that followed Doug's and please don't add to the sharp tones of this thread. Let's pipe down, is what I was saying. Can we do that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 May 04 - 07:20 AM

NOW you're talkin' Dougie! Untermenschen! I knew you had it in you. Lets get 'em all rounded up into extermination camps;
then we can get you a job over there pouring Zyklon-B. Or would you rather tend one of the crematoria?


Don: Put on Paxton's Willing Conscript & listen to it a couple of times thru.


Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 06:53 AM

The paradoxical thing is that this was the first bit of "good" news for the Bush camp in weeks. It takes the torture stuff off the front pages (in the places where it ever was actually on the front pages).

It even provides a kind of justification, or at least mitigation, of that kind of thing - "They are subhuman, and in my opinion deserve no special consideration if captured"; "How in the hell can you folks equate the actions of the young American soldiers who mistreated Iraqi prisoners with the bastards that summarily cut the head off of an innocent young man before a television camera?"

I doubt if the people who murdered this young man had any conscious intetion of throwing Bush a lifeline - I think it's more likely that they wanted to bring about retaliations which would inevitably hit the wrong people, and increase the level of hatred against the occupiers - but that is precisely what they have done. And I am sure that, at any any higher levels of Al Qaeda planning and leadership, they will be very happy about this aspect, sincs Bush is surely their prime weapon in achieving their long-term goals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 May 04 - 05:53 AM

Agree, GUEST, but I don't think anyone equated, or indeed compared the two. Nor should they. They are both abhorrent, full stop.

There is no scale for "Thou shalt not...".


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 04 - 05:47 AM

We are all agreed that the Americans should never have been in Iraq, but I don't accept that killing Iraqi civilians is morally equivalent to beheading. This sounds neat on the surface, but one occurs in the heat of battle, and is regretted (if only in a cynical way because of the bad publicity) and the other is a deliberate, concious, cold-blooded act. One is downplayed and covered up if at all possible, showing suitable shame, guilt and remorse; the other is proudly boasted of, and recorded on a video - a medieval state of mind recorded on modern technology. Islam, anyone?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:41 AM

About a month ago we had a thread about euphemisms.

Many agreed that the government(s) often use euphemisms (collateral damage etc.) instead of calling it what it is.

The same frame of mind that leads people in governments to use euphemisms can be studied here in some of the posts. 'Unfortunate' for this death qualifies as a euphemism of the worst kind. Don't complain when you see in others what you are not willing to avoid yourself.

No person should ever be called 'subhuman' under any circumstances, but a particular act or treatment may be called 'subhuman'. Don makes this difference.

Lepus, I'm sure you have no difficulties explaining yourself that typing Heil Hitler, dude....You're not helping your cause with creepy Nazi-like statements such as this in the same post is no contradiction. But as someone who has called another Mudcatter subhuman fucktard you should have a bit more tolerance and understanding for others using this expression than you have shown here lest we get the impression that you have different standards who may be called subhuman.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:02 AM

Only the misinformation

Great post, El Greko


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 May 04 - 03:52 AM

Sad, very sad, the way we turn on each other over these events. If we folkies, supposedly more open-minded and better educated than others, cannot keep our calm, what chance does the wider community have?

Can we agree on a few salient points and stop asking each other to "bite us" or calling each other names in our frustration? I offer:

1. Mr Berg's act in going to Iraq at all, whatever his motives, was foolish. He may or may not have been a foolish man, but this time he got it wrong.
2. Nevertheless, he did not deserve to die for this foolish act. Much less, to die in such a way.
3. The documented maltreatment/abuse/torture of Iraqi prisoners by coalition soldiers and their contractors is despicable, and the arm of justice needs to reach all of those who bear responsibility up and down the chain. Whoever they are. I am willing to wait for the trials and inquiries to bring their verdict, now that it is in the public domain. And I am worried that there may be more such acts that have not seen the light of day yet.
4. While we do not condone the above two sets of acts, neither are we surprised that they are raising the stakes by escalating the violence perpetrated (and perceived) and we are likely to see much worse to come down the line.

Now, those four points alone should find us all in agreement, I hope. If not, I would really worry. I venture to offer a few more:

5. The Iraqi prisoners (those that have been abused/tortured and others) are either not involved in perpetrating Saddam's excesses and horrors, and even if some of them have been involved in such, their involvement is not yet proven - otherwise they would be under trial/sentence.
6. The coalition was not invited to liberate Iraq. The openly stated motives for attacking Iraq at all (WMDs, non-compliance with the 17 UN resolutions) have been de facto proven now to be false (WMDs - listen to the inspectors, not to me) or insufficient by themselves (the UN did not support an attack on Iraq on the basis of the non-compliance alone). The Al Qaeda links of the Iraqi state have not been proven either, though Al Qaeda undoubtedly operates in Iraq.
7. There is no other way to see our armies there than as occupying forces, therefore. Some may believe that this is till for the good - others doubt our intentions. The doubters include many of the Iraqi people.
8. Most "hearts and minds" efforts in Iraq have failed so far, as a result of 7 above. And actions like 3 above will certainly make things worse
9. The Iraqi people at large are not subhumans, or animals. They may harbour hatred for the occupying forces, but that is a normal reaction by any people who find themselves in their position.
10. There are those with agendas of their own who try to foment unrest and hatred against the US and UK. Fact. Also unsurprising.
11. There are those with agendas of their own who try to foment hatred against the Iraqis as a nation/people. Fact. Also unsurprising.
12. Religion is often used as a weapon/reason/excuse in such circumstances. So some of those in 10 above blame the "Christian infidels", and some of those in 11 above blame the Muslims. But the causes of all of the above are in fact nothing to do with religion. This is just about fanatics trying to capitalise on the situation.
13. None of the above should be happening.

Now, what does that leave to argue about?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 May 04 - 02:40 AM

"Will you EVER accept the fact that we are facing an enemy unlike any we have ever known? "

But see, DougR, that statement's just not true. These people are human beings, with all the contradictions that implies. Did you ever hear the phrase: "But for the grace of God, there go I"? The fact that you were born on this continent and in this era does not make you - or me - better, it only exposed you to a different culture.

Born there you, in all likelihood, would be shouting alongside your neighbors against the evils of America. If you were younger you might be out there with the hood on your head; if you were there and the age you are today, your heart would probably be sickened unto death at the abuses on both sides. But in either case you would probably feel that the Americans had brought it on themselves. We have no business there. The Iraqis did not commit the 9/11 crimes, nor did the Iraqi people commit the crimes of Saddam Hussein. They suffered under his rule- and now they are suffering under our rule. The difference is that we have no business there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:54 AM

"This act illustrates the kind of enemy we are facing. They are subhuman, and in my opinion deserve no special consideration if captured." DougR

Are all the prisoners in Abu Ghraib this kind of subhuman enemy? All the Iraqis? When you see one how can you tell if he's subhuman or just in the wrong place at the wrong time? Assuming he's not decapitating someone at the time.

Labeling people "subhuman" and treating them that way is one of the roads to hell.

We should treat all people -even villians - decently, not only for their sake but for our sake.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:30 AM

I still wonder why the Americans, once they were through with Mr. Berg, did not insure his safe departure.

In this unlawful war, I wouldn't put anything past the Bush administration. Why did they hold Berg for so long? Did they plant suspicion among the Iraqi population regarding the reasons for Mr. Berg's detention? The answer to these questions we will never know but I do know that I do not believe one word of anything the Bush Administration has to say.

Could it be that this is just another evil way to shift the focus away from the abuse of the Iraqi prisoners? Now, instead of being on the defensive, America is on the offensive again. Bush's war on terrorism is creating terror throughout the world. Bush is evil! For all we know, the unidentified murderers are just some of Bush's mercenaries or more of his "contractors". I would put nothing past these treacherous, war mongers.

My heart aches for the Berg family.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DougR
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:20 AM

My conclusion: many of you folks are just plain sick! You berate me because I referred to the killers of that young man as subhuman? Will you EVER accept the fact that we are facing an enemy unlike any we have ever known? Probably not.

Ebbie: My parents are long dead. Were they alive and had they read your post they would have been sickened by your response. I loved and respected them; they loved and respected me.

How in the hell can you folks equate the actions of the young American soldiers who mistreated Iraqi prisoners with the bastards that summarily cut the head off of an innocent young man before a television camera?

Sick I say. Sick.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: LadyJean
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:35 AM

He was peddling antennae. That's not such a horrible thing to do. I wish somebody had stopped Bush from dragging us into Iraq. I wish American forces had shipped this guy home the minute they caught him.
26 year old males are frequently short on common sense. This guy seems to have been shorter than most.
If his captors had sold him back to the Americans, I would understand.
But they executed a harmless fool. That was a horrible thing to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:19 AM

Hi SueB

I think I'm more puzzled by the defensiveness comment than I am about being a bigot. You and I have not crossed paths before that I am aware of or you'd know my feelings about the US being in Iraq.

So let me introduce myself to you. I am a 53 year old accessibility designer, silversmith, and musican. I have been a life long democrat and have been active the idea of power through peaceful means since I was 16 or so. I've played mainly traditional music for about 30 years but I love cowboy songs and have a fondness for The Sons of The Pioneers.

I have some great old guitars and a nice new one. (How is your new Martin behaving by the way?) And I will share any song I know with anyone who asks. I'll even print the chords if I have too.

I love a good debate and I'll argue politics till I can't talk. I admire anyone who is passionate about their debate, even Bobert tho' I doubt he believes this. And I can walk away from a debate and still like the person I was debating.

I am unaware of simmering toxic stews or any unrelenting hate for my fellow man. The only intolerance I have is for terrorism of any kind. That which is perpetrated on us by them or that which is done by us to them. And I don't believe I have ever been called an "Ilk" before either.

So, now you know about me, sometime if you like, introduce yourself and say "Hi".

Don


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Mooh
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:05 AM

Well, nobody expects them to turn the other cheek...

Neither side here even pretends to "do unto others" and neither side has yet reached the limits of their potential horror. Why should we be surprised? This war makes my heart very tired.

Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: SueB
Date: 11 May 04 - 11:53 PM

The bigotry and defensiveness shown to us by DougR and DonMeixner are shared by more Americans than I'd like to think about. It's scary to realize that there are people walking around with that kind of toxic stew simmering under the surface, just waiting for a target to spew it onto. I don't know why people around here bend over backward all the time to accomodate the views of people like DougR and his ilk. We go to great lengths to say things like "well, I don't agree with your viewpoint, but I *respect* it." What is there here to respect?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 11 May 04 - 11:24 PM

Garg,

Explain the Horst Wessel thing to me. It isn't a term I'm familiar with.

Don


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 11 May 04 - 11:03 PM

Bite me Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 11 May 04 - 10:12 PM

What better choice for a Horst Wessel?

Single - out of work - trying to busk a solo-gig for his attenae company.

Iraqi's don't want him....his parents whine when he is put into protective custody by American Troops....he is released and continues a Quixotic Quest into the hands of the only people who have a use for his poor-sorry-tourist-soul.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Bobert
Date: 11 May 04 - 10:12 PM

No, Don M, since we are the good guys, we never cut folks heads off in public...

Bottom line, we're killin' 20 Iraqis, most of them civilians, fir every US troop killed, but hey, at least we don't have to see the picures of the Iraqi dead....

You do the math, pal...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 04 - 10:12 PM

"And anyone who can honestly say that Berg deserved to die this way for some clouded purpose or to avenge public nudity and unsaved face needs to rethink their own moral culpability to the world at large."

Where did ANYONE in this thread say this man deserved to die?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out this guy put himself in harm's way, now does it? His parents begged him not to go. He had no support in Iraq.

Because his death was horrific doesn't change the fact he shouldn't have been there to begin with, does it?

BTW, we've killed many times more Iraqis than were killed in the 9/11 attacks. When will we have spilled enough blood to sate those of you who believe we are giving the Iraqi "sub-humans" what they never deserved to begin with because, as has been pointed out AGAIN it wasn't the Iraqis, but Saudi terrorists, who were the murderers behind 9/11.

But I guess we just shouldn't confuse some of you with the facts...


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 May 04 - 10:08 PM

Wait. I think 'sub-human' is totally off the point. Beheading for execution these days is more cultural than anything else.

Not too many years ago, Japanese men disemboweled themselves when they perceived themselves as having been dishonored. Was that sub-human? No. The practice to us in the western hemisphere would be totally abhorrent but that is because it has never been part of our culture.

My guess is that to today's generation of Japanese the custom would be considered unacceptable- but the people would be a great deal less shocked if their prime minister disemboweled himself today than we would be if President Bush disemboweled himself over this scandal. Simply because the practice was part of their history.

So. My opinion is that talking and thinking of sub-humanity is a dangerous mindset, indeed. We can do a hell of a lot better than that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 11 May 04 - 10:00 PM

Not to nitpick, but yes, animals do behave this way.
It is well documented that killer whales and cats will often "play with their food" causing serious injury and pain to their prey, allowing them to escape and then recapturing them for more "abuse". It has even been seen that they have left corpses of the animal uneaten where we used to believe that they only killed to obtain food.

I pray for Mr. Berg and his family.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Julia
Date: 11 May 04 - 09:41 PM

HELLO!

The perpetrators of this horrendous thing are not Iraquis

The 3000 victims of 9/11 included a large nummber of foreign nationals including people from the middle east

9/11 was caused by Al Quaeda, NOT Saddam Hussein or the Iraqui people

It is precisely the kind of hysterical misinformation rampant on this thread that perpetuates the violence
And has done for millenia

Animals do not behave this way


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 11 May 04 - 09:41 PM

Lepus wrote,

"Americans and other high-paid westerners going to Iraq to "rebuild the infrastructure," drive trucks, etc., (and their employers, of course, whose profiteering has been widely documented) are there to make large amounts of cash. They're selling their services for many times the price that an Iraqi would be paid, and so are making unreasonable profits from the war. And perhaps unlike in Afghanistan, there are more than enough qualified natives. Just my opinion, of course, but I'd say that makes them profiteers."

Lepus I can't figure any other way to read this than any American working to rebuild Iraq is a War Profiteer. Perhaps when you wrote this you left out a word in a critical spot. I do this all the time.

And I'm sorry gang I gotta agree to a large extent with Doug R. about the sub-human status of anyone who would saw off another man's head for the camera no matter what the reason. If they aren't truly Sub-Human they are behaving in a Sub-Human manner. I draw no distinctions here for purposes of race. There is none to draw, the people in Irag are not a different race from people in Connecticut or some one in Wales. There is no justification to claim one race is superior to another, I don't believe it, I never have.

I don't believe there is a religious allowance here for such actions either. When the Spainish Inquisition allowed such brutality it was because mortals claimed it was the word of God. The same is true with the Muslims, this order came from defective perverted deranged minds. Mortal minds, not Allah or God.

It doesn't matter whether Berg was there to make a killing on the lack of cable TV in Iraq or there to help bring power and light to those who needed it. He was a human being who was treated as
inhumanely as were the people in The World Trade Center. The difference is he was ther by choice and knew there were risks. The people at TWC were at work, risking no more than a paper cut.

It wasn't Iraqi shop keepers or plumbers or Iraqi school teachers or their students who killed Berg. It was faceless terrorists who claim no nationality and weren't brave enough to show their faces in the photos that I have seen of this act who treated this man so inhumanly.

And anyone who can honestly say that Berg deserved to die this way for some clouded purpose or to avenge public nudity and unsaved face needs to rethink their own moral culpability to the world at large.

Donald R. Meixner


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 11 May 04 - 09:38 PM

Next question - What did you think the response to those torture pics would be? Did you really think the Bush apology would make a difference? Who do you think we are dealing with anyway? Rule #1 if you are going to war - know your enemy.

The Bush administration has done more to jeopardize the security of North America than all the acts of terrorism combined. He cares nothing for your well-being or the safety of his troops.

Bush is a war monger who has found himself dangling on the edge of insanity. Unfortunately, he will probably take all of us with him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 04 - 09:31 PM

From the NY Times article:

"American officials and the slain man's family, in West Chester, Pa., identified the victim as Nicholas Berg, 26, who had gone to Iraq on his own looking for contracting work...

The (intelligence) official also took note of Mr. Berg's decision to go to Iraq without an employer. "It was the wrong place for someone without a support structure to be," the intelligence official said...

Mr. Berg's mother told The A.P. that her son had been in Iraq from December to February seeking work rebuilding the country's infrastructure. After a short stay back home, she said, he returned to Iraq in March. He later told them that he had been jailed by Iraqi officials after being stopped at a checkpoint in the northern city of Mosul before he could return home, as planned, on March 30.

"He was arrested and held without due process," his father, Michael, told The Daily Local News of West Chester. "By the time he got out the whole area was inflamed with violence."

And from ABCnews.com:

"Berg's mother said her son was in Iraq as an independent businessman to help rebuild communication antennas. Berg owned a communications equipment company, Prometheus Methods Tower Service Inc., she said. He was in Baghdad from late December to Feb. 1, then returned to Iraq in March, his family said.

The Bergs last heard from their son April 9, when he told his parents he would come home by way of Jordan. Suzanne Berg said that the family had been trying for weeks to learn where their son was, but that federal officials had not been helpful.

"I went through this with them for weeks," she said. "I basically ended up doing most of the investigating myself."

Michael Berg described himself as fervently anti-war, but said his son disagreed. "He was a Bush supporter," Berg said. "He looked at it as bringing democracy to a country that didn't have it."

Michael Berg lashed out at the U.S. military and Bush administration, saying his son might still be alive if he had been allowed to leave the country on March 30, as he had originally planned.

Nick Berg spoke to his parents on March 24 and said he would return home March 30. But he was detained by Iraqi police at a checkpoint in Mosul on March 24. At some point during his 13-day detention, U.S. officials took custody of him, his father said, and he was not allowed to make phone calls or contact a lawyer.

FBI agents visited Berg's parents in West Chester on March 31 and told the family they were trying to confirm their son's identity. On April 5, the Bergs sued the government in federal court in Philadelphia, contending that their son was being held illegally by the U.S. military.

Berg was released the next day, and he told his parents he had not been mistreated. They did not hear from him after April 9."


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 11 May 04 - 09:29 PM

Nobody deserves to be be-headed but there is alot more to this story.

We do know his expertise was communication. We don't know who he worked for. The U.S. military detained him for nearly two weeks without access to a lawyer. It was after he was released that the be-heading took place.

The big question. What was he really doing there?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 May 04 - 08:59 PM

DougR, I cannot fathom that you got that view from the Fox network so I have to accept that you bought into it on your own. Your poor parents.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 04 - 08:47 PM

The man who was beheaded wasn't working with any American entities, military or private contractors, according to the Pentagon. He was running Iraq on his own, had been arrested and detained by our military prior to his release, and according to the nightly news, his father is now apparently blaming the US military for his death.

Does that mean he deserved to die an horrific death? No. But it does mean none of us is out of line when we say, well what the fuck do you expect will happen when you go Ramboing around in a war zone?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 May 04 - 08:46 PM

It's not surprising to me at all, given what we've been doing to Iraqis. But I'm sad about that. And I expect that some people will use this incident to justify in their minds further abuse to Iraqis. When will we ever learn?

(Expletive deleted),
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 11 May 04 - 08:41 PM

DougR, you're a Nazi. I once thought you were an honorable person. My mistake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Bobert
Date: 11 May 04 - 08:24 PM

And, Mark, that would have abeen a perfect time to use the good will for America and its people to forge ahead with even better intellegence to that these folks could be brought to justice, just as the Libians had been from the plane they blew up over Locerbe... But instead of turning this into an opportunity to increase the US's ability to gather intellegence it went into the *wacking* mode instead. Good for Bush's ratings. Very poor for fighting terrorism. Now no one trusts anything we do... Good luck in preventing the next 9/11 now...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: MarkS
Date: 11 May 04 - 08:07 PM

It would be worthwhile to remember that Al Qaeda killed over 3000 Americans not too long ago, before we knew much about them, before Afghanistan, and before Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Bobert
Date: 11 May 04 - 08:04 PM

Sub-human, Dougie? Just how many Iraqi hospitals have you visited lately?

It would appear that due to the US's vast military superiority that it can kill or maim about 20 Iraqis to every one of its own who is killed or maimed.

Now, I guess "sub-human" depends on which side fo thre fence yer sittin'. With over 10,000 civilian Iraqi deeaths, and countin', one might see the US "liberators" as the sub-human...

And, no, I am not condonin' anything the Iraqis do...

Just pointing out that we here in the US don't have clue as to thelevel of human pain and drstruction we have inflicted on the Iraqi people...

Now I'm beginning to see why Bush was so adament on not signin' on to the World Court..

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: pdq
Date: 11 May 04 - 08:01 PM

Lepus Rex...here is a quote from the 'Mabus' forum cited by Jim McCallan:
   "The slaying recalled the kidnapping and videotaped beheading of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl in 2002 in Pakistan. Four Islamic militants have been convicted of kidnapping Pearl, but seven other suspects - including those who allegedly slit his throat - remain at large."


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 May 04 - 07:54 PM

Try here: 'Mabus' Discussion Forum It is a Danish news report, but the beheading itself is not shown

Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Peace
Date: 11 May 04 - 07:51 PM

Lepus: We are arguing semantics. We too are war profiteers by that definition. You are telling me that if I went there to help train structual firefighters, and received pay for doing that, that I would be profiteering. What if I did that for firefighters a few towns away from where I live? Would that make me a profiteer?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 11 May 04 - 07:49 PM

("I didn't say that all Americans working in Iraq is a profiteer" --- "all Americans" = "any American")


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