Lyr Add: Palestine, My Palestine

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 23 May 04 - 07:43 PM

Wow---looks like I misspoke and the good Rabbi Sol was not tired after all.   In fact he has his facts quite correct. Sorry to disappoint Carol C.
      
         I was fairly young at the time of the UN vote that allowed for the creation of the State of Israel (actually listened to the voting with my family on the radio---tubes and all---remember tubes?) What transpired after that is exactly as Rabbi Sol states.

         You, Carol, are correct about one thing. The terrorism of the Irgun. What you fail to mention, however, that unlike Arafat (and I have said this before) Ben Gurion not only stopped it but pulled in the leaders of these "gangs". In fact, Ben Gurion ordered the blowing up of the ship that was supplying the Irgun and ordered the arrest of Begin. Research the Altalana affair. Another eye opener as to who tries to stop brash acts and who does not.

       At this point I should also add that prior to the bombing of the King David Hotel---which housed the British CID (who had raided the Irgun for documents) a number of phone calls were placed to avoid civilian casualties. Apparantely they were ignored for some reason. A reason that, sometimes, seems almost like the reasons our Southerners gave years back about advice from the "colored" folks.
         
         Begin's ascendency, years later, to the position of PM has nothing to do with the aforementioned. Rather, it was a response by the voters---and I emphasize the democratic word "voters" here--to a feeling of vulnerability by the citizenry.   I would also add that the sad demise of Rabin was caused by a fanatic on the Israeli side who is just as pig-headed as the people on the Palestinian side.

          I think we all have to view this in a historical perspective--thinking of all the thousands of years that have elapsed we also have to recognize that Britain tried to ameliorate the situation in, sadly, a non productive way, the Zionists purchases --I re iterate the word "purchased" the land they now inhabit. Any other lands were because of incursions on their territory that were repulsed.

You know what--it is the old cliche---that's war. And, war is sad and I surely wish we all lived in peace.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 23 May 04 - 08:19 PM

Yes, Bill is telling it like it really happened. I would like to add one more thing. It is not about Zionism but about pure Jew hatred. Before there was ever a Zionist movement, a bloody massacre took place in Hebron 1n 1923. Innocent Jewish students from a yeshiva and their families (an entire Jewish community) were brutally murdered by orders of the local Grand Mufti. At that time there was never any threat of Jews stealing Arab lands. When the West Bank & Gaza Strip were controlled by Jordan & Egypt between 1948 and 1967, how come the Palestinians did not ask for their own independent state at that time ? The answer is that they wanted Tel Aviv, Haifa, and all the rest of Israel as well, and to kill all the Jews in the process. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 23 May 04 - 08:27 PM

Well put---Sol.   Therein is the conundrum.   Allow the Palestinans back to land that they sold and also to land that their brethren (Arabs) promised them and could not deliver.

It is unfortunate that they did not welcome their brethren. But, they have their own agendas of religion, oil, and wealth.


The old joke comes to mind about having turned right and not left and look who would have had the oil. Guess who would have loved the Israelis then?   


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 04 - 12:59 AM

In fact he has his facts quite correct. Sorry to disappoint Carol C.

Yes, Bill is telling it like it really happened.

Just because the two of you say so? I'm afraid it doesn't work that way.

The notion that it was all about Jew hatred is one of the most absurd ideas I've ever heard. There were already Jews living in what is now Israel and the Palestinians Occupied Territories, for many centuries. Not only did the Muslims and Christians who shared that land with them not kill them all off, they lived peacefully together on that land. People didn't start hating each other there until the Europeans showed up.

Now, on the subject of the Mufti, he was released from jail and appointed to that post by the British, and against the will of the majority of Arabs in the region who thought he was a thug. The British did this as a part of their tactic of playing one side against the other. I'd say their tactic worked quite well.

I'll address the other points tomorrow.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 04 - 01:13 AM

Ok. Just one more for tonight.

When the West Bank & Gaza Strip were controlled by Jordan & Egypt between 1948 and 1967, how come the Palestinians did not ask for their own independent state at that time ?

My guess would be that it was because the Jordanians and the Egyptians treated them like human beings. And they probably felt protected from Israel by the Jordanians and the Egyptians. At least they weren't being expelled from their land by the Jordanians and the Egyptians.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 04 - 10:09 AM

I almost forgot. It was Britian's first Palestine High Commissioner, Sir Herbert Samuel, who appointed Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini to the position of Mufti. Sir Herbert Samuel was Jewish.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 24 May 04 - 10:50 AM

When the West Bank & Gaza Strip were controlled by Jordan & Egypt between 1948 and 1967, how come the Palestinians did not ask for their own independent state at that time ?

"My guess would be that it was because the Jordanians and the Egyptians treated them like human beings. And they probably felt protected from Israel by the Jordanians and the Egyptians. At least they weren't being expelled from their land by the Jordanians and the Egyptians."

Wrong guess. It was because the Jordanians, Egyptians and other Arab countries were still promising to conquer Israel and "drive the Jews into the sea."

And the Jordanians treated the Palestinians so well that they went to war with each other not long after.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 24 May 04 - 11:05 AM

Now, on the subject of the Mufti, he was released from jail and appointed to that post by the British, and against the will of the majority of Arabs in the region who thought he was a thug. The British did this as a part of their tactic of playing one side against the other. I'd say their tactic worked quite well.

...

I almost forgot. It was Britian's first Palestine High Commissioner, Sir Herbert Samuel, who appointed Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini to the position of Mufti. Sir Herbert Samuel was Jewish.

SInce there was no polling or elections done among the Arabs of Palestine at the time, CarolC is no position to explain "the will of the majority of Arabs." It is not unreasonable to expect in that region, given its violent history of assassination, that he would not have survived for any length of time had he been as unpopular as CarolC decalres.

BTW, Sir Herbert Samuel may have started out with good intentions, but ultimately, he was just a token who took all of his marching orders from London. In addition to appointing the Mufti, he also helped prevent signifigant immigration of Jews to Palestine.

Quite obviously, London appointed Samuel because he was Jewish and completely under the thumb of his political masters at Downing Street.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 24 May 04 - 11:09 AM

One more point that I neglected to mention in my post of 10:50 AM.

When the Egyptians and the Jodanians each made peace settlements with Israel, they washed their hands of the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. They wanted nothing more to do with them.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 04 - 12:16 PM

"It is not unreasonable to expect in that region, given its violent history of assassination, that he would not have survived for any length of time had he been as unpopular..."

In contrast to the USA?

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 24 May 04 - 04:56 PM

I don't think that Guest C was trying to make comparisons with the US. Merely stating a history of the area.   I must say, her facts re: Mufti, Jordan/Egypt, and most of the other points are quite correct.   It is, no doubt, a sad situation.

There is plenty of fault to go around---but surely no fault can be put on Israel for the occurrences after the declaration of statehood following the UN vote and also after ther 1967 war---please read Michael Oren's book. The Syrian and Egyptian double cross of each other and the lies Nasser foisted on his own people at that time.

Yes, Israel has surely made mistakes in years after that. But on a scale it would probably still not be a balance. Who was it--Gen. Sherman who said---War is Hell.   Sadly there is war all over the world and man's inhumanity to man just seems to get worse over the years---and not just in the Middle East.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 24 May 04 - 04:58 PM

Remember what happened to those who really tried to make peace. King Hussein's father (King Abdullah), and more recently Anwar Sadat. They don't seem to live very long. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 May 04 - 05:25 PM

So, Carol C. the Rabbi doesn't know what he is talking about right?

I would trust that the majority on this board would venture to say that he has much more credibility and is much closer to the truth of the situation then you are.

Your anti-Israel campaign here has just about played itself out.

"The notion that it was all about Jew hatred is one of the most absurd ideas I've ever heard"

This statement you made rates as one of the most ignorant I have ever read.

You are losing all the arguements, CarolC.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 04 - 06:04 PM

Remember what happened to those who really tried to make peace

You missed out Yitzhak Rabin there, Rabbi-Sol. And Count Bernardotte in 1948.

And the peace activists who have been shot by the IDF.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 24 May 04 - 06:17 PM

Carol C : I used the term "Israelis"---you persist in using the term "Jews". There is a difference--and there is also significant symbolism in your using that terminology.

          You have also not mentioned the rioting that left many--Jews that lived in Palestine (its name at the time--hence my use of the term at this point) dead. Many years prior to the British involvement.
   
          I won't go back to the British involvement since it has been ably covered. In fact one can see parallels to U S involvement in certain foreign governments and doing so under very cloudy pretexts. It is a stretch to make the comparison, I grant you, but that is the sad history of humankind.

Bill H

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 04 - 06:31 PM

Wrong guess. It was because the Jordanians, Egyptians and other Arab countries were still promising to conquer Israel and "drive the Jews into the sea."

And the Jordanians treated the Palestinians so well that they went to war with each other not long after.

In this case you are the one who is wrong. At least about the intentions of the Jordanians...

"The real question about the Jewish Agency-Hashemite agreement is not whether it existed but what happened to it in the course of the Israeli-Jordanian battles of May-July 1948. Clearly, it partially unravelled in April 1948 under the impact of the Haganah's military successes, the gradual disintegration of Palestinian society, and the Dayr Yasin massacre. 'Abdallah felt unable to stand aside or to break ranks publicly with the other Arab leaders.

But did he really renege on the agreement? ...On 10 May 1948 Ben-Gurion sent Golda Meir to meet 'Abdallah once again in a last-ditch effort to avert a Yishuv-Hashemite clash. Returning to Tel Aviv, she reported to the Mapai Central Committee: "We met [on 10 May] amicably. He is very worried and looks terrible. He did not deny that there had been talk and understanding between us about a desirable arrangement, namely that he would take the Arab part [of Palestine]. . . . "But 'Abdallah had said that he could now, on 10 May, only offer the Jews "autonomy" within an enlarged Hashemite kingdom. He added that while he was not interested in invading the areas allocated for Jewish statehood, the situation was volatile. But he voiced the hope that Jordan and the Yishuv would conclude a peace agreement once the dust had settled.(16)

On 15 May the Arab Legion, along with the other Arab armies, invaded Palestine. But far from unravelling, the agreement, at least in 'Abdallah's mind, appeared to hold fast. 'Abdallah's troops kept meticulously to the 17 November 1947 scenario: At no point in May, or thereafter, did the Arab Legion attack the Jewish state's territory. The Legion occupied the northern half of the West Bank and advanced as far westward as Latrun, Lydda, and Ramla (all UN-allocated Arab areas); and, acceding to local Arab pressures, drove into (Arab) East Jerusalem, essentially to secure the area (and its holy sites, including 'Abdallah's father's tomb on the Temple Mount) against Jewish conquest. But Jerusalem, allocated by the United Nations partition resolution neither to Jew nor to Arab, had not been covered in the Meir-'Abdallah agreement. Moreover, apart from securing the Old City (including conquering its Jewish Quarter), the Legion had refrained from attacking Jewish positions and areas (except for forays around the Mandelbaum Gate and the Notre Dame Monastery designed to safeguard the Legion's line of communication from Ramallah into the city).

No doubt, 'Abdallah was not motivated solely by his adherence to the agreement. His army was small, numbering only some 7,500-9,000 troops at the start of hostilities, and he hardly had enough soldiers to secure the West Bank, let alone attempt to conquer Jewish state territory or fight in costly street battles in West Jerusalem. Moreover, the British had warned him against attacking the Jewish state (see below), and he had promised to refrain from doing so.

Before 15 May, various Jewish officials - Yaacov Shimoni, Moshe Shertok (Sharett), etc. - feared that 'Abdallah might attack the Jewish state nonetheless ("Can any Arab be trusted?"). But in effect, when it came to brass tacks, 'Abdallah adhered strictly to the letter and spirit of the agreement. Rather, it was the Jews who broke it when the Haganah/IDF repeatedly attacked the Legion in Latrun (in late May and June), in Lydda-Ramla (in July), and near Tarqumiya (October). It was Ben-Gurion - because he sought to lift the siege of Jerusalem and expand Jewish territorial holdings beyond what the UN had earmarked - who violated it."

http://www.angeltowns.com/members/palestine/articles/Morris.htm

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 04 - 06:36 PM

This is the "agreement" that is referred to in the quote in my last post:

"Shlaim, in his well-argued, generally well-founded book had maintained that (a) years of Zionist-Hashemite contacts and shared political interests had resulted, in 1946-47, in the conclusion of an unwritten agreement between the leadership of the Yishuv and 'Abdallah, king of Jordan, not to fight each other but to split Palestine between them, with the Hashemites (rather than the Palestinians) receiving what is today called the West Bank, and eventually to make peace; (b) in early 1948, Britain tacitly approved the Yishuv-Hashemite agreement by supporting a Jordanian takeover of the West Bank (rather than the creation in that territory of an independent, Husayni-led Palestinian state, as the UN General Assembly had ruled), and cautioned 'Abdallah not to attack the Jewish state; (c) the Yishuv-Hashemite agreement, while somewhat shaken, in effect weathered the Jewish-Palestinian battles of November 1947-May 1948, and resulted in limited and indecisive warfare between the Israel Defence Forces and Jordan's army, the Arab Legion, in May 1948-April 1949; and (d) following the war, 'Abdallah wanted to reach peace with Israel but due to the internal weaknesses of his position and Israeli unwillingness to make concessions, no peace treaty was achieved."

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 04 - 06:44 PM

Carol C : I used the term "Israelis"---you persist in using the term "Jews". There is a difference--and there is also significant symbolism in your using that terminology.

Actually, I don't persist in using the term "Jews" instead of "Israelis". I almost always say "Israelis" rather than "Jews", and if you would read my posting history on this subject, you would see this for yourself. But in the case of what was going on prior to the establishment of the state of Israel, the conflict was being carried out by people who were Jewish, but not yet Israelis. I don't know of any other way to make clear which people in that conflict I am talking about (prior to Israeli statehood).

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 04 - 06:57 PM

There are lots of Jews who aren't Israelis, and a fair number of Israelis who aren't Jews.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 04 - 07:26 PM

Remember what happened to those who really tried to make peace. King Hussein's father (King Abdullah), and more recently Anwar Sadat. They don't seem to live very long.

In the case of King Abdullah, and the fact that together with Israel, he killed the Palestinians' dreams of having an independent state, I guess it doesn't surprise me that he was killed. But in consideration of his betrayal of the Palestinians (and all of the bloody consequences of that decision), I don't think I would call him a "peace maker".

They don't seem to live very long

I find myself wondering what, exactly, your point is in saying this.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 24 May 04 - 07:43 PM

Well, this, Carol C, is the perfect moment to bring music back into the thread. Great seque.

You ask ---what is the point in saying this--referrring to the assasinations of peacemakers.

    So--back to the music. Please try to listen to Eric Bogle's beautiful composition (of the many) The Blessing. It appears on his Small Miracles CD. You might also appreciate his "Never Again/Remember" on his I Wrote this Wee Song For Ye

    The BLessing was composed on the sad event of Rabin's death---but it could be for anyone. He also later wrote a song about his feelings about the horror of 9-11-01.   
   
    I am sure all of you know his other classics---among them The Band Played Waltzing Matilda, and so many more




Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 May 04 - 07:49 PM

Nice tap dance, CarolC.

But you need to replace that op hat and cane.

It's already very worn out.

You should be Arafat's public relations minister.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 24 May 04 - 08:08 PM

Carol, I think that the present day Palestinians would call them "collaborators". My point is that that hatred for Jews ( and more recently Americans and Western Europeans), is being bred into these people from the time of infancy. They are being indoctrinated and brainwashed in Midrasas (religious school) as young children that hatred, violence, and killing is not only acceptable behavior but meritorious as well. This is not only happening in Palestine but in all Arab countries. It is not the true teachings of Islam, which is a religion of "love thy neighbor" much like Judaism & Christianity. These radicals have hijacked Islam and are using it as a unifying force to further their own agenda. What is that agenda may you ask ?
It is a political goal called "Pan Arab Nationalism". This is what has given birth to Bin Laden, the Taliban, Al Queda, Hamas, Arafat and all radical terrorist entities. The truth is that the entire Arab world is being taught to hate anyone & anything that is not Islamic in nature. Unfortunately, President Bush has done much to foster this hatred by invading Iraq under false pretenses and the recent revelations about prisoner abuse has excaberated the situation even further. It is all about Arab pride & power and getting back at the west for years of imperialism. Try to compare it to the Black Power movement here in the US during the 1960s & early 70s when names like H. Rapp Brown, Angela Davis & Stokey Carmichael made the headlines. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 04 - 09:05 PM

SInce there was no polling or elections done among the Arabs of Palestine at the time, CarolC is no position to explain "the will of the majority of Arabs." It is not unreasonable to expect in that region, given its violent history of assassination, that he would not have survived for any length of time had he been as unpopular as CarolC decalres.

Well, here's what palestineremembered.com, an organization with a noticably pro-Palestinian bias has to say about it:

"Though we very much respected our history teacher, we used to think that (he) said all this because he was a relative of Sheikh Hossam El-Din Jar-Allah, Sheikh Amin Al-Husseini's opponent ,who had obtained more votes than Haj Amin in the elections for the post of the Grand Mufti, but was never appointed, as the British for their own political reasons chose to give the job to Haj Amin."

http://netfinity2.palestineremembered.com/Jaffa/Jaffa/Story194.html

...and this is what palestinefacts.org, an organization with a noticably pro-Zionist bias has to say about it:

"The first Palestine High Commissioner. Sir Herbert Samuel arrived in Palestine on July 1, 1920. He was a weak administrator who was too ready to compromise and appease the extremist, nationalistic Arab minority led by Haj Amin al-Husseini...

...Al-Husseini represented newly emerging proponents of militant, Palestinian Arab nationalism, a previously unknown concept. Once he was in power, he began a campaign of terror and intimidation against anyone opposed to his rule and policies. He killed Jews at every opportunity, but also eliminated Arabs who did not support his campaign of violence. Husseini was not willing to negotiate or make any kind of compromise for the sake of peace."

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php

Now ordinarily I wouldn't look to either of these sites for documentation of anything, because of their inherant biases, but the fact that they both seem to agree on this one point, even dispite their opposing points of view, makes me think it's probably pretty trustworthy.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 04 - 09:14 PM

Rabbi-Sol, I don't have time to answer your 24 May 04 - 08:08 PM post with regard to the specifics of it right at the moment, but you really need to try to understand that what the majority of Palestinians, and even Palestinian terrorists, want has nothing to do with their religion, which can be either Christian or Muslim (and yes, there have been some acts of "terrorism" committed by Palestinian Christians), but is for the purpose of accomplishing one goal. That goal is to end the occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, and to get some recognition for their legitimate grievances.

Now, I don't condone any kind of violence committed against civilians by anyone, Palestinian or Israeli. But if people continue to misconstrue the motives of those who do these things, the problems will never get solved.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 04 - 09:19 PM

Thank you, Bill H. That was a very nice post.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 04 - 08:00 AM

"He killed Jews at every opportunity, but also eliminated Arabs who did not support his campaign of violence."

Seems to describe the present Palestinian terrorists, as well.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 04 - 10:55 AM

Seems to describe the present Palestinian terrorists, as well.

And also the Israeli terrorist who killed Rabin.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:02 AM

No, he just killed one individual, for that individual's perceived actions and future actions. NOT THE SAME at all, CarolC.

The Palestinian terrorist would blow you up, given a chance, without even thinking about it, if you were were he/she decided to act.

The Israeli murderer ghad a specific victim- a target. I have never called Palestinians who attacked military posts or troops terrorists- not too bright, but not terrorists. Thaose who target random civilians are terrorists- On both sides.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:19 AM

I don't know, beardedbruce. As the with the British official who appointed Amin Al-Husseini to the postition of Mufti, the repercussions of that act, of assasinating Rabin, have probably caused the deaths of thousands of people. And I feel pretty confident that Rabin's assassin knew that this would be the result of his actions.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:23 AM

A valid point- but the killing of an Israeli soldier has repercussions as well, yet you (and I) would not consider the person who killed that soldier to be a terrorist...

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:27 AM

And there have been examples of both sorts of killing on both sides - the targetted individual, and the killing of a bunch of random people on the other side.

What keeps this going is the constant sequence of reprisals designed to provoke reprisals to justify reprisals which will provoke reprisals.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:29 AM

True... and your proposal to end it?

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:03 PM

And also the Israeli terrorist who killed Rabin.

Rabin's assasin was a murderer, an extremist, an enemy of peace.

However, he was not a terrorist. Terrorists strike at random targets -- school children eating pizza, old people at a Passover seder, secretaries at work on the 100th floor -- while Rabin, like Sadat, the Kennedys, Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, were very specific tragets.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:17 PM

The only way to break that cycle of violence is to refuse to go along with it, and refuse to carry out the expected reprisal, and to persist in that refusal in face of further provocations.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:22 PM

So, the Palestinians, who only want peace and leibenraum, will stop all the terrorist activity on their side?

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:58 PM

Either side could do it. But there are clearly those on both sides who would be desperate to stop it happening, because it would threaten their position, which is preserved by the continuing violence.

I didn't say I expect it to happen.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:32 PM

Starting tonight at sundown, I will be off the forum for 2 full days in observance of the Jewish holiday of Shavuos (Pentecost). I will be back on line late Thursday night, 72 minutes after sundown. In keeping this thread within the realm of music, I would like some of you to check out 2 of my other threads. As I am relatively new to this forum, I do not as yet know how to create the blue links. One thread is "Lyrics; The Little Bird" in which I have posted a song written after the Holocaust but before the establishment of the State of Israel. I would like to hear some comments from this group, both pro & con about the feelings conveyed in this song. Another thread is "Lyr. Req. There Are 2 Sides To The Jordan", a song originally written in Hebrew but translated into a singable English version. It was the original theme song of the right wing Revisionist Party. No one has come up with the English lyrics for me yet. Since many on this forum, both pro & con, have considerable knowledge of this era, perhaps someone will know them. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:48 PM

little bird

2 sides to the Jordan

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:59 PM

Welcome to Sol - and I think the way he has avoiding losing his rag in this thread is to be welcomed too. And if possible, emulated.

Just because we find ourselves in disagreement with other people, even sharp disagreement about things that matter to us, is no reason to make personal attacks on other people.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 May 04 - 04:06 PM

Well, maybe. Or maybe, it's as good a reason as any.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 May 04 - 04:53 PM

Martin, reasoning like that got us into the mess the world is currently in.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 06:24 AM

As good a reason as any, and that's no good reason.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:00 AM

The wonderful thing about this forum is that we can discuss the issues as rational human beings, with mutual respect, even though many of us are on opposite sides of the issue. It is a lot better than shooting bullets and grenades at each other. Now, if we can only get the protagonists in the Middle East to do the same, we will have accomplished something. But then again, we are not directly in the line of fire and can afford to take a more laid back position. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 04 - 06:20 AM

...we are not directly in the line of fire and can afford to take a more laid back position"

That's true in one way - but it often happens that the people actually in the heart of a conflict can be better able to be ready to make peace than many of their supporters a long way away crying "No Surrender".   That has definitely been the case sometimes in the context of the Troubles in Ireland.

I wholly agree with Sol there, about how we should value the opportunity we have here to argue and discuss with people who see things differently, and to learn to understand why they see things differently, and what that is based on. I think the key to using that opportunity wisely is that ability to walk away and consider before coming up with a reply to something that has been said that triggers an angry or dismissive response.

(Happy Pentecost, Sol - we celebrate it on this Sunday.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Palestine, My Palestine
From: GUEST,witzall
Date: 18 Sep 11 - 08:34 AM

Very late to this thread (6 years). But I was looking for these lyrics. I could only remember the first verse, that from my childhood in Hebrew School in the early '40s. I wanted to show then to my children, aged 41 and 50, and to my grandchildren, to demonstrate how differently things were viewed then, the Jews being 'Palestinians' and all.