Songbooks: The Shanty Book Pt1

Subject: Folklore: The Shanty Book Pt1
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 20 May 04 - 12:55 AM

While I was on holiday/work in New Zealand I was digging around in the many second hand book shops in Wellington where I found a copy of The Shanty Book Pt1 by Richard Runciman Terry published by Curwen in about 1920-1921.

The book as it says is a shanty book, the shanties being part of the collection of Capt W B Whall's 'Sea Songs, Ships and Shanties'

Can anyone tell me more about Capt Whall and R R Terry?

And do any catters out their have Part 2?

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Shanty Book Pt1
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:00 AM

Good find!

I do have an old copy of Capt. Whall's shanty book. When I have more time, perhaps, we can compare notes.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Shanty Book Pt1
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:11 AM

what a treasure, are they real or bowdlerised for genteel eyes & ears like one someone had recently (& don't ask me who had it or what is was cos I forget).

sandra

Charley, it was of a similar vintage, & I suppose I saw it on the James Craig or maybe at the Riverview session.

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Shanty Book Pt1
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:17 AM

there appears to be a dearth of information on Capt Whall out on the internet.

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Shanty Book Pt1
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 May 04 - 10:31 AM

Like Charley, I have a copy of one edition of his book - complete with some nice plates of sailing ships. He comes across as a cormudgeonly, opinionated old gent, if I remember rightly! The sets are pretty clean, on the whole - not surprisingly, given the date.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Shanty Book Pt1
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 May 04 - 10:35 AM

One of the Patrick O'Brian websites includes the following:
_________________________________________________________
Captain Whall's book has been republished many times, and is still in print. He was born in 1837 and died in the 1920's. Originally, he intended a career in the Church, and studied music at Oxford. In 1861, he went to sea and served with some veterans of the Napoleonic wars. He is quoted as saying, "Since 1872, I have not heard a Shanty or Song worth the name. Steam spoilt them."
___________________________________________________

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Shanty Book Pt1
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 20 May 04 - 10:35 AM

here's the only thing I found other then a few (very few) reference to the collection:

A brief bio and a qoute:

Captain W.B. Whall b. 1837, d. 1925?, Master Mariner, who was intended for the Church, went up to Oxford and studied music under Sir John Stainer, but then went to sea in 1861. For the first few years he was shipmate of old men-of-wars men from "before the peace" (1815). He stated "Since 1872, I have not heard a Shanty or Song worth the name. Steam spoilt them." The first edition of his "Sea Songs and Shanties" was 1910 by Brown, Son and Ferguson, Glasgow, 1910. "As to the spelling of shanty, the earliest collection known to us, published about 1875, calls these ditties "Shanty Songs", meaning we suppose, songs from the shanties. Many of the early ones were certainly nigger; for example, "Way! Sing Sally", "Jamboree", "Let de bulgine run"; and though as a rule white men did not sing "nigger", still there were hundreds of coloured men in our ships, both naval and mercantile, and many of these songs came from the shanties, as the Negro huts on the Southern plantations were called. In any case why go to the French when we have the good old English word "chant?" There are many good French sea songs of this class, but they are not called "chanteys".

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Shanty Book Pt1
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 May 04 - 10:40 AM

Whall's book has often been re-printed, and is quite easy to get hold of. Here is a link to the search routine at BookFinder.com:

Whall: Sea Songs

It was first published in 1910, so Sandra need not expect frank scatology.

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Shanty Book Pt1
From: Amos
Date: 20 May 04 - 01:28 PM

Wow. Gotta get me one of dem!

A

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Shanty Book Pt1
From: SydneyShanty
Date: 20 May 04 - 08:12 PM

Sandra

You may be thinking of the copies of "The making of a sailor" - Fred Harlow's recollections of life on board the Akbar in the 1870's which I was showing at a recent Shanty Singalong on board the James Craig.

To quote from the preface
"I number of friends have asked me to write a description of sea life in the '70s aboard a deep-water ship. It is a difficult task to perform with the due regard for the proprieties of speech. In those days swearing was prohibited on board some shipsbut on others the conversation was decidely obscene." "If I picture my experiences one-half as true to life as I found them on board the Akbar, the bOard of Censors will clap a stopper on my yarn" "Neither can a true description of of life aboard ship be told at a prayer meeting"

In talking to Bruce Hitchman who crewed on the Pamir during WWII, he points out that there was no shanty singing, but rather just chants, and the words used were also not fit for mixed company.

So I believe we have to accept that published shanties will be censored.

Apparently when Stan Hugill was singing shanties exactly as they were sung at sea, he would wait until the ladies had gone to bed (report from Chrissie Littel who has toured with Stan)

Mike
James Craig Shanty Crew

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Shanty Book Pt1
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:11 AM

what a treasure, are they real or bowdlerised for genteel eyes & ears like one someone had recently (& don't ask me who had it or what is was cos I forget).

sandra

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Shanty Book Pt1
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 May 04 - 08:17 PM

Mike-

Thanks for the clarification. Fred Harlow sounds like a good source for the spirit of real shanty singing.

Are you still holding the Wednesday evening shanty sings on the James Craig?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Shanty Book Pt1
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:01 PM

From another thread- Charles Nordhoff, in "The Merchant Vessel," variously titled inc. "Seeing the World," about voyages taken ca. 1850, was the first to describe the "chants," led by a "Chantingman," the chanteys, which now are mostly called shanties. "Old Stormy" and a version of "Bound Away" are the two that he quotes.

Douglas Morgan, "What Do You Do With a Drunken Sailor," Unexpurgated Sea Chanties, is available in paperback. A few real chanteys, some moldy college songs-

Haul Away, Joe

When I was a little boy,
Or so my mother told me,
Way haul away, we'll haul away, Joe!
That if I did not fuck the girls
My prick would go all mouldy.
Way haul away, we'll haul away, Joe!
(Five verses and chorus; also Haul Away, Rosie)

Frederick Harlow's book available in paperback from Amazon.


etc.
From Morgan's little book.
A Swordsmith Book, PO Box 242, Pomfret, CT 06258, www.swordsmith.com.

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Shanty Book Pt1
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:03 PM

Messed up. The address lost at the bottom is for Morgan's book.

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Shanty Book Pt1
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 21 May 04 - 08:25 AM

Charley - when you get back to Sydney you will find the shanty sessions still going strong. Well, the last few sessions have been small, but perfectly (vocally) formed!

sandra

Subject: RE: Folklore: The Shanty Book Pt1
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 04:06 PM

Index to Whall, "Sea Songs and Shanties," in thread 102326:
Shanty Book

Subject: RE: Songbooks: The Shanty Book Pt1
From: sciencegeek
Date: 26 Sep 20 - 03:13 AM

Richard Runciman Terry came from a seafaring family, the Runcimans, that were also great singers of shanties and sea songs. While, Terry had a very high opinion of Captain Whall and his book, the majority of songs contained in his books, The Shanty Book parts 1 & 2 and Salt Sea Ballads( all published between 1921 and 1931 by Curwen Press, were those Terry had personally learned or collected throughout his lifetime and mostly from Northumbrian sources and he went to great pains to give precise information regarding different versions of the same song and his opinions of the veracity of some versions that had gained popularity over the years.

Whall's book was limited to 28 shanties he had learned at sea, while the Shanty Books 1 & 2 contain 65 shanties and has been republished by Fireship Press under the title, The Way of the Ship: Sailors, Shanties and Shantymen.

Terry's book, Salt Sea Ballads has thirty songs divided into those that were generally sung or were specific to Northumberland, with 2 noted parody songs that had gained popularity with sailors. Unfortunately, the book is not easy to find and I grabbed the only one that I found online.

As for sanitizing the saltier songs, Terry admits to bowing to the need to omit lines or verses that would never have been accepted by the publishers... but he does give hints and tales of how his family handled his youthful inquiries regarding what he had overheard at the docks... it would seem that Rabelaisian was a favorite term in the Runciman family because it turns up in references by two of his uncles as well as his own books.

Terry had a high regard for what he termed scientific song collecting and what is now called ethnomusicology and had hoped to publish a more definitive book of shanties that would go into greater depth of just how the sailors used the shanties in their work and different versions that arose over time. That book was never published but I am convinced that he had at least a draft manuscript prepared, based on statements made in his books. The problem with Curwen Press was that they seemed to been more concerned with printing single pieces of sheet music to the public than full books... but their origin was as printers of church music and what came later were jobs that paid the bills.

When Mike first saw the copy of Way of the Ship he dismissed it as another sea shanty top 40... but when you consider that these were songs collected by the author over a long span of years (he was born 1864 and died 1938) and from first hand sources, it becomes obvious that his books are a valuable contribution to the effort of preserving maritime music for future generations.