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BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore

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GUEST,Laurent 22 May 04 - 03:22 PM
Blackcatter 22 May 04 - 03:27 PM
GUEST 22 May 04 - 03:30 PM
Blackcatter 22 May 04 - 03:37 PM
GUEST,Laurent 22 May 04 - 03:40 PM
George Papavgeris 22 May 04 - 03:40 PM
GUEST,Laurent 22 May 04 - 03:43 PM
Blackcatter 22 May 04 - 03:49 PM
GUEST 22 May 04 - 04:13 PM
Amos 22 May 04 - 04:27 PM
Ebbie 22 May 04 - 04:43 PM
Laurent 22 May 04 - 04:57 PM
Stilly River Sage 22 May 04 - 05:28 PM
Blackcatter 22 May 04 - 06:27 PM
Bobert 22 May 04 - 08:39 PM
Blackcatter 22 May 04 - 09:37 PM
Bobert 22 May 04 - 09:41 PM
Blackcatter 22 May 04 - 10:21 PM
Bobert 22 May 04 - 10:29 PM
katlaughing 22 May 04 - 11:25 PM
Blackcatter 22 May 04 - 11:49 PM
Jack the Sailor 23 May 04 - 12:18 AM
Blackcatter 23 May 04 - 12:45 AM
Laurent 23 May 04 - 01:15 AM
GUEST,Ooh-Aah 23 May 04 - 05:25 AM
Ellenpoly 23 May 04 - 06:23 AM
dianavan 23 May 04 - 10:36 AM
GUEST 23 May 04 - 02:48 PM
ard mhacha 23 May 04 - 03:01 PM
GUEST 23 May 04 - 03:11 PM
GUEST,MAT at lab 23 May 04 - 04:57 PM
GUEST,Gwenaël Le Floc'h, Paris, France 25 May 04 - 05:39 AM
Amos 25 May 04 - 08:19 AM
Teribus 25 May 04 - 08:30 AM
GUEST 25 May 04 - 08:33 AM
GUEST 25 May 04 - 08:40 AM
GUEST,The dreaded guest again 25 May 04 - 08:45 AM
Blackcatter 25 May 04 - 10:01 AM
Wolfgang 25 May 04 - 12:34 PM
Amos 25 May 04 - 12:39 PM
Teribus 25 May 04 - 12:41 PM
Amos 25 May 04 - 12:50 PM
Teribus 25 May 04 - 12:51 PM
semi-submersible 25 May 04 - 02:17 PM
GUEST 25 May 04 - 04:49 PM
Bobert 25 May 04 - 05:20 PM
Blackcatter 25 May 04 - 05:36 PM
semi-submersible 25 May 04 - 11:51 PM
Stilly River Sage 26 May 04 - 12:02 AM
Blackcatter 26 May 04 - 12:04 AM
Ellenpoly 26 May 04 - 11:25 AM
Blackcatter 26 May 04 - 12:10 PM
Ellenpoly 26 May 04 - 12:29 PM
Blackcatter 27 May 04 - 01:12 AM
GUEST 27 May 04 - 05:31 PM
Little Hawk 27 May 04 - 06:30 PM
Blackcatter 27 May 04 - 06:48 PM
Little Hawk 27 May 04 - 10:22 PM
Blackcatter 27 May 04 - 10:28 PM
DougR 28 May 04 - 01:13 AM
Blackcatter 28 May 04 - 01:45 AM
ard mhacha 28 May 04 - 03:31 AM
Ellenpoly 28 May 04 - 03:49 AM
Blackcatter 28 May 04 - 11:46 AM
Ellenpoly 28 May 04 - 12:03 PM
Blackcatter 28 May 04 - 12:15 PM
Ellenpoly 28 May 04 - 12:20 PM
Amos 28 May 04 - 12:37 PM
Blackcatter 28 May 04 - 12:59 PM
Ellenpoly 28 May 04 - 01:01 PM
DougR 28 May 04 - 01:06 PM
semi-submersible 28 May 04 - 04:03 PM
DougR 28 May 04 - 04:53 PM
Amos 28 May 04 - 04:56 PM
Greg F. 28 May 04 - 06:55 PM
Big Al Whittle 28 May 04 - 07:00 PM
Blackcatter 28 May 04 - 07:13 PM
semi-submersible 28 May 04 - 08:04 PM
dianavan 29 May 04 - 12:30 PM
DougR 29 May 04 - 08:10 PM
GUEST 30 May 04 - 11:52 AM
GUEST 30 May 04 - 12:11 PM
GUEST 30 May 04 - 12:27 PM
GUEST 30 May 04 - 01:17 PM
semi-submersible 30 May 04 - 07:26 PM
Amos 30 May 04 - 08:22 PM
katlaughing 03 Jun 04 - 11:56 AM
Blackcatter 03 Jun 04 - 12:17 PM
DougR 03 Jun 04 - 12:21 PM
Ellenpoly 03 Jun 04 - 12:22 PM

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Subject: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: GUEST,Laurent
Date: 22 May 04 - 03:22 PM

It is unusual for a French guy to create a BS thread, but I would like to congratulate Mr Michael Moore for being rewarded tonight by the highest reward of Cannes'festival : the "Palme d'or" for Farenheit 911.

I don't want to upset anybody in the USA but I think Michael Moore's movies are showing what France is about to become in the next few years, especially after the last pole in April 2002.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Blackcatter
Date: 22 May 04 - 03:27 PM

Thank for the news Laurent. That's a remarkable achievement for him. It's one thing to win an Oscar for best documentary, but to win the over-all top award at Cannes is incredible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 04 - 03:30 PM

Looking to is face during the results, he couldn't believe it could happen to him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Blackcatter
Date: 22 May 04 - 03:37 PM

Well, when was the last time a documentary won?


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: GUEST,Laurent
Date: 22 May 04 - 03:40 PM

Well, I don't know. But it might be the very first time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 22 May 04 - 03:40 PM

I bet this will solve any distribution deal issues he might have had after the Disney pull-out (distributus interruptus)...


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: GUEST,Laurent
Date: 22 May 04 - 03:43 PM

I guess so. Being asked if American people would be able to see is movie, he said he was quite sure they will be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Blackcatter
Date: 22 May 04 - 03:49 PM

Even before that, there was little doubt of American distribution. Moore is to big a name to not have his film shown in the U.S. It isn't usually difficult to distribute films - but often times it's the promotin of the film that is hard to get done. Moore will have little trouble with that - nearly everyone who is likely to want to see his movie, already knows that it exists, the Cannes success will only make it that much easier to sell to the public.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 04 - 04:13 PM

I don't know what the movie contains but here, we knew from a book by Jean-Charles Brisard and Guillaume Dasquie called "Ben Laden - la verite interdite" (Bin Laden - The forbiden truth) that Bush's Clan was connected to Salem Bin Laden through Harken Energy and Khalid Bin Mahfouz through Carlyle Group.

Unfortunatly, past or present French President might have no lessons to give...


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Amos
Date: 22 May 04 - 04:27 PM

Merci bien, Laurent; this is des nouvelles bienvenues!!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 May 04 - 04:43 PM

International Herald Tribune.

http://www.iht.com/articles/521066.htm

Excerpts:

"In your wildest dreams you could not imagine Franklin D. Roosevelt behaving this way 30 seconds before declaring war, with grave decisions and their consequences at stake," said Moore in an interview before his new documentary's premiere at Cannes last Monday. "But that may be giving him credit for thinking that
the decisions were grave."

"...Whatever you think of Moore, there's no question he's detonating dynamite here. From a variety of sources - foreign journalists and broadcasters (like Britain's Channel Four), freelancers and sympathetic American TV workers who slipped him illicit video - he supplies war-time pictures that have been largely shielded from our view."


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Laurent
Date: 22 May 04 - 04:57 PM

Amos : You're welcolme (We French would say "de rien" or "il n'y a pas de quoi!").

Once again, I apologize for my poor English, but being 42 years old today, I hope you'll pardon me.

As I said earlier, Michael Moore's books which I read both in French and American are about IMHO the future of european countries.

We have a joke in France which is : What difference is it between dictatorship and democracy? Dictatoship is "Shut your trap!" and democracy is "You can just keep on talking!" Even though both sentenced can only be said in democratic countries, we know after the last pole in France, where the liberals gained the day (22 areas from 23), French conservative government keeps on destructing French Welfare, and not for the best...


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 May 04 - 05:28 PM

Laurent, you speak better English when it isn't your birthday, eh? Too much cake and ice cream! :)

This is good news. I wonder if we'll get to see Moore's expression in news reports over here?

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Blackcatter
Date: 22 May 04 - 06:27 PM

It was covered very briefly on the local 6pm news in Orlando, FL He really looked surprised.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Bobert
Date: 22 May 04 - 08:39 PM

Now if we can get Mickey and Minnie to step aside so the rest of us can see it...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Blackcatter
Date: 22 May 04 - 09:37 PM

Disney don't have anything to do with it at this point - they passed, some other distribution company will leap to make a whole bunch of money on a movie that's had a million $$ worth of free publicity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Bobert
Date: 22 May 04 - 09:41 PM

No, actually Disney is the parent company of the company, Merrimax, who has proprietary rights over the film. Merrimax wants to release it but ma and pa mouse don't want to have it released... That's the sad story....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Blackcatter
Date: 22 May 04 - 10:21 PM

Disney cannot stop the distribution of the movie - while Disney helped finance it, they do not control the movie, Mirimax does - and from what Moore says on his website, Disney only has the right to say no on Mirimax films that are released with the NC-17 classification.   If they do pass on this, Mirimax can find another distribution company.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Bobert
Date: 22 May 04 - 10:29 PM

Okay, B-Catter, I hope yer right... It would be a shame if the Mouse, who is in bed with Bush and Micheal Powell, could stand in the way of this important film being released.... Like I said, I hope you are right...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 May 04 - 11:25 PM

Laurent, your English is very good. I don't know much French, but my husband was raised speaking Canadian French, in school and at home. It's been a long time since he's spoken French, but he says this translation from "Babelfish" sounds about right for me to say to you:

Bonne journee natale!


And, thank you for posting this about Michael Moore. I noticed, in the article from which I copied the following, that, unlike Resident Bush, Michael Moore flew home from Cannes to attend his daughter's graduation from college. He then returned to Cannes. Good for him!

Regarding the distribution:

The movie, as of last night, was technically still without a distributor. Last month, Walt Disney, the distributor of the movie through its Miramax division, had blocked the release of the documentary, citing its politically divisive content. This left "Fahrenheit 9/11" high and dry as it approached its scheduled July 2 opening date. Harvey Weinstein, Miramax's co-president, has vowed to distribute the movie one way or another, whether by buying the film and distributing it independently or releasing it through a third party. Negotiations between Weinstein and Disney are ongoing.

"I have a sneaking suspicion, thanks to what you have done here and the response of everyone at this festival, you will ensure that the American people will see this movie," Moore said. Later he joked, "I'm happy to announce now we have a distributor in Albania. Which means every country but one can see it."


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Blackcatter
Date: 22 May 04 - 11:49 PM

Hell, he'll put it on TV if he has to.

No one company can kill this film - there's too many interests involved in it - AND it will make too much money. Even in fairly limited release and considering the relatively non-cotroversial subject, Bowling for Columbine made quite a bit of profit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 May 04 - 12:18 AM

I saw Michael Eisner, the Disney CEO say in and interview that Moore had every right to find another distributer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Blackcatter
Date: 23 May 04 - 12:45 AM

It's all about exercising options. Only when a studio has complete control over a movie does it have little chance of seeing the light of day. I dare say that Moore and some of his friends were investors in the movie. He says on his website that Disney put in $8 million, which I'm sure was a large chunk, but hardly the entire bill for production.

Moore's level of creative control and pull in Hollywood lets him do pretty much what he wants. And wether you want to completely believe Moore or not, if Disney didn't know what the subject of the film was - that's their own bloody fault, not Moore's. The head of Miramax wouldn't agree to the movie without seeing a script. Moore wouldn't try to pull the wool over anyone's eyes - Miramax may not have been Moore's first choice, but I doubt that it would have been his last - Getting $8 mil. wouldn't have been hard for him to scare up in Canada or Europe considering the topic.

OK - I've talked too long.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Laurent
Date: 23 May 04 - 01:15 AM

Thanks Katlaughing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah
Date: 23 May 04 - 05:25 AM

According to the TV news here in Australian as of ten minutes ago, Disney refused to distribute the film saying it was 'too political in an election year'. Excuse me? I thought election years were supposed to be all about politics! Only in the US...


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 23 May 04 - 06:23 AM

Laurent, this is fantastic news! From the bits and pieces I have read and heard about this film, it sounds as if even those who thought there were flaws (length was one given critisism, another stated that there wasn't enough that was "new" in what was depicted) the general thought was that it was quite a strong attack against the Bush administration, and I for one, rather hope that the film is held off in distribution for just a wee while longer

....Because I still believe (and apparently this theory is being widely spread) that the government has known where Bin Laden is for quite some time and is just holding off on his capture until as close to election time as possible, knowing it's about the only thing that could counter all the dreadful news that has already come out, with more waiting in the wings.

Whenever the Moore film is distributed, I'll be one of the first in line to see it. He has his own problems and sometimes gets in his own way as a film maker, but he has revealed much in the past, and if you've read any of his books, know he pulls few punches. Good for him..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: dianavan
Date: 23 May 04 - 10:36 AM

Congratulations, Michael Moore. I knew you could do it! I haven't seen it yet but with all the effort to keep the the U.S. public from seeing it, I'm sure Bush is pretty worried at this point. Keep up the pressure!


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 04 - 02:48 PM

I am pleased for Mr. Moore, but even more pleased for what the Palme d'Or being awarded to a documentary film--and an extremely partisan, political documentary at that--will do to increase the stature of documentary filmmaking in an industry that has historically shunned the documentary genre in favor of some very poor quality, amoral, and apolitical fantasy genres, including, ironically enough, the wildly popular genre of fantasy violence genre Mr. Tarantino, who was president of this year's panel of Palme d'Or judges.

The Palme d'Or has not been awarded to a documentary film in almost 50 years--since it was bestowed upon Jacques Cousteau for his film, "The Silent World".

"Bowling for Columbine" earned an unprecedented $58 million worldwide. But to presume that means that documentaries are easy to get distributed, as Blackcatter has suggested, is patently untrue, and I don't know where s/he gets ideas like that. Documentary films rarely receive national distribution even in art houses. "Bowling for Columbine" has helped the visibility of some American films in the US (like "Fog of War" and "Capturing the Friedmans"), but not a lot. And American film goers rarely see a non-US documentary on American screens, which is also a travesty.

I doubt "Fahrenheit 911" will open as scheduled over the 4th of July weekend/US Independence Day, because that is a mere six weeks away. It just isn't likely to get picked up, the promotion package done, and the film be distributed that quickly, without severely compromising the number of theatres it can open in. Theatres are already booked for that weekend, and with no distributor today, a 4th of July opening would be more detrimental to the film than accepting a late August, Labor Day or later opening. The political timing of that would make sense too, since it would carry the buzz surrounding the film right smack dab into the height of the election campaign.

Would that hurt Bush? Maybe. But it is a big risk also for Moore, who could easily suffer from well-financed neocon backlash, and much greater censorship in the US with a late summer/early fall release than would have been the case with a 4th of July release date. The original date would have had at least had some protection being released in the same month as the Democratic National Convention. But it being forced to open later means it would open around the same time as the Republican National Convention in NYC, with all of it's 9/11 neocon symbolism front and center. Moore's film, if it is in competition with that, could be successfully crushed by the media moguls, merely by setting the sycophantic neocon media darlings loose on it.

Moore is going to more than earn his millions trying to promote this film in the US, because the neocons believe their very survival is at stake, and damn the consequences.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: ard mhacha
Date: 23 May 04 - 03:01 PM

Good on Michael Moore I just seen him on C4 TV[UK],receiving his award, and now let the people of the US see this award winning film, or is Bush and his henchmen too afraid of the truth?.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 04 - 03:11 PM

They are definitely too afraid of the truth, which is why the Bush administration and the neocon Republicans in Congress are trying to stymie the investigation into the torture of prisoners in US custody and other US war crimes in clear violation of the Geneva Conventions around the world.

The first thing the Bush administration's damage control campaign did successfully, was prevent the US media from using the words "torture" and "war crimes" to describe the photographic evidence of prisoner torture coming out of Iraq. The second thing they did was censor the majority of photographic evidence, by allowing members of Congress to see it, but not the American people.

That will be but the tip of the iceberg in the run up to the election. I wouldn't be so sure Michael Moore's film will get distributed to US movie houses prior to the US election in November. After all, it isn't just Disney that is in the back pockets of the neocon Republicans.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: GUEST,MAT at lab
Date: 23 May 04 - 04:57 PM

Actually I thought *Bowling for Columbine* was very very political -- Moore put the responsibility for that tragedy squarely on the war industry culture which is/was the economic backbone of the community. I seem to remember that the mental gymnastics required to justify that raised denial to a fine art. Of course denial can be a fine art in so many areas of our culture. (or lack of, as Gandhi would say.)

I can't wait to see it. Maybe limited release? another trip to Portland ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: GUEST,Gwenaël Le Floc'h, Paris, France
Date: 25 May 04 - 05:39 AM

Je suis sinçèrement touchée par cette Palme d'or, qui restera dans l'histoire.

rozen_rozen@hotmail.com


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Amos
Date: 25 May 04 - 08:19 AM

Je suis d'accord.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 04 - 08:30 AM

Why should GWB, or the Republican Party be afraid of this documentary being shown - it contains nothing new - they are the same conspiracy theories we have been hearing from Dreaded Guest and others for many, many months now.

love Ard's: "...or is Bush and his henchmen too afraid of the truth?."

Ard you wouldn't know the truth if it jumped up and kicked you in the bollocks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 08:33 AM

For the same reason Disney is afraid of this documentary.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 08:40 AM

And BTW, no one in the legitimate press is claiming Moore's documentary contains "conspiracy theories". The majority of the content of F911 is edited video clips from mainstream media.

The relationships between the bin Laden and Bush families are very well documented, though rarely reported upon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: GUEST,The dreaded guest again
Date: 25 May 04 - 08:45 AM

Terribus,

fat lazy ignorant people like their information presented in nice movie/TV show sized chunks, it saves them having to do any work and find things out for themselves. If you doubt this just look at how Hollywood movies are often taken to be presenting history as it really happened.

If they then had the chance to see this movie they would then be given something to counter the nice sound bite sized crap they are fed by the Bush administration and maybe just maybe they would question it and not play sheep all the time. That is why it is supressed before it has even been released.

Disney has also stated they may loose substantial tax breaks granted them by the state of Florida which is goverened by, come on guess who, Yes that right Jeb Bush the brother of the president. If that don't stink then you have truely twisted values when it comes to Democratic government.

Have you really looked at Moores website and seen where he quotes from or are Bushes sound bites all you need.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Blackcatter
Date: 25 May 04 - 10:01 AM

But to presume that means that documentaries are easy to get distributed, as Blackcatter has suggested, is patently untrue, and I don't know where s/he gets ideas like that.

I cannot recall ever saying that - either in this thread or anywhere else. In this thread I have spoken specifically of Michael Moore's work, not documentary film making in geenral.

------------

Disney has also stated they may loose substantial tax breaks granted them by the state of Florida

I still haven't seen evidence that they've said this, though I may have missed something the earlier thread on this subject discussed that in some depth, and I thought it was "charged" that Disney was feeling that way. As I pointed out in that thread, Disney pays a great deal in taxes and generates a great deal in taxes through all of you tourists who spend while visiting the Orlando area (and I thank you since I don't have any state income tax to pay). Do they get some tax breaks - certainly, but that is at least in part because they get a "quantity discount."

I can assure you that they pay tens of millions of dollars in property tax alone. Disney's property in Orange and Osceola Counties is divided up into different parcels to differentiate between different millage rates, but looking at just the 4 major theme parks on their property, each one's current tax bill is over $5 million dollars. Disney's combined property tax bill is probably around $50 million.

As I've said before, I'm no defender of Disney - but their descision to not distribute Moore's movie has more to do with the political leanings of their directors than anything real, such as tax breaks. If Disney could show that they lost perfectly leagal tax breaks for distributing this movie, they would not only have a really good lawsuit, it would allow the company to say "See - we're for free speech and the government is punishing us. ABC news (Disney) would LOVE that!

This has nothing to do with tax breaks. At Disney's annual stockholders meeting Eisner basically got a no-confidence vote of over 40%. Nearly everyone assume that he would step down since so few stcokholders supported him. He has not. This is all about a company that does what it bloody well wants. That is the reality of the top multinational companies.

Sorry to go on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:34 PM

Maybe the jury has considered Moore's entry as (docu)fiction and not as documentary?

Wolfgang (grin)


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Amos
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:39 PM

According to one report, the Cannes jury chose the film purely on merit, and not for political reasons.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:41 PM

Hi there DG, great to see you back.

GUEST, 25 May 04 - 08:40 AM

"And BTW, no one in the legitimate press is claiming Moore's documentary contains "conspiracy theories". The majority of the content of F911 is edited video clips from mainstream media."

Is that the mainstream media that is totally in the pocket of all those right-wing neo-cons everybody keeps harping on about? Certainly the reviews I've read about the film stated that while it was interesting it was just a rehash of so-called facts that aren't, rather loosely woven with 20 x 20 hindsight to create rather worn out and widely off mark conspiracy theories.

"The relationships between the bin Laden and Bush families are very well documented, though rarely reported upon."

That's right, it must get quite crowded down there in Texas, what with Dad and Mums bin Laden, plus the 51 children and their collective offspring, popping in and out of the Bush's place at least three or four times a week.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Amos
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:50 PM

I look forward to the day when Teribus and Doug come to their senses.

:>) (Oh, damn. Cat's loose among the pigeons again...How did that happen???)

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:51 PM

Huh???


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: semi-submersible
Date: 25 May 04 - 02:17 PM

One article on Moore's website http://www.michaelmoore.com/ quotes his agent, who was approached by Eisner, who angrily claimed Disney could lose substantial tax breaks in Florida if they were to "alienate Governor Bush" by allowing F911 to be distributed.

Unfortunately, I can't give an exact quote or link, because I can't raise Michael Moore's website today. Crashed under sudden load?

Guest, do you have a handle? It's not every "guest" who writes so well and tersely.

Maureen


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 04:49 PM

I've not been able to get to Michael Moore's website for a few days now ....


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Bobert
Date: 25 May 04 - 05:20 PM

Timing issues aside (conventions, 9/11 comission, ptisoner abuse investigations, etc, etc...) the fact that Disney is attempting to block the film is back-firing on them as the controversy is going to create more interest among the swing voters.

Yeah, Bush Repubs won't go to see it. Progressives will. So getting swing voters interested may be like waking a sleeping dog...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Blackcatter
Date: 25 May 04 - 05:36 PM

Hi Maureen,

Well that could be true, but I personally don't believe everything that Moore and his people say. Also - that could be an excuse with little merit, I don't know.

In the grand scheme of things, Bush and his cronies don't really care about the movie, most likely. His approval rating is ok and if the election was held today there's a good chance he'd win.

Moore's movie may change some votes and Bush may loose the election, but in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter. The current republicans (since Reagan) get into office and rape and pillage what they can, knowing full well they will have to leave eventually. But they don't care - they go back into private life and continue building their fortunes on the backs of the poor and the world.

If Kerry wins there will not be a fundamental change - it'll only be a bit safer if you're gay, poor, insane, wanting an abortion, or whatever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: semi-submersible
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:51 PM

The Michael Moore website's back online.

Blackcatter, it's true that the things we value are pillaged month by month. I've been practicing selective attention (denial, if you will) for years just to keep out of depression. (Having no TV helps me a lot.) But we always have to return to the fray sooner or later. Maybe some of the fragments we save will survive the next crash.

The snow job we get from all the mainstream media makes it hard to see what the real issues are. If Moore's cinematic skill can cut through the bafflegab, I think a lot of people will make up their minds. Moore entertains well enough to explore an issue (for a couple of hours instead of a ten-second sound bite) without losing the audience.

Opposition to these corporate moguls is pretty much entirely a grassroots effort. Victor Hugo in Les Misèrables quotes Marshal Suchet: "We are lost when the old women empty their chamberpots on our heads." We need Michael Moore's rabble-rousing skill.

The essential question is, what can we build that will work better? Can you recommend a good thread on this?


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:02 AM

Here's the Horsey cartoon for yesterday and today.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Blackcatter
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:04 AM

I'm afraid I can't help much.

In reality, I don't get why so many people put up with the crap - those that are well-off pray they stay that way and often-times do underhanded things to insure that. Those that are middle-class try to ignore that they are heavy in credit-card debt and may be only a few paychecks away from crashing and burning. Those with less spend all their time trying to get enough or doing stuff to forget they need to keep trying to get enough.

But instead of getting together they fight over stupid things and hoard when they can. They vote in the millions for the next American Idol.

So I live as simply as I can, help as many people worse off than me as I can and try not to get too involved in politics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 26 May 04 - 11:25 AM

"So I live as simply as I can, help as many people worse off than me as I can and try not to get too involved in politics."


Ditto, and for all the same reasons.


..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Blackcatter
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:10 PM

See Ellen - we're purrrrrrfect for each other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:29 PM

Now, Blackcatter, we can't hijack yet another thread with our furrtatious ways!..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Blackcatter
Date: 27 May 04 - 01:12 AM

I dunno - this ones getting boring and I've already been attacked by a GUEST.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 04 - 05:31 PM

Bon chance I say!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 04 - 06:30 PM

True. But you haven't been attacked yet by William Shatner. Look on the bright side, I say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Blackcatter
Date: 27 May 04 - 06:48 PM

Always look on the bright side of life (sorry - I don't know how to whistle).

As for the great W.S. - I say bring it on! I've gotten drunk with both James Doohan and George Takei - I've hot-tubbed with Dr. Whos numbers 2 through 5.

I know how to handle sci fi actors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 04 - 10:22 PM

Wow! I'm impressed. I'm impressed that anyone could even get into a hot tub that already had James Doohan in it. No, wait...it was "drunk", wasn't it? That I can believe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Blackcatter
Date: 27 May 04 - 10:28 PM

Never was in a hot tub with Jimmy - just the 5 Doctors. All in good shape (though it was a bit scary to see Peter Davison in a speedo . . .)


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: DougR
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:13 AM

My feelings about Michael Moore are well known here on the Mudcat. He cannot be described as a documentary film maker. Wolfgang jokingly hit it on the Mark. Moore is evidently quite good at fabricating "fact" and stringing them together in a film.

Fred Barnes was supposedly intereviewed by Moore in one of Michael Moore's early books and Barnes says he has never met the man.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Blackcatter
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:45 AM

Your right! GM never left Flint Michigan - The damn liar Moore!

And those murder stats in "Bowling" - a pack of lies - everyone knows that the firearm murder rate in the U.S. is tiny compared to Japan, the UK, Germany and all those other lawless counties.

And making Heston look like an idiot by letting speak - sheer genius! I certainly will never trust Moore again! Next thing you know he'll be talking about how Mudcat has thousands of folk music lyrics - NEVER! STOP THE LIES!


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 May 04 - 03:31 AM

And if Teribus had Moore in a room for three hours he would get the truth out of him,and if of you believe that you would believe anything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 28 May 04 - 03:49 AM

Blackcatter, I am now stuck with the image of you in a hot-tub with a bunch of Dr Whos. The only thing that would make it more bizaare would have been if Michael Moore had been in there with with you all- conducting an interview!

..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Blackcatter
Date: 28 May 04 - 11:46 AM

No Moore (ha!)

But I did get to play tin whistle with Patrick Troughton just a few months before he died.

By the way - the hot tub thing was in Miami in February nearly 20 years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 28 May 04 - 12:03 PM

Bet there would have been Less of Moore 20 years back!

..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Blackcatter
Date: 28 May 04 - 12:15 PM

No - he's pretty much always been that pudgy.

Not like me! (I've never been pudgy, just to clear that up).


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 28 May 04 - 12:20 PM

Well thanks, Blackcatter, under that huge overcoat could have been lurking almost anything!...

Go on, make a crack, you know you want to!

..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Amos
Date: 28 May 04 - 12:37 PM

Ellen, you mustn't tease them about what they have under their coats. It makes them feel frustrated...

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Blackcatter
Date: 28 May 04 - 12:59 PM

Making a crack is EXACTLY what I'd like to do with what's under my duster (overcoat).



By the way - I don't normally dress that way - that's part of my historical tour wardrobe. It's scary that that outfit is worth more than all the rest of my clothes combined.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:01 PM

Gulp


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: DougR
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:06 PM

I think you Michael Moore fans might enjoy reading an article in today's newspaper written by John Anderson of Newsday. Can't provide a blue clicky but you might find it by visiting the Newsday website. That is, if you're really interested. :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: semi-submersible
Date: 28 May 04 - 04:03 PM

Thanks, DougR. I found it at this address today.

Mr. Anderson says Moore (along with 2nd-place short film winner Jonas Geirnaert with "Flatlife") won by "a political rather than cinematic decision" and mentions jury president Tarantino's "association with Miramax."
Wong Kar-wai's love-it-or-hate-it "2046," on the other hand, "unlike almost anything else in or out of competition - challenged its audience intellectually, convinced the viewer he or she was part of something exciting and alive...."

I hope I get to see "2046" someday, and make my own judgement on which should have borne away the palm. However, I'm very glad I'll have the chance to see "Fahrenheit 9/11."

M


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: DougR
Date: 28 May 04 - 04:53 PM

M: I'm confident you will have an opportunity to see Michael Moore's film. Moveon.org, if no other organization will probably make that possible by arranging for distribution of the "documentary."

Ooooooo! Must check out the Blue Clicky at the bottom of the page. I can't imagine how a Blue Clicky inviting viewers to take a look at a website which is evidently critical of Michael Moore ever got on the Mudcat, ...but there it is!

In case it's not there when you tune in, the website is:michaelmoorehatesamerica.com

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Amos
Date: 28 May 04 - 04:56 PM

Anderseon states, in the linked article above, "Giving Tarantino and Co. the benefit of the doubt, Moore's win was a political rather than cinematic decision on a night that began on a political note: Jonas Geirnaert, who won second place among short films for his "Flatlife," pleaded with anyone watching in America not to vote for George W. Bush; actor Tim Roth, head of the Camera d'Or jury, which judges first films, seconded the motion, calling Geirnaert's words "extraordinarily brave."".

This is hardly accurate in light of the fact that Tarantino himself asserted that the film was awarded the Palme d'Or on merit rather than for political reasons. So how does contradicting him adversely and overtly constitute giving him the benefit of the doubt? Moore's win may just have been a cinematic, rather than apolitical victory.

But giving Anderson the benefit of the doubt in a more substantive way than he gives it to Tarantino, suppose Moore and the others WERE politically motivated? Given the dark and shaky horizons on our current political theaters, more power to them for throwing their weight in a more positive and pro-humanity political direction!! A LOT of actors and directors should be so politically active.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 May 04 - 06:55 PM

"Michael Moore Hates America"??

Now that's surely the most idiotic statement I've seen since-   
well, since the last time Dumbya opened his mouth.

Regards,

Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 04 - 07:00 PM

I was hoping this was about Christy


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Blackcatter
Date: 28 May 04 - 07:13 PM

Whatever ads that Google places at the bottom of each Mudcat page have to do with the content of the page - Google does it, not the hosts of the site. Max could block certain ads from Google, but I doubt he bothers. If he wanted to do that, he'd probably delete any negative messages about Moore as well. Clearly he does not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: semi-submersible
Date: 28 May 04 - 08:04 PM

Anderson began by connecting Tarantino with Miramax, hinting that the Palme d'Or will solve the studio's distribution problems for this film. (Uh, huh.)

I read the sentence Amos quoted to mean "If they didn't pick F911 for financial reasons, they picked it and Flatlife for their politics. See, the judges think it's brave to oppose GWB."

Evidently Anderson doesn't take dark and shaky horizons as given, and if he suspects Tarantino's motives, would discount his "merit" statement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: dianavan
Date: 29 May 04 - 12:30 PM

Michael Moore has a 20 minute interview with Nick Berg that was not inclued in the movie. He says he sent a copy to the family and is awaiting their approval before its released it to the public. The plot thickens!

I hope Michael Moore has alot of security. He is probably at the top of the hit list for Bush and Bush supporters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: DougR
Date: 29 May 04 - 08:10 PM

So Amos, when a column writer writes an opinion contrary to yours, or in this case also Tarantino's, it is not to be believed, right?

Yet you post columns regularly (The Guardian one for example)and expect that they be taken for the truth, even if there is room for doubt. Odd reasoning.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 04 - 11:52 AM

Ah DougR, your partisan prejudices not only blind you, but they make you look like a man who doesn't know what on earth he is talking about. Which you obviously don't, since you seem to think that MoveOn.org has the power and the inclination to get into the film distribution business.

The Newsday article, some of which I agree with (the part about the Hollywoodization of the festival), is mostly just a hateful screed against Moore, which is very nasty in a most personal way. Anyone who writes like that, attacking the person rather than criticizing the film, is immediately dismissed by me, as they should be by any reasonable person.

I do make distinctions DougR, between vicious personal attacks on George W. Bush, and legitimate political criticism of him as a political leader and of his policies. Despite my being on the radical left politically, I bear him no ill will personally, I just want to see him voted out of office, and the political leadership in Washington to change. To work towards that end is my right as a citizen in a democracy.

But taking cheap shots at an film icon at the apex of his career because you don't like his politics? That is just plain mean, and I'm most certainly NOT impressed with the article you provide a link to, although I will thank you for drawing attention to a journalist whom I had never encountered before. Now I know I can dismiss any of his criticisms, legitimate or otherwise, because he has poisoned the well with his unethical behavior. Clearly, he is one of the Rush Limbaugh/Sean Hannity/Barnum Bailey school of yellow journalism ilk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 04 - 12:11 PM

Also, I'll take reviews from legitimate film reviewers (like the New York Times, the International Federation of Film Critics) film reviews more seriously than the Newsday clown's so-called reviews any day, DougR. Cannes is a notoriously apolitical film event, and the overall critical response to this film is that it is Moore's masterpiece.

You do know that Moore's film style for which he is now quite famous, is to use the documentary film genre as political satire, and not just straight documentary, don't you DougR? That is what makes his work rise to the level it does on artistic merit, not his politics.

But it is clear the current American political right just doesn't get political satire and political parody. They have absolutely no sense of humor, and are completely incapable of laughing at themselves. Which is why they are so busy trying to censor all of it, by claiming that any satires or parodies of Bush/Cheney goes "too far".


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 04 - 12:27 PM

Here is a link to the NY Times review at Michael Moore's website so everyone can read it (the NYT requires registration to read archive and current articles), which actually deals critically with the film itself, just like a film review should:

"Michael Moore's Candid Camera"


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 04 - 01:17 PM

DougR, surely even a prick like you can see there is a differance between loving your country and loving the current leadership. If you can't then that goes long way to explaining your mind set.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: semi-submersible
Date: 30 May 04 - 07:26 PM

Anyone who writes like that ... is immediately dismissed ... by any reasonable person.
Now I know I can dismiss any of his criticisms, legitimate or otherwise, because he has poisoned the well with his unethical behavior.


Guest who writes well, I beg you, even if you don't choose Mudcat membership, at least to post with a distinctive handle like GUESTwriter, so we can distinguish your voice from those who stoop to attack a person anonymously (and without apology, to boot!)
Maureen

P.S. Thank you for the Moore's Candid Camera link. If the review is this wrenching, I wonder if I'm ready for the film.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Amos
Date: 30 May 04 - 08:22 PM

DougR:

I am perplexed as to what you are referring to. I simply pointed out that the columnist in question was contradicting himself.

He said he was giving someone the benefit of the doubt when he was moist energetically trying to discredit them, even at the sacrifice of evenhanded reportage. It is one thing to argue on behalf of a point of view but another altogether to assert that you are being objective while being extremely partisan.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 11:56 AM

LOS ANGELES (Zap2it.com) - Michael Moore's controversial documentary "Fahrenheit 9/11" will hit theaters Friday, June 4, and will sneak preview a day earlier online.


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Blackcatter
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 12:17 PM

So who's distributing it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: DougR
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 12:21 PM

Brothers Weinstein, Blackcatter.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Congratulation, Mr Moore
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 12:22 PM

Too soon too soon! I wish they'd have waited until later in the Summer. The closer to election time the better.

Still, I'll happily await the coming fireworks..xx..e


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