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BS: Lies, Lies, Lies

Ebbie 23 May 04 - 07:18 PM
GUEST,John O'Lennaine 23 May 04 - 07:58 PM
Bobert 23 May 04 - 08:09 PM
Alaska Mike 23 May 04 - 08:20 PM
Ebbie 23 May 04 - 08:29 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 23 May 04 - 08:45 PM
Bobert 23 May 04 - 08:57 PM
katlaughing 23 May 04 - 10:45 PM
Peace 23 May 04 - 11:24 PM
GUEST,sorefingers 23 May 04 - 11:51 PM
Ebbie 24 May 04 - 12:01 AM
GUEST,John O'Lennaine 24 May 04 - 12:29 AM
Ebbie 24 May 04 - 01:03 AM
Georgiansilver 24 May 04 - 05:47 AM
Bobert 24 May 04 - 08:45 AM
Greg F. 24 May 04 - 09:06 AM
Midchuck 24 May 04 - 09:35 AM
Amos 24 May 04 - 09:56 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 May 04 - 10:34 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 24 May 04 - 02:03 PM
Peace 24 May 04 - 06:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 May 04 - 06:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 May 04 - 07:37 PM
GUEST 24 May 04 - 07:44 PM
S O P 24 May 04 - 08:16 PM
Peace 24 May 04 - 08:26 PM
Amos 24 May 04 - 08:50 PM
Metchosin 24 May 04 - 10:05 PM
Bobert 24 May 04 - 11:14 PM
flattop 24 May 04 - 11:29 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 25 May 04 - 12:47 AM
Amos 25 May 04 - 12:59 AM
GUEST,Clint Keller 25 May 04 - 03:23 AM
Teribus 25 May 04 - 04:52 AM
GUEST 25 May 04 - 05:13 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 May 04 - 06:46 AM
Teribus 25 May 04 - 07:32 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 May 04 - 09:05 AM
GUEST,TIA 25 May 04 - 11:52 AM
Teribus 25 May 04 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,TIA 25 May 04 - 12:25 PM
Amos 25 May 04 - 12:36 PM
Teribus 25 May 04 - 12:50 PM
Amos 25 May 04 - 01:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 May 04 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 25 May 04 - 06:13 PM
dianavan 25 May 04 - 08:47 PM
Ebbie 25 May 04 - 09:11 PM
Little Hawk 25 May 04 - 09:19 PM
Bobert 25 May 04 - 09:32 PM
dianavan 25 May 04 - 11:04 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 26 May 04 - 12:12 AM
Stilly River Sage 26 May 04 - 11:32 AM
McGrath of Harlow 26 May 04 - 12:52 PM
GUEST,Larry K 26 May 04 - 02:42 PM
Amos 26 May 04 - 02:52 PM
Little Hawk 26 May 04 - 02:55 PM
Little Hawk 26 May 04 - 03:00 PM
Wolfgang 26 May 04 - 04:51 PM
Amos 26 May 04 - 04:57 PM
akenaton 26 May 04 - 05:59 PM
Little Hawk 26 May 04 - 11:37 PM
GUEST,Teribus 27 May 04 - 12:23 AM
dianavan 27 May 04 - 12:37 AM
GUEST,Clint Keller 27 May 04 - 01:04 AM
akenaton 27 May 04 - 03:24 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 May 04 - 03:34 AM
Gareth 27 May 04 - 05:07 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 May 04 - 06:07 AM
Little Hawk 27 May 04 - 08:27 AM
GUEST,Larry K 27 May 04 - 10:04 AM
Amos 27 May 04 - 10:09 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 May 04 - 11:10 AM
Chief Chaos 27 May 04 - 11:13 AM
Amos 27 May 04 - 11:49 AM
GUEST,TIA 27 May 04 - 12:24 PM
akenaton 27 May 04 - 01:22 PM
akenaton 27 May 04 - 01:31 PM
GUEST,Larry K 27 May 04 - 02:12 PM
Amos 27 May 04 - 02:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 May 04 - 02:34 PM
akenaton 27 May 04 - 04:25 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 27 May 04 - 05:35 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller (contd.) 27 May 04 - 05:40 PM
Little Hawk 27 May 04 - 06:01 PM
Gareth 27 May 04 - 07:22 PM
akenaton 27 May 04 - 07:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 May 04 - 08:01 PM
Little Hawk 27 May 04 - 08:14 PM
GUEST,Teribus 27 May 04 - 08:14 PM
Little Hawk 27 May 04 - 08:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 May 04 - 08:42 PM
akenaton 27 May 04 - 08:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 May 04 - 08:43 PM
Little Hawk 27 May 04 - 08:50 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 27 May 04 - 09:06 PM
Peace 27 May 04 - 09:22 PM
Bobert 27 May 04 - 09:35 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 28 May 04 - 01:20 AM
GUEST,Clint Keller 28 May 04 - 02:05 AM
Gareth 28 May 04 - 05:34 AM
McGrath of Harlow 28 May 04 - 05:48 AM
akenaton 28 May 04 - 06:34 AM
McGrath of Harlow 28 May 04 - 06:56 AM
Chief Chaos 28 May 04 - 12:55 PM
Little Hawk 28 May 04 - 01:15 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 28 May 04 - 02:02 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 28 May 04 - 02:10 PM
Amos 28 May 04 - 02:20 PM
Little Hawk 28 May 04 - 02:38 PM
Little Hawk 28 May 04 - 02:52 PM
GUEST,TIA 28 May 04 - 03:14 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 28 May 04 - 03:29 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 28 May 04 - 03:46 PM
Amos 28 May 04 - 05:01 PM
Little Hawk 28 May 04 - 08:34 PM
Little Hawk 28 May 04 - 08:45 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 29 May 04 - 12:20 AM
McGrath of Harlow 29 May 04 - 01:05 PM
freda underhill 19 Jun 05 - 08:44 AM

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Subject: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 May 04 - 07:18 PM

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20040523/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_attack_5

"There was no evidence of a wedding: no decorations, no musical instruments found, no large quantities of food or leftover servings one would expect from a wedding celebration," Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said Saturday. "There may have been some kind of celebration. Bad people have celebrations, too."

But video that APTN shot a day after the attack shows fragments of musical instruments, pots and pans and brightly colored beddings used for celebrations, scattered around the bombed out tent. "

Damn them. Damn them. Damn them. We can't believe a damn one of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 23 May 04 - 07:58 PM

"...a handful of women — perhaps four to six — were caught up in the engagement.
They may have died from some of the fire that came from the aircraft."

I guess it's OK then.
I can undserstand the soldiers on the ground becoming desensitised, but it seems the entire administration has become so too, so much so that they expect it of us as well.
The above statement is intended as some sort of mitigating crcumstance.
It strikes me as more of an admission of hopeless and despairing loss of purpose.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Bobert
Date: 23 May 04 - 08:09 PM

I'm beginning to know just how a lot of Germans felt in the late 30's. When I look at Donald Rumsfeld, all I see ia a Nazi. He looks like a Nazi. He talks like a Nazi. I saw a picture of him in the paper this week in Iraq with his suit and tan botts and thought to myself... "Hey, this guy is a Nazi."

And I am very angry that such a small minority of very radical thinking people have somehow pulled off a coup, stolen our country and brainwashed so many folks into thinking colonialism and imperialism is patriotic...

Shame on America... shame...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 23 May 04 - 08:20 PM

Bush and his cronies have to lie, Ebbie. If they admitted to the truth, even their conservative supporters would call for their impeachment. These crooks have no use for the truth. I don't think they ever have or ever will. It will get even worse if the lying bastards win in November.

They are holding back now so as not to awaken their brainwashed followers before the election. If they do win you can expect bigger deficits, more tax breaks for the rich, a manditory draft, escalation of the Iraq war, further deterioration of our environment, higher interest rates, higher jobless numbers, and a continuation of the fear mongering that has marked this administration since it began.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 May 04 - 08:29 PM

But what can we do? I'd like to storm the streets before the nation's Capitol.

What I truly, truly want is for the bush, et al, to go down this fall in total overwhelming defeat. I want them to have to slink away in the dead of night because they don't dare show their faces. I want them to know fear, deadly fear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 23 May 04 - 08:45 PM

Truly we are not privy to the inner workings of the administration---nor Bill Clinton's.   Given, however, reportage by those not "embedded" and books by those few who have accessed the White House (Woodward,Clarke,etc;) one has to conclude that this is not a presidencyt anymore---this is a secretive assumption of a "throne". Worst--by someone who, I believe, does not really understand the ramififations of what he has allowed his underlings---read VP--create.

Can you believe that any Pres. of memory needs his VP to accompany him to a hearing, needs his VP to help formulate policy, and after 9-11 listens to his advice rather than leading. Can you picture FDR, HST, LBJ---and even RR. You know---I don't think that even Nixon did not control a situation to a point. ( I speak only of recent memory here) in such a situation?   

I have not yet seen the new Moore film---but the descriptions of this Pres behaviour boggle the mind---and,as the critics say, it Moore's best and low key work yet.   


Not an endorsement of the film. Merely a statement regarding the ineptitude of our dear old Dubya.

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Bobert
Date: 23 May 04 - 08:57 PM

Ebbie, Ebbie, Ebbie...

First of all, you are doing a lot by speaking your mind here. There are folks, believe it or not, here at Catbox who aren't decided. Okay, very few. But some...

Next, write letters to your local paper. You don't have to say you are Democrat or anything. Just poke holes in Bush's policies.

Write your congresspeople on issues where Bush is weak... Lots all of them... Stick to issues. Poke more holes.

Send money to John Kerry. I haven't but will even though I may not be able to hold my nose hard enough to vote for him. At least if I vote for Nadar, I will know that I at least sent 25 bucks to the Dems...

Put bumber stickers on your car that are either anti-Bush, pro-peace 'er pro Kerry. Please don't put an "Anybody But Bush" sticker. It is insulting and counterproductive...

Lastly, get to work in the campaign. Yoy are just one phone call away from gettin' involved. Campaigns need volunteers to knock on doors and work phones and I promise that you will meeet some really cool folks workin' in a campaign.... I still have friends to this very day who I knocked on doors with for Bobby Kennedy back in '68...

So there's a few things you can do to make a difference...

Have at it...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 May 04 - 10:45 PM

Send money to Kerry, yes, but also urge everyone to go see Michael Moore's movie, Farenheit 9/11, as soon as it gets distributed. A lot of people around the world have high hopes it will be the shrub's undoing.

Also, moveon.org needs donations of any amount to help with their voter registration (pdf file) efforts. What they have been accomplishing with grassroots participation is downright inspiring.

luvyakat


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 04 - 11:24 PM

At present, I can think of no greater calamity for American citizens or people of this world than another four years of Bush and his crew. The Neocon agenda is clear when one reads the policy positions of Wolfowitz. (Google   wolfowitz, policy   and take your pick.) I hope Americans are smart enough to see what's happening to their country, and as a result, our world. Truly, I hope.

Bruce Murdoch


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 23 May 04 - 11:51 PM

Rumsfeld is off his rocker - now he wants to ban all cameras from US forces in Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 May 04 - 12:01 AM

Sometimes lately I get very depressed about this. By nature I think I'm fairly upbeat in most things that I do but this one has me fried.

I do most of the things already that you listed, bobert. I don't own a car so I can't do bumper stickers, and I live in a state-owned house museum (non-partisan) so I can't put things in the windows or on the lawns. But I send money to several organizations (TruthOut; DCN; MoveOn; the John Kerry campaign; I write letters and I talk. I wear a button, and that has led to some interesting conversations. I haven't volunteered yet to do phone calls- I'll call around and see who is in charge of that.

Thanks, y'all. Getting down doesn't help, I know. I can't say that I'm cynical; I do have hope. I feel that this gang can be gotten out if we can get the word out so that then we can get people in who fit the standards of normal government. The ones we have now (every single damn one) made absolutely sure they wouldn't have to go to war when it was their turn, but they are cavalier and uncaring about sending others. Revealing that when it comes to prisoners of war they have no concept of law or decency is just over the top.

Here's one view:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/052404C.shtml

"I believe we are absolutely on the brink of failure," retired Marine Gen. Joseph P. Hoar, a former commander of U.S. forces in the Middle East, told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. "We are looking into the abyss. We cannot start soon enough to begin the turnaround."

What in the world is the matter with some Americans? Knee jerk neocons who decide ahead of time that they will believe everything that their leader says and support everything he does aren't worth - never mind. God, I'm glad I'm not married.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 24 May 04 - 12:29 AM

Ebbie,
It's a depressing situation. Anyone with half a brain and half an ounce of compassion is depressed about it. Worry about the situation by all means but don't worry about it depressing you, it's natural.
It shows you're still human when so many around you are becomming less and less so.

As for being cynical, once again, a healthy dose of cynicism keeps you sane.

As for being married, I don't really see what's wrong with that.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 May 04 - 01:03 AM

:) John, I do get carried away, I guess. I was thinking of being married or close to someone who is a knee JERK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 24 May 04 - 05:47 AM

With all Politicians it seems "All's fair in love, war and Politics". Which of them does not tell lies in some way???. They start by winning your popularity with promises of a better future and end up lying about the past.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Bobert
Date: 24 May 04 - 08:45 AM

Yeah, all politicans do lie but most don't lie to get their fellow citizens to to die in a war of *choice* (see brucie's suggestion to check out Wolfowitz)...

And John hit the nail on the head with his "half a brain" observation. If one looks around and compared America intellecrually now verses 20 years ago one will see a disturbing trend going on. Anerica is being dumbed down at a scarey pace. We have way too many trained people, who don't ask "why" and not enough educated folks who do ask "why"...

When I moved from Richmond, Va. to Harpers Ferry, WV (Wsahington DC area) some 19 years ago it was rare to see an article about NASCAR in the "Washington Post" sports section. Now, there's something just about every day... Hmmmm? Not too intellectual, IMHO...

But hang in there, Ebbie... Keep at it... We haven't lost America quite yet. There's still some chance that we can pull it out of this tail spin...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 May 04 - 09:06 AM

I hope Americans are smart enough to see what's happening to their country, and as a result, our world.

I sympathize, but its a forlorn hope. Most U.S. voters don't give a rats ass about the rest of the world as long as they can keep driving their SUV's and watching "reality"[sic] TV. Check the percentage that still enthisiastically support this gang of criminals and STILL believe Eye- Rack was responsible for Sept. 11, and all the rest of the patently bogus neo-con/neo-fascist/neo-imperialist propaganda.

You cannot reach a reasoned accommodation with the brain dead.

Prepare for Four More Years, Bruce.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Midchuck
Date: 24 May 04 - 09:35 AM

I would like to disagree with Greg F.

Trouble is, I can't.

I do think, though, that if the price of gasoline - and diesel, and jet fuel, and heating oil - keeps going up, there will be a truly severe recession, possibly amounting to a depression, in this country. We're too dependant on cheap transportation for any other result. And the number of people with massive unsecured credit card debt will all stop paying at once, and the banking system could be in real trouble. If this happens before November, the present administration is bound to be in real trouble. The people will want blood.

I'm not sure even getting rid of Bush would be worth the suffering involved, though.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 24 May 04 - 09:56 AM

Midchuck:

For once, a doomsday scenario that I can see happening -- allowing for the natural slop in the "all stop paying at once" expression.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 04 - 10:34 AM

Remember "Chemical Ali" who was still going on about Saddam's overwhelming victory as the US tanks rolled into Baghdad?

He's got a natural successor in that Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, hasn't he?   When you are up for teling a lie, lay it on thick, and ignore any evidence that shows you are lying:

"There was no evidence of a wedding: no decorations, no musical instruments found, no large quantities of food or leftover servings one would expect from a wedding celebration."

Which, as the video evidence and the reports sent back by Associated Press and other journalists on the spot, is a direct and demonstrable lie:

An Associated Press reporter and photographer, who interviewed more than a dozen survivors a day after the bombing, were able to identify many on the wedding party video - which runs for several hours.

APTN also travelled to Makr el-Deeb the day after the attack to film what the survivors said was the wedding site. A devastated building and remnants of the tent, pots and pans could be seen...


I'm sure Kimmitt is not stupid enough to think anyone listening to him believes him - but the quotes are there to be used to muddy the waters in the sound-bite media that's supposed to pacify people back home who follow Rumsfeld's advice, and don't read papers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 May 04 - 02:03 PM

I think that was the comical Ali, McG, rather than the chemical one, but good points.

The admin seems to be making much of the fact that where the video was filmed has not been authenticated. Yet it features musicians from Baghdad, and youngsters related to the marriage couple. Given that the musicians and the youngsters were all killed in the US assault, what other explanation could there be for how this video was made? Even without the video I had found the eye=witness accounts compelling, as all the journos I've seen reporting from the debris obviously did too.

I must admit I had thought MArk Kimmitt was a decent sort, but he has demeaned himself pedalling so blatant a lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 04 - 06:11 PM

Won't take but 5% of them what voted for Bush to vote for someone else, and maybe Kerry gets in. (I haven't done the math--there are so many smart people here that one of them will do it anyway.) Ya figure?


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 04 - 06:18 PM

Right there - Chemical Ali was Saddam's cousin, linked to the Halabja gas massacre. Comical Ali was a much less unsavoury character, just doing his job as a press spokesman, which was to lie through his teeth when his bosses required. Like Kimmitt, in that respect.
................
How's this for struggling on the hook?: "We still don't believe that there was a wedding or a wedding party going on when we hit in the early hours of the morning," a senior military official said, adding that daylight scenes on film might be of a wedding held there the day before, reports Reuters.

That's taken from the Muslim American Society website report todayVideo of Iraq Wedding Party Released With a picture to break your heart.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 04 - 07:37 PM

"I had thought Mark Kimmitt was a decent sort."

How about this quote from him in yesterday's press briefing: "One could say, yes, it is true that out in the desert you need to have a rifle to protect yourself against Ali Baba..." I grant you he doesn't appear top have called them "ragheads", but...<


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 04 - 07:44 PM

Maybe he was having another of his fainting spells


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Subject: A Fair Solution According To You?
From: S O P
Date: 24 May 04 - 08:16 PM

Why don't you guys form a club, get yourselves some tickets, go over to Iraq and plug for the restoration of Saddam Hussein and as many of the playing cards as you can find alive and reconstitute a superior government, according to your best sense of outraged justice.

Just a thought...


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 04 - 08:26 PM

Wrong question, S O P. It is already supposed to be straightened out in Iraq. It ain't. The replacement of one dictatorial bastard with another dictatorial bastard isn't what was supposed to happen. No one has even hinted that Hussein should be restored. Until you, that is. The thread is about lies told to the American people by their government and its representatives in a war zone. Some Americans object. If I were American, I would object with them.

Bruce M


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 24 May 04 - 08:50 PM

May 12, 2004   (letter to the editor, as appeared in the Boston Globe)

THE BUSH administration seems to have a serious problem with reality. The most recent reality challenge is the policy of torture in both Iraq and Afghanistan, which the administration is frantically redefining as "abuse," "excesses," and "humiliation." We even have Secretary Rumsfeld describing footage of several American soldiers "having sex" with a female Iraqi prisoner. Let's have a little plain English here. "Having sex" with a prisoner is known as "rape." Systematic beatings are called "torture." Excesses that lead to death are called "murder." The hundreds of women and children in mass graves in Fallujah are the product of a "massacre." Taken together, all of these add up to "atrocities."

The dissemination of "incomplete information" from "imperfect intelligence" is called "lies." The billions of dollars that Halliburton and Bechtel have reaped in profits are called "war profiteering." The invasion of Iraq is called "illegal." The destruction of America's international standing is called "permanent." And Texaco/Phillips's high bid for Iraqi oil is called "why we are in Iraq."

ERICA VERRILLO Williamsburg


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Metchosin
Date: 24 May 04 - 10:05 PM

thank you Amos.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Bobert
Date: 24 May 04 - 11:14 PM

Well written letter. Thanks fir sharing it, Amos...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: flattop
Date: 24 May 04 - 11:29 PM

No egg salad sandwiches with the crusts cut off - no empty vodka bottles or broken wine glasses amongst the corpses - no torn copies of Modern Bride or giftwrapped toaster ovens - how could this be a proper wedding?

I doubt that these spokesmen believe what they are saying themselves, let alone expect others to believe. What most people on all sides of the circle can now agree on is that the poop is in the pudding. No one really knows what to do about it but it might be a starting point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:47 AM

Bob Herbert pretty well summed up my feelings in the last paragraph of his editorial in the NY Times today:

"There's a terrible sense of dread filtering across America at the moment and it's not simply because of the continuing fear of terrorism and the fact that the nation is at war. It's more frightening than that. It grows out of the suspicion that we all may be passengers in a vehicle that has made a radically wrong turn and is barreling along a dark road, with its headlights off and with someone behind the wheel who may not know how to drive."

Those arrogant swine are destroying my country on every level.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:59 AM

Jeeze, I wonder where his head has been for th elast few years? I am happy to give him credit documenting this so-called "growing sense of dread" but a lot of us have felt nothing else since November, 2000. From my perspective it has taken a lot of people a loooong time to wake up some.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 25 May 04 - 03:23 AM

Yes, Amos, and it seems those fearless statesmen leading our are as easily duped as the most ignorant mouth-breathing Limbaugh followers.

After 9/11 the local paper asked its readers if their patriotism had changed. Kind of an odd question, I thought. But I wrote that my patriotism consisted of a loyalty to the land itself, and to the principles set out in the Constitution (rather than the people in the government) and it hadn't changed any.

Then in the second paragraph I said something to the effect that I hoped a misguided patriotism wouldn't lead us into excesses like the internment of the Japanese in WWII.

I didn't even say anything about My Lai, but the paper cut that paragraph out. Actually, I was surprised they kept the first paragraph, because it was a my-country-right-or-wrong-follow-our-leader time then. You remember.

But if a retired hack artist could see that much why couldn't the people in congress see even more? They're professionals.

Of course, I've heard that professional con men are easily conned.

clint

--Anyway, like I said, that image of speeding on a bad road with a useless driver described my feelings well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 04 - 04:52 AM

Reading through this thread I reach the conclusion that some of you are absolutely priceless.

So the problems of the world (at least as much of the world as you guys see it) is all down to the last four years and the personal responsibility of one man and his administration. That of course, as a contention is patently ridiculous.

Come November you all toddle off to vote, now say you get your oft-stated hearts desire and you end up next January with a new President. What do you think is going to change? I think you will find by 2008 - it will be very little. Things in life do not happen like somebody turning on a switch, they take time. If you want your recession/depression, then by all means follow the Kerry plan to full employment. You want the world to love you - that would be completely new - apart from a few old friends who have realised, and appreciated, what America has contributed to democracy and freedom in this world - the rest of the world has never loved America, envied yes, and in that envy is the realisation that they cannot achieve the same, so the next best thing is to try and destroy it.

From McGrath of Harlow's post above (24 May 04 - 06:18 PM)

"Comical Ali was a much less unsavoury character, just doing his job as a press spokesman, which was to lie through his teeth when his bosses required. Like Kimmitt, in that respect."

I would replace the last sentence to read:

"Like The Daily Mirror's correspondent with his photographs, in that respect."

Reading through the article that Kevin linked to, it is obvious that inconsistencies do exist and they all have to be sorted out. Doesn't suit the knee-jerk reactions of most of you, I know, but that would be the more rational course to take.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 05:13 AM

Why replace it? Kimmitts statements have yet to be shown to be true!


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 04 - 06:46 AM

There are indeed inconsistencies between the things Kimmitt has said and what the video evidence shows, and they need to be sorted out.

Since the US military are the people in the dock on this, so to speak, it is open to question whether they can be trusted to do the sorting out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 04 - 07:32 AM

Alternatively GUEST, 25 May 04 - 05:13 AM

Kimmitts statements have yet to be shown to be false!

MGOH's statements indicate that he firmly believes that the US Military are lying - mind you he did make the same assertions regarding the Mirror photographs, but has not bothered to come back up on the relevant thread to acknowledge the fact that those photographs were fake as many contended at the time of them being published.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 04 - 09:05 AM

"...he did make the same assertions regarding the Mirror photographs, " I don't think I did actually.

I think the only time I even mentioned those photographs was in a post where I said: "I note that the people involved have been sure to try to stay unidentifiable - in contrast to the US version. (That could seem to suggest that the US lot were assuming that what they were up to was OK with the authorities, but the British weren't. But there could be other reasons for that difference.)"

"Other reasons" intentionally indicated an element of doubt on my part about the authenticity of the photos - as I seem to remember Teribus picked up in a subsequent post.

True enough, I do believe that in this case the US military are trying to mislead, and to cover up for a bad mistake. One reason for this is that in a similar incident in Afghanistan when a wedding party was simlarly attacked with even higher massive loss of life (54 killed, 120 wounded), the military authorities persisted in trying to deny what had been done, in face of the evidence. According to recent mainstream media reports, there has still been no apology for that incident.

This link contains a summary of that episode -Accountability Ignored in Kakrak Errant Bombing. There are quotes from the military in the report, dated July 11th 2002, which are essentially similar to what Kimmitt has been saying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:52 AM

"Things in life do not happen like somebody turning on a switch, they take time...You want the world to love you - that would be completely new - apart from a few old friends who have realised, and appreciated, what America has contributed to democracy and freedom in this world - the rest of the world has never loved America"

In the world I inhabit, JUST like turning on a switch, it took GWB less than 18 months to alter world opinion from post-911 overwhelming sympathy and support to overwhelming disgust and dismay.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:16 PM

Thanks for pointing that out to me Guest TIA. So, all that overwhelming disgust and dismay, is why intelligence services, law enforcement agencies, port security and customs, world-wide, are enjoying the unprecedented degree and level of co-operation they are experiencing today. Interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:25 PM

You just danced over to a new point. Your previous post should apparently have read:

"You want the world to love you - that would be completely new - apart from a few old friends {and intelligence services, law enforcement agencies, port security and customs} who have realised, and appreciated, what America has contributed to democracy and freedom in this world - the rest of the world {except for the intelligence services, law enforcement agencies, port security and customs} has never loved America."


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:36 PM

So, all that overwhelming disgust and dismay, is why intelligence services, law enforcement agencies, port security and customs, world-wide, are enjoying the unprecedented degree and level of co-operation they are experiencing today. Interesting.

I have talked to a few of the people who have provided these unprecedented levels of cooperation. And in the cases I have spoken to the reason for the unprecedented levels of cooperation is unprecedented levels of (often invasive) demand, plus high levels of intimidation.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:50 PM

Nice one Amos, but it doesn't wash, the process, as you should know, is a two way street - that doesn't happen with "invasive" demands or intimidation.

Doesn't really happen relying on overwhelming disgust or dismay either


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:01 PM

I guess it's my turn to go "Huh?", T. Describe this 2-way street for me, would you? When I fly for example, all the initiative and all the control is in the hands of the gorillas hired to do the Rodina Security bit, and my contribution is limited to being inconvenienced and bullied and biting my tongue.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:12 PM

I'm not clear whether Teribus is saying (a)that the fact that agencies in various countries may be cooperating more because they want to avoid bombings and so forth disproves that there is great deal of "overwhelming disgust or dismay" towards "America"; or (b) - in the light of this cooperation, it doesn't matter whether there is a growth in "overwhelming disgust or dismay" towards "America".

Is it a matter of "Nobody likes us, everybody hates us - we don't care", as the Millwall fans put it?

The thing is, there isn't just one "America" - the very people who feel most passionate dislike of all that the current Bush administration stands for are often the same people who feel most strongly in sympathy and solidarity with the other America that this administration so evidently detests.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 25 May 04 - 06:13 PM

"So the problems of the world (at least as much of the world as you guys see it) is all down to the last four years and the personal responsibility of one man and his administration. That of course, as a contention is patently ridiculous."

That's your patently ridiculous contention, Teribus, not mine. I contend that the US & much of the world is worse off than it was before Bush took office,and much of that is due to Bush and his merry men.

Setting up a straw man is not a tool of reason or logic; it's a tool of propaganda.

Your statement is not priceless, it's worthless.

Except as a bullying tactic.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: dianavan
Date: 25 May 04 - 08:47 PM

I'm going to get really generally in this post regarding outside perceptions of the U.S.

Prior to 911, the U.S. was the envy of many. This envy could, at times, turn to jealousy and even mild hostility toward those who had so much but basically it was still the land of opportunity. After 911, the world symapthized with all of those who had lost loved ones and the brave people of New York.

Now, the world is dismayed and disgusted. Not only does most of the world see Bush as an evil occupier, they pity Americans for their loss of freedom and apparent helplessness. The U.S. is no longer a nation to be emulated. The U.S. is loathed and feared.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 May 04 - 09:11 PM

Ha! Your mother wears combat boots.




:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 May 04 - 09:19 PM

I think the most notable emotion stirred up in the World by the USA, teribus, is not envy, but fear (and also hatred, in many cases). I am Canadian, and I certainly do not envy the USA nor have I ever envied the USA...and I lived there for 10 years. I pity the USA sometimes, though, because of its cultural blindness.

My above remarks are not directed at individual American citizens, but at the collective power system and the plutocrats who rule over them and who control the media and most of the money.

I do not envy the atomic missiles, the stealth bombers or the B-52 squadrons. I do not envy the high crime rate and the huge prison population. I do not envy the fast food empires. I do not envy the delusions of Hollywood and the reality TV shows. I do not envy the corporate-sponsored phony two party system that actually offers American voters almost no real choice at all. I do not envy the ability to harangue a confused population into supporting naked aggression. I do not envy excess, irresponsibility, hypocrisy, and corporate insanity posturing as "liberty and justice for all".

Just because the USA once fought someone worse than themselves (the Nazis and Imperial Japan) does not for all time place the USA at the right hand of God wielding the sword of eternal justice...nor should it obscure the fact that the USA has itself frequently launched unjustified, opportunistic military actions against small countries, and is presently doing precisely that in Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Bobert
Date: 25 May 04 - 09:32 PM

Well, T-Bird, I really haven't had a lot of time to knock heads but, what the hey...

Yeah, the world has had lots of problems for a long, long time and, no, they didn't all come about in the last 4 years. However, my friend...

... just consider the the following hypothesis:

Whereas George Bush didn't create many of the problems he has confronted, he has been *too* decisive and *too* deliberate in trying to find solutions. He is not a *thoughtful* person by nature and this is not what is needed for the president of the world's only super power. He gives in too easily to those who are not capable of seeing anything as either balck or white... Well most of the problems are mired in grayness and thus not problems that a "black-n-white" thinker can solve. We see this in just about evert policy area Bush tends to take *extreme* positions rather than positions where *compromise* has been an important element of the policy decision.

Now I don't blame Bush entirely fir his failures though he gets a good share of the blame. But he is also a victim of a failing political system that has evolved into a system of polorization, intolerance and gridlock... Could he change it? Well, maybe and maybe not. But after seeing just how damaging a winner-take-all mentality is to the US and the world in general, it needs changing.

One thing I can credit Bush for doing. During his campaign he said that if he were elected he would change the *tone* in Washington. He has done that. The last time is was so bad was during the McCarthy days... And that's pushing 50 years...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: dianavan
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:04 PM

Little Hawk - You said it much better than I.

Bobert - I remember coming home from school and finding my mom in front of the t.v. watching the McCarthy hearings or some news about it. She was crying! Now I know why.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:12 AM

...but what about the strip malls and the smut, Little Hawk? ;^)

No really... that was an exemplary post Little Hawk, and I thank you for it. And Amos... thanks for "May 12, 2004   (letter to the editor, as appeared in the Boston Globe)..."

But most of all, I thank each and every one of you that find the time in your busy day to day to get informed, and stay informed. I just wish the current administration could validate the research we're doing... ;^) ...instead of being against lucid consideration every step of the way.

Interesting thread!
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 May 04 - 11:32 AM

You might want to listen to Terry Gross's interview with film critic John Powers on her program yesterday. He discusses Moore's film and the Bush campaign.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:52 PM

I gather that in Baghdad the man is now actually referred to by Iraqis as "Comical Kimmitt" - Tigris Tales


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 26 May 04 - 02:42 PM

Let me get this straight.   Bush lies and you look to Michael Moore for the truth.   Why not just go straight to Bagdad Bob.   He is at least at accurate as Michael Moore.

If I understand all of you correctly, Clinton lied but nobody died so the lies are OK.   Kerry lies but he isn't Bush so we have to vote for him so it is ok.    Hillary lies but she is the smartest woman in the world so it is ok.    Bush lied about WMD's (along with the rest of the world) so he must be impeached or shot before a firing squad, or worse yet- forced to listen to the entire Al Franken show 5 days a week.

It is interesting to note that David Kay stated that Bush never asked him to lie about WMD's.   Woodward stated in his book that Bush honestly believed what he was doing and didn't ask anyone to lie.    Most other people who have come foward have stated that Bush honestly believed that there were WMD's.   We have found labs, plans, long range missles, Ricilin, Saran gas, and mustard gas yet we still say there were no WMD's.   What will you say if they find the wmd's in Syria in October just before the election.   That Bush lied when he told us the Wmds were in Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 26 May 04 - 02:52 PM

Larry:

There is a world of differenc ein intent between Moore and Bush. Bush lied and if your argument is that he said what he believed ot be true than he is too stupid to survive, let alone muck with the nation. And muck with it he has.

Both Moore and Bush use rhetoric, but the differenc eis one used it to unleash the fire of destructive war-mongering, to spill blood, destroy lives and leave behind the dead of both sides. The other used it to change the leadertship of a country that was pursuing a distorted and harmful path.

I think these differences should be so blindingly obvious as to need no explication, unless one is addressing a hypnotic subject or a blind person.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 May 04 - 02:55 PM

No, Larry, you don't understand all of us correctly... :-)

Ever heard of a politician who didn't lie? If a politician told the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth...he/she would not get elected in the first place or even nominated! Why? Because the truth is highly disturbing and would require fundamental changes in popular culture. Besides, I doubt that they even KNOW the whole truth, unless they are infallible and omniscient...but I digress...

They all lie. What people who oppose Bush on this forum are actually upset about is his general policies, foreign and domestic...the fact that he has no doubt lied on various occasions is very much secondary to that, I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 May 04 - 03:00 PM

Let me put it another way...if you really, really dislike a politician tremendously, then you get mad when you find out he lied. REALLY MAD! That's human nature.

But...when you basically like a politician, then you get mad when other people SAY that he lied!

Still, they all lie.

It's really quite simple.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 May 04 - 04:51 PM

The TEST: "How do you react (feel) when seeing a picture of president Bush?"

(Yes, it was not completely serious and, yes, it was in a slightly left German magazine and, no, it was not representative):

"Happy - he has so cheerful eyes"            6 %
"Timid - he may be armed"                   8 %
"Angry - I now cough when eating a pretzel" 55 %
"neutral - I see nothing but emptiness"    23 %
"cool - I don't care about him"             8 %

Wolfgang (missing the serious alternative "sorry - he has done more damage to the USA than anybody else in recent times")


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 26 May 04 - 04:57 PM

Hmm..about time the American Right took a leaf from Germany's book -- I mean MODERN Germany....


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 04 - 05:59 PM

OK you pinkos...Isnt it lovely to have our opinions vindicated by events.
We were all so right, and Teribus,Doug,Larry and all the other true blues were so wrong ,although they are so insecure,that to admit it would destroy them.
But,before we sink into a self -satisfied stupor,lets remember one thing the Bush gang are saying which is not a lie.
Islamic fundamentalism...."terrorism",constitutes the greatest threat ever to face the Western "democracies".
No matter how much we despise the actions and motives of the scum who control us, we should never lose sight of the fact that the leaders of Islam see Western culture as an even greater threat and are determined to wipe it out through increasing terrorist activity.
If the Coalition withdrew from Iraq,dont think that Islamic terrorism would stop,it certainly will not.
Just because Bush andBlair are patently using the wrong tactics against the fundamentalists,the threat to every one of us still exists,and these madmen wont care if were pink or blue....were all "infidels".
Waht we goin to do about it??...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 May 04 - 11:37 PM

The only thing on this planet strong enough to wipe out western civilization is the power of Nature itself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 27 May 04 - 12:23 AM

About what have we been so wrong Ake?


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: dianavan
Date: 27 May 04 - 12:37 AM

I'll take a stab at that, Teribus.

How about thinking that might is right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 27 May 04 - 01:04 AM

Well. I have some ideas.

The first thing we do is remember the words of St. Franklin Delano: "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."

Most of are much more likely to be killed by a drunk with an automobile than we are by terrorists.

I am told that terrorism is only politically effective when practiced by a government against its own people. It's not the terrorists that have infringed on our constitutional rights. They didn't pass the Patriot Act and that's a real threat. We are more likely to be imprisoned indefinitely without charges or counsel by our own government, not invading Iraqis. It's not the terrorists that bulldoze mountain tops and fill the valleys.

We have to give up this war against an abstract noun. "War on Terror" is nonsense. We need to get rid of specific terrorists, perhaps, but War on Terror will work about as well as the War on Drugs has; you can get all the drugs you want in prison, the most tightly controlled environments we have around here.

Terrorism is a crime, not a war. We got Timothy McVeigh by old fashioned cop work, not by declaring war on the mountain states.

And we should quit doing things that we know don't work. How long have Irish & Basque terrorists been with us? Have we learned anything from that?

We should get an administration that doesn't think dissent is traitorous. If you only listen to people who agree with you, you don't learn.

And if we figure out what to do don't expect it to work quickly. Blitzkrieg don't work.

There's more, but my index fingers are tired...

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 04 - 03:24 AM

Please address the point of my post .
What are we going to do about Islamic Fundamentalism?
Poke it with a stick ,as in Afghanistan and Iraq?
Or do we withdraw from the Middle East and buy a few more years.
I dont know why you all seem to see terrorism as an attack on each of us personally,the individual is unimportant in this case.
The terrorists now have the means and the will to cause widespread disruption within our economies,our own panic and greed will then finish off the job.
Stop thinking about planes and bombs ,terrorism is becomming more and more sophisticated, and they will use our weaknesses in their own interests.
An example of this can be seen in the "Iranian spy" saga....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 03:34 AM

"the leaders of Islam see Western culture as an even greater threat and are determined to wipe it out through increasing terrorist activity."

That's simply not an accurate way of summing up the situation. The Al Qaeda franchise is very much a minority thing - it's estimaterd that, although greatly increased by the antics of the last couple of years by Bush and Blair and co, there are perhaps 18,000 "potential operatives". That's formidable - but there are an estimated 1,300,000,000 Muslims. And Al Qaeda and Co are not their leaders, for all that they might like to take on that role.

And it's true enough that probably quite a lot of those are people who see "Western culture" as a threat. And they aren't alone in that, given what "Western culture" is actually a euphemism for. But to say that they are "determined to wipe it out through increasing terrorist activity" is just not true.

Yes, Al Qaeda and such are scary - but as for "greatest threat" – I can't see how this begins to compare with the fear of global nuclear war that we lived through in the last century. Or the environmental threats that are looming over us in this century.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Gareth
Date: 27 May 04 - 05:07 AM

Ake - You have put matters in the correct perspective.

There is amongst some, and only a few, 'Catters a knee-jerk anti Americanism/Anti Bush reaction. Some of those few who seem to only inhabit the BS posts to their sole satisfaction.

Negotiation and dialogue should work to remove the causation of violence and terrorism. This assumes the 'other side' wishes dialogue.

In the case of 'Ultras' there seems to be no wish for any negotiation or dialog.

What I think you did not point out was that it only requires a very small percentage of any religious or racial mass to provide an effective "terrorist/freedom fighter" nucleus.

Given the latest press reports of 10,000 + al-quaida 'warriors! Waiting to seek death that then that represents a miniscule percentage of the Middle Eastern Muslim population. Unfortunately, and even given gross exaggeration, that represents sufficient cadre to perform the odd nasty or so.

If I remember correctly, tho I cant recall the source, French Government figures suggest that only 2% of the French population supported actively, or passively, the French resistance movement in the 1940's. That is when they were not betraying rival groups to the Milice or the Gestapo. The French Governments are not prone to playing down the "Resistance". Even these days 60 years later too many political reputations depend upon it. It has been argued, and I do not necessarily believe it, that the French Resistance did more to destroy lines of communication than the RAF and USAAF.

The down side is that over reaction can occur- but would you be the Minister of any Government explaining a major loss of life on the grounds we did not see it as a serious threat ?? Any politician could not ignore this.

A point you do not mention is the "Poor little Rich Kid" syndrome - After all the 9/11 hijackers (if they were accurately identified) were not exactly impoverished, out of the refugee camps - But then. if reports are correct, neither is Bin-Laden.

A parallel in the British left might be the Second Viscount Stansgate, The Redgraves, Sir Richard Acland Bart. Tam Dayall of the Binns (an old Scottish title) and others of that kidney. Or in Germany, the Bader- Mienhof collective (SP).

My particular rule of the thumb is simple, the greater the distance from the working class, the further to the 'left', and reality.

Just my thoughts.

Gareth - (A lower middle class parasite)


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 06:07 AM

"anti Americanism/Anti Bush" They aren't the same thing - as you have frequently indicated, Gareth.

In fact it seems to me that anyone who actually loves America will be likely to be very anti-Bush, and vice versa. I am certain that Al Qaida want Bush to win the election in November, and can be expected to do whatever they can to assist in that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:27 AM

It would be in the interests of Al Queda to promote as aggressive an American administration as possible and entice the USA into further unwise military adventures, such as an attack on Iran, Syria, or Saudia Arabia. Al Queda is not rational, and neither is the Bush administration. They suit each other to a T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 27 May 04 - 10:04 AM

Little Hawk- I agree with you 100% that all politicians (as well as doctors, lawyers, business leaders etc) lie.    They couldn't get elected if they told the truth.   Shame on us for allowing this to happen.   We get a "Jesse Ventura" type who actually tells us what he really believes, and we crucify him for not being politically correct.   Shame on all of us.    We settle for the politically correct canned polished speeches because thats what we elect.

My criticism is with those who only see one side of the issue.   Don't rip bush for lying while supporting Clinton and Moore who both lie as well.    Criticize the issue or document your claim with facts.   I am not interested in sound bites.   I write sound bites and I know the difference between reality and spin.

The argument that Bush (and conservatives) want war, and blood, and poison gas, and contaminated water may be the most stupid argument I have ever hread on this board.    Conservatives want the same basic things as liberals- the only difference is how we choose to get there.   You lose your credibility when you hyperbolize like that.

Finally, who does Al Queda want to win?   Lets see.   We have one party that did nothing for 8 years and let him assume power.   There is the other party that has gone to war against him. boy that is a tough choice to figure out who they want to win.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 04 - 10:09 AM

A bizarre sort of rhetorical analysis. Which party did all this nothing? The onl;y fair comparison between these nothings is prior to September 11. During which, neither party did anything. It may be a difficult argument, but Bush proceeded to war in the face of clear evidence he had no casus belli. If he really had an iota of disinclination to go to war, why did he motivate so hard to do so?

I thihnk there is no doubt he wanted war and wanted to be a war President.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 11:10 AM

"the other party that has gone to war against him."

And as a result of the way that has been done Al Qaeda is now much stronger than it was before. And that is not just some prejudiced lefty's opinion, it's what the International Institute of Strategic Studies - "the world's leading authority of political military conflict" - has to say in its annual strategic survey out this week:

Here's how that extreme left-wing paper the Financial Times summarised it:

The al-Qaeda terrorist network is a "viable and effective" organisation that may be able to call on as many as 18,000 potential operatives worldwide, a UK think-tank said yesterday.

In its annual strategic survey, the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) says al-Qaeda's financial network has survived largely intact, and that the war in Iraq has brought new recruits to its ranks.


So there are a few Al Qaeda people dead or locked up, among much larger numbers of non-Al Qaeda people dead or locked up? Some training facilities in Afghanistan have been destroyed? It doesn't add up to much really. As the saying goes "Whatever doesn't killed me makes me stronger."

Bush has in effect been Al Qaeda's best friend. Of course they'll want him elected in November to keep up the good work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 27 May 04 - 11:13 AM

Ake - So what do you suppose we should do about them? Turn the middle east to glass and start over? My suggestion would have been a covert operation to Iraq, recovery of a few scud missiles which I would have promptly chucked into Iran, thus starting another Iran/Iraq war taking care of two birds with one stone. Still it's not likely that the rest of the world would sit easy with either.

As far as anti-america goes, I don't think anyone here is actually anti-american. The problem here is that some are so pro-American patriotic that they can't see where we have gone wrong over the years and earned some of the hatred that is directed against us. If we didn't keep mucking about in other countries politics, if American based companies didn't keep coming in and taking advantage of "cheap labor" and operating with total disregard for any of the labor, environmental, and safety laws, if America used compassionate guidance instead of strong arm threats and tactics. Just because we have the largest and best military doesn't mean we have to employ it as diplomatic policy.

I don't hate Bush, I don't like many of his policies. This is far different than the 8 years of witch hunts that went on before. Everything that Clinton (scum that he is) said and did was scrutinized intensly, investigated to the nth degree (three investigations into Vince Foster's death and some still believe Clinton killed him). Every action that Clinton might have taken was gleefuly described as "Wag the dog" and "cover for his indiscretions". When they finally got him for Monica Lewinsky and lying to Congress (who had no business asking him in the first place) Most of us were extremely tired of the whole process.

Now how can you expect anyone on the left not to reciprocate? Especially when you consider things like the energy policy being written with Enron's assistance (just prior to their collapse for juggling the books), former Enron employees making up a great deal of the current administration, the whole process cloaked in secrecy. A Vice President who claims that he is not influenced by his former position when every decision he advises on for the energy industry directly affects his pension? A President that won't answer whther he ever used illicit substances when this was a big deal in the Clinton years. Claims of service that don't seem to have a paper trail. Etc, Etc. Etc. And we haven't even gotten to the weapons of mass distruction. Yes the warheads, although unloaded, were WMD's but where are the chemicals meant to fill the warheads? That's what most people are thinking of. And most of us don't regard Mustard Gas as a WMD. A major pain in the ass which could cause some deaths and incapacitate most it came in contact with, but not anything along the lines of the different nerve gases. And nothing like Phosgene, Chlorine or Cyanide in intensity. One warhead filled with Sarin? We've misplaced battle tanks and warships in this country. I can see someone coming across the shell and deciding to use it not even knowing what was in it. Given the materials used to make the shells and the high technology used to keep an eye on Iraq since the previous Gulf War I find it hard to comprehend why we haven't found any stockpiles. And if we find Sudan or Syria know has these types of weapons how do we know they came from Iraq? Saddam's nuclear program was apparently pushing up the daisies (quite literally). The jets found burried were from the previous war and wouldn't work well without a really good overhaul.

We were given dire threats of mushroom clouds and massive casualties that we had to prevent and yet no WMDs were used on our troops as we went in even though Saddam had to know at the time that the jig was up.

The biggest problem I see is that where once we had a country with a pretty incompetent military, we are now training their replacements.
Another problem is that our ports, borders and rail lines go pretty much unsecured with all of the troops employed elsewhere.

And the only out from Iraq that I see is to divide the country into thirds in relative proportion to the different sect populations and then get massive UN involvement to prevent a civil war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 04 - 11:49 AM

Akneton,

Both Chriostian extremists and Muslim extremists are a p[roblem. But they are a minority. I expect that an 80% rule applies -- 80% of the turmoil is genrated by 20% of the people.

Organizations like the al Qeda, no matter how populous, tend to wither away when their drivers are gone. They build their numbers out of people who need someone other than themselves to blame for their own lack of spirit, rather than poeple who are genuinely motivated to forward their cult. Without a ringleader, the vassals disperse to other things.

I believe the vast majority of Muslims in the world would be quite happy to live lives of simple production, learning the peaceful side of the Koran and getting along with others. The fanatacism is a special aberration that really has to be pushed to be kept going.

SO the answer to "what to do" is to (a) constrain those who would resort to violence (b) remove the incentive toward violence by seeking to establish genuine communication and a reaosnable degree of justice and (c) help build self-genrating economic communities.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 27 May 04 - 12:24 PM

Larry K says "Finally, who does Al Queda want to win?   Lets see...."

Nope, let's ask 'em. Wait, we don't have to.

Abu Hafs al-Masri (unequivocally linked to Al Quaeda) issued a statement after the Madrid train bombings. The statement, in part, says that Abu Hafs al-Masri supports the re-election campaign of (wait for it...)    President Bush! "We are very keen that Bush does not lose the upcoming elections." Apparently, they are quite happy with "Bush's...idiocy and religious fanaticism" because they "wake up" the Islamic world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 04 - 01:22 PM

Amos ...Im afraid you are not correct in your statement that Islamic fundamentalists are much the same as christian fundamentalists.
The difference is in the two separate cultures.
Islamic society is not at all "Democratic",and I dont necessarily mean that as a bad thing in itself. But if Western so called Democracy spreads through the Middle East,it will eventually mean the end of Islam and the end of power for the Mullahs.
Every one of these Mullahs is a potential Osama,if they are squeezed into a corner,and they seem to be able to convince young Arabs of the glory of Martyrdom,therefore they are different and very much more dangerous than our own relatively harmless loonies.
By the way Iv no particular axe to grind on this question,as I think it would probably be quite a good thing ,inthe long term, if the Western economies collapsed and we reverted to the Stone age.
Maybe we would start treating "Mother Nature" with some respect, second time around.....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 04 - 01:31 PM

Gareth....You and I agree at last,I never thought to see it!!!
Is there room for me on the "Space Ship"


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 27 May 04 - 02:12 PM

McGrath-   It is interesting: the article you quote states that Al Queda ranks have grown to 18,000.   Later in the article it explains how it got that number.    The article says there used to be 20,000 in Al Queda but we have killed 2,000 of them leaving 18,000 in Al Queda.    I don't quite understand if they were 20,000, and now they are 18,000 how can they be growing?    I would love to use that logic with my diet.   I could eat anything and still lose weight.

As far as Bush and terrorism- I really can't believe that someome made the argument that terrorists would prefer Bush in the white house.   Almost every terrorist leader has labeled Bush as the enemy.   The bombings in Spain were revenge for them supporting us in Iraq. (so much for no connection)   In my informal poll (not scientific) I would venture to say that Sadaam and his sons would not be supporting in the upcoming election.    The last quoted word from the sons was "I think this time the Americans are serious.   Bush in not like Clinton"


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 04 - 02:34 PM

Amos ...Im afraid you are not correct in your statement that Islamic

Jeeze, ake...I never said any such thing!! Don't be puttin' words in my mouth -- there's no room in there with both my feet needing space.

Democracy will not mean the end of Islam any more than it meant the end of the Church of Rome, an equally autocratic and authoritarian religous structure. There are scores of conscientious Muslims who live in the United States observing their religion and living under the law at the same time.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 02:34 PM

"Almost every terrorist leader has labeled Bush as the enemy."

And if you're in that bsuiness it helps to have a distinctive personal enemy, preferably one that is going to make bad mistakes and be regarded generally as a buffoon and a laughing stock. Possibly (possibly) not in the USA, but elsewhere, defnitely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 04 - 04:25 PM

Amos ....I wasn't talking of your tame American Moslems,who could be said to have been "corrupted" by the fleshpots of the West.
But the bad ,mad,men of the East who have been taught to despise life and love death,all to keep the Mullahs power intact.
Islam and Western style"democracy are two completely different concepts and are incompatable.
The most longlasting and successful societies on earth have been undemocratic,in the now accepted sense of the word ...Democracy always seems to bring out the worst in people...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 27 May 04 - 05:35 PM

"Democracy always seems to bring out the worst in people..
Ake "

As opposed to Nazism, for instance?

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller (contd.)
Date: 27 May 04 - 05:40 PM

--or "the bad ,mad,men of the East who have been taught to despise life and love death, all to keep the Mullahs power intact"?

What is it you're in favor of? What side are you on?

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 04 - 06:01 PM

Going by my observations, it's money that brings out the worst in people. :-) That, and fundamentalist religions of all types...or extremist ideologies (like doctrinaire Communism, for example or Naziism or modern corporatism). Together, it's a deadly combination.

Larry - Yes, I think Al Queda does relish the thought of Bush, their deadly arch-enemy, being in power just as much as anyone who ardently desires an intractable and worsening World conflict relishes the presence of their favorite hated enemy...it helps to motivate the public, stir outrage, rally the troops, and encourage further recruitment. It stokes the fires of conflict. They are looking for an Armaggedon, not a peaceful solution. They believe that God will secure them the victory. The last thing you want in such a case is a reasonable, or heaven forbid...a likeable opponent! Hell, no! You want a monster,a devil, a satan, another Hitler, a Saddam, a Stalin...or in their case...a Bush. And the USA is exactly the same...the US government always wants a real or else a supposed brutal Monster on the other side of any conflict it engages in. It's good marketing strategy, and is used again and again and again. If Saddam, for instance, had not existed, the USA would have been obliged to invent him (meaning, find someone else to serve as "Bad Guy de Jour"). This is partly because they assume the public are mostly idiots, and must be given a really evil, evil, monstrous guy to fixate on while the government pursues its various strategic objectives around the World. Well, maybe they're right about their public...

Those who live in fear and hatred market by means of fear and hatred. Those who fall for such marketing serve as the foot soldiers, and, if unlucky, die.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Gareth
Date: 27 May 04 - 07:22 PM

GUEST,Clint Keller

To a degree yes the Nazi's did bring out the best in some people. Unfotunately to many it was a posthumous (SP) recognition.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 04 - 07:27 PM

Clint....Hitler,I believe was democratically elected.
But no democratically elected government, seems to govern democratically.
Im far too cynical to be on anybodys side.Im simply pointing out the dangers as I see them.The ordinary people are always the ones who suffer, while the politicians and religious fanatics,twist, turn,bully and cajole in their quest for power over their brothers and sisters.
Little Hawk,I think we must have known one another in a previous existence,as find myself agreeing with everything you say,....Very spooky .

Western "Democracy"is a euphemism for money....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:01 PM

Well, we don't have anything that can really be described as democracy, rule by the people. We have elective oligarchies and dictatorships of various sorts. But rule by anyone is capable of producing some variety of tyranny, you don't avoid that simply by having a different system of goverment, it needs constant vigilance.

WE live in dangerous times, but as always the biggest danger lies with the people who control the most power and have the most capacity to destroy us. That is not the terrorist fringe. On a global scale they are a nuisance. At no time and in no nation have the numbers of people killed by that kind of thing approached the numbers killed in such ways as road accidents, let alone, for example, lung cancer. That includes 911.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:14 PM

Yeah, Gareth. In terms of inspiring a tremendously courageous and effective armed forces and civilian population the Nazis most certainly brought out "the best" in their troops and citizens, performance-wise...but aimed it toward terribly dark purposes. This, needless to say, was not evident to most of those troops at the time or they would not have fought so willingly and so well. As always, the ordinary many in uniform were duped into fighting and dying for the powerful few at the top. I'd say this has been the case in most, if not all military conflicts...although there are cases when those at the top sincerely believe they are defending all that is good and decent. I think Hitler believed that in fact! (But it's no excuse for what he did...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:14 PM

"By the way Iv no particular axe to grind on this question,as I think it would probably be quite a good thing ,inthe long term, if the Western economies collapsed and we reverted to the Stone age."

I think you would be pretty lonely in wishing that...Ake, you gotta be barkin' mad.

While adopting a democractic system of government would not end Islam, it would break the power of the few. That is exactly what happenned to the Church of Rome (i.e. Rennaissence - Reformation)


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:28 PM

Well, perhaps he means "a good thing for the natural environment and some of the other living creatures besides US!" (The great "us", remember? The guys who think they are the owners of the planet, the Masters of Creation, and the greatest thing since Tyrannosaurus Rex?)

The fact is, teribus, there are way too many people on this planet already and there's getting to be too little of everything else. Not a good situation. I have no simple, elegant solution other than a massive worldwide birth control program which most people are apparently unwilling to engage in. I've done my bit. I have sired no children in this life, and it was by design, not by chance.

Besides, I figured I'd have made a really lousy parent anyway... :-) The domestic life is just not my forte. I can imagine doing about 5,000 other things better than raising a family. My opinion is that most people have children partly because they want to, partly because it just happens anyway, partly because it's fun trying, and partly because they think they're SUPPOSED to! I never thought that for a moment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:42 PM

If democracy just means having an election every years where you stick a tick in a box, there is no reason on earth why that must weaken "the power of the few". In fact in itself it could well increase the power and the fervour, if it meant that they could claim that they were acting with the approval of the many.

For a free society there have to be significant restrictions on the power of any government, and there is, in some ways, a tension between that and "democracy".


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:42 PM

Well Teribus maybe I am barkin',but I still think there was a lot to be said for the times before technology, industrial revolutions,engineered mass starvation,global warming, environmental pollution,and most importantly, Nature ruled the roost,giving everyone a good natural immunity to disease.Woof, Woof ,Woof


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:43 PM

If democracy just means having an election every few years where you stick a tick in a box, there is no reason on earth why that must weaken "the power of the few". In fact in itself it could well increase the power and the fervour, if it meant that they could claim that they were acting with the approval of the many.

For a free society there have to be significant restrictions on the power of any government, and there is, in some ways, a tension between that and "democracy".


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:50 PM

Couldn't agree more, McGrath. Anyone who has a gigantic amount of money at their disposal (and guess who does...) can easily hijack a democracy, control all the major political parties, and run the show whatever damn way they like. When the people get mad at one bought party, the other bought party takes over, and very little changes. I call it a velvet dictatorship. It looks like democracy, but it isn't. It's a plutocracy.

Still, I do prefer a velvet dictatorship to an outright armed dictatorship...so things could be worse, that's for sure. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 May 04 - 09:06 PM

Shame on you, Ake. To say the leaders of Islam want to bring down the western democracies is a generalisation too sweeping by far. As with any religion, different adherents interpret it in different ways. But I doubt if there's a case for saying Islam has more fundamentalist nutters than any other religion. You may have noticed that Shia leaders in Iraq were calling on Moqtada al Sadr (viewed by most Shia muslims as a young tearaway) to end his insurgency right from the outset.

The parallel that Amos draws with the Catholic church is a fair one, nad it should be remembered that popes were issuing encyclicals hostile to democracy right into the 20th century.

Little Hawk, re your 9.19pm post: you couldn't have said it better.

McG, to be fair to Kimmitt I think you may have misunderstood his reference to "Ali Babas". Either that, or I did. As I understood it, he was acknowledging that Iraqie were entitled to bear arms, so they could defend themselves against thieves, looters etc - or "Ali Babas", which is the term that Iraqis themselves use.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Peace
Date: 27 May 04 - 09:22 PM

Fionn: Maybe it's time the good guys made the news. I would love to hear from the ones who do not hate everyone who isn't a follower of Islam. I really would. It might begin to defuse the whole thing. Just might.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Bobert
Date: 27 May 04 - 09:35 PM

Okay, brucie, I don't and I consider myself a *good* Christian... Problem is that the military industrialists need boogie men to keep the working class distracted while Boss Hog rapes them. There aren't enough bin Ladens or saddam Hussains to go around so they heve just demonized everyone of Islamic Faith.... Make's their Cristian Right Nazis happy, too...

Life is good if yer part of the neo-con facsit movement in Amerika these days...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:20 AM

Who, exactly was better as a Nazi than he would have been as a Republican or Democrat?

Rommel was a good soldier, and a brave man, and loyal and all those manly virtues, but he was working toward making the world safe for genocide. And it wasn't Nazism (how do you spell that, anyway?) that brought out those qualities

And it wasn't democracy that brought out the worst in Hitler. It "brought out Hitler," in the sense of putting him in office, but it's not democracy that made him the way he was.

And it wasn't democracy that made Ashcroft the nut that he is. He wouldn't have been a nice man under Castro or the Mullahs.

What government is it that does bring out the best in people, boys?

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 28 May 04 - 02:05 AM

Well, now that I've calmed down a little.

I was 4-5 years too young to get into WWII but I remember it, and it strikes a nerve if anyone says a good word about Nazis or Fascists. I cannot believe that they did anything "best." What they did caused a lot of misery and destroyed a good deal of the world, including their own country. There are better ways of making the trains run on time.

And I do not believe that what is wrong with the US today is too much Democracy.

And a hunting and gathering culture is excellent ecologically, but it is not a system of government. There are many kinds of hunting and gathering societies.

I am in favor of an Enlightened Anarchy, but I don't think we can get there from here. Not soon, anyway.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Gareth
Date: 28 May 04 - 05:34 AM

Sorry LH - I thnk you missed my point.

Nazism (SP) did bring out the best in some people Not confined to Germany.

Perhaps I could have put it clearer, but the reaction against brought out many deeds and attitudes in resistance.

Not that this justifies that repugnant creed.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 04 - 05:48 AM

And that's true - but inevitably it also brought out the worst as well. All too often we take on the qualties of those we fight against.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: akenaton
Date: 28 May 04 - 06:34 AM

Im a bit surprised by the tone of some replies to my query "What do we do about I. F.
Some Mudcats seem to think I am racist or bigoted against Moslems.
This is certainly not true,but I stillfeel that I F is the greatest danger the West has faced,because it take a small number of people who dont care for their own lives or safety,and who have no regard for the suffering of others. In other words anything is permissible if its for the "glory of god"
Its all about power.
The West gets its power from enslaving people by the use of money
The Fundamentalists get their power by promising "pie in the sky"
The manipulators are all scum,be they Iranian Mullahs or American Republicans.
If this is an example of the modern world,give me the Stone age any day .....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 04 - 06:56 AM

From previous posts I am sure you are not bigoted against Muslim, ake - but when you talked about "the leaders of Islam" as "determined to wipe it out (Western culture) through increasing terrorist activity" you were using the language that bigots use, and saying something that is simply not true.

Those who are proponents of terrorism are not "the leaders of Islam", insofar as that there are such people - Islam is as fragmented and diverse as Christianity. They aren't even the leaders of fundamentalist Islam, and that is fragmented too, and means all kinds of things, some very nasty and others a lot less so.

It's a bit like equating anarchists with bomb-throwers, and ignoring the reality that most people who'd use that term to describe themselves are committed to non-violence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 28 May 04 - 12:55 PM

"All of the terrorist leaders consider Bush their enemy"

Isn't it funny that alot of the world leaders now consider him the same?


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:15 PM

Oh, I see, Gareth...

Well, to answer Clint in as simple a way as possible:

What brings out the best in people is inspired leadership (whether it be by their parents, their teachers, their military commanders, their political leaders or their religious leaders). Inspired leadership can accomplish virtual miracles.

When you deeply admire a parent, a teacher, an officer, a president...when you trust them and feel you can rely on them in any situation...when you love them deeply...THAT brings out the best in people.

And what is "the best"? It equates to courage, love, compassion, idealism, confidence, good humour, determination, loyalty, mercy, fairness, tolerance, and other such virtues. I remember a couple of really good teachers in my years at school who brought forth those virtues in their students, and those teachers were worth their weight in gold, I can tell you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 28 May 04 - 02:02 PM

"When you deeply admire a parent, a teacher, an officer, a president...when you trust them and feel you can rely on them in any situation...when you love them deeply...THAT brings out the best in people."

A lot of Germans felt that way about Hitler. And Jim Jones. And the Heaven's Gate honchos under their many names...

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 28 May 04 - 02:10 PM

put in "people" instead of "Germans," please. Vocabulary malfunction.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 28 May 04 - 02:20 PM

IIRC the Heaven's Gate leader was named Appleby, and his wife was likewise.

Did they have othe rnames? Many?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 04 - 02:38 PM

That's right, Clint, and it raises some interesting questions, doesn't it?

But the important question for you is...who do YOU feel that way about???? There will always be others who think differently.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 04 - 02:52 PM

There were a lot of people who felt that way about George Washington. If the revolutionaries had lost, those people would not have been seen in such a positive light in the history books that followed.

I, by the way, think those people were entirely justified in their positive view of George Washington. He was a very good leader, in my opinion. But British loyalists might well have hated and detested him...for reasons which made perfect sense to them.

A bad leader by definition is one who either (1) is not very good at leading (2) or who leads the people far astray, despite being good at leading. Hitler qualifies bigtime for number 2. George Washington doesn't qualify for either.

To recognize that perfectly normal and decent people can mistakenly back a leader who is leading them astray, Clint, is to learn compassion. Millions and millions of perfectly normal Germans mistakenly backed Hitler, and if he had won the war their descendants would still be singing his praises, there would be statues of him everywhere, and virtually no one would even believe there had been any genocide against anyone by the Germans. It would be forgotten. Swept under the carpet. Classified information.   Depend on it. That's the power of propaganda and media over people's view of reality.

The reason you hate the Nazis is because they lost, and you now have the benefit of hindsight over the matter. If they had won, you would not have the benefit of hindsight. You...or whoever was living in your place now would probably be under the totally false impression that they had "saved the World for democracy" or some such sort of nonsense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 28 May 04 - 03:14 PM

I thought Heaven's Gate leader was Marshall Hepplewhite (sp?)???


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 28 May 04 - 03:29 PM

LH

Well. I disliked the Nazis before they lost. I don't like the way the "we" treated the Indians, or the Filipinos although "we" won.

Leadership, courage, loyalty, intelligence, even self-sacrifice are strengths, not virtues; possession of those qualities makes a good man better and a bad man worse - up to the point where the good man is too successful and becomes corrupted by power.

We depend too much on leaders. Perhaps we need to think more in terms of guides. Better yet on becoming more enlightened ourselves

Amos-
Maybe I'm confusing the Heaven's Gate leaders with someone else; there were some nuts that went by "He" and "She" and other clever combinations. "Bo" and "Peep"? I'll see if I can look it up.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 28 May 04 - 03:46 PM

I just googled "bo and peep:"

http://www.factnet.org/hgsinger.htm?FACTNet    says

At first they called themselves Guinea and Pig -- she was Guinea, and he was Pig -- because that was what they were: guinea pigs for the higher power in the space ship. They didn't want their real names used because they were in the process of getting rid of their identity. Later they called themselves Bo and Peep, apparently because they considered themselves to be shepherds. Their followers became known as Bo Peepers.

This woman had written a diary about her experiences while she was in the cult. My informant, as I call her, told me that she had found out the names of the real names of the leaders of this cult were Marshall Herb Applewhite, and the woman's name was Binder Truce Dell Nettles.

And from another site:

Do and Ti (aka Bo and Peep)

Birth/Death:

Do (1931-1997) was born Marshall Herff Applewhite in Spur, Texas;Ti (1927- 1985) was born Bonnie Lu Nettles, birthplace unknown.

I didn't go any farther... clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Amos
Date: 28 May 04 - 05:01 PM

Thanks, Clint!! My memory is much improved by your research!!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 04 - 08:34 PM

As far as I'm concerned, virtues ARE strengths...and many strengths are also virtues (but not all of them). One can be very strong and not the least bit virtuous. Or one can be a mixture, which is the case with most people.

I suspect that I would also have disliked the Nazis before they lost...most probably. (I usually dislike aggressive, militaristic forces in society, and I tend to side with the underdog if with anyone.) I wasn't around before they lost, though. My father was, and he fought against them.

Words are confusing. They don't express enough by themselves. You also need to know the context, the emotional communication, the origins of the speaker, and so on. Half (or more) of these arguments we get into on the Net are just pointless, because we are really arguing about nothing...just misinterpreting other people's words. We end up arguing not to uncover any Truth, but merely to win. I find that kind of discouraging. It makes me wonder why I even bother to communicate with people this way.

I could probably be doing something far more productive, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 04 - 08:45 PM

Oh, here are a couple more things that CAN bring out the best in people...

Love

Adversity

You can also probably come up with examples when those things bring the worst out in people if you want...but that doesn't invalidate the original statement...


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 29 May 04 - 12:20 AM

Well, my point was that many people confuse strengths with virtues.

For instance, I used to think that an intelligent man would necessarily be a good man, because he could see that honesty is the best policy, and his self-interest would be enlightened self-interest. It finally came to me that, reasonable as I thought that opinion was, in practice there's lots of intelligent scoundrels.

"Decisiveness" is considered a virtue lately, but as Mr. Vonnegut said recently, psychopaths are very good at decisiveness. And courage.

I thiink I should have said something like "goodness" instead of "virtue." I believe "virtue" originally was connected more to strength & power than decency, & still is in some uses.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 May 04 - 01:05 PM

In Latin the word virtus means strength - but Romans were realistic enough to know that this wasn't necessarily a good thing. The distinction Clint makes is a useful one.

Without it you get into the absurd situation where it is suggested that a suicide bomber must be a coward, because being courageous is obviously a good thing, and therefore can't apply to anyone engaged in something like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lies, Lies, Lies
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 08:44 AM

Lawyers told the British government that US and British bombing of Iraq in the months before the war was illegal under international law....

Iraq prewar attack was illegal


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