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BS: Iraqi women and the Koran

dianavan 07 Jun 04 - 09:45 PM
Wolfgang 07 Jun 04 - 06:27 AM
dianavan 05 Jun 04 - 03:33 AM
LadyJean 05 Jun 04 - 01:23 AM
dianavan 05 Jun 04 - 12:59 AM
Little Hawk 04 Jun 04 - 02:24 PM
DougR 04 Jun 04 - 01:43 PM
akenaton 04 Jun 04 - 12:56 PM
Wolfgang 04 Jun 04 - 08:51 AM
Once Famous 03 Jun 04 - 04:10 PM
akenaton 03 Jun 04 - 03:49 PM
akenaton 03 Jun 04 - 03:13 PM
Once Famous 03 Jun 04 - 12:33 PM
akenaton 03 Jun 04 - 12:23 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Jun 04 - 11:03 AM
Teribus 03 Jun 04 - 09:06 AM
akenaton 03 Jun 04 - 08:37 AM
Teribus 03 Jun 04 - 05:21 AM
dianavan 03 Jun 04 - 01:05 AM
dianavan 01 Jun 04 - 01:47 AM
LadyJean 01 Jun 04 - 01:44 AM
Little Hawk 01 Jun 04 - 01:40 AM
DougR 01 Jun 04 - 01:14 AM
Little Hawk 31 May 04 - 11:09 PM
Ebbie 31 May 04 - 10:41 PM
Once Famous 31 May 04 - 10:14 PM
Little Hawk 31 May 04 - 10:13 PM
Peace 31 May 04 - 10:06 PM
Once Famous 31 May 04 - 08:51 PM
Don Firth 31 May 04 - 06:38 PM
Little Hawk 31 May 04 - 06:30 PM
Amos 31 May 04 - 06:29 PM
Peace 31 May 04 - 06:25 PM
GUEST,Sam Hall 31 May 04 - 06:23 PM
Little Hawk 31 May 04 - 05:55 PM
Peace 31 May 04 - 05:51 PM
Little Hawk 31 May 04 - 05:39 PM
Once Famous 31 May 04 - 05:26 PM
Little Hawk 31 May 04 - 04:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 May 04 - 04:06 PM
John MacKenzie 31 May 04 - 03:48 PM
Don Firth 31 May 04 - 02:06 PM
Once Famous 30 May 04 - 06:47 PM
Peace 30 May 04 - 01:36 PM
freda underhill 30 May 04 - 01:26 PM
dianavan 30 May 04 - 01:02 PM
Don Firth 30 May 04 - 12:51 PM
Once Famous 30 May 04 - 12:29 PM
dianavan 30 May 04 - 11:27 AM
freda underhill 30 May 04 - 06:55 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 09:45 PM

Thanks Wolfgang - Makes me wonder alot about what democracy will look like in Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 06:27 AM

Switserland/Liechtenstein:

- Women can now vote in all cantons.
- The government in Switserland is secular (same big partie' coalition sharing government, ministers and presidency since roughly the 1930s)
- Women have equal access to education

Switserland/Liechtenstein was an interesting sub-problem of direct democracy (and made me mostly an enemy of direct democracy). The first motions to give women the right to vote came as early as in most other European countries. But the last word in a direct democracy on these matters lies with those allowed to vote at that time, that is/was the men. That was a constitutional deadlock in these two coutries because no decision of the parliament could overrule the voters themselves.

If you think that sounds silly, consider that in all countries of the world some groups are not allowed to vote, in Germany for instance minors, mentally unfit and convicted criminals. So, if in a direct democracy, the rules who should be allowed to vote are to be changed (for example to allow voting from 18 years on instead of from 21), in the vote deciding a new group should be allowed to vote those profiting from this vote are not allowed to vote yet.

In Liechtenstein, for instance, they had a referendum for women voting rights about every four years since early in the 20th century. The count, the churches, the trade unions, all relevant political parties and everybody else of importance literally begged the voting body (of men) to allow women to vote. Time after time, the men declined until very recently.

Those Swiss cantons having the most direct rule of voting (all those allowed to vote coming once a year to one very big place and giving a show of hands to all relevant matters) were the last to allow women vote (and that only after heavy financial pressures from the central government).

Direct democrcy can be sometimes really conservative in the sense of resistance to necessary change.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 03:33 AM

Is the government of Switzerland secular?

Are the women given equal access to education?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: LadyJean
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 01:23 AM

Women couldn't vote in Switzerland until very recently. They still can't in one canton. But people call Switzerland a democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 12:59 AM

DougR - Do you think democracy can exist in a non-secular government where women are not given the opportunity to vote? Can democracy exist in a country where women are not given equal access to education? Just what kind of democracy does the U.S. want to bring to Iraq? I don't think the U.S. gives a shit about democracy.

I wonder if the first 'free and open' election in Iraq will feature 'dangling chads'?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 02:24 PM

Wars are not fought to rescue women from oppressive social conditions. Wars are fought for GAIN...of territory, strategic resources, financial considerations, and the exercise of military-industrial power. If you wish to solve all the terrible problems in the World by launching wars, Doug, there are many more places left yet to attack...including your own home town (or mine) with its drug addicts, unwed mothers, housebreakers, and wife beaters. Every place I've ever heard of has some terrible problems. Wars don't solve them, they add to them...tremendously. What does solve problems is peace, dialogue, education, economic improvement for the general public, and good social programs. If you believe in imposing what you think is "good" at the point of a gun then you would agree with Mao Tse-Tung as to how social change might best be achieved in the World.

What I'm saying is simply this...you are sniping at Dianavan in a way that is irrelevant to the subject of the discussion. The USA did not attack Afghanistan in order to free its women...but the US administration did use the condition of Afghan women as a convenient propaganda device to engender support for its military actions...and that is what you are doing too...only you really mean it, I imagine. They certainly didn't. They just used it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: DougR
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 01:43 PM

Dianavan: you posted a statement, "If the U. S. is successful in establishing democracy in Iraq, what will they do about religion? About women's rights?" I'm paraphrasing but I think that's very close.

If the U. S. is successful in establishing democracy in Iraq it will be up to the Irquis to determine the answers to both those questions. The U. S. will not have a policy role in Iraq after June 30, 2004.

Regarding your rather snide remark about my not reading the full post, I say horse pucky! YOU are the one who introduced the topic of how terrible it would be for women were the Taliban to become the government in Iraq, not I. You obviously think it's terrible, but not terrible enough to use force to prevent it.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 12:56 PM

Wolfgang..I have never heard anyone support Islamic Fundamentalism on these threads.
There does however, have to be an alternative to the meat grinding machine of capitalism to give women a fulfilled life. there should also be an alternative for men, but that seems a long way off.
Women should be able to bear and nurture a child,if they so wish, without undue financial considerations...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 08:51 AM

Since this thread has (in some posts) turned to the role of women in Islamic countries in general, I post here a letter from an Iranian women she wrote when Michel Foucault in October 1978 greeted the Mullahs' taking power in Iran as a 'possibilty of a political spirituality'.

Atoussa H.'s Letter to Le Nouvel Observateur, 6.Nov.1978

Living in Paris, I am deeply upset by the comments used often by the French Left to address the arrival of an 'Islamic government' replacing the Shah's despotic regime. Michel Foucault, for example, seems to be moved by the 'Islamic spirituality' (no. 727, October 16) which is supposed to replace the brutal dictatorship, according to him, for the better. After 25 years of silence and oppression, should the Iranian people only have the choice between the Savak (the Shah's secret police, W. H.) and religious fanaticism? To have an idea of what Qur'an's spirituality, literally applied by Khomeini's moral order, signifies, it is worthwhile to re-read some of the original text. [...] From 'Surat 2': 'Your wives are like a field for you, Come to your fields as often as you want.' To clarify: Man is the sovereign, woman the slave, he can use her according to his whims, and she has nothing to say. Originated in the Prophet's jealous guarding of his wife Aisha, women must wear the veil. This does not just concern spiritual ideas, but a choice of society. These days unveiled women are often insulted and the young Muslims don't hide that in the regime they want, women can do nothing but to shut up. He has written also that the minorities have a right to liberty under the condition that they do not harm the majority. When do minorities begin to harm?

Spirituality? Return to popular sources? Saudi Arabia claims itself as the source of Islam. And the hands of thieves and the heads of lovers fall [...] One could say that the Western left is weary enough of humanism to find Islam desirable... For others. Many Iranians such as myself are distressed at the idea of an 'Islamic government.' They know what it means. Everywhere in Iran, Islam has always served the feudal and pseudo-revolutionary oppression. Often too, as in Tunisia, Pakistan and Indonesia, Islam - alas - is the only means of expression available to the oppressed people. The progressive Left in the West must realize what kind of barrier the Islamic religion can become in the societies eager for change, and not allow themselves to be seduced by a remedy that is perhaps worse than the illness.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 04:10 PM

You have a penis in your ear on that one, Ake.

You sure don't have a fucking clue.

Undies in a bunch, huh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 03:49 PM

Sorry to hog the thread,but Martin Gibson seems to be diverting people away from a serious topic.
In reference to Martins' posts on the subject of women,it says a lot about him,that he seems to see fucking as a term of abuse...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 03:13 PM

Maybe a chance here to discuss the status of women in "primitive" or tribal societies,as opposed to their place in capitalist "democracies"
This discussion could have a bearing on our understanding of the Islamic .....Western democracy conflict....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 12:33 PM

Hi ebbie

close, but not quite right.

I actually have two sons, not one.

I love country, but not so much western except Bob Wills and the texas Playboys. No one calls it country and western anymore. that's out dated. I also love bluegrass.

I did not stop liking music and have no idea where you get that idea. I actively play banjo in a bluegrass band and play guitar and bass and sing tenor harmonies in many different jams in the area.

I can always control talking dirty. When I want to, or when I don't fucking want to. see?

As far as those who find my spelling of "Iraqi" entertaining, and to those who have a problem with my language, to please have a fucking Iraqui nice day.

dianavan, isn't it time for a shave?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 12:23 PM

McGrath as usual makes, the point very well.
Teribus, although there is some truth in what you say ,I would remind you, that you, are looking back from the perspective of the present day, through the mists of conditioning that we have been fed over the last few hundred years.
That conditioning contains the need for a woman to "fulfill her self" through becoming a cog in the capitalist treadmill...What a con!!!
Anyway as you appear to be a "leader",as opposed to an Oik like me ,
I suggest you get your big club out and get some practise in before Osamas's boys arrive.
Start with Doug and Martin,and keep everybody happy....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 11:03 AM

There have been any number of "Stone Age" cultures over the past half-million years or so, and they haven't all been the kind of Hollywood sexist fantasy version of the Flintstones that Teribus described there.

Most of the time human beings have lived on this planet, by a long long way, we were living in "Stone Age" cultures. In some ways our present way of doing things may be better, but it'd be very arrogant to assume that in all ways that is true. That includes how we organise societal relationships between men and women.

Some of the nastiest societies we are aware in the whole of history have been versions of our modern technological culture. And that includes the way they have organised societal relationships between men and women.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 09:06 AM

"Of course I would not like to be sent back to Stone Age,but I see that time as the golden age of humanity,when we were really free.
Free to enjoy the natural gifts of life,without all the filth of politics, religion or any other form of manipulation"

Well then Ake, that is contrary to what you said you desired in another of your posts (can't off hand remember which thread).

But for the remainder, you seem to look back at that time from a certain perspective. What you say about that age is of course perfectly correct - Provided you were the male of the tribe who was big enough, strong enough, and clever enough, with the ability to weald his club faster, more accurately and more often than anyone else - in other words the Boss/Clan Chief/Pack Leader call it what you will - TRUE????

If on the other hand, you were just one of the other Oiks, you would experience precious little humanity or freedom. The natural gifts of life and nature that would be thrown your way would be those encountered during your allotted chores. Aplenty you would experience the sharp end of all the filth of politics and religion having been manipulated from cradle to the grave. I believe that being one of the Oiks in those times meant doing exactly as the "Leader" told you to do, and if some god, or other, required a sacrifice and you had no captives from some other family - Ake, ol' buddy, as one of the Oiks, your name would be in the hat - Not the "Leaders".


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 08:37 AM

Teribus...Im surprised by that post ,from one whom I supposed to be an old fashioned "one nation " conservative,with decent values.
Most intelligent women I have spoken to,feel the pendulum has swung too far,and the very important job of nurturing children is now given no status. In fact it is rapidly becoming an economic necessity,for women either to forgoe having a family, or farming them off to strangers, to enable them to continue working.
Capitalism is like a spiders web , with money the glue that traps us all,and makes us do things which conflict with the true gifts available to us,and the happiness we can all enjoy from these gifts.
Of course I would not like to be sent back to Stone Age,but I see that time as the golden age of humanity,when we were really free.
Free to enjoy the natural gifts of life,without all the filth of politics, religion or any other form of manipulation....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 05:21 AM

akenaton - 29 May 04 - 07:56 PM

"Regarding womens rights here in the West. I feel women have lost more than they have gained under our kind of "freedom"

So is dismissed the greatest accomplishment of the twentieth century - the emancipation and empowerment of women. The flooding into the political, social and economic sectors of life of all that previously untapped energy, talent and promise.

Mind you, from someone who yearns to be cast back to Stone Age - What else would you expect.

Little Hawk,
Far from driving me nuts, I find it highly amusing that someone who posts so much about a place cannot even be bothered to learn the correct spelling of the place they are talking about.

Oh, by the way, your afirmed belief that the US established the Taliban - Simply NOT TRUE. Assisted them yes, established them NO there is a difference, quite a marked one at that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 01:05 AM

I want to keep this thread alive because I want to know what DougR has to say.

Do you advocate the use of arms against men in North America that do not believe women should be liberated?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Jun 04 - 01:47 AM

DougR - I said, "Of course I fear the control of the Taliban but I'm not sure how or if the American idea of democracy in Iraq will or will not effect the customs."

I also said, "... and yes, I fear the Taliban and other radical fundamentalists."

...and, "Yes, I know that democracy must come from the people and cannot be imposed. Thats why it is so shortsighted of the U.S. govt. to think they can liberate Iraq. What happens to the culture? What will it mean for women? I'm sure the religious leaders will still be in place."

...and, "So regardless of who is in power in Iraq, the muslim faith will still be guided by the local religious leader. And irrespective of what the Koran says, women's rights will be dictated by the religious leaders."

also - "As to the veil - there are plenty of middle-eastern countries where women are not veiled. It depends a great deal on the religious leaders of the country and the political will to provide education to all."

So - It doesn't matter if the U.S. or any other country uses armed force to prevent it. It will only result in the loss of innocent lives. It is absolutely pointless to bring so-called to democracy to Iraq with armed force. Cultures change very slowly and only when the people are given equal access to education.

Next time, try reading the thread instead of jumping in just to put someone down. Your summary of my statements, suck.

Do you think we should you use armed force to liberate women? If so, perhaps we should start at home.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: LadyJean
Date: 01 Jun 04 - 01:44 AM

A friend of mine, a devout Episcopalian, went to Egypt. After a couple of days, she got tired of brushing sand out of her hair, and bought a white cotton veil, which she wore on her head for the rest of the trip. It was also useful for covering her face during sandstorms.
The veil was a practical garment, that gained religious significance.
When I see Islamic women in the U.S. with their heads covered in polyester, I find myself yearning to scream, ARE YOU CRAZY! THAT'S SYNTHETIC! YOU MUST FEEL LIKE YOU STUCK YOUR HEAD IN A BROILER! There are no sandstorms in Pittsburgh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jun 04 - 01:40 AM

Well, the USA both established the Taliban in Afghanistan (in place of the Russians and their surrogates) and later went to war against the Taliban...when they proved uncooperative regarding an oil route from the Caspian. So what did it all have to do with the rights of Afghani women? Nada. It had to do with strategic interests. Therefore, I think Dianavan's concern over the women's plight is understandable, but it doesn't reflect much on American military policy one way or another. The USA does not invade countries in order to free persecuted women, Doug. :-)

So, what was your point again?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: DougR
Date: 01 Jun 04 - 01:14 AM

Thank you, Dianavan, for answering my question. So you are "terribly" concerned that the Taliban might impose terrible restrictions on women in Iraq, were they to become the government, but you wouldn't support armed force to prevent it.

Okey dokie.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 May 04 - 11:09 PM

It's Chicago. The place has a brutalizing effect on people. That's my theory, anyway.

Iraqui, Iraqui, Iraqui. I love it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 May 04 - 10:41 PM

Here's what I know about Martin Gibson:

* He loves both Martins and Gibsons.
* He was born about 1950.
* He has at least one child.
* He loves his wife and speaks respectfully of her.
* He used to be interested in music, especially country and western.
* His main musical influences were Waylon Jennings and Buck Owens.
* He always was a bit foul mouthed but he used to be able to control it.

What went wrong? Dunno.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 May 04 - 10:14 PM

Brucie

Do you think any Iraqui women would like a Polish Sausage or kubassa, after checking with the Koran of course if it was permissible?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 May 04 - 10:13 PM

You too, Bruce? Man, that is scary. Spooky even!

Martin, I note that you are spelling "Iraqui" the same way I used to until I got pestered about it so much by teribus that I changed the spelling to "Iraqi" to make him stop pestering me about it.

I suggest you go to every political thread possible and keep repeating the word "Iraqui" over and over and over at every available opportunity. Start threads with "Iraqui" in the title.    Teribus won't bother you, because he probably thinks you are beyond reasoning with, but it'll probably drive him right nuts anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Peace
Date: 31 May 04 - 10:06 PM

Indeed there is. It has a gang of spellings--kubassa (or something like that), and it is goood. I like it with Keen's hot mustard and fried (grilled) onions. Yep. We got liftoff. How are ya, Martin? Good here. My problem at the moment is that I'm gettin' better lookin' everyday and there isn't one damn thing I can do about it. For your info. Later.

Bruce M


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 May 04 - 08:51 PM

That's your head Don. Bet it makes a popping sound when you get it out of there.

Hey, Brucie, speaking of Iraqui women and the Koran, is there also a version of a Kosher Polish Sausage up there? Here we have what's called the Maxwell Street Polish which is the next step beyond a hot dog. It's got plenty of girth (yes girls), is grilled and covered with bright yellow American style mustard and covered with grilled onions.

Oh, they are so delightful.

Now, back to Iraqui women and the Koran.........................brought to you by Don Firth's tirade against people who don't think like him and don't want to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 May 04 - 06:38 PM

Looking for tapeworms?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 May 04 - 06:30 PM

What in GOD's NAME are those two men in that picture doing????


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Amos
Date: 31 May 04 - 06:29 PM

So it is, but ya gotta wonder what he is doing with his hands...


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Peace
Date: 31 May 04 - 06:25 PM

GUEST, Sam Hall: That is a picture of George W Bush. How DARE you show that in public!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: GUEST,Sam Hall
Date: 31 May 04 - 06:23 PM

Martin Gibson has a problem. Click here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 May 04 - 05:55 PM

I've never had either a Chicago hotdog OR a Montreal steamie. Weep for me!


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Peace
Date: 31 May 04 - 05:51 PM

Martin and LH: Let's don't start with the hotdogs again. I get the feeling I was second in that argument despite being right about Montreal steamies. It grieves me to this day, months later, that the self-deluded actually THINK Chicago hotdogs can compare. (I don't friggin' wanna hear it!)

Love, peace and steamies.

Bruce M


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 May 04 - 05:39 PM

Yeah, I really look back fondly to back when you and Chongo Chimp were trying to one-up each other over who represented Chicago best.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 May 04 - 05:26 PM

Little Hawk, forget it. I know you are having a good time with this.

As for Don Firth, his life is so seriosuly involved with this that he has to stick out his worn out chest and constantly try to taunt me.

It doesn't work, Don you old douche bag, you. You are so far involved with me you can't sleep nights, let alone stay on topic. I laugh at how much time he spends trying to whip me.

Don, you are a loser. You havent' accomplished much in this thread either.

Giok, will it cease now, or will the old fool keep trying to lecture me. Am I to radical for the radicals?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 May 04 - 04:07 PM

Okay, Martin, that's it. You have gone too far. I demand satisfaction. I say we both log in RIGHT NOW to the dueling website at Bang!you'redead.com and have this out, mouse to mouse, and may the slower hand fall! Where do you get the fucking gall to assert that the Internet is NOT the ultimate reality????????????!@@@@$@! The rest of life is just a pale imitation of what happens on your computer screen and you know it. You're just trying to fuck with people's minds here, and I intend to put a stop to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 04 - 04:06 PM

So "Martin Gibson is not a real person"? That fits in with my impression. So am I right in suspecting that, behind the front we've been presented with, there is actually someone with an anti- Jewish purpose in mind? After all, there are precedents for this kind of thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 May 04 - 03:48 PM

This is getting silly, and should cease forthwith!
JGM


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 May 04 - 02:06 PM

So, whatever your real name is, Martin Gibson is not a real person, is that it?

It's my contention that the vast majority of people are fine, decent folks with good instincts, and are generally kind and benevolent. For the most part, what you see is pretty much what they are. I don't believe that most people actually want to be offensive to others, and if they find they have inadvertently offended someone or been rude to them, they are often overwhelmed with a sense of shame and remorse, and go to great lengths to try to make amends.

But of course, one can never be sure. There are those whose character (or lack thereof) is such that the only thing that keeps them from being outright barbarians and obvious sociopaths is social pressure and fear of reprisals. They know that if they follow their more savage inclinations, they will be shunned by other members of the community, including their own families, and find themselves outcasts.   So it's fear of the consequences that keeps them from revealing their true character.

However, in a situation where such a person can remain anonymous, often that's where their true nature comes out. Without fear of repercussions and reprisals, they throw off the social constraints they find so confining and act in a manner that reveals how coarse, crude, and brute-like they really are. This kind of person is almost invariably a bully, and he does his bullying only when he thinks he can get away with it. He has a cruel streak, but fundamentally, he's a coward.

Some of us post under our own names (as I do), willing to accept full responsibility for what we post. Others use a consistent "handle," but often don't go to any great pains to hide their true names, and they, too, are willing to own what they post. There are those who post as "GUEST." These folks, more often than not, are either newcomers or only occasional visitors and are perfectly benevolent. There are others, however, including a few who do use a consistent handle but reveal very little of themselves, who are anything but benevolent. Trolls and disruptors. Remaining anonymous, they feel safe in letting their true nature ooze forth.

All of which is by way of preamble. Martin Gibson, if the family and friends you speak of knew the real nature of your character, the side of yourself that you have revealed here, you life would undoubtedly not be anywhere near as pleasant as you claim it is. And if the temple where you observe the Sabbath knew what kind of a pig you truly are, they would first purify the place, and then bar you from ever entering again.

Don Firth

P.S:   I wear my age with pride. I've accomplished things in my life and I continue to do so. What are you doing with yours?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 May 04 - 06:47 PM

Brucie, I don't recall calling Freda a racist. Not in those terms. Somewhat sad though to me, but I respect the fact that you know her better.

Actually, dianavan, that is only a small percentage of the reasons, but far from all of them. I never swallow any medicine you give me. As far as foul talking, what the fuck? Deal with it. Or don't. Foul language is only a perception.

As far as Don firth getting on my case, who made you my monitor? Personally, I don't really care who does and doesn't here accept my opinions. I don't see this as a contest. I don't care who is keeping score. 4 out of 5 people in a room can have the same opinion and that doesn't make it right. Maturity? You're right. You are way to old of a man for me. Your level of maturity (in your own mind) is what I will never take seriously. It's called being a blowhard.

Lastly, as I have said before, there is reality and there is fiction. Martin Gibson is fiction. You argue with a character. Maybe to some degree, an alter ego, but when I shut down my computer or go visit somne other site he really does dematerialize. I come to the Internet to get information from known or dependable web sites, get entertainment from others (like here), or places like ebay to practice capitalism for some of my hobbies. I know the arguement is that there are real people here, but there are also people who are not real here.

I just won't fall in to the trap of the Internet having more reality than life itself. Some of you are living a very two dimensonal life.

Guess what. I'm not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Peace
Date: 30 May 04 - 01:36 PM

freda is anything but a sad old woman. She is talented, smart and egalitarian--I will posit and argue that she is in the top 2% of the thinkers who post to the 'cat. Wish I had half her brains. You are way far wrong on that, Martin. Way far. In no way is she racist, and I know that for fact. It's not an assumption on my part.

Bruce Murdoch


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 May 04 - 01:26 PM

No, it was from the article, diana, I don't have son called jacob!


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan
Date: 30 May 04 - 01:02 PM

Ah c'mom Martin - You dislike me because I'm not a Zionist, I don't like shaving my legs and I refused to have my son circumcised.

I actually think your ideas make for interesting discussion its your filthy language I object to. When you resort to personal attacks on people, they have only two choices: 1) ignore 2) give you a taste of your own medicine

Here's some more rope, Martin. Go hang yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 May 04 - 12:51 PM

No, Marty. As before, I didn't get on your case until you got abusive, insulting, and foul-mouthed when others didn't accept your opinions. Adult? Obviously not. And as far as diapers are concerned, intellectually and emotionally you are still very much in the diaper stage. One tantrum after another. I just poke you a little bit, and you do a marvelous job of displaying your level of maturity.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 May 04 - 12:29 PM

As long as dianavan and Don Firth keep coming back for more, so be it.

Yes, dianavan, you are too lazy to do the research most all of the time. I do not kiss the butt of the status quo, but have enjoyed many friends, my job, and life in America for being able to work within the system, instead of trying to be an outcast in it. That's not being a coward. I call it being extremely happy and comfortable in life while you are looking for a way to disagree with it. One day you will realize that your attitude accomplished nothing and really had very little impact on anything, especially your own happiness. You in my book are a complete whining loser.

Giok, you will find that many of my posts are responses to complete bullshit daydreams of certain extreme far left liberal posters who have no handle on what life in the real world is like. True, shock value can get them to take notice. It works. Again, it's mostly all entertainment for me while I wait for something like the dryer to finish or my wife to get ready to go out for dinner.

As for keeping it clean, good practice. However, much easier for the circumcised.

Freda, your article would play well in the National Enquirer. Or in a Nazi hate flyer. It is so no the norm. It's really lame and far from the world's norm. It's just another sad, morbid story that you obviosuly like to cling to as a sad, old woman.

Lastly, Don Firth, I have not at all been shouting. I quitely make my comments that hit so close to home for you. Take a look and again you will see that as usual in this thread you attacked me personally first. All because my opinions differ from you and you don't like the way that I present them. Well fuck yourself. Calling me a punk is lame. I'm an adult enjoying the world for what it is, working for a large corporation, putting a son through college, raising a family, taking care of my aged mother, playing lots of music with fine people, singing in my temple's choir, and generally having a good old time. Have you changed that diaper of yours yet?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan
Date: 30 May 04 - 11:27 AM

freda - Thanks for the post. I was too lazy to do the research. I am confused about something you wrote. Was Jacob your son or was this a quote from an article?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 May 04 - 06:55 AM

good point, El G.


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