BS: Iraqi women and the Koran

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:23 PM

Teribus - I fear ignorance but not the world or dogs (except the little, yippy anklebiters). My fear is that the Taliban or other repressive, fanatical religious leaders will severely restrict the rights of Iraqi women, as they did in Afghanistan.

I fear that the rights and freedoms that Americans have always held dear are being stripped away by a government intent on creating fear and chaos at home. I fear that Bush has no game plan save getting his hands on more oil. I fear that people that support the war in Iraq have been motivated by fear of the unknown. These people are commonly called 'control freaks'.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: mack/misophist
Date: 25 May 04 - 10:34 AM

Yes, I did forget the Kurds; an oversight for which I must apologize. This makes Iraq even more complex because, as I understand it, their position is unstettled.

As for translating the Koran, yes there are translations, mostly English. Notice that I said 'observant' Muslims, however. My information comes from my copy of the Koran (translated by a Pakistani) and from Palestinian friends. 'Observant' Muslims feel that translation degrades and distorts the message.

Herr Schaum is technically correct in all he says. But he omits the war that began the Shia/Sunni split and all its concommitant ill will. In every day life, the per centage required for the 'Concensus' is ignored. Oratory is content with a majority.

Teribus, also, is technically correct in his list of secular Muslim states. My characterization comes from an article in Jane's a few years ago which further defined these states in terms of how prevalent Sharia was and how dominant religious leadership was.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 10:31 AM

East Coast of Oz, maybe?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 04 - 10:25 AM

Indonesian fishing boat - Pacific Ocean? Where was the fishing boat making for? If its destination was Australia then it would have been either the Indian Ocean or Timor Sea wouldn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: freda underhill
Date: 25 May 04 - 09:46 AM

Nine Parts of Desire - the hidden world of Islamic women - by geraldine Brooks, published by Anchor. This great book is written by an Australian journalist who worked for some years in the Middle East.

I have met and interviewed Iraqi women from a range of backgrounds, including Arabs, Turkmen, Kurds and women of both Sunni and Shia background. Some were spohisticated, educated and unveiled. Some were sophisticated and veiled, and some were from very protected backgrounds.

One woman who I will always remember is an older Turkman woman,face weathered from outdoors living, missing teeth, covered with tribal tattoos, who had a wonderful sense of humour. Her extremely beautiful young daughter was educated, intelligent and without the tribal tattoos.

They had both survived an Indonesian fishing boat which sank in the Pacific ocean, the survivors on this occasion were rescued by an Australian navy boat.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 May 04 - 09:18 AM

To get back to the title of the thread, ie women and Islam/Iraq.
I too know little about the finer points of the religion, but I do find the role of women appears to that of subservience. All the prohibitions that I know of seem to suit a masculine/suppresive viewpoint, and pongs a bit of control freakery. I know that I feel sorry for them, although they may not thank me for my pity.
JGM

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 May 04 - 08:10 AM

Hrothgar: you're dead right. The situation the Kurds are in fits in to a list that includes Northern Ireland, Cyprus and Palestine/Israel: problems which seem to defy any attempt to find an easy solution. (Middle Eastern history is not simple. Saladin was a Kurd, not an Arab, for example).
    Sorry if dragging in the Kurds seems to be thread-creep. But I think it's valuable to point out that statements that start "Muslims think...." or ""Arabs are....." or "Iraqis believe...." need reading rather carefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Hrothgar
Date: 25 May 04 - 07:51 AM

"Your statement, like a lot of British and American opinion on Iraq, tends to ignore the Kurds because they dont fit easily into most people's view of the situation."

Well, the Iranians, Iraqis, and Turks have problems fitting the Kurds into their views of the situation, too, so what chance do the poor old Poms and Yanks have?

Probably the most reasonable result is to give the Kurds their own country, but I don't want to have to tell that to the abovementioned Iranians, Iraqis, and Turks. Oh, and maybe to the Armenians.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 04 - 07:02 AM

Most of the faithful oppose translating the Koran.

That seems a very questionable assertion indeed. There are numerous translations from Islamic sources, including translations into English published in Saudi Arabia. There are also translations online.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 May 04 - 06:08 AM

Mack/Misophist. I'm sure you are trying to clarify matters, but I really can't let you get away with some of your stuff. You seem to think it's highly significant that Shiites are the majority in Iran, Sunnis in Iraq. This is just not so. Now, I dont know how they conduct censuses in Iraq, but I am absolutely sure(and so is every iraqi I know) that Shiites are the majority in Iraq, easily. This is going to be the big problem in any kind of "transition to democracy". The realiy of the situation is the Kurds are currently more or less autonomous, and in no way will they submit to any Islamist Shiite government if it gets voted in by a majority. Ditto the Sunnis.
    And your statements that Iraqis are Arabic speaking needs a little qualifying. Arab Iraqis, as you might expect, are Arabic speaking. Kurdish iraqis, by and large, dont speak Arabic, or only a few words. Your statement. like a lot of british and American opinion on Iraq, tends to ignore the Kurds because they dont fit easily into most people's view of the situation.The conventional left-liberal anti-Bush line, and the gung-ho pro-Bush position, have one thing in common: they dont accommodate the Kurds very easily!
   Because the Kurds are largely inexplicable to most people, they tend to get ignored. This, i believe, is a big big mistake.
    (I've never been to Iraq, but I know a lot of Iraqis).

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 04 - 05:37 AM

dianavan - 24 May 04 - 03:12 PM

"... and yes, I fear the Taliban and other radical fundamentalists."

From your posts Dianavan, you appear to fear and distrust the world and it's dog.

mack/misophist - 25 May 04 - 12:37 AM

"Iraq is largely Sunni."

Complete and utter rubbish, Sunni's are and always have been a minority group in Iraq, far out numbered by Iraq's Shia population.

As for your comment:

"It's such a shame, because, despite Saddam Hussein, Iraq was one of the two secular Muslim states. No more."

Again complete and utter rubbish - to name a few:
- Morocco
- Algeria
- Tunisia
- Egypt
- Turkey
- Lebanon
- Pakistan
- Malaysia
- Indonesia

ALL secular muslim States.

dianavan - 25 May 04 - 12:17 AM

"So regardless of who is in power in Iraq, the muslim faith will still be guided by the local religious leader. And irrespective of what the Koran says, women's rights will be dictated by the religious leaders."

Bush's fault? Don't be ridiculous, formerly a secular state under a dictatorship, in the coming months and years, the people of that country will decide, the women of Iraq are not just going to give up what they once had, why should they.

Although a babtised Christian - there is no bloody Christian religious leader on this earth going to dictate to me what I should think and do - that is for me and my conscience to decide.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 25 May 04 - 05:05 AM

Add to this the Doctrine of the Concensus, which states that whatever the majority of the faithful believe to be true, is true, and you have a mess to deal with.
This description is wrong. Not the majority decides, but the consensus must be unanimous (hadith: My community will never agree in an error).
Consensus (ijma') is the least root of jurisprudence (usul al-fiqh); the first ones being Koran, Hadith (reports of sayings and doings of Muhammad), qiyas (conclusion by analogy).
The split started with a death and has led to many more. The split started before the election of Ali Ibn-Abi-Talib as 4. successor (khalifa) of Muhammad. The shi'a (=party) were the followers of Ali who saw him as the only Muslim fit for khalifa because he was cousin, foster brother, and son in law of the prophet. Furthermore he was considered by them the first follower of Muhammad. Only through his sons the bloodline of the prophet was continued, and so the shi'a always supported his descendants.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 25 May 04 - 04:10 AM

Thanks from me as well, mack/misophist. Your explanation was clear and concise...something often rare around here...xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: mack/misophist
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:37 AM

Further, theres the matter of the Sunni - Shia split. Iran has almost all the world's Shites; 40 to 50 million of them. Iraq is largely Sunni. The split started with a death and has led to many more. Look up the story of the martyr Hussein. That should explain it.

In metropolitan areas that are in peace. The two can pray in the same mosque. Where tribal friction exists, they fight.

It's such a shame, because, despite Saddam Hussein, Iraq was one of the two secular Muslim states. No more.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:17 AM

Thanks Mack/misophist,

Thats the answer I was looking for.

So regardless of who is in power in Iraq, the muslim faith will still be guided by the local religious leader. And irrespective of what the Koran says, women's rights will be dictated by the religious leaders.
Too bad Bush has made such a mess of it. Its pretty hard to liberate anyone when the role models are so obviously evil. Its also too bad for the women of Iraq when the men with the power continue to dictate norms for the women. All of this destruction for nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 May 04 - 08:41 PM

"Yeah, well Arab credibility is shot in America and just about the rest of the world."

And pigs can fly.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: mack/misophist
Date: 24 May 04 - 08:40 PM

Most of the faithful oppose translating the Koran. The majority of the Muslim world does not speak Arabic. Iraqis do but not Afghanis or Iranians. Furthermore, most of the basis of Shari'a Law comes from one or more of several collections of Hadith (supposedly authenticated accounts of what Mohammed did/said on certain occasions). These are not widely available. This places believers at the mercy of the imams, who may or may not be well educated; who may or may not abuse their positions. Add to this the Doctrine of the Concensus, which states that whatever the majority of the faithful believe to be true, is true, and you have a mess to deal with. Remember, there is no central authority to define Islam. It's all local. Almost every observant Muslim believes that he practices authentic Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan
Date: 24 May 04 - 08:06 PM

Noreen - Thanks for the link. Yes, I know that democracy must come from the people and cannot be imposed. Thats why it is so shortsighted of the U.S. govt. to think they can liberate Iraq. What happens to the culture? What will it mean for women? I'm sure the religious leaders will still be in place.

Martin - clitorectomy is not a matter of religion. It is a cultual custom and is practiced in many countries, including Africa and the Middle East. Thank goodness I live in North America!

Is your life better without your foreskin?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 May 04 - 08:04 PM

Yeah, well Arab credibility is shot in America and just about the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Noreen
Date: 24 May 04 - 07:56 PM

Is "American style democracy" to be forced onto a foreign country, with its own culture, traditions and history, dianavan?
Is it any wonder then that there is such anti-US feeling in the world?


From Harvard Magazine, July-August 2003:
Ultimately, democracy must be homegrown....
I don't think the United States can help build such institutions alone. Our credibility is shot in the Arab world; we are perceived primarily as imperialists, out to build a postwar Iraq that serves our own national interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Noreen
Date: 24 May 04 - 07:39 PM

Literacy levels in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Gareth
Date: 24 May 04 - 07:29 PM

Hmmm ! I am not convinced that functional illiteracy is that uncommen in the UK. (This from experience) Does anybody have an objective source on this ?

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 04 - 06:00 PM

I wouldn't trust any government's published literacy figures for any population anywhere. In North America, that figure is arrived at by countin people and newspapers. We always show a 99% literacy rate, The figure is bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 04 - 05:41 PM

Generally speaking people, it's at primary school people learn to read in England, and I'd imagine it'd be teh same in Iraq, so I wouldn't think statistics about post secondary would be too relevant.

I'd have thought that, as with Christians, it wouldn't be so much the actual ability to read that'd get in the way here, but rather shared understandings of how to interpret the scriptures.

Here's an interesting article about women and Islam: ISLAMIC TRADITIONS AND THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 May 04 - 05:33 PM

Let me ask you this, dianavan.

Is female circumsion practiced and performed in Islam?

I don't know if it is or isn't mandated or mentioned in the Koran, but it isn't Jews or Christians doing this nonsense.

Would your life be better without your clitoris?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Ed.
Date: 24 May 04 - 05:10 PM

If the U.S. is successful in bringing democracy to Iraq

Was that meant as a joke?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan
Date: 24 May 04 - 05:03 PM

I picked that up from an Iranian woman. Perhaps she was speaking generally about Moslem women.

McGrath - I find those statistics to be quite vague. 47% enter post secondary. How many finish? How many men and how many women? The 60% literacy rate does not tell us how many men and how many women, either. Nor does it differentiate between faunctional literacy and critical literacy.

Just because you can read an advertisement, street sign or bank book doesn't necessarily mean you can or will read the Koran.

I am assuming (perhaps, incorrectly) that many women in Iraq and the middle east, generally, listen to the edicts of the religious leaders rather than interpret the teachings of the Koran on their own. Its probably much the same for Christianity and Judaism or any religion.

I will try to word my inquiry more carefully.

If the U.S. is successful in bringing democracy to Iraq, what will they do about freedom of religion? What will they do about women's rights?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 24 May 04 - 05:03 PM

Like any other document, control gives power.
Those who hold the power aren't likely to share it.
And since they control the document, they can disseminate what it contains with their spin of things. Keep the peasants ignorant and even if they get ahold of the document they'll never be able to tell that you did them wrong.

One of the big problems with the stone tablets given Moses was that they were carved away from the mountain. The world would probably be a little better off had they been written out in the stars for all to see as "proof" and no one could tamper with the wording.

Subject: RE: BS: Iranian women and the Koran
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 04 - 04:04 PM

The trouble is, not many Iraqis can actually read the Koran

Adult literacy in Iraq is 60% according to this site. And, as I understand it, anyone who can read Arabic can read the Koran - the language hasn't changed that much. (Of course interpeting what any scriptures mean is always a more complicated business than just being able to read the words. That goes for Muslims as much as it does for Christians and Jews.)

Subject: RE: BS: Iranian women and the Koran
From: Ed.
Date: 24 May 04 - 03:50 PM

The trouble is, not many Irqis [sic] can actually read the Koran

Where on earth did you pick up that idea?

Subject: RE: BS: Iranian women and the Koran
From: dianavan
Date: 24 May 04 - 03:12 PM

Sorry Quest and others - Will Joe or one of the clones, please change the title to Iraqi women and the Koran? Thats a big mistake. I meant to say Iraq.

... and yes, I fear the Taliban and other radical fundamentalists.

I know that they are 3 separate countries. Sorry for the confusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Iranian women and the Koran
From: freda underhill
Date: 24 May 04 - 03:09 PM

Guest: chill out.

Subject: RE: BS: Iranian women and the Koran
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 04 - 02:50 PM

The introductory posting in this thread is one of the most confused things I've ever seen on Mudcat. Dianavan calls the thread, "Iranian women and the Koran," and then goes on and on about women in Iraq without mentioning Iran.

People in Iraq, who are (generally) ethnically Arab, are referred to as "Iraqi." People in Iran, who are (generally) ethnically Persian, are referred to as "Iranian." Iraq and Iran, which spent many years at war with each other, are not the same country.

Furthermore, Dianavan's opening paragraph says: "The question of rights and freedoms in Iraq make me wonder about the role of women in Iraq. Of course I fear the control of the Taliban but I'm not sure how or if the American idea of democracy in Iraq will or will not effect the customs."

Taliban? What does the Taliban, the former governing regime in Afghanistan, have to do with either Iraq or Iran.

Memo to Dianavan: Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan are three different countries. Your confusion is akin to referring to the United States, Mexico and Chile as the same countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Iranian women and the Koran
From: Amos
Date: 24 May 04 - 02:17 PM

Apathetic resignation is not really a viable option; but it is also true that given enough oppression by force continued long enough one can induce a lot of stupidity in a human population. It takes a long time to get used to the idea that one's own intelligence should be re-acvivated.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Iranian women and the Koran
From: Kim C
Date: 24 May 04 - 02:03 PM

I am ignorant about the Koran. However I am reading a book right now called Princess Sultana's Daughters, about the Saudi royal family; and Princess Sultana, who is all for women's rights, makes it very plain that while the Koran doesn't call for women to be veiled, ancient tradition does.

It's not unlike some of the conundrums in Christianity today. People will believe what the leaders tell them, rather than checking out the source for themselves.

Subject: BS: Iranian women and the Koran
From: dianavan
Date: 24 May 04 - 01:42 PM

The question of rights and freedoms in Iraq make me wonder about the role of women in Iraq. Of course I fear the control of the Taliban but I'm not sure how or if the American idea of democracy in Iraq will or will not effect the customs.

I think our image of Iraqi women may be very distorted. It is my understanding that the Koran was very liberating for tribal women way back then. It gave them the right to sexual pleasure in marriage, it gave them reproductive rights, it gave them the right to divorce.

The trouble is, not many Irqis can actually read the Koran and depend on their religious leaders to interpret the writing. Much like the priests role in early Catholicism. If the religious leaders interpret the Koran to say a woman must... a religious woman will do it.

It is also my understanding that Allah is a merciful God but like the God of Jews and Christians, can be invoked as a God of war - depends on the mind set of the religious leaders and politicians. Are there any Koranic scholars out there?

Mostly I am interested in how American style democracy will effect the lives of Muslim women or if it will change anything at all.