Songwriting

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Amos
Date: 08 Apr 00 - 08:18 PM


 

Part 2 continues this thread over here.

Thar ye go!

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Apr 00 - 02:16 PM

Would someone puhleeze start a new thread on this subject? It's fascinating. Ebbie

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Mudjack
Date: 26 Jun 99 - 09:00 PM

Refreshed and a welcome site.Thanks shambles. Major Marv... All the workshops I've attended, The most consistent advice has been you have to believe in the efforts you put forth. I can't seem to ever complete a song, I get great hooks or choruses then falter flat on my face. So consider this advice from a great workshop attendee, believe in your work and keep moving forward. Mj

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Maj Marvelous
Date: 26 Jun 99 - 07:26 PM

I first started song writing in 1960 and have had gaps and songs off and on since then. Many times a phrase or thought will come to me in near sleep. If I don't get it rolling right then I sometimes lose it by morning. If I remember and write down a phrase or a couple of the words I can recall them later. Lately a couple of my songs have really made a hit with my country music friends. They want to record them and put out a tape. I am reluctant to do this as I am not confident that my songs are worthy of such endeavor. I do enjoy doing them myself, but only with my singing group and after a couple of practice sessions so people can support my efforts.

Times change and old songs get older and tired. I think anyone that feels they can write a song, should do it. You never know where it will end up.

Good thread

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Barbara
Date: 07 Nov 98 - 10:59 AM

Ah, Shambles, can you imagine a more boring place than one where we all were PC and did and said what we were supposed to?

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Nov 98 - 08:19 AM

Barbara

I found the Zeke Hoskin, Lyrics site that you suggested HERE

Well worth a look, the lyrics do seem to stand up quite well without the music.

Great stuff. I thought that 'I've Forgotten The Chords' was super and given our exchanges about the 'man/woman' thing, I really liked Bicycle Fish!... We may not like it much sometimes but we do desparately need each others point of view.

I was suprised that I didn't see 'ol' Zeke when I was under the table though?

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Dave T
Date: 07 Nov 98 - 01:40 AM

Barbara,
I posted the lyrics to "Annabelle" by Gillian Welch under the thread "Lyrics Add: Annabelle (by Gillian Welch)".
Dave T

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Bert
Date: 06 Nov 98 - 08:39 AM

The Shambles,

That explains things. Those words didn't seem to match your usual buoyant mood.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 04:20 PM

Thanks Bert

I don't know if I agree with all or any the sentiments expressed in the songs but does that matter?

As a man happily married to a wonderful woman for over twenty five years I can't say that any of the thoughts expressed in those two songs are from my own direct experience.

I used my imagination to think what it would be like to be in those positions and wrote from that point of view. They were supposed to be fun. Surely we all sing songs that we don't have first hand knowledge of, or totally agree with the sentiments expressed.

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Barbara
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 04:10 PM

Yah, my turn under the table, Shambles.
I should have said, when *I* feel that way about someone it is because I haven't been honest about my feelings, and so am feeling trapped by the other's expectations.
It isn't a guy thing, it's a chicken thing. When I feel powerless, I complain to others. Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Bert
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 03:44 PM

I wrote it back at the beginning of the year. It just seemed appropriate for that point in the discussion.
Next time I get with Max I'll get him to record it for me and put it on line.

I love Sara's Gone but I don't think I could sing it, It's much too powerful for me.

I like The Shambles songs as well, I don't know as I fully agree with all the sentiments but they would be fun to sing if the occasion was right.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 03:29 PM

Thanks Bert

That's about the size of it.

Maybe this whole thread should be done in song?

Barbara

No it's not a blues, it's a bit like the feel of Bob Dylan's 'She belongs to me'.

Hey, at least I feel the need to duck, when I make what could be thought of by others as 'sexist' remarks, " Guys like that" indeed! Your turn to go under the table.....*Grins*.

As for the 'size' thing. Of course it appears to matter more to us than to you, which was the whole point. In the song, she was trying to 'kick' him where it would hurt most. In fact, it was, I thought, my clever way of saying that she thought he was a W****R!

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Barbara
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 03:01 PM

Oh, lovely, Bert! What's the tune?
I still think if a woman wants to insult a man, she's much more likely to say something along the order of 'you can't get it up' than 'your weinie's too small'.
But it doesn't detract from that being a nifty song. You just cranked that out now? If so, I'm green with envy. But thank you for sharing that.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Pete M
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 02:54 PM

Barbara,
I've been following this thread, much in the same vein as Mick, as song writing is something I am of course interested in, but which seems a black art to me; just can't seem to get my head around the essentials.
I'd just like to say how much I admire your ability, and courage. Courage to write the song about Sara, and even more so to post it here for critique when you are obviously so close to the subject matter.

Best wishes

Pete M

Subject: Lyr Add: SIZE DOESN'T MATTER (Bert Hansell)
From: Bert
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 02:41 PM

I'm sorry I can't resist it. Remember you guys started it.

SIZE DOESN'T MATTER
(Bert Hansell)

When I was a Kid, we went for ice cream,
My sister had vanilla and I had a raspberry-ripple-rocky-road-chocolate-fudge-sundae-dream.
I looked at hers and I started crying,
When I saw that her ice cream was bigger than mine;

But Ma said....

"Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter
It's the flavor you see
Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter".
Well it matters to me.

When I went to school, I tried hard to please
But my sister got A's while I got mostly D's.
I took my report home for mother to see
I remembered the ice cream and what she'd said to me;

So I said....

"Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter
For I tried hard you see
Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter".
She said "it matters to me". *Thump*

I started courting when I was sixteen,
The girl next door was the girl of my dreams;
But she got real mad and she called me a louse,
When she caught me staring real hard at her blouse;

She said....
"Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter
If you really love me --
Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter".
Well it matters to me.

When I got a job I worked hard every day,
Hoping to see an increase in my pay.
Though every pay check I got was so small
My Boss said "Don't worry, don't worry at all

Because....
Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter
And I'll make you VP
Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter".
Well it matters to me.

The girl next door was the love of my life,
she finally consented that she'd be my wife.
How well I remember the night we were wed,
How she raised her left eyebrow as I climbed into bed.

She said....
"Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter
It's how you use it you see
Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter".
Well it matters to me.

Copyright Bert Hansell, 1998

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Peter T.
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 01:43 PM

Dear Barbara, it is pretty weird having these different responses to different things going on, so maybe a new thread is a good idea -- though I have probably oversaid anything I had to about the song. Not to worry about kid credentials! I have been around a lot of kids! and I have known a lot of runners and crawlers and older brothers and sisters running through sprinklers while toddlers shriek along and try to catch up. Obviously 2 is borderline. I was just wondering what it all looked like, well, you know, children in the sun and then going back into the dark.

Yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Barbara
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 01:19 PM

CAUTION, GRAPHIC CONTENT.
Shambles,
It's pretty rough speaking for a woman, we tend to be more of suckers than that, but there was only one place that jarred me, and that was the line about the dinky toy and playing with it.
It struck me as false because 1. in my experience, size matters to you guys a whole lot more than us. Maybe there is some really basic thing about external/internal dichotomy that is related to one's organs, do you think? Think about it. Size is going to feel more important to the inserter. In lovemaking, each sex changes size, and what happens if things are working, is you get a match. I'm sorry if I'm getting too graphic here, but I was just realizing what some of the roots of each side's performance fears are. (Ours have more to do with lubrication).
And, 2. If he's as bad as she says, she's probably grateful when he beats off. Anyway, he probably hides that he's doing it, too.
In regards to the unwilling guy at the altar, you asked, why is she marrying him, and that question didn't even occur to me. I assumed he hadn't told HER what he was saying in the song, 'cause guys like that don't. I assumed he'd said to her the things one is supposed to and now he felt trapped.
Is it a blues?
I'll post a blues that's similar in tone in a bit (It's on the other computer, and I have to go and retrieve it) called "I Want My Money Back" by Saffire. I'll put it on a separate thread because this one is getting long.
And is anyone unhappy about our talking about individual songs in this thread? Should we start a separate thread?
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Barbara
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 11:55 AM

Peter, you don't live around kids? A two year old is a toddler. Most kids walk around a year, but don't like to do it much till 2 and a half or three or sometimes later. Sara could walk; didn't want to. She wanted to hold on and be held. (I'm still saying, God, I didn't know how much and why). The older kids ran through the sprinkler carrying her on a hip, she liked that. She weighed practically nothing.
And, yes, it was that picture of reaching out to hold something that I couldn't that made a basis for the song. So many appalling things happened. At the family gathering afterward, I asked David if he liked the family where he was staying (the CSD picked the older kids up at school and put them in foster homes)He looked up at the male social worker who never left his side, and said, "I can't talk about it."
Yes, Peter, it is hard to write, and hard to get critiqued. Finally, this is all about that same bottom honesty. What is true, and how do we speak that truth?
I appreciate the people here who have taken the time to think about this on this thread and speak.

Shambles, I'll get back to your song in a separate post.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Peter T.
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 11:03 AM

I lost a sentence in there. I wanted to point to the sequence in the last verse where you hold on to Lisa and want to hold on to what is now beyond hands, and the passage in your description about carrying Sara -- I was struck that this was the physical expression of the helplessness people on the outside feel, who can do so little.

Yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Peter T.
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 10:37 AM

Dear Barbara, Thanks for not taking my head off -- not only is putting a song forward inherently emotional, but the subject is maybe even more emotional.

Everything you write in your description adds to the song. Can some of it get in the song? I think your description of Sara at the Easter picnic is unutterably moving -- maybe to reapply what I said, she was already gone before she was gone. I think it is interesting that your description, even as prose, has such a powerful undercurrent to it -- but you see that picture and what it meant when you sing, and we don't. Given that you have cut something that is hokey, you obviously know where the dangers lie -- it would certainly be nice to have a verse with some of those details in it -- you have such an eye for that.

There are problems with that, of course: one of the good things about the song as it stands is the claustrophobia -- you are in this tight house, and kids get crushed, and no one is supposed to know, etc. But ....

Also, it is interesting that in your notes there is a movement back and forth about whether the song is in part about your relationship to Lisa. In your first reply, I got a sense that the song was about Lisa. Maybe that is part of the puzzle -- is the song in mourning for Lisa, for Sara, or for the whole situation? I don't say it can't be about all of them, but it may be that weighting it towards Sara is what you are trying to avoid, because the song is about the fact that "Sara is gone" as a result, and not about Sara. In that sense, staying outside the characters is right, and staying away from saying more about Sara is also right. So your original impulse is right.

Anyway, I apologise for general impertinence -- it is hell to write, to get the balance right, and everything. I am still haunted by your description, though. This is a terrible question to ask, but I will ask it anyway. It is not clear from your description if Sara ran through the sprinkler by herself, or had to be carried or led. If she couldn't even run through a sprinkler by herself, that is a horrible detail that no one could think up.

Yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 09:12 AM

Barbara,

I believe that your statement makes ultimate sense. My delivery of a song is affected enormously by whether or not I can sink into it and become the person delivering its message.

My opinion of "Sara's Gone" is found in the tears on my face. In my untrained opinion, it is powerful and relates the full tragedy of people ill prepared for the trials and challenges of marriage, let alone raising children. It seemed to me to tell of all the victims in this, from Todd and Lisa, to Sara, to David and Nessie. And it made tears run down my face as I imagined the scenes. I do not agree that Sara needed anymore developement in the lyric. I could see every two year old child I have ever known in her, and I think that is the point. I would love to hear you sing this, but I am afraid that I would have to be in a dark corner, as it would likely move me deeply to see you sing it with the feelings that you have about it.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: Lyr Add: I'M RESPECTABLE NOW
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 06:05 AM

As it was me that started the 'woman/man' thing I was very interested in the views about singing and writing from the others point of view. I have written a song (again one not to be taken too seriously) from a woman's point of view, only to have woman friend dismiss it with, "a man would write a song like that". The implication was that it was a typical man's view, which of course it was, how could I do otherwise? I am a man and that was the whole point. Her reaction was interesting and I will post the words here, for your reaction and in an attempt to redress the balance with the one about the guy standing at the altar. (Why did she still want to marry him anyway?).

I'M RESPECTABLE NOW

I don't want you, around here any more
I'm respectable now
I know you're the cat, that, got my cream
But I would have spilt it anyhow
Don't come sniffing around my back door
I'm respectable now

You walk with one foot in the gutter
With your twitch, your limp, your lisp and your stutter
With your bad breath and your belly swelled with beer
I once thought you were the 'bees knees'
Guess I was just easily pleased
Thought all of your 'bullshit' was sincere
Please forgive me if I sound bitter
But when you ran off with the baby-sitter
You left me and took all the things we had
It was a blessing in disguise
I saw the light and I realised
The future, without you didn't look too bad

I don't want you, around here any more
I'm respectable now
I know you're the cat, that, got my cream
But I would have spilt it anyhow
Don't come sniffing around my back door
I'm respectable now

My beau's have now got suits on
They don't make love with their boots on
They don't just want my body they want me
They got this thing that they call foreplay
They don't just grab me in the hallway
And bend me down so I don't block the TV
You thought you were Errol Flynn
But you made love like Rin-Tin-Tin
But a German Shepherd was better looking than you
And when it comes to your 'pride and joy'
You were hung like a 'Dinky Toy'
And you sure played a lot with it too

I don't want you, around here any more
I'm respectable now
I know you're the cat, that, got my cream
But I would have spilt it anyhow
Don't come sniffing around my back door
I'm respectable now

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Barbara
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 10:47 PM

Sure, Shambles. Give you a hand up?
Here are some other things I know about Sara. Do any of them add to the song? She had silver blond hair and blue eyes, she was shy and small underweight and clingy, what psychologists call 'failure to thrive'. The pictures were snaps from the Easter picnic at our house two weeks before. It was that first warm spring sunshine and the kids were running in the sprinkler, but we had to take turns carrying Sara, she wouldn't be parted from the people holding her. There is one picture of her, in the sun by herself and the wood porch in shadow behind her, that I always see when I sing that verse. She was 3 days short of two when she died.
I like Sydney Carter's Silver in the Stubble, but I would never sing it, it isn't my voice. Sometimes you can sing, or even write something from the perspective of a member of the opposite sex, but it still has to fit you.
One of my pagan friends says a singing a song well is the same as raising power with a spell or casting a glamour.
To me that means becoming what I sing, and showing it to the people listening. Telling the story, not performing. A kind of egoless place. Does that make sense?
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 08:10 PM

Seed You again, make a very good point when you say "songs are meant to be sung" etc. I think we have to remember to be careful when we post or write about the words to songs here. For what we see is like half a pair 'pants'(trousers), just words without the music or the performance.

I can think of many 'great' songs, the words of which if posted here, would look very ordinary on their own. I'm sure, like you, that if could see Barbara performing her song we would have more to think about and feel than ever the words on their own could contain.

As for the sex thing, we are different! Let's all rejoice in that.

Can I come out from under the table now?

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: BSeed
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 04:27 PM

Sure, Jeff, a woman could sing it, just as Joan Baez could sing "I Am a Rake and a Rambling Boy," but it's still a guy thing, a song from the point of view of a man about to be hung, thinking of home, his parents, and his girlfriend (whom he may have killed). A man could also sing "Stand by Your Man," but he would sound hypocritical and self-serving, if sung as if to his own woman, and patronizing and sexist if sung as a father or uncle or priest or other male advisor, or it could be sung satirically, like Kinky Friedman singing "Get Your Biscuits in the Oven and Your Buns into Bed." --seed

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Barbara
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 12:40 PM

and, yes please, Dave, I'd like to see the Gillian Welch. Don't know her stuff. Enlighten me. B* Barbara

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Barbara
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 12:36 PM

I like it, Jeff. All the edges. Basic 12 bar? or something else?
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Jeff in Louisville
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 11:38 PM

BSeed: Actually, I should think it would be a VERY powerful statement should a woman, in fact, perform "Green, Green Grass of Home"...

I am a blues guitarist and songwriter myself. This is my most recent blues:

I can't rise on the sun because the night is where I live.
I can't rise on the sun because the night is where I live.
I'm blind in daylight but I see what the night can give.

Where the corner meets the river in the needle's eye of night.
Where the corner meets the river in the needle's eye of night.
I'm looking for laughter even if it's gone and died.

I sit on the river and keep an eye on the moon.
I sit on the river and keep an eye on the moon.
If it falls in the river I'll sweep it out with my broom.

I got a stale cigarette, I light it just to see my way.
I got a stale cigarette, I light it just to see my way.
If I can find a tabernacle, I'll hide my face, and pray.

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Dave T
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 11:31 PM

Barbara,
Perhaps what Peter is talking about is that he feels there should be more of Sara's life told in the song. Maybe relating some of her joyous moments along with some almost forgotten aspirations of Lisa's could be used to contrast the overall bleakness amd hopelesness of the situation. Take a look a Gillian Welch's lyrics, particularly "Annabelle". If you don't have them, let me know and I'll post them. Personally, I don't find anything wrong with the direct approach. What works for some songwriters doesn't work for others. If it feels true to you as a writer and performer, that will come through.
Dave T

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: BSeed
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 10:47 PM

Barbara (and Shambles), It moved me--and I'm sure hearing you sing it would move me to tears. Songs are meant to be sung, just as poetry is meant to be read aloud. I'm sure that your connection with Sara comes through strong and clear to people who hear your inflections, your timbre, and everything else you (we) use to communicate feelings. And as for guy things and girl things, I'm glad there are such things in music: "Stand by Your Man" would be a very different song sung by a man; a woman would have a hard time with "The Green, Green Grass of Home." I still can't get used to our male lead guitarist singing "Wildwood Flower." --seed

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 10:45 PM

What a great discourse. I purposely am "lurking" on this one, mostly because I feel out of my league. I am gathering much information as I listen to my friends who are so very talented have this discussion. And done with grace mixed with just the right amount of "edge". Please do not stop, as a much travelled human being who is struggling with how to tell his stories in song, is learning much from you.

Thanks from the bottom of my heart.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Barbara
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 04:16 PM

Sure, Peter, I asked because I wanted to know. (Besides, there's plenty of room under the table with the Shambles)

You said: "I think that while there are parts of the song about Sara that I like, it is too overtly a message song."

Interesting. I've been critiqued before for not having MORE of a message in it; a conclusion.

You said: "I don't think the relationship between the reportorial outrage and the emotional response is worked through enough, so that we are being pushed into feeling these emotions rather than having them emerge from our response to the situation. We see all this situation from the outside, and then we are asked to feel pity about it."

I understand the principle. Do you mean I need to show you something more of how I (the singer) loved Sara? I had a bridge at one point describing Lisa holding Sara, but I cut it because I thought it was too hokey.
And I was trying to write something that wasn't particularly outraged, just saying: this is how it happened. (not judging, not excusing).
Can you give me a specific example of what would change the telling to a more 'inside' view?
Thanks for taking the time to look at it and speak your mind. I may not do what you suggest, but I certainly will listen.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 01:32 PM

Thank you Barbara for the kind words.

The head says "dead" explains it perfectly thank you. In the nicest possible way, it was a 'woman' thing afetr all.

As for the guy at the altar..... Well it's a 'man' thing....................... *runs under the table and stays there*

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From:
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 10:10 AM

Shambles, I like your nonwedding song a lot. Check out the Hunting the Duck thread for a link to the Zeke Hoskin page and a song from his "Reprieve" tape called something like "Gonna throw myself at you and see if I stick" (Y'know spagetti, wall?)
And I don't think it's particularly a woman thing. (So come out from under that table before I hit you.) I struggled all the way through the writing of that with what to tell and what NOT to tell. Geoff had me cut the verse about cops and coroners - it was graphic and he was right. Graphic is not always more forceful. I was looking for single voice to tell the story.
He kept asking me, asking our class, "What do you want to say?" For me, I wanted to say that (1) it was awful and wrong, and (2) I was grieving and (3) I knew all of this and still loved Lisa .
I don't see 'gone' as a euphimism, but rather as a message from the heart. The head says 'dead', the heart says, 'gone, forever.'
Try singing it with 'Sara's dead' instead of 'gone', and see how it changes. Do you like it better? Blessings,
Barbara

I'm left with a question from your song. What is this guy DOING at the altar when he so clearly wants to be elsewhere? He should do everyone involved a favor and split before it's too late.

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From:
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 09:54 AM

Well, if this is really a songwriting thread....At the risk of taking Barbara at her word (don't ask for feedback, you may get it), I think that while there are parts of the song about Sara that I like, it is too overtly a message song. I don't think the relationship between the reportorial outrage and the emotional response is worked through enough, so that we are being pushed into feeling these emotions rather than having them emerge from our response to the situation. We see all this situation from the outside, and then we are asked to feel pity about it. Joyce once defined false sentiment as being allowed to indulge in the emotion without having paid the price. Songs about dead children almost invariably cross over that line.

If I could speak to the writer (Hey, I can!) I would for example ask for a verse or a line or two about Sara. As the song is, she is either a faceless victim or the projection of the sentimentality of the mourners (pictures on the coffin, etc.). I was even wondering if it would be even more powerful to have Sara live, but be gone. Into her own world. I have known abused children, and death is not the worst thing that happens to them.

Yours, Peter

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 07:50 AM

So many things to respond to in this thread and it's not been very easy lately to get in and answer. But here goes.

Dave and Peter T(T for two?) I can't add very much to what you have pointed out about the move between the colloquial and the "heightened", as you say, now you have pointed it out it seems very obvious..... Lyle Lovett's 'If I Had Pony' is one of my very favourite songs and for a 'simple' song works so well on a number of levels.....a good song?

Roger Thanks. There is nothing to add to that.

Seed Good luck with your course. When you get them together for ensemble playing and singing, I hope you can get to what Roger described. "The harmony and oneness" when "it's just right". Something to aim for.

Barbara I liked the song, please just carry on singing it. There is just one thing and it's not in any way to critisise the song but as point for disscussion.

Your song is about death, or your feelings about a death but you do not mention the word? I wrote a song about life/death and in the song I used the word dead. My wife, who also writes said that she "would not use the word dead in a song". She felt that the word was too stark and detracted from the song as a whole. Is this a 'woman' thing do you think? *Ducks down with hands protecting head*

Bojangles I do agree about the ammount of songs it takes to come up with a good song and that the folk process, eventually sorting the wheat from the chaff, is probably the only way to find out if you have come up with one. Let's just hope that we are still around to see it.

I don't think that Woody was the best example to give though. True he did write a lot of songs but he used and re-used the same music for many of them, thus lessening the impact they may have made if they could have stood alone. It was always my one disapointment with Woody that he did use this apparent 'lazy' approach to song-writing. To me, it was almost like him writing a parody of his own songs. I don't know if he felt that the music was less important than the words and certainly his genius lay with words. Maybe he was just reflecting the low opinion that people in general have, of these types of tune, then and now.

I think that the good songs are a delicate balance between words and music. I don't think that the music is interchangable. I remember well my disgust at school when favorite hymns were presented with different tunes, it didn't work..... Interestingly I later found out that most of the tunes I liked the best were actually 'stolen' from the English folk tradition and credited to famous composers like Vaughan Williams etc. Some things never change do they?

"I Believe" etc

Subject: Lyr Add: STANDING AT THE ALTAR
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 06:08 AM

This is probably not to be sung at a wedding and not to be taken too seriously but it is my latest baby and belongs to all of you at the Mudcat, for it was you who inspired it. It was one of those songs that appear to write themselves. It's out of my 'minimalist' period and has two chords, the 1st and 7th.
The sub-title is... A Single Man's Second Thoughts.

STANDING AT THE ALTAR

I would like to say I love you but I just don't know
I would like a love that flowers but this just won't grow
I'm counting up the hours, they run so slow
I would like to say I'll miss you but you just won't go

Chorus

I just can't seem to see the wood from the trees
You won't find me at my best at moments like these
It's not the ground that's shaking it's just my knees
I'm standing at the altar, Lord help me please

I say that there's no water at the bottom of this well
It maybe smells of roses but I've lost my sense of smell
I would like to say it's special but I can't tell
I would like to say it's heaven but it feels like hell

Chorus

I'm just try to tell you everything's gone wrong
But you just carry on singing that same old song
You don't know what you've got until it's gone
I know what I got and I know it don't belong

Chorus

They say that a good woman may turn water into wine
I think maybe somebody must have left the cork in mine
All the things you're saying only come out as a whine
But when you're far away, you will sound just fine

Chorus

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Dave T
Date: 02 Nov 98 - 10:40 PM

Barbara,
It IS a powerful song. I think one of the purposes of songwriting (or any kind of writing, art, science, etc.) should be to describe the world around us in a new, different or more accurate way. The closer the description is to reality, the stronger the message. As for what to do with it, keep singing it. More discussion can only help.

Dave T

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: BSeed
Date: 02 Nov 98 - 09:45 PM

Steve, I can't take much credit for it other than posting it, but it inspired a couple of spinoffs: How to write a country song and how to write a folk song threads. Both (particularly the country song one) were a real kick. (I guess a lot of people are too serious about writing folk music [many deny it is possible*] to kick back and enjoy it.) --seed

*I think some of them believe in their hearts that real folk songs are the word of God.

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: To Bseed
Date: 02 Nov 98 - 05:25 PM

Loved your "How to write a Blues song" Post. I just wanted to add the fact that blues songs never truly commit to disaster or tragedy, instead they "believe"

"Gonna get up in the mornin, believe I'll dust my broom."

"I been shooting craps and gambling, woman I believe I done got broke"

"Somebody call for a doctor, believe I got the Pneumonia this time"

I believe we should stick to this when writing blues. Steve Latimer

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Barbara
Date: 01 Nov 98 - 01:49 PM

Thank you, Barbara. I welcome feedback on it. It feels like a powerful song to me, yet I sing it very rarely. It seems to stop traffic. That is to say, after I sing it in a song circle, instead of another song, we end up talking about child abuse.
I'm not sure what to do with it.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 98 - 04:10 PM

Barbara, a beautiful song. Blessings on you, too.

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From:
Date: 31 Oct 98 - 02:27 PM

Dear Seed, Well, I should say that I disagree with some of it -- the use of "abstract" puzzles me, and there are other problems I have -- it would probably make a good start for a debate. But there is something about it that is right, especially the part about being a vehicle for the music, and having some responsibility for a talent that touches people. I had never read anything like that. I also like the part about having to keep rooting yourself in the feeling for the music, which could of course turn into self-indulgence, but it can sure help when you are lost and weary to go back to the thread of why you got into music in the first place. The other nice thing he has in one of his interviews is something of an offhand remark about how archaic the whole role of the musician is -- how people just naturally want to gravitate towards one when he/she wanders into town. It again speaks to that sense of the absolutely ancient, primeval need for music which some of the people in this thread have also cited as the reason for songwriting. It gives it all a weightiness and that sense of responsibility to the tradition of muscimaking which I rather like. Harvey also makes good records (all by himself, from taping to shipping!)

Yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: BSeed
Date: 31 Oct 98 - 01:09 PM

Peter--Thanks. That is wonderful. I haven't looked at the website yet, but if the other stuff is anything like the above, what a resource! Again, thank you, thank you, thank you. --seed

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Peter T.
Date: 31 Oct 98 - 10:22 AM

I knew I had this around somewhere. This is also on Harvery Reid's site, where, as I said, he has a lot of other wise and some not-so-wise (but unique!) things to say about the musician.

GUITAR MUSIC

This was a hand-out given on the first day to my guitar class at Davis & Elkins College in 1992. There have been several requests for reprints of it, so here it is. (Harvey Reid)

Guitar music is a place where the elements of rhythm, tone, emotions, harmony, melody, poetry, preparation, solitude, friendship, intellect, physical training and spirituality all meet. It involves your spirit, your body, your heart and your mind, and it is both a solitary and a social act. It not only offers the player the pleasure of making music, but it also offers to the skilled the ability to actually change other people's thoughts and feelings. Just by doing something you love to do, you can impart profound things to others and give them something they value. Those who discover that they have this ability, who feel obliged to develop it and who use it generously, will experience a reward comprising not only the satisfaction of the act itself, but also an abstract pleasure in sharing and communicating with others through the language of music. There is an energy, a sense of purpose and a direction that it imparts to its practitioners that can give a gratifying sense of meaning in what threatens to seem like a meaningless world.

Only through a lifetime of music will you experience an understanding of all the aspects of the art, but a basic awareness and regular reminders of the existence of all these various ingredients that make up music will allow the student to progress more quickly toward a mastery of it. There is, as always, a price to pay, and there are responsibilities that come with having the power to change other's thoughts and feelings, and not all who set out on this learning path make it all the way through.

The essential element in the study of music is a love of music and an appreciation of its sacredness. Music is not something your hands or your voice do. It is not something your mind does. At its finest it is a transcendental state that involves all parts of you, and allows you to exist on the crest of a wave, in the exact moment of the present as you perform each part of the music. It is only there, in the present that we can truly live and have control over our lives, since the past and future are inaccessible to us. When you are deeply involved in music and when you have control of it, you can experience an excitement and a sense of well-being that is impossible to duplicate. The sensation of the pleasure of music making is the primary thing a student of music must focus on. If enough time is spent in joyous music making and if the desire to share and transmit this feeling is strong and sincere, the hands will train themselves and the voice will find its true expression. One cannot hurry the process–p; you must instead enjoy and cherish it as it slowly unfolds. There is an unfettered freedom in being a beginner that you may look back on fondly some day. The desire to be something other than what you are will impede your ability to grow, and the amount of pleasure that music brings is relatively constant. If you are not experiencing that pleasure and fulfillment as a student, then you must learn how to do that before you can go further. The magic that is music comes from such a place inside us. And any beginner can experience these sensations just as easily as the master. If not more easily.

Harvey Reid (Elkins West Virginia 1992)

© 1992 by Harvey Reid

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Peter T.
Date: 31 Oct 98 - 10:05 AM

Dear seed, If you have time, you might want to look at "www.woodpecker.com", Harvey Reid's site. Somewhere on the site is a page of advice to students that he gave to them on the first day of class (I think he taught guitar and/or folk music at a university for awhile). I thought it was quite powerful, and I sent it to a few educators I know, and then lost my copy! -- there are other interviews/ essays on the site about the craft of making music, how to keep people's attention while playing in a bar, and all sorts of other stuff. There is also a very interesting book called With Your Own Two Hands about learning how to play the piano -- what makes it interesting is a very detailed discussion about why people won't practice, and the virtues of practicing, and how to pace yourself, etc. A real teaching problem as you know is how to get them to do anything outside of class, and if they do anything, to have the right attitude towards it.

Just random thoughts from a sometime teacher.

Yours, Peter T.

Subject: Tune Add: SARA'S GONE (Barbara Millikan)
From: Barbara
Date: 31 Oct 98 - 09:43 AM

And here's the tune.

MIDI file: sara.mid

Timebase: 240

TimeSig: 4/4 24 8
Tempo: 100 (600000 microsec/crotchet)
Start
0480 1 61 080 0192 0 61 064 0048 1 62 080 0192 0 62 064 0048 1 64 080 0288 0 64 064 0072 1 64 080 0096 0 64 064 0024 1 64 080 0192 0 64 064 0048 1 64 080 0192 0 64 064 0048 1 66 080 0192 0 66 064 0048 1 64 080 0192 0 64 064 0048 1 61 080 0192 0 61 064 0048 1 59 080 0192 0 59 064 0048 1 57 080 0288 0 57 064 0072 1 59 080 0096 0 59 064 0024 1 57 080 0192 0 57 064 0048 1 54 080 0192 0 54 064 0048 1 52 080 0384 0 52 064 0336 1 52 080 0192 0 52 064 0048 1 57 080 0288 0 57 064 0072 1 57 080 0096 0 57 064 0024 1 57 080 0192 0 57 064 0048 1 57 080 0192 0 57 064 0048 1 61 080 0192 0 61 064 0048 1 64 080 0384 0 64 064 0096 1 64 080 0192 0 64 064 0048 1 64 080 0192 0 64 064 0048 1 59 080 0192 0 59 064 0048 1 59 080 0192 0 59 064 0048 1 61 080 0192 0 61 064 0048 1 59 080 0576 0 59 064 0144 1 64 080 0192 0 64 064 0048 1 64 080 0096 0 64 064 0024 1 64 080 0192 0 64 064 0048 1 64 080 0288 0 64 064 0072 1 64 080 0192 0 64 064 0048 1 66 080 0192 0 66 064 0048 1 64 080 0192 0 64 064 0048 1 61 080 0192 0 61 064 0048 1 59 080 0192 0 59 064 0048 1 57 080 0288 0 57 064 0072 1 59 080 0096 0 59 064 0024 1 57 080 0192 0 57 064 0048 1 54 080 0192 0 54 064 0048 1 52 080 0576 0 52 064 0144 1 52 080 0192 0 52 064 0048 1 59 080 0288 0 59 064 0072 1 59 080 0096 0 59 064 0024 1 59 080 0192 0 59 064 0048 1 59 080 0192 0 59 064 0048 1 61 080 0192 0 61 064 0048 1 59 080 0384 0 59 064 0096 1 52 080 0192 0 52 064 0048 1 54 080 0192 0 54 064 0048 1 57 080 0192 0 57 064 0048 1 57 080 0288 0 57 064 0072 1 59 080 0096 0 59 064 0024 1 57 080 0384 0 57 064 0096 1 61 080 0192 0 61 064 0048 1 62 080 0192 0 62 064 0048 1 64 080 1344 0 64 064 0096 1 66 080 0192 0 66 064 0048 1 64 080 0192 0 64 064 0048 1 62 080 1152 0 62 064 0048 1 59 080 0192 0 59 064 0048 1 59 080 0192 0 59 064 0048 1 61 080 0192 0 61 064 0048 1 62 080 1344 0 62 064 0096 1 61 080 0192 0 61 064 0048 1 59 080 0192 0 59 064 0048 1 57 080 1344 0 57 064
End

This program is worth the effort of learning it.

To download the March 10 MIDItext 98 software and get instructions on how to use it click here

ABC format:

X:1
T:
M:4/4
Q:1/4=100
K:C
^C6D2|E3EE2E2|^F2E2^C2B,2|A,3B,A,2^F,2|E,6E,2|
A,3A,A,2A,2|^C2E4E2|E2B,2B,2^C2|B,6E2|EE2E3E2|
^F2E2^C2B,2|A,3B,A,2^F,2|E,6E,2|B,3B,B,2B,2|
^C2B,4E,2|^F,2A,2A,3B,|A,4^C2D2|E8|-E4^F2E2|
D8|-D2B,2B,2^C2|D8|-D4^C2B,2|A,8|-A,13/4||

Subject: Lyr Add: SARA'S GONE (Barbara Millikan)
From: Barbara
Date: 30 Oct 98 - 11:17 PM

Here's the song I spoke of earlier. Blessings,
Barbara

SARA'S GONE
(Barbara Millikan)

Things got bad when Todd was drinking and then Lisa did some crack
And when the fighting started, the children hid in back.
Now Nessie's four and David's six, but Sara's only two,
And when the hitting started, she didn't know what to do.

CHORUS:
Sara's gone, Sara's gone,
How can it be, Sara's gone?

Sara ran between them, she'd already wet the bed,
And she got kicked, really hard. "Shut up! You're not hurt, " they said.
Todd smashed the TV when he left, Lisa tucked them in that night;
David and Nessie were terrified, and Sara, she was white.

CHO

Taking the photos from the casket, Lisa broke down and I held her
While the social worker led her kids away
We sat looking at the pictures of Sara in the sun,
When we all reached out to hold her, but now ... Sara's gone.

CHO.

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Bojangles
Date: 30 Oct 98 - 10:29 PM

Woody Guthrie -- certainly regarded as one of our very best songwriters -- reportedly wrote a total of about 1,500 songs in his life. How many of those can we rember on the spur of the moment? I have a hard time coming up wirh more than 15 or 20,and that takes a bit of a stretch! Why so few? Because, frankly, the vast majority of his songs are not remembered because they were not very good. Yet he remains the amanuensis of American folk poetry. I think the message is clear. Writing a song that will raise goose bumps on a listener is extremely difficult to do. A successful writer has to be willing to write a great many bad songs without discouragement and keep on writing if he is to have any hope of giving birth to a This Land is Your Land, or a John Henry, a Goodnight Irene, or a Buffalo Skinners. There are so many terrific songs out there, and a folksinger can almost be assured of eventual sxtinction if he insists upon singing only his own material. The folk process will eventually shake the wheat from the chaff. Inexoably the bad will die out and the good will live on, and no academy of awards can alter for long the truth of the process. And that is just one of the things that is so wonderful about the world.

Peter Stanley

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: BSeed
Date: 30 Oct 98 - 10:03 PM

This semester I'm teaching photography to students in an independent studies program (the students spend a half an hour a week with their teachers, who give them assignments, discuss the past assignments, test their knowledge, etc. Except most of my students are expected to spend a couple of hours a week in the darkroom...all of which has nothing to do with songwriting, it's just given as a description of the program i'm working in. Next semester I will add a class in traditional music, for either music appreciation or English (poetry) credit. I'll be giving instruction in guitar, banjo, autoharp, and harmonica, and directing individual studies in other instruments; we'll cover rhythm and harmonic theory as they relate to folk traditions, folk poetic forms such as blues and folk ballads. I'll ask my students to keep a journal, keeping track of practice time and content and progress, writing about the music they listen to (and that to which I introduce them), their concerns and ideas on how to express them musically...

Although the lessons will be individual, I will try to unite groups of students for ensemble playing and singing, in hopes of bringing them together for a recital at the end of the semester. I've talked to several students who are interested in the class, and have been told by some of the other teachers that students were expressing interest to them, as well. One of those I've talked with plays guitar better than I do (not such a stretch) and is interested in helping with the class. I'll try to get him credit for both the class and as a proctor.

I'll also give as readings and starters for discussions many of the things you have been posting about the songwriting process, and of course, direct the kids to the Mudcat.

I took yearbook portraits at the school over three days the last couple of weeks, an activity which required a lot of sitting around waiting for kids to finish their sessions with their teachers. The first day I read while waiting for customers. The second day I brought my Baby Taylor, and the third day my banjo. I got a lot of interest from students and a lot of support from the other teachers as well.

I think it will be both a lot of fun and a unique kind of learning experience for both the kids and me. I will welcome your feedback, suggestions, sources, etc. --seed