Songwriting

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From:
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 10:10 AM

Shambles, I like your nonwedding song a lot. Check out the Hunting the Duck thread for a link to the Zeke Hoskin page and a song from his "Reprieve" tape called something like "Gonna throw myself at you and see if I stick" (Y'know spagetti, wall?)
And I don't think it's particularly a woman thing. (So come out from under that table before I hit you.) I struggled all the way through the writing of that with what to tell and what NOT to tell. Geoff had me cut the verse about cops and coroners - it was graphic and he was right. Graphic is not always more forceful. I was looking for single voice to tell the story.
He kept asking me, asking our class, "What do you want to say?" For me, I wanted to say that (1) it was awful and wrong, and (2) I was grieving and (3) I knew all of this and still loved Lisa .
I don't see 'gone' as a euphimism, but rather as a message from the heart. The head says 'dead', the heart says, 'gone, forever.'
Try singing it with 'Sara's dead' instead of 'gone', and see how it changes. Do you like it better? Blessings,
Barbara

I'm left with a question from your song. What is this guy DOING at the altar when he so clearly wants to be elsewhere? He should do everyone involved a favor and split before it's too late.

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 01:32 PM

Thank you Barbara for the kind words.

The head says "dead" explains it perfectly thank you. In the nicest possible way, it was a 'woman' thing afetr all.

As for the guy at the altar..... Well it's a 'man' thing....................... *runs under the table and stays there*

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Barbara
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 04:16 PM

Sure, Peter, I asked because I wanted to know. (Besides, there's plenty of room under the table with the Shambles)

You said: "I think that while there are parts of the song about Sara that I like, it is too overtly a message song."

Interesting. I've been critiqued before for not having MORE of a message in it; a conclusion.

You said: "I don't think the relationship between the reportorial outrage and the emotional response is worked through enough, so that we are being pushed into feeling these emotions rather than having them emerge from our response to the situation. We see all this situation from the outside, and then we are asked to feel pity about it."

I understand the principle. Do you mean I need to show you something more of how I (the singer) loved Sara? I had a bridge at one point describing Lisa holding Sara, but I cut it because I thought it was too hokey.
And I was trying to write something that wasn't particularly outraged, just saying: this is how it happened. (not judging, not excusing).
Can you give me a specific example of what would change the telling to a more 'inside' view?
Thanks for taking the time to look at it and speak your mind. I may not do what you suggest, but I certainly will listen.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 10:45 PM

What a great discourse. I purposely am "lurking" on this one, mostly because I feel out of my league. I am gathering much information as I listen to my friends who are so very talented have this discussion. And done with grace mixed with just the right amount of "edge". Please do not stop, as a much travelled human being who is struggling with how to tell his stories in song, is learning much from you.

Thanks from the bottom of my heart.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: BSeed
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 10:47 PM

Barbara (and Shambles), It moved me--and I'm sure hearing you sing it would move me to tears. Songs are meant to be sung, just as poetry is meant to be read aloud. I'm sure that your connection with Sara comes through strong and clear to people who hear your inflections, your timbre, and everything else you (we) use to communicate feelings. And as for guy things and girl things, I'm glad there are such things in music: "Stand by Your Man" would be a very different song sung by a man; a woman would have a hard time with "The Green, Green Grass of Home." I still can't get used to our male lead guitarist singing "Wildwood Flower." --seed

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Dave T
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 11:31 PM

Barbara,
Perhaps what Peter is talking about is that he feels there should be more of Sara's life told in the song. Maybe relating some of her joyous moments along with some almost forgotten aspirations of Lisa's could be used to contrast the overall bleakness amd hopelesness of the situation. Take a look a Gillian Welch's lyrics, particularly "Annabelle". If you don't have them, let me know and I'll post them. Personally, I don't find anything wrong with the direct approach. What works for some songwriters doesn't work for others. If it feels true to you as a writer and performer, that will come through.
Dave T

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Jeff in Louisville
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 11:38 PM

BSeed: Actually, I should think it would be a VERY powerful statement should a woman, in fact, perform "Green, Green Grass of Home"...

I am a blues guitarist and songwriter myself. This is my most recent blues:

I can't rise on the sun because the night is where I live.
I can't rise on the sun because the night is where I live.
I'm blind in daylight but I see what the night can give.

Where the corner meets the river in the needle's eye of night.
Where the corner meets the river in the needle's eye of night.
I'm looking for laughter even if it's gone and died.

I sit on the river and keep an eye on the moon.
I sit on the river and keep an eye on the moon.
If it falls in the river I'll sweep it out with my broom.

I got a stale cigarette, I light it just to see my way.
I got a stale cigarette, I light it just to see my way.
If I can find a tabernacle, I'll hide my face, and pray.

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Barbara
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 12:36 PM

I like it, Jeff. All the edges. Basic 12 bar? or something else?
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Barbara
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 12:40 PM

and, yes please, Dave, I'd like to see the Gillian Welch. Don't know her stuff. Enlighten me. B* Barbara

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: BSeed
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 04:27 PM

Sure, Jeff, a woman could sing it, just as Joan Baez could sing "I Am a Rake and a Rambling Boy," but it's still a guy thing, a song from the point of view of a man about to be hung, thinking of home, his parents, and his girlfriend (whom he may have killed). A man could also sing "Stand by Your Man," but he would sound hypocritical and self-serving, if sung as if to his own woman, and patronizing and sexist if sung as a father or uncle or priest or other male advisor, or it could be sung satirically, like Kinky Friedman singing "Get Your Biscuits in the Oven and Your Buns into Bed." --seed

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 08:10 PM

Seed You again, make a very good point when you say "songs are meant to be sung" etc. I think we have to remember to be careful when we post or write about the words to songs here. For what we see is like half a pair 'pants'(trousers), just words without the music or the performance.

I can think of many 'great' songs, the words of which if posted here, would look very ordinary on their own. I'm sure, like you, that if could see Barbara performing her song we would have more to think about and feel than ever the words on their own could contain.

As for the sex thing, we are different! Let's all rejoice in that.

Can I come out from under the table now?

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Barbara
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 10:47 PM

Sure, Shambles. Give you a hand up?
Here are some other things I know about Sara. Do any of them add to the song? She had silver blond hair and blue eyes, she was shy and small underweight and clingy, what psychologists call 'failure to thrive'. The pictures were snaps from the Easter picnic at our house two weeks before. It was that first warm spring sunshine and the kids were running in the sprinkler, but we had to take turns carrying Sara, she wouldn't be parted from the people holding her. There is one picture of her, in the sun by herself and the wood porch in shadow behind her, that I always see when I sing that verse. She was 3 days short of two when she died.
I like Sydney Carter's Silver in the Stubble, but I would never sing it, it isn't my voice. Sometimes you can sing, or even write something from the perspective of a member of the opposite sex, but it still has to fit you.
One of my pagan friends says a singing a song well is the same as raising power with a spell or casting a glamour.
To me that means becoming what I sing, and showing it to the people listening. Telling the story, not performing. A kind of egoless place. Does that make sense?
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: Lyr Add: I'M RESPECTABLE NOW
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 06:05 AM

As it was me that started the 'woman/man' thing I was very interested in the views about singing and writing from the others point of view. I have written a song (again one not to be taken too seriously) from a woman's point of view, only to have woman friend dismiss it with, "a man would write a song like that". The implication was that it was a typical man's view, which of course it was, how could I do otherwise? I am a man and that was the whole point. Her reaction was interesting and I will post the words here, for your reaction and in an attempt to redress the balance with the one about the guy standing at the altar. (Why did she still want to marry him anyway?).

I'M RESPECTABLE NOW

I don't want you, around here any more
I'm respectable now
I know you're the cat, that, got my cream
But I would have spilt it anyhow
Don't come sniffing around my back door
I'm respectable now

You walk with one foot in the gutter
With your twitch, your limp, your lisp and your stutter
With your bad breath and your belly swelled with beer
I once thought you were the 'bees knees'
Guess I was just easily pleased
Thought all of your 'bullshit' was sincere
Please forgive me if I sound bitter
But when you ran off with the baby-sitter
You left me and took all the things we had
It was a blessing in disguise
I saw the light and I realised
The future, without you didn't look too bad

I don't want you, around here any more
I'm respectable now
I know you're the cat, that, got my cream
But I would have spilt it anyhow
Don't come sniffing around my back door
I'm respectable now

My beau's have now got suits on
They don't make love with their boots on
They don't just want my body they want me
They got this thing that they call foreplay
They don't just grab me in the hallway
And bend me down so I don't block the TV
You thought you were Errol Flynn
But you made love like Rin-Tin-Tin
But a German Shepherd was better looking than you
And when it comes to your 'pride and joy'
You were hung like a 'Dinky Toy'
And you sure played a lot with it too

I don't want you, around here any more
I'm respectable now
I know you're the cat, that, got my cream
But I would have spilt it anyhow
Don't come sniffing around my back door
I'm respectable now

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 09:12 AM

Barbara,

I believe that your statement makes ultimate sense. My delivery of a song is affected enormously by whether or not I can sink into it and become the person delivering its message.

My opinion of "Sara's Gone" is found in the tears on my face. In my untrained opinion, it is powerful and relates the full tragedy of people ill prepared for the trials and challenges of marriage, let alone raising children. It seemed to me to tell of all the victims in this, from Todd and Lisa, to Sara, to David and Nessie. And it made tears run down my face as I imagined the scenes. I do not agree that Sara needed anymore developement in the lyric. I could see every two year old child I have ever known in her, and I think that is the point. I would love to hear you sing this, but I am afraid that I would have to be in a dark corner, as it would likely move me deeply to see you sing it with the feelings that you have about it.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Peter T.
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 10:37 AM

Dear Barbara, Thanks for not taking my head off -- not only is putting a song forward inherently emotional, but the subject is maybe even more emotional.

Everything you write in your description adds to the song. Can some of it get in the song? I think your description of Sara at the Easter picnic is unutterably moving -- maybe to reapply what I said, she was already gone before she was gone. I think it is interesting that your description, even as prose, has such a powerful undercurrent to it -- but you see that picture and what it meant when you sing, and we don't. Given that you have cut something that is hokey, you obviously know where the dangers lie -- it would certainly be nice to have a verse with some of those details in it -- you have such an eye for that.

There are problems with that, of course: one of the good things about the song as it stands is the claustrophobia -- you are in this tight house, and kids get crushed, and no one is supposed to know, etc. But ....

Also, it is interesting that in your notes there is a movement back and forth about whether the song is in part about your relationship to Lisa. In your first reply, I got a sense that the song was about Lisa. Maybe that is part of the puzzle -- is the song in mourning for Lisa, for Sara, or for the whole situation? I don't say it can't be about all of them, but it may be that weighting it towards Sara is what you are trying to avoid, because the song is about the fact that "Sara is gone" as a result, and not about Sara. In that sense, staying outside the characters is right, and staying away from saying more about Sara is also right. So your original impulse is right.

Anyway, I apologise for general impertinence -- it is hell to write, to get the balance right, and everything. I am still haunted by your description, though. This is a terrible question to ask, but I will ask it anyway. It is not clear from your description if Sara ran through the sprinkler by herself, or had to be carried or led. If she couldn't even run through a sprinkler by herself, that is a horrible detail that no one could think up.

Yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Peter T.
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 11:03 AM

I lost a sentence in there. I wanted to point to the sequence in the last verse where you hold on to Lisa and want to hold on to what is now beyond hands, and the passage in your description about carrying Sara -- I was struck that this was the physical expression of the helplessness people on the outside feel, who can do so little.

Yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Barbara
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 11:55 AM

Peter, you don't live around kids? A two year old is a toddler. Most kids walk around a year, but don't like to do it much till 2 and a half or three or sometimes later. Sara could walk; didn't want to. She wanted to hold on and be held. (I'm still saying, God, I didn't know how much and why). The older kids ran through the sprinkler carrying her on a hip, she liked that. She weighed practically nothing.
And, yes, it was that picture of reaching out to hold something that I couldn't that made a basis for the song. So many appalling things happened. At the family gathering afterward, I asked David if he liked the family where he was staying (the CSD picked the older kids up at school and put them in foster homes)He looked up at the male social worker who never left his side, and said, "I can't talk about it."
Yes, Peter, it is hard to write, and hard to get critiqued. Finally, this is all about that same bottom honesty. What is true, and how do we speak that truth?
I appreciate the people here who have taken the time to think about this on this thread and speak.

Shambles, I'll get back to your song in a separate post.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Barbara
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 01:19 PM

CAUTION, GRAPHIC CONTENT.
Shambles,
It's pretty rough speaking for a woman, we tend to be more of suckers than that, but there was only one place that jarred me, and that was the line about the dinky toy and playing with it.
It struck me as false because 1. in my experience, size matters to you guys a whole lot more than us. Maybe there is some really basic thing about external/internal dichotomy that is related to one's organs, do you think? Think about it. Size is going to feel more important to the inserter. In lovemaking, each sex changes size, and what happens if things are working, is you get a match. I'm sorry if I'm getting too graphic here, but I was just realizing what some of the roots of each side's performance fears are. (Ours have more to do with lubrication).
And, 2. If he's as bad as she says, she's probably grateful when he beats off. Anyway, he probably hides that he's doing it, too.
In regards to the unwilling guy at the altar, you asked, why is she marrying him, and that question didn't even occur to me. I assumed he hadn't told HER what he was saying in the song, 'cause guys like that don't. I assumed he'd said to her the things one is supposed to and now he felt trapped.
Is it a blues?
I'll post a blues that's similar in tone in a bit (It's on the other computer, and I have to go and retrieve it) called "I Want My Money Back" by Saffire. I'll put it on a separate thread because this one is getting long.
And is anyone unhappy about our talking about individual songs in this thread? Should we start a separate thread?
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Peter T.
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 01:43 PM

Dear Barbara, it is pretty weird having these different responses to different things going on, so maybe a new thread is a good idea -- though I have probably oversaid anything I had to about the song. Not to worry about kid credentials! I have been around a lot of kids! and I have known a lot of runners and crawlers and older brothers and sisters running through sprinklers while toddlers shriek along and try to catch up. Obviously 2 is borderline. I was just wondering what it all looked like, well, you know, children in the sun and then going back into the dark.

Yours, Peter T.

Subject: Lyr Add: SIZE DOESN'T MATTER (Bert Hansell)
From: Bert
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 02:41 PM

I'm sorry I can't resist it. Remember you guys started it.

SIZE DOESN'T MATTER
(Bert Hansell)

When I was a Kid, we went for ice cream,
My sister had vanilla and I had a raspberry-ripple-rocky-road-chocolate-fudge-sundae-dream.
I looked at hers and I started crying,
When I saw that her ice cream was bigger than mine;

But Ma said....

"Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter
It's the flavor you see
Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter".
Well it matters to me.

When I went to school, I tried hard to please
But my sister got A's while I got mostly D's.
I took my report home for mother to see
I remembered the ice cream and what she'd said to me;

So I said....

"Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter
For I tried hard you see
Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter".
She said "it matters to me". *Thump*

I started courting when I was sixteen,
The girl next door was the girl of my dreams;
But she got real mad and she called me a louse,
When she caught me staring real hard at her blouse;

She said....
"Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter
If you really love me --
Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter".
Well it matters to me.

When I got a job I worked hard every day,
Hoping to see an increase in my pay.
Though every pay check I got was so small
My Boss said "Don't worry, don't worry at all

Because....
Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter
And I'll make you VP
Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter".
Well it matters to me.

The girl next door was the love of my life,
she finally consented that she'd be my wife.
How well I remember the night we were wed,
How she raised her left eyebrow as I climbed into bed.

She said....
"Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter
It's how you use it you see
Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter".
Well it matters to me.

Copyright Bert Hansell, 1998

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Pete M
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 02:54 PM

Barbara,
I've been following this thread, much in the same vein as Mick, as song writing is something I am of course interested in, but which seems a black art to me; just can't seem to get my head around the essentials.
I'd just like to say how much I admire your ability, and courage. Courage to write the song about Sara, and even more so to post it here for critique when you are obviously so close to the subject matter.

Best wishes

Pete M

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Barbara
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 03:01 PM

Oh, lovely, Bert! What's the tune?
I still think if a woman wants to insult a man, she's much more likely to say something along the order of 'you can't get it up' than 'your weinie's too small'.
But it doesn't detract from that being a nifty song. You just cranked that out now? If so, I'm green with envy. But thank you for sharing that.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 03:29 PM

Thanks Bert

That's about the size of it.

Maybe this whole thread should be done in song?

Barbara

No it's not a blues, it's a bit like the feel of Bob Dylan's 'She belongs to me'.

Hey, at least I feel the need to duck, when I make what could be thought of by others as 'sexist' remarks, " Guys like that" indeed! Your turn to go under the table.....*Grins*.

As for the 'size' thing. Of course it appears to matter more to us than to you, which was the whole point. In the song, she was trying to 'kick' him where it would hurt most. In fact, it was, I thought, my clever way of saying that she thought he was a W****R!

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Bert
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 03:44 PM

I wrote it back at the beginning of the year. It just seemed appropriate for that point in the discussion.
Next time I get with Max I'll get him to record it for me and put it on line.

I love Sara's Gone but I don't think I could sing it, It's much too powerful for me.

I like The Shambles songs as well, I don't know as I fully agree with all the sentiments but they would be fun to sing if the occasion was right.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Barbara
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 04:10 PM

Yah, my turn under the table, Shambles.
I should have said, when *I* feel that way about someone it is because I haven't been honest about my feelings, and so am feeling trapped by the other's expectations.
It isn't a guy thing, it's a chicken thing. When I feel powerless, I complain to others. Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 04:20 PM

Thanks Bert

I don't know if I agree with all or any the sentiments expressed in the songs but does that matter?

As a man happily married to a wonderful woman for over twenty five years I can't say that any of the thoughts expressed in those two songs are from my own direct experience.

I used my imagination to think what it would be like to be in those positions and wrote from that point of view. They were supposed to be fun. Surely we all sing songs that we don't have first hand knowledge of, or totally agree with the sentiments expressed.

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Bert
Date: 06 Nov 98 - 08:39 AM

The Shambles,

That explains things. Those words didn't seem to match your usual buoyant mood.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Dave T
Date: 07 Nov 98 - 01:40 AM

Barbara,
I posted the lyrics to "Annabelle" by Gillian Welch under the thread "Lyrics Add: Annabelle (by Gillian Welch)".
Dave T

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Nov 98 - 08:19 AM

Barbara

I found the Zeke Hoskin, Lyrics site that you suggested HERE

Well worth a look, the lyrics do seem to stand up quite well without the music.

Great stuff. I thought that 'I've Forgotten The Chords' was super and given our exchanges about the 'man/woman' thing, I really liked Bicycle Fish!... We may not like it much sometimes but we do desparately need each others point of view.

I was suprised that I didn't see 'ol' Zeke when I was under the table though?

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Barbara
Date: 07 Nov 98 - 10:59 AM

Ah, Shambles, can you imagine a more boring place than one where we all were PC and did and said what we were supposed to?

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Maj Marvelous
Date: 26 Jun 99 - 07:26 PM

I first started song writing in 1960 and have had gaps and songs off and on since then. Many times a phrase or thought will come to me in near sleep. If I don't get it rolling right then I sometimes lose it by morning. If I remember and write down a phrase or a couple of the words I can recall them later. Lately a couple of my songs have really made a hit with my country music friends. They want to record them and put out a tape. I am reluctant to do this as I am not confident that my songs are worthy of such endeavor. I do enjoy doing them myself, but only with my singing group and after a couple of practice sessions so people can support my efforts.

Times change and old songs get older and tired. I think anyone that feels they can write a song, should do it. You never know where it will end up.

Good thread

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Mudjack
Date: 26 Jun 99 - 09:00 PM

Refreshed and a welcome site.Thanks shambles. Major Marv... All the workshops I've attended, The most consistent advice has been you have to believe in the efforts you put forth. I can't seem to ever complete a song, I get great hooks or choruses then falter flat on my face. So consider this advice from a great workshop attendee, believe in your work and keep moving forward. Mj

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Apr 00 - 02:16 PM

Would someone puhleeze start a new thread on this subject? It's fascinating. Ebbie

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Amos
Date: 08 Apr 00 - 08:18 PM


 

Part 2 continues this thread over here.

Thar ye go!