Stop Press Palm Tree Update

Subject: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:45 AM

Just had a meeting with Jan Wilson (Leader of Sheffield City Council) Mark Gibbens (SRFN,EFDSS) came along too. Basically it was a very very constructive meeting. She took on board myself and Mark's comments about the nature of sessions and accepted that they were participative and were of benefit to the community, . Such sessions she concurred were not for profit. She is going to try to get some agreement with the legal section not to enforce them (hooray !!). However she might not win the argument but will give it a good try !!! In terms of the Palm she re-iterrated what others have said and thought she wouldn't be able to turn a 'blind eye' as the action had begun. So the landlord may have to get a licence we'll see. The main thing is that bringing it to the eader's attention may,or should, stop the PEL police enforcing further action against other session or pubs.As I said to Mark @I think we've headed them off at the pass'

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:50 AM

Well done. Let's hope it works.

Cheers
Sarah

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: JulieF
Date: 27 May 04 - 09:15 AM

Here's hoping . I'm tired of being itinerant.

Julie

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 May 04 - 09:57 AM

That sounds good.

Perhaps you could point her to Weymouth and Portland Borough Council and they can work together on finding a solution. It will help when the officers state that every other LA is using the same interpretation. My Council have gotten themselves into rather mess with this interpretaion, and this may help us all, if your Council can see the mess they are getting into.

However, it must be recognised that the Council turning a 'blind eye', to the Palm session or any other is NOT and has never been an option...........(even if they have done it).

Even if they should now insist on a PEL for the Palm Tree, and it sounds like they are going to (and I am not sure why), the Council do not have to charge a fee. But they can certainly carry on enforcing the current legislation for conventional public entertainment and they can do this at the same time as enabling sessions. They just have to investigate and find a way that these activities are NOT considered by your Council, as the local licensing authority, as licensable public entertainments.

Until they can find a way to do this (and it will take a long time) - they should allow the status quo and the sessions, to continue. There is little point in them finding a way and finding that there are no sessions left to enable.

I think the larger question however, is who is in charge? The elected members of your Council - or their paid employees. If the leader of your Council is in agreement with you - then she will have to make sure her officers do as the elected members instruct them to, and find a way to enable these activities now. It now becomes her problem to do this.

You can tell her this when she comes back to you and tells you how difficult it is and how sorry she is that she cannot help. As I am sure she will...Sorry to sound so downbeat, but there have be so many false dawns.

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 May 04 - 10:04 AM

See the following for background.

Palm sesh update

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 27 May 04 - 10:11 AM

I asked about allowing and the status quo but she couldn't give us the blessing to do that. I think Dave (landloord) may have to start an application with regard to the Palm. The most important thing is that it should have halted further action and she took particular interest in making sure the South Yorkshire carols are safe.

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 May 04 - 10:52 AM

Sorry but I can't see any way that other local sessions can be enabled, if they insist that the Palm Session is NOW required to pay for a PEL and more importantly, that this session will continue to be prevented if they do not apply.

If it is unsafe without additional licensing to hold your session now, it was also unsafe when your Council placed the public at risk and failed in in their satutory duty to insist on a PEL for 3 years. You say that it was advertised, so in effect this illegal activity was being brought to their attention every time an advert appeared, for all this time.

Have you asked why they failed to protect the public, and why they themselves been in breach of 'Sch. 1, s. 12(1)(b)(i)', Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1982' for so long?

Having enabled this session for so long, it matters little to this aspect, if they now rush to insist the Palm Tree obtain a PEL because the session is unsafe without it. They have been and are in breach of the law. They are going to look very silly to the watching media if they decide to prosecute the Palm Tree now........Ask them what is the safety concern that make the activity unsafe at this point without paying them for an additional licence, and enables them to prevent the public's freedom of expression? What has changed then, for the law has not and the cover given to ensure the public's safety via the Justice's Licence and its safety inspections and other measures have not changed either.

Council's can claim not to have noticed unlicensed venues but it is difficult to do this with much credibility, if the session has been advertised openly for 3 years (or indeed for any period). I really think that rather than just letting LAs strangle us with this legislation, it is time that we used the same legislation against them (as a bargaining position anyway).

Remenber that is is always fear of this, that the officers use to justify their actions, as the law giving them no choice. Well under this legislation, they do not have a choice and if they fail to act, when they are made aware through advertising of unlicensed activities, they are in breach of this same legisation.

This long-term breach of the law by them, may just focus the Council's attention on finding that sessions generally and the activity they have openly permitted for 3 years, is not really licensable public entertainment after all. And that they are 'off the hook'.

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 May 04 - 11:04 AM

I was just remided by this of an old Shetland tale. They was a chap carrying home over his shoulder, an otter that he thought was dead. The otter woke up and decided to sink its teeth into the chap's behind.

It was then a question of who was going to let go first.

Perhaps the otter had the slightly better bargaining position?

I suggest then that it may be best then to try and make sure that you have your teeth stuck firmly into the Council's backside - and not the other way round?

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 28 May 04 - 05:31 AM

I think at this stage rather than go on a full frontal attack we need to at least see if Jan is as good as her word. Believe me I can and will fight when necesesary most people who know me know that, on this occasion we have highlighted the problems and we can hope that there is some resolutions.

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 04 - 12:49 PM

reason at last!!

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 04 - 05:53 PM

Of course I do not know all the local details or those of your meeting so my thinking is based on my experience over the past four years, but not just locally here. I hope that you are right to place all of your faith in your Council leader.

However, I have had many such words from many councillors including the Chairman of the Licensing Committee, and their officers are still preventing sessions here without PELs.

I fear that you and us all ARE under full frontal attack and because of this, I just do not see any way forward, if she is insisting that the Palm Tree session can only be enabled at this point by obtaining a PEL and will continue to be prevented without one.

The session really does not need an addional licence to ensure the public's safety. I fear that once you allow the officers to establish this at the Palm Tree - THEY CANNOT GO BACK, or use a different interpretation elswhere. They will fear that the Palm Tree licensee will take them to court, if they do not treat all the licensees holding sessions, the same.

If they are still insisting that it does and before they do, I feel that you would need to find out from them, what the specific safety concern presented by this activity in this venue, that cannot be dealt with via the existing Justice's Licence.   

This you can do independently of the licensee. They have to state the grounds on which they are preventing the public's right of freedom of expression. Just the pub needing an additional licence, is not enough.

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 May 04 - 04:26 PM

Hi Jim,

It seems to be good news and that there is some pressure on the council to show some sense. It is to be hoped they regard the session at the Palm as qualititavely different from the music in (say) Trippets (rock band/music till late/dozens of people).

Would you be kind enough to relate what she said about the carols?

Dave

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 02:22 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 04:17 AM

I mentioned my worries about carols, also mentioned that Mr Blunkett and Helen Jackson were attenders (just for political brownie points) she nodded as if she knew what we were talking about but didn't comment apart from taking on board our fears

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 05:52 AM

Have just had the following letter from Jan Wilson in which she has enclosed a copy of a memo to Sheffield's Legal Dept it reads :-
I have read the correspondence between yourself and Mr McDonald regarding the above (The Palm Tree) and recently met him to discuss the matter.
I would be grateful if you could give further consideration to how the Council might best meet both it's statutory duties and it's policy to promote and encourage community participation in the arts.
Having investigated the nature of the 'entertainment' it seems to me that it is of a wholly participatory nature. There are no commercial considerations (i.e. the 'performers' are not paid) and it , and other similar activities contribute to the well being of the city by providing a cultural link with Sheffield's past.
There does not appear to be any health and safety issues, there have been no complaints (to my knowledge) as there is no amplified music, and no large congregations of people.
I have been associated with community groups which have required a PEL, but as the activities are not commercial, the fee has been remitted. Perhaps it would be possible to consider a similar classification ?
I would be pleased if the Licensing Sction could advise how we might find a way forward.
Thank you for your help in this matter.

I think this is a positive move and will keep you informed.

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: John Routledge
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 06:41 AM

Jim - It doesn't come more positive than that!! Well done.

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 07:36 AM

awe shucks !!

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 07:57 AM

Excellent. MC you are a hero!

That letter gives everyone else a load more clout if it comes to having to fight licensing.

Cheers
Sarah

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 08:08 AM

All we'd need now is for her to lose this week's election !!! but I think it's fair to say we could and I stress could have the beginnings of some sort of strategy here. If we can get Sheffield to talk and take the lead (?) then there could be some light at the end of the tunnel. We may however need to have a proper legal definition around the issue of participative musicians using unamplified instruments. There must be some legal bods out there go on use your soliciting to help us !!!!!

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:01 AM

Unless you are prepared to go to court, there is is little point in forming a legal argument (under licensing law), for the officers will now just provide a different one, they already have. The only place this would then ever be settled is in court (and by then the new legislation would most probably be in effect).

The best chance, out of court is to inform and pressure the elected council members into instructing their officers to find a solution, where they can carry out their statutory duty but to enable sessions etc.

The new law is unlikely to be in when the Sheffield carols start up so a solution really must be found. And I assume that the Palm Tree session is still being prevented? There is the Human Rights Act that the Palm Tree participants could use.......

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:04 AM

Good news (for a change) – how refreshing! Fingers crossed, and well done to you and to Mark!

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:56 AM

Shambles whilst I understand what you are saying and that the course of action may be flawed in relation to the courts and interpretation of the law, I am merely trying to find some middle ground. I believe that what Jan is asking for could and only say could provide us (the folk scene) with some hope that our music is safe. Whilst I get your point about Human Rights I don't think at this time I want to alienate or harrass Sheff City Council to the point where they think we're professional loonies and dismiss us as cranks. We have made valid points to the leader and I think she should be at least applauded for listening and trying to help. It could be a smokescreen but I don't think it is. I believe it to be genuine and in broad terms supportive. So at this stage I'm not going on hunger strike (mainly cos I'd have to reprint my business cards !!!)

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 01:28 PM

I was just trying to answer your point about legal definitions etc. I was rather agreeing with the idea of using your elected members to make their officers find a solution, rather than a legal one.

However, the participants whose right of freedom of expression has been prevented at the Palm Tree do have the protection in our courts, of the Human Rights Act and can take this action, without requing the licensee to do it. Using this (or finding out the details of this)is hardly going to portray you as cranks. It is true that it tends to be used by the very poor, like new-age travellers or the very rich, like Madonna, but any possible legal threat is very effective at getting the official mind to focus.

There is nothing wrong with you getting legal advice on this kind of action locally, especially if you have a session participant who would qualify for full Legal Aid. You do have these rights and just as importantly your council must recognise them and should not (and indeed cannot) prevent them, where there are no grounds for them to do so.

Any solution that is arrived at must be seen to follow the law and it is easy at this point for the officers to blind your leader with all sorts of legal gobble-de-gook. The option of not charging a fee for sessions is certainly one that is open. But this a less than satisfactory and short term solution and it does rather accept the principle that pubs with sessions are unsafe without additional licensing. Which many of us do not accept.

I my view, it is Sheffild City Council (and others) that are doing the harrassing, you are simply trying to defend your activities, which you have every (legal) right to do. I take your point and admire your wish to be seen to be reasonable and I hope that your council's officers appreciate this. But it must be recognised that they care little about your sessions, I feel that a way will still need to be found of making them care enough (in some way) or to find a solution, of giving them a problem that they have to address.

It is as well to have a plan B. But not perhaps hunger strikes! The details of the legal advice on the Human Rights angle are posted here somewhere. If you can't find them - and wish to - just ask.

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 05:06 AM

I'd probably get more support if I did a 'beer' strike. The landlords in this city would go bankrupt.

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 05:09 AM

Sorry forgot to say that I've spoken to little Dave(the landlord) who's just back from holiday. I updated what we has done. We've agreed to leave things till after this week's elections, let the dust settle and then approach the council to see if we can continue as we were or if the Palm needs to buy said licence either way be prepared for a grand 're-opening' of the sesh a.s.a.p.

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 05:11 AM

refresh tis election day

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 05:36 PM

Have we had a copy of the reply to Jan WIlson's letter?

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 04:19 AM

Not arrived yet !!!! Perhaps the dust needs to settle after t'elections

Subject: RE: Stop Press Palm Tree Update
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 08:42 AM

And all this time your session IS still being prevented, on the dubious and unproven grounds that it has suddenly and overnight become unsafe for the public, without the licensee paying the Council for an additional licence.

Perhaps you can establish from them, what the specific risk to public safety is that prevents this activity from continuing, at least while your Council deliberates (if indeed that is what they are doing)?

As it has been safe for so long, under the protection of the justice's licence, what is the specific safety factor that this licence's inspections and safety measures cannot now deal with your activity and which can only be dealt with by the additional licence?