BS: Fuel price campaign

Subject: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: C-flat
Date: 28 May 04 - 07:04 PM

I was interested to receive this in my e-mail inbox today......






Subject : Campaign to Reduce UK Petrol Prices - a rip-off at 80p/litre

We are going to hit close to 89p a litre by the summer. Want petrol
prices
to come down? We need to take some intelligent, united action. Philip
Hollsworth offered this good idea:

This makes MUCH MORE SENSE than the "don't buy petrol on a certain day"
campaign that was going around last April or May! The oil companies
just
laughed at that because they knew we wouldn't continue to hurt
ourselves
by refusing to buy petrol. It was more of an inconvenience to us than
it
was a problem for them.

BUT, whoever thought of this idea, has come up with a plan that can
really
work. Please read it and join in!

Now that the oil companies and the OPEC nations have conditioned us to
think that the cost of a litre is CHEAP at 77p -80p, we need to take
aggressive action to teach them that BUYERS control the marketplace not
sellers. With the price of petrol going up more each day, we consumers
need to take action. The only way we are going to see the price of
petrol
come down is if we hit someone in the pocket by not purchasing their
Petrol! And we can do that WITHOUT hurting ourselves. Here's the idea:

For the rest of this year, DON'T purchase ANY petrol from the two
Biggest
oil companies (which now are one), ESSO and BP. If they are not
selling
any petrol, they will be inclined to reduce their prices. If they
reduce
their prices, the other companies will have to follow suit.

But to have an impact, we need to reach literally millions of Esso and
BP
petrol buyers. It's really simple to do!! Now, don't whimp out on me at
this point...keep reading and I'll explain how simple it is to
reach millions of people!!

I am sending this note to a lot of people. If each of you send it to at
least ten more (30 x 10 = 300)... and those 300 send it to at least ten
more (300 x 10 = 3,000) ... and so on, by the time the message reaches
the
sixth generation of people, we will have reached over THREE MILLION
consumers! If those three million get excited and pass this on to ten
friends each, then 30 million people will have been contacted! If it
goes
one level further, you guessed it..... THREE HUNDRED MILLION PEOPLE!!!
Again, all You have to do is send this to 10 people. That's all (and
not
buy at ESSO/BP).

How long would all that take? If each of us sends this email out to ten
more people within one day of receipt, all 300 MILLION people could
conceivably be contacted within the next 8 days!!! I'll bet you didn't
think you and I had that much potential, did you! Acting together we
can
make a difference. If this makes sense to you, please pass this message
on.





I can see the potential in this sort of organised action but, given that the inflated price of fuel in the UK is due in the main to taxation, can this work?

C-flat.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: Blackcatter
Date: 28 May 04 - 07:18 PM

People are lazy and prone to habit. Boycots on this sort of scale rarely work.


It's a shame, but that's the way people are.


Civil disobedience might help - get people to start protesting outside the gas stations of BP Esso - You'd be surprised how many people will drive by to fill up somewhere else.

It's a good way to get the word out about the boycot.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 04 - 07:32 PM

It sounds good, BUT... You need to take into account the fact you will be sending this notice to the same people at some point- otherwise, how many would you have notified in say, 2 weeks?

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 04 - 07:54 PM

How do you campaign for fuel prices to be raised?

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: kendall
Date: 28 May 04 - 08:29 PM

I never buy Exxon anyway.
Over here we have something called gasbuddy.com it gives the lowest price in any given region.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: Gypsy
Date: 28 May 04 - 09:37 PM

So, it finally got over to the UK, huh? Sounds like the same verbiage that we get over here, and i bet that it is just about as effective.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 04 - 04:31 PM

One guarantee: If you don't try it won't work.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 04 - 06:03 PM

Another: If you don't try, guarantee you won't succeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: Strick
Date: 29 May 04 - 07:06 PM

I don't understand. Petrol was around 80p a liter when I was over there the last couple of years. Here it was $1.40 a gallon. In the mean time it's gone up to $1.95 in my area.

Hasn't it gone up over there, too? I know US refining capacity has declined over the last 20 years while demand has gone up dramatically, but I assumed it was affecting other countries the same way it's affecting us.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: Gareth
Date: 29 May 04 - 07:07 PM

Simple Kevin, Campaign for more "intervention" in the Middle East - Oh sorry - does that put you in a dilema ?

Gareth *BG*

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 May 04 - 07:10 PM

Ha. (sorry)

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 30 May 04 - 05:08 AM

Stop complaining Strick, compared to the UK you're stll getting it for less than half-price. Maybe you guys need to start campaigning for cars that do better than 20 mpg! :0) :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: Bill D
Date: 30 May 04 - 12:18 PM

how do you campaign for fewer people in order to reduce demand?

Sales of bigger vehicles are already way down...we will have a LOT more smaller cars in the next few years.

(and don't forget, in the US, the average trip length to GET anywhere is many times longer than in the UK...it takes days, not hours for serious travel, which means hauling goods and visiting friends in another state can be a VERY expensive situation.)

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 04 - 09:17 AM

sell the car... that is the best boycott..I did and what a lot more change is in my pockets..

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: Wolfgang
Date: 31 May 04 - 12:29 PM

How do you campaign for fuel prices to be raised? (McGrath)

If you do not want to follow Gareth's advice, here is another: Waste fuel by driving instead of walking or taking the bike and buy bigger cars that are not efficient.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: Wolfgang
Date: 31 May 04 - 12:40 PM

How do you campaign for fuel prices to be raised? (McGrath)

If you do not want to follow Gareth's advice, here is another: Waste fuel by driving instead of walking or taking the bike and buy bigger cars that are not efficient.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: Gypsy
Date: 31 May 04 - 11:13 PM

Strick, i'm sorry, but in my area, premium is going for almost 3$. regular is 2.50. So, do what we do. Drive only when absolutely necessary, have the smallest engine that fufills your requirement, etc. I have a small, 4 cylinder van that gets us to gigs, farmers market, hauls tools to construction sites (along with instruments for the gig we do BEFORE construction) and it works great. Really frosts me to see the HUMMER in front of my job...........that NEVER leaves pavement! And o course, the spiky heels that ride it.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 09:10 AM

The car I drive is a Diesel engine. All the diesel fuel I buy is described as "Low Sulphur" and does not smell like diesel fuel used to smell.
The Reason -
It is all "Biodiesel" which is manufactured from Oilseed Rape - (or rapeseed oil). That is the reason that there are millions of hectares of the bright yellow stuff planted across the country. This diesel fuel has NEVER seen an oilfield. It has NEVER been near an oil pipeline or tanker.
The production of it is not affected in any way by wars in the Middle East, or the bank balances of OPEC, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, or anybody with a supply of crude oil.

I don't know what the profiteering bastards are trying to charge for it today -I've not been in the car! but there is no way they can justify ANY increase in Biodiesel because of Petroleum Oil prices.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 09:22 AM

Fuel costs 26p a litre to produce, and sells at about 84p at the moment, and going up. Rate of tax is something like 74%, who says that socialist governments are governments of the people. Not by the people, and definitely for the fat cats.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 09:32 AM

So from the campaign, everybody writes letters to the thirty or so, telling them to boycott Esso/BP garages. Doesn't hurt you because you could still go to another petrol station owned by a different company - you are out to "hurt" the "big boys".

Like the "Don't buy petrol today" thing the "big boys" will still laugh at you -where do you think the other petrol stations get their supplies of petrol?

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 10:56 AM

its a big rip off, they should make hamster powered cars, Nissan built a prototype one a few years ago.
I can't be arsed to make a link, but put "hamster powered car" into your searcher to find details of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: s&r
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 11:25 AM

There you are jOhn

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: C-flat
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 11:25 AM

"Like the "Don't buy petrol today" thing the "big boys" will still laugh at you -where do you think the other petrol stations get their supplies of petrol? "

That's a fair point Teribus, although there's far less profit in wholesaling than in retailing and they've got a lot of retail overheads to support wether or not they're selling any fuel.
I suppose the real target for any campaign in the UK should be the government who are taxing fuel excessively. I accept the arguments for driving fuel prices up in order to make us use our cars less, there are many benefits to be argued, but I don't believe that is the motive of recent successive governments, who see the motorist as a cash-cow, there to be milked.
If we could all use public transport everyday, and stop smoking, we would all be fitter, our environment would be healthier and our economic masters would be in panic!
C-flat.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 11:58 AM

thanks s r.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: harvey andrews
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 07:08 PM

Vote for higher income tax, much fairer system, and get cheaper fuel. Vote for low income tax, unfairer system, and get high priced fuel. The tax for all those things the state is expected to provide, health service, schools,police, army, planes,ships,..etc etc.. has to be gathered. Brits vote for low income tax everytime....so the fat cats pay less and the poor cats pay more through indirect taxes. It's the nation's choice, but the nation's people don't seem to understand how things get paid for!

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 04:38 AM

"Vote for higher income tax, much fairer system, and get cheaper fuel. Vote for low income tax, unfairer system, and get high priced fuel. The tax for all those things the state is expected to provide, health service, schools,police, army, planes,ships,..etc etc.. has to be gathered. Brits vote for low income tax everytime....so the fat cats pay less and the poor cats pay more through indirect taxes."

Seems reasonable, but that is not the way it would work in practice. One thing to remember. What the "state" provides with the revenue it collects has a cost that never decreases, never remains constant, it only ever increases.

Take the proposal outlined in the first sentence. The assumption that such a system would produce cheaper fuel prices is based on what exactly? In Norway a country with a strong "social" conscience, they do vote for higher taxes, or at least they do not complain when they are imposed, their tax system is judged by many to be extremely fair, their fuel prices are roughly the same as those in the UK, although Norway exports far more than the UK.

The "fair" system proposed by Harvey, is judged to fair by whom? Make it too stringent and the money moves out of reach. With that movement of money, follows people and jobs - is the country better off? - is it in a position to gather increased tax revenue to provide the services required? - No it is not, it's in far worse shape but the costs remain and the burden of tax on the poor is likely to increase. By the bye, everyone pays indirect taxes, rich and poor, each according to their needs, or budgets. The fact that there are always more "poor cats" than "fat cats" automatically means that the bulk of the revenue derived from indirect taxes always comes from the majority, i.e. the poor cats - there's more of them.

High taxes tend to act as a brake on incentive, low taxes mean that there is always more money in circulation, there is more being spent, therefore, it is better for the economy as a whole, and the government gets it's revenue in indirect taxation. But while it is doing that jobs are created and more people are earning.

Now Harvey, if I remember correctly, lives in France. A lot of people who work in the same industry as myself, also lifted and shifted to France in the 1970's and 1980's. They did not intend to work in France, they intended to work outside metropolitan France. The advantage being that if they worked more than 180 days outside France, they were only liable for their local taxes not national tax, they seemed to thrive on it, all the advantages of the French funded social system - but paying the absolute minimum towards it's costs.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 05:03 AM

the same goes regarding junk mail.
I return ALL my junk mail but what I do is swap the contents of the envelopes.
Now the same theory works here in that the more people who return the junk the quicker the companies realise it is NOT FINANCIALY WORTH THEIR WHILE and stop sending it out.
There is the rather nice part of it which is that the companies get charged for the mail and if the letter is a bit on the heavy side they get charged even more.

SO SEND BACK YOUR JUNK MAIL.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: harvey andrews
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 06:38 AM

No I live in England and pay my taxes. I don't buy the high taxes kills incentive arguement. A percentage of gross national product is collected as tax, so a higher collection from direct taxes would mean a lower percentage collected from indirect taxes, therefore the cost of fuel could be lowered if the tax collected from it needed only to be 50% as opposed to the present 75%. As to lower fuel prices being a good thing or not is another arguement.
It's all a matter of choices.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 06:50 AM

"could be lowered" IF the additional money was not just sucked into the system. In general, once a tax is established, it persists and even increases, regardless of the "need" for it. Spending is ALWAYS based on the expected income, NOT the needed expendatures.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 07:15 AM

Teribus, you're spot on in one thing and way off in another:

Spot on: The oil companies are not fazed by threats of boycott. In their experience such things do not affect them greatly. I know - I work for one. (By the way, C-Flat, the net margin for supply to other companies is actually higher than the retail margin, precisely because of the high taxation. Retailing fuel is no big earner, in fact without the shop sales its return would be a lot less than inflation. Were it not for the need to keep in the "public eye", many of the retail stations would lose their franchise).

Way off: Harvey lives in Shropshire, having recently moved there from Staffordshire, having moved there from Birmingham some time ago. No tax exile he, he certainly walks as he talks. And his "assumption" that higher direct taxes reduce the need for indirect taxes is a tenet of economics, not his own idea. The Norway example does not disprove the rule, it simply means that the government there has chosen not to reduce indirect taxation, but invest a lot more than the UK in infrastructure.

Which leaves us - where? Bugger me if I know, but Harvey's ideas are the most attractive to me. The difficulty is individual conscience (or lack thereof) and/or greed, otherwise translated into the well known "I'm all right Jack" and "I'm looking after my own, sod you" attitudes.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 07:44 AM

The Gross National Product (GNP) is the value of all the goods and services produced in an economy, plus the value of the goods and services imported, less the goods and services exported.

Now according to Harvey's reckoning if you increase taxes you influence all of the first part, have no control over the import part and you obviously have an effect on the export side.

Your higher taxes increase costs, this must be reflected in the price of the goods and services you produce. Compared to goods and services being provided elsewhere you are now less attractive, even to your own domestic consumer base. They import more, buying less of the home produced goods. In turn because your higher taxes have increased your costs you cannot export as much as you did before.

Now you tell me Harvey are we in better shape than before or are we poorer off. Is the Government going to take in more revenue or less - whether it is in direct or indirect taxation it doesn't matter a damn.

By the bye, well said beardedbruce, you at least, have a handle on how things actually work out in practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 08:17 AM

I am not an economist, Teribus - you've just exhausted my knowledge gained from "Running the World Economy for Dummies" ;-). There are indeed many levers, and governments have no control over some of them like imports - other than imposing tariffs of course, which leads to other problems. That's why I always harp on about individual responsibility, in this and other threads - too many people wash their hands too easily of it and rail at governments (which they helped to vote into power anyway).

In a world where pinning blame on others is a popular pastime, those that truly walk their talk - whatever their political and other beliefs - stand out. If only more would follow their examples...

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: harvey andrews
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 08:19 AM

I'm not talking about increasing taxes, I'm talking about the system of collection. What is done once the system is in place is up to the politicians and therefore finally, to the voters. The British people don't like income tax and don't seem to understand the way indirect tax works. All they express is their unhappiness at paying at all!
Then they demand top class services. Basically it comes down to voter ignorance and newspaper scaremongering. If you want an example of that see the Daily Express front page today. How many people now believe we'll have a three day week and petrol rationing tomorrow?
No doubt everyone soon will be driving round with full tanks again and filling up every fifty miles...and who will we blame for this? The papers? No, the politicians.
Sometimes I despair. No wonder a third of us want to emigrate.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 08:32 AM

And you'd better believe it that the oil companies are even now scheduling extra deliveries for Thursday and Friday and Saturday, to satisfy the abnormal increase in demand fuelled by newspapers - "... and a little boost in sales wouldn't do us any harm...".

Heck, if a shepherd sees a lot extra sheep in his pen, he doesn't throw them out - he feeds them.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: GUEST,Redhorse at work
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 08:38 AM

The British people don't understand how direct taxes work either. When the blessed thatcher transferred taxation from income tax to national insurance they thought she was giving them money.(for the benefit of non-british, national insurance is another form of income tax but a lot more regressive, but it isn't called a tax)

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 01:01 PM

Hollow be her name... though she was outdone by Blair's increase of the NI.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 01:48 PM

This is old and never works.   In the 70's they had the same thread and called it "To Hell with Shell" and basically argued to not buy gas from Shell.   Didn't work then.   Won't work now.

Economics 101- if you want to lower prices you need to increase supply or reduce demand.   Increase supply by new drillings, or alternative energy.   Reduce demand by buying higher mileage cars, or increased public transportation.    Good luck with any of those suggestions- you'll need it.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: C-flat
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 06:37 PM

El Greko, I'm sure you're correct in your facts when you say that wholesaling fuel is more profitable than retailing, but my point was really that the cost of operating the retail sites are significant and if those sites aren't generating income, will become a heavy burden to the biggest of companies.
They couldn't just withdraw from the retail market that they've invested millions in and concentrate their efforts on wholesale supply only.
C-flat.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 07:30 PM

It depends on the country, C-Flat. In most countries the oil companies don't own the petrol stations, they simply award franchises and some financial support for infrastructure (canopies signage etc), but not all of it. The owner has to foot the bill for most of the investment, and accordingly has a much larger share of the income than the oil company whose franchise he/she holds.

This is why you do in fact see closures of whole networks happening overnight. In Belgium (the most "over-pumped" country in Europe, our company literally closed down its network in a week. Some franchises were sold on to Q8, but most were simply "paid off".

In the UK there is a mix of ownership. Some companies own their own stations, but most of the "biggies" don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 08:19 PM

The bottom line, which we so easily forget is that burning fossil fuels threatens to cause catastrophic climate change, even within your lifetimes, and far more so within the lives of children being born today.

The only scientists you can find who disagree with that, are the equivalent of the tame scientists the tobacco companies used to trot out to deny that smoking killed you.

If increased oil prices means we cut down on burning fossil fuels, and pushes us towards being able to use alternatives - eg fuels made from oilseed rape, electric cars powered by electricity from wind power and tidal power, for example - it's a good thing.

The nuisance of higher costs at the pump and higher prices for stuff delivered by lorry are marginal compared to the predictable consequences of global warming.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 10:01 PM

Noddy, how does the company who sent the junk mail end up paying for you to send it back? I'd like to try that.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel price campaign
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 07:14 AM

From my personal point of view the fuel prices can hardly be high enough, for all the reaons McGrath has listed. And for one additional: More independence on the energy sector from the mostly very unstable oil exporting countries. Higher prices will lead to quicker development of alternative methods of energy production.

This is one of the rare points where I find myself in agreement with Al Qaeda (though for completely different reasons). They sell right now the increase of oil prices as a victory due to the recent murderous attack on their unofficial webpage.

Their reasoning is that the riches of the Arab world are wasted at low prices. But they are stupid. Higher prices, in the long run, mean less profit from selling oil for cheaper alternatives will be found. That, by the way, is the reason why the sheikhs in Saudi Arabia increase the production at this moment in oder to keep the prices low. They know that high prices, in the long run, are against their interests.

No, I'm not looking forward to the next big Al Qaeda attack. The price in human lives and/or oil spill will be too high for that good side effect, higher oil prices, I agree with.

Wolfgang