BS: Reagan Rapture!

Subject: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Deckman
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 09:08 PM

Just now at the supper table, I think I invented a new phrase: "Reagan Rapture." At least I don't remember hearing it any where else.

I explained to "Bride Judy" that us folks in America are so hungry to find a president to look up to, to admire, that we'll even try to reserect, or claim, admirable qualities that are quite questionable.

Whatcha think? Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 09:15 PM

Bob, it's certainly alliterative.

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 09:58 PM

Reagan rapture revulsion! How about hero hysteria or leader longing.

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 10:25 PM

This is revisionist history and spin doctoring worse than I've ever seen it perpetrated. The man, Reagan, with his nice guy personna, single-handedly began the destruction of most that Roosevelt did to help the lower classes in this country. (And don't be fooled---this nation IS a class society---and it always has been that. By destroying the wimpy and white collar Air Traffic Controler's Union's strike, they began the demolition of labor unions in the U.S. --- It was the beginning of a process that has been refined, tweaked and rammed through the heart of this nation by Bush and Rumsfeld -- using National Security--a real problem--as the reason.

I do believe, with all due respect, that in the rotunda and on Friday, they ought to lay the man out face down -------- so the media and everyone can kiss him goodbye.

Art Thieme

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 10:47 PM

LOL!! Why, Art...you ARE a creative soul!

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 10:50 PM

Can we bring back Harry Truman somehow?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Deckman
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 01:17 AM

WHAT!!!! Is Harry Truman missing too? Sheeeuh! Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 03:56 AM

I think you're on to something, Deckman. Even over here in the UK, they keep referring to this "well-loved President" and I have to shake myself to remember that they're talking about Reagan.

We are so deficient in heros. The celebrity mania of today shows how starved we are to want to look up to someone, and to that end, people are willing to even create false memories so we can pretend that we knew someone of greatness in our lifetime.

Sad, and as far as Ronald goes, totally misrepresented in this fashion.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 04:11 AM

Come, on Art, don't be so selective in your remembrance of the man's tenure in office.

At the start of his Presidency the US was thought by many to be heading for a major recession, that some thought would increase in magnitude to become a second depression - he turned that round.

More than any other world leader he did more to end the "Cold War" and set in train major disarmament.

Whether you believe polls or not, on leaving office after completing his second term, he was the most popular President in the history of the US - 61% approval - If he could have stood for a third term, he would have walked it.

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Deckman
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 07:21 AM

And yet another wonderful memory: he closed all the mental hospitals in the states and turned the mentally ill out on the streets. Many are still wondering around without medicine or treatment. Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: kendall
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 07:38 AM

Clinton could have been elected to another term too.

Here again, you people who give Raygun credit for killing communism and ending the cold war, just how did he do that? And, how does that compare with what Lec Walesa, the Pope, Mr. Gorbechev and American TV did to end that silly system? Communism began to die the day it was born, and it happened on Reagan's watch. He was probably asleep, but he still gets the credit. Incredible.

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 08:45 AM

Teribus, you are wrong again as usual.

Reagan was not the most popular president in US history. Just as one example of a comparison between him and another very popular president, he and Clinton were equally popular in the polls. But as others have noted elsewhere, popularity doesn't equal competence, much less greatness.

There was a serious recession on his watch in 1982, Reagan just went for an entire year without acknowledging it.

His administration was one of the most corrupt in history in terms of indictments and convictions, pardons, immunity given to the guilty for testimony (and I haven't even gotten to Iran-Contra yet).

His administration just happened to be the beneficiary of being in power at the time Gorbachev seized control of Russia and the Berlin wall came down. The Reagan administration didn't do anything differently than previous administrations had vis a vis the Russians, they just took ALL credit for winning the Cold War.

That isn't what the revisionists are saying this week, of course, but that is the reality. But Reagan's legacy will be that he actually figured out how to be a shifty salesman for the rich using television as his preferred medium for propaganda. Buying advertising goes around press scrutiny. If you do a good job with the advertising, especially telling people what they want to hear, they will buy anything.

That is the Reagan legacy. The robbed and pillaged the nation, and made people feel good about what they were doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 08:49 AM

Oh and about that recession that Teribus claims never happened, here is an excerpt from the PBS website The American Experience, on the Reagan recession:

"The United States was experiencing its worst recession since the Depression, with conditions frighteningly reminiscent of those 50 years earlier. By November 1982, unemployment reached, nine million, the highest rate since the Depression; 17,000 businesses failed, the second highest number since 1933; farmers lost their land; and many sick, elderly, and poor became homeless.

The country lived through the recession for a full year before Reagan finally admitted publicly that the economy was in trouble. His budget cuts, which hurt the poor, and his tax cuts, which favored the rich, combined with the hardships of a recession, spawned the belief that Reagan was insensitive to his people's needs. (Although it was a 25% across-the-board tax cut, those people in the higher income brackets benefited the most.)

As economic hardship hit American homes, Reagan's approval rating hit rock bottom. In January 1983, it was estimated at a dismal 35 percent. Having failed in his promise to deliver economic prosperity, Reagan's reelection in 1984 seemed unlikely."

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST,Terri Byerly
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:16 AM

My dearest Art,

As you said, "it's hard to be a people pleaser sometimes", yes, it is difficult if not impossible to please all of the people all of the time, and this goes for a presidential administration also. We are being forced to remember all the "noble" things Reagan did, and that's swell and all, but as you pointed out, there was more to the "Reagan Years" than just tea with Gorbachev, the feeble attempt at slowing down the arms race with the Nuclear Forces Treaty, after which he turns around and initiates SDI (star wars) at a cost of a trillion bucks, the gift of arms in trade for hostages (yes, I know they say "sold arms"), and shoot oneself in the foot deals with Ollie North.

My point is, yes the man did good, and he screwed up too. So have I and so have you. I respect the good and dirty mouth the bad. It's the nature of the public beast to do so. Does the deserve the hype? Maybe not. But maybe to a degree. Matter of personal opinion for everyone I suppose. I personally think this particular former Commander in Chief does deserve a certain amount of respect BUT I will take off my rose colored glasses (which I hate to do), and think on all he did, right and wrong.

I just think it's wise to, when remembering the bad to remember the good. And when we remember the good, remember to remember the bad.

Terri

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:20 AM

Ah, but Guest, in 1984 he was re-elected. How and why did that come about? During his two terms in office Reagan's administration did create employment, something like 16 million jobs, he reduced inflation to isignificance, and managed to turn the economy round.

Please do not think that a recession happens overnight, it is a gradual process, caused by a number of contributary factors. If you believe otherwise you are being very naive.

So, according to Kendall, it was Lec Walesa, the Pope, Mr. Gorbachev and American TV that brought about the end of Communism, the collapse of Soviet Russia and the end of the "Cold War"? Kendall you should read and discover where "Solidarity" got the funds to carry out its campaign, oh, yes they came through the Vatican, but that is not where those funds originated, not by a long shot. Reagan was fortunate in the choice of the Kremlin when Gorbachev was elected and suceeded Andropov - Gorbachev did not seize power in Russia or anywhere else - he was however a realist and extremely pragmatic. American TV, no doubt viewed by millions in Soviet Russia achieved what exactly in the downfall of communist Russia, Kendall?

Between the end of the Second World War and the 1980's the fact that the US Navy operated an extremely capable strike carrier fleet damn near brankrupted Soviet Russia five times in their attempts to find a way of countering that means of world force projection. They never did manage to do that. Then along came the Strategic Defense Initiative (Star Wars), personally I believe that was the biggest hoax ever perpetrated, but Communist Soviet Russia swallowed it and realised that they just could not compete any longer. More steps were taken with regard to nuclear disarmament under the Reagan administration than any other. An on-going process that was only halted with India and Pakistan acquiring nuclear weapons capabilities within months of one another.

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:27 AM

GUEST,Terri Byerly:

I don't think you realize that you are not allowed to think that way here.


Teribus:

"Then along came the Strategic Defense Initiative (Star Wars), personally I believe that was the biggest hoax ever perpetrated,"

Hardly. As a research program, it was very usefull, and more pure science was funded under it's auspices than you would believe. I know- I worked on a number of those programs. LACE, RME, Clementine, MSTI-3. For all that some may wish otherwise, the best way to get funding is to show how it will help the nation's defense. Look at most of the medical advances of the last century.

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 01:20 PM

The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones.

Thus says Antony of Julius Caesar. But, true to form, in the case of the "Teflon President," this seems to work in reverse

Granted, when a former president of the United States passes away, one should mark the occasion and perhaps remember his deeds and accomplishments, if any. One tries not to speak ill of the dead; however, it does little for the cause of truth to try, by rewriting history, to turn a former president, or any person for that matter, into some kind of god.

For the past few days, practically every time I turn on the radio or television, it's been wall-to-wall Ronald Reagan. Eulogies, paeans, and reminiscences pour forth incessantly, overshadowing all other news. All day long yesterday, even on NPR, that supposed bastion of the liberalism, and last night on The News Hour with Jim Lehrer on PBS, that well known purveyor of left-wing propaganda, there was talk of naught else. God knows, after hearing what I was hearing on the supposed "liberal media," I didn't have the stomach to see what they might be saying on Fox News! One would think that the man had been seen regularly walking on water. During the past few days, listening to "the news" has been like swimming in syrup.

I agree with Art Thieme's indictment above. In addition, I would really like someone to explain to me exactly how Reagan, seemingly single handed to hear people speak of it, defeated Communism. The way it seems to be presented, when Reagan intoned "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" it was as if he raised his rod, cried "Open Sesame!" the wall crumbled before the thunder of his voice, and Communism vanished in the wind. Without going into Iran-Contra and a multitude of other things, one should point out that it is true that Reagan cut taxes. On the rich. But he also raised taxes. On the poor. But he didn't call it "taxes" he called it "revenue enhancement." And once again, the Teflon President got away with it!.

I could go on and on, but I'm feeling a bit "sweeted out," as if I've been force-fed several pounds of cheap candy.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 01:57 PM

You liberals are hilarious.    You give me the best arguments whenever I have debates with clear thinking people.    Like Tom Paxton said "sometimes you don't have to saturize a person, you just quote him directly"   The rhetoric is so far out there, it is the best ammunition I could ever have.   

Bill Clinton never won 50% of the vote.    Reagan captured 49 of 50 states.   Thats an ass whippin.    There are 10 hour waits to visit his coffin to pay last respect.   Historians vote him one of the best 10 presidents in history.   The public voted him the greated president in history (per time magazine)

In quotes this week, the current president of Nicaragua praised him for bringing democracy to his country which has continued to vote pro USA democracy ever since.    The president of St. Lucia praised Reagan for defeating communism in the Carribean and preserving democracy there.   Of course, people in this forum know more about those countries than their leaders do.

The argument that defeating Communism was just a coincidence is ignorant and not based on any fact other than wishful thinking and revisionist history.    Why was the USSR so agressive in the late 70's when Carter was president and destroyed only a few years later.   Maybe the incrase in military budget by Reagan.   Maybe Star Wars.   Maybe the refusal to sign the nuclear arms treaty which stunned Gorbachef (and the world) Maybe the constand voice calling communism the evil empire.   Maybe they were afraid of Reagan. (Iran sure was relseaing the hostages on the night of his inaguration)   Maybe all of those.    To say it was coincidence is like saying folk musis owes nothing to Pete Seeger because it was inevitable it would happen anyway.   

To say the economy was just a coincidence is just as foolish.   Under Carter there was huge unemployment, 17% interest rates, high inflation, and gas lines.   The 1980's was labeled the "decade of greed"   You couldn't call it that unless the economy was successfull.   And it was successfull FOR ALL PEOPLE.   Look it up.   All segment of society benefitted.   The lowest fifth of people benefitted as much as the highest fifst.   I know that most of you revisiionists won't acknowledge that, but as Yogi said "you could look it up"

To all my liberal friends- I feel your pain this week in all the praise of Ronald Reagan.

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: DougR
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 02:06 PM

Wow, Larry K., you're a breath of fresh air!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 02:19 PM

Smells more like a beer fart to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 02:20 PM

People believe what they want to believe, and in politics, that is rarely the facts.

From the US Office of the Federal Register (they certify the election results):

1976 - Carter 50.0%, Ford 48.0%.

1980 - Reagan 50.9%, Carter 41.1%, John Anderson 6.6%.

1984 - Reagan 58.8%, Mondale 40.5%.

1988 - Bush 53.4%, Dukakis 45.6%.

1992 - Clinton 42.93%, Bush 37.38%, Perot 18.87%.

1996 - Clinton 49.24%, Dole 40.71%, Perot 8.4%.

2000 - Bush 47.87%, Gore 48.38%, Nader 2.74%.

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 04:00 PM

I did a little checking:—

Ronald Reagan left us a national debt of about $3.5 trillion or $3,500 billion.

The national debt when Ronald Reagan took office was about $1 trillion. That included all the debt run up during the Revolutionary war, the Spanish-American war, the Civil war, World War I, World War II, the Korean war, and the Vietnam war. In other words it took the United States from 1776 until 1980 or more than 200 years to accumulate a national debt of $1 trillion.

It took Reaganomics only eight years to increase the national debt from $1 trillion to about $3.5 trillion!

[While cutting social programs, incidentally. Any amount that social programs begun in the 1930s by FDR and subsequent years (e.g., LBJ's "War on Poverty") added to this deficit was minuscule, and complaining bitterly about "entitlements" the way Reagan and other conservatives did (and do) is like a person running up hundreds of thousands of dollars of credit card debt and then complaining that being asked to put an occasional dollar in the poor box is the cause of their financial troubles]

Given the spending habits established by the legacy of Ronald Reagan and resumed (after Clinton balanced the budget) by his disciple, George W. Bush, the national debt is now about $5.5 trillion!

The interest costs alone on the national debt now run about $250 million a year! When Ronald Reagan took office, they were about $53 million a year.

A true American hero.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 04:06 PM

Terri---I just e-mailed you again. Sorry if I'm too strident.

I'm not into writing all that out here in the thread.---But...

Basically I said that I thought the USSR threw out the best of equalizing and humane factors of socialism with the washwater that was totalitarianism and communism. The latter was the real enemy. Then the right in the USA took credit for it all and declared the war was over, that Reagan won it, socialism is now discredited and now it was OK to run with the cash like Enron and Arthur Andersen right over the backs of the poor and universal health care and Social Security---all the while thumbing their capitalistic corporate noses and giving 'em the Bronx cheer.

Terri, I think that's sort of what I said. R.R. started it and G.B. and cohorts are running with the ball.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: beadie
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 04:08 PM

From 1981 through 1988, the clothes had no emperor.

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 05:09 PM

Larry K---" Historians vote him one of the best 10 presidents in history..."

right, and "Doctors recommend" product "X"....WHICH historians?

You can find today, in many countries, people still praising Adolph Hitler...I suppose there are those who admired Genghis Khan for bringing "multi-culturalism" to the far East!

Ronald Reagan was a MOVIE actor, who had honed the skills of being convincing and was evidently a very charming guy in person. He also had VERY narrow, conservative viewpoints which he thought he could just IMPOSE on the rest of us....he also showed, possibly due to his life portraying fiction, a lack of comprehension of what his ideas meant in reality! There were a group of people who viewed Reagan as the perfect 'front man' for a reactionary agenda, just as some now use G. Bush for the same reason.

I only wish I could live long enough to laugh at you when **"Historians"** finally sort out all the damage done under Ronnie's reign, and he takes his place in history alongside Warren G. Harding, Richard Nixon and Andrew Johnson.

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 05:45 PM

Adding my humble opinion to this thread--with which I agree with most postings---except for Larry K, etc;

All this hoopla only proves one thing to me---an actor with a personality can make you forget what corrupt and incompetent things really transpired. Better analogy is the magician who has you fooled all the way.

Air Traffic Controllers of the era must be totally bereaved, those who lost jobs in the Reagan depression, and those who are still repaying the debts incurred by that administration are also, I am sure, greatly bereaved at this loss.

What I do not understand is this panapoly of events---JFK was a sitting pres. and was assasinated so this honor was to be expected.   FDR was a sitting war-time pres., and Lincoln also and assasinated sitting Pres. Reagan has been long gone from the scene and, to me, this a totally out of place and a great inconvenience to the masses. Much as the media spins it the only advantage is that many people will be getting a day off with pay---at the government's expense. Another great legacy---more debt.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST,Terri Byerly
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 06:02 PM

Gosh, all I said (okay, all I meant) is I try to look at the positive results and negative results of any administration. Really, that's all.

(I keep forgetting to sign in, so I'm in as "GUEST Terri Byerly")

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Burke
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 06:15 PM

What do you remember about the funerals of Truman, Eisenhower or Johnson? I remember Truman's being on TV, but little else. I recall Nixon sounding lots better in his eulogies than I remembered as well.

At least the NYSE has a tradition of closing:
On April 27, 1994, the exchange closed for Nixon's funeral. Similarly, the NYSE closed on Dec. 28, 1972 for the funeral of former President Harry Truman and less than a month later on Jan. 25, 1973 for the funeral of former President Lyndon Johnson. The exchange was closed on March 31, 1969 for the funeral of former President Dwight D. Eisenhower.

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 06:44 PM

Sounds like the alliteration of this thread title should be Reagan Redux. Again we pay homage and forget what was behind the smoke and mirrors---is it possible there is another actor coming down the old pike from Calif.?   


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 07:09 PM

Guatamala and Salavador, anyone???

Dead squads???

Liberals, trade unionists, catholic nuns and just about anyone rounded up for public executuions...

That's what I rememeber most about Reagan.

And illegal wars (Iran/Contra).

And his voodoo economics, his "just say charge it" way of running the show, the cleanup afterwards...

I don't get it???

Like who was this other Ronald Reagan guy that folks now remember so fondly???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: kendall
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 07:27 PM

"I have never killed a man, but I have read a number of obituaries with great relish." (Irving S. Cobb)

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 07:33 PM

Ah---now that is humor I can truly appreciate.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 08:05 PM

Quick, someone help me with a campaign to reject the Reagan currency! Should we just tell anyone who hands it to us that we don't consider it "real" currency and to give us something else?

I know we are supposed to say only positive things about the recently departed, but I must echo the thoughts of some of the others that this is just an over-the-top undeserved love-fest.

Others have well-documented some of his misdeeds, evil deeds, and just plain massive short-comings, and said them better than I could. I will not relist them. I will, however recount some very personal experiences.

I was a bicycle courier during most of his tenure, and I watched as the count of homeless on the streets steadily increased as a direct result of his "economic" policies and his closing of the mental hospitals. On the day of his second innaugural, it was one of the coldest days on record, ever, in DC. I was on call, but I only had a few runs that day. I had on all of my bestest warmest clothing against the weather and I spent all my time time in the warm office between the few runs I had that day. I wouldn't wish that day on anyone.

On that day, there were several deaths among homeless people. At this time when so many are recounting what a wonderful president and human being he was and insisting that the rest of us so honor him, I remember that day as if it were yesterday. None of his defenders has yet indicated what a grand and glorious thing it was that so many mentally ill or down-on-their-luck were thrust out onto the streets to die of exposure. I implore them to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Deckman
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 08:43 PM

Thank you "saulgoldie" ... for a while there, I thought I was the ONLY one that remembered that reagan put the mentally ill out into the streets. Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: MAG
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 10:51 AM

Nah, I mentioned it on the other thread -- the song one.

I used to have the postcard of Ray Gun with six guns blazing on my staff bulletin board at work on North Avenue in Chicago. When the board in its infinite wisdom closed my little branch, my staff fought over who got to keep that post card.

Yeah, that library was 4 blocks from Cabrini-Green. I remember when my shelver quit to go into the army. Kids lined u-p around the block to apply for her part-time minimum wage job. Things were just peachy keen then. We're headed back to the pre-New Deal days when people starved to death.

I bit my tongue at the Reagan fans who fail to grasp that dennnnnnnnial is not the ol' river in Egypt.

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 10:58 AM

From 1981 through 1988, the clothes had no emperor.

Beadie,

That was the funniest line I have seen all week!! Bravo!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 11:00 AM

The real trouble with unions was that they turned good Democrats into Republicans as soon as they had some money and a few investments. They forgot real quick why their fathers had needed a union in the first place. Then they never even noticed the huge role absolutely dumb fecking luck had played in their rise to glory. Worse yet, they took personal credit for the billions they were able to steal and run away with after being slapped on the wrist by the judicial/penile-----er, penal system. All of that while the guy that stole 3 loaves of bread and got caught 3 times goes to prison for life.----What a travesty is the legacy of this man in our loud and dumbed down in-yo-face Married-With-Children/reality TV America.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST, curious of Richmond
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 11:27 AM

Who did Ronnie oust as the 'historians' greatest prez?'

Will they turf him in time?

Is the 10-hour wait to see his coffin longer than the one that lines up for Lennin's tomb?

Will he get more pilgrims per year than Karl Marx?

What is the capital of Bolivia?

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 12:44 PM

I'm not surprised at the adulation and the outpouring of grief, but I am shocked at its witlessness. I do believe that a good many of those people are the same ones who would cry over "True Romances" (Isn't that the name of the old smarmy magazine that purportedly brought us 'real life stories' of love and tragedy?)

OK, so that explains the long lines waiting to view Reagan's coffin (!!) but what about the people who espouse the view that he was a great president? I suspect that, by and large, they are the 'John Wayne' fans who long for a simpler age when black and white were clearly defined, pardner.

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 01:01 PM

Or they are on the payroll (knowingly or not) of the Bush Fox machinery of PR war.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 01:16 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 01:18 PM

What do you remember about the funerals of Truman, Eisenhower or Johnson? I remember Truman's being on TV, but little else. I recall Nixon sounding lots better in his eulogies than I remembered as well.

Interesting you should ask that. Of Nixon's funeral, I remember seeing part of it on TV. When the 21 (or whatever number) cannon salute was fired off, I remember hearing dozens of car alarms suddenly go off in a nearby parking lot in response. Seemed kind of perfect to me somehow.

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: beadie
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 02:02 PM

The Gallup organization just released a compilation of approval ratings for presidents back to Truman. These are averages of the Gallup data collected on each president during the course of his term rather than a retrospective query of "who was most popular?"

          Approval rating

Truman         45%
Eisenhower    65%
Kennedy       70%
Johnson       55%
Nixon          49%
Ford          47%
Carter         45%
Reagan         53%
Bush I         61%
Clinton       55%

This is taken directly from info on the Gallup website.

Clinton and Johnson more approved than Reagan. Interesting, no?

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 02:14 PM

I don't have my glasses on, but it looks like Reagan and Clinton are tied at 55% each.

These averages don't say much, however. But then polls don't say a lot to begin with. These solitary numbers can't reflect highs and lows and incident related spikes up or down. A flow chart of ratings might be interesting, and would probably look like the teeth in a carpenter's saw.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 02:19 PM

Put your glasses on, Stilly. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Deckman
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 02:24 PM

No, leave your glasses off Maggie, you look better!! Besides, it's easier to think that way (hee hee) Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: beadie
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 02:43 PM

Stilly River Sage:

Hush! Don't disparage polls anywhere that Mr. Rove might hear you.

Polls are, indeed, useful for limited purposes. I am, however, more inclined to place whatever credence they deserve in an independent organization's product (like Gallup) than in a poll done by or at the behest of a political party or interest group. Gallup has been asking essentially the same questions about every sitting president at least as far back as those reported above. And, looking at the Gallup methodology, these are not an average of one or two data points over the term of office. The questions are presented fairly regularly and responses are set up as "flow charts." I am not certain that the ancient archives are available on line, but more current data can be accessed without too much difficulty.

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 02:51 PM

Stilly River Sage may look better with her glasses off (What?!), Deckman, but does she see better?

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Teresa
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 02:53 PM

Hmmm, the reaction to Reagan's death is very interesting in light of a book I'm reading; Orson Scott card's _Speaker for the dead. It is a science fiction novel that features a character who speaks the plain truth (good and ill) of the lives of those who have died ... with very emotionally-charged results. It would be interesting to hear a speaking for Ronald Reagan. :>
Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: Reagan Rapture!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 03:21 PM

Okay, I went back. Those 3s and 5s look similar without the lenses to help. But I read it this time without the glasses also. Go figure--my eyes get better after a while without the glasses unless I'm tired. . . I didn't feel like scrounging around the house to find my office glasses (they only work for close up reading and the computer screen) and I had taken off my "regular" glasses because they give me a horrible crick in the neck if I use them at the computer. Aging eyes. It's the pits.

Well, I must say I'm glad to see Clinton come out ahead, even if I still don't think that a single number really tells us much. There are general vaguarities and ways to slant popularity polls during all of these administrations. Every generation has it's way of skewing the numbers. There are aspects of self-fulfilling prophecy after a while that lead the gullible to the polls.

SRS