War Mongering Songs

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Gareth
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 07:19 PM

Somewhere in the back of my mind there is a vague song about this "9 Yards" but where and when I do not recall.

But a bit of Maths - US of Fghters WWII (Persuit =P) fired an 0.5 inch round, given the chamfer on the cartridge casing, and the joining links I would suspect One inch or possibly less per cartridege

Thus 1 yard = say 40 rounds.

9 yards = 360 rounds

Now a quickish Internet search Click 'Ere and scroll sugests that the P47 had an amunition capacity of 350 Pounds per gun.

Mathematics suggests that 8 x 360 = 2880 pounds or nearly 1.25 imperial tons. Hmmm ! I dont think so, this represents a substantial percentage of the aircraft weight.

Cut and paste from link -

empty weight            2,600 kilograms    5,730 pounds
   loaded weight          3,540 kilograms    7,800 pounds

Leaving no weight for Pilot, Gasoline, Oil, Oxygen etc


But 350 rounds suggests about 9 yards.

I do not claim that this origin of the phrase is correct. But it's room for thought.

Gareth

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: DonMeixner
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 06:37 PM

My Dad built P-38's and P-39's during the second war. He always said that Nine Yards was the length of a belt load of air craft machine gun rounds.

Don

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 11:12 AM

Rapaire - couldn't agree with you more.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 08:39 AM

In which case, Teribus, the "Star Spangled Banner" fails to qualify as a war-mongering song since it was written DURING the attack on Ft. McHenry in Baltimore Harbor during the War of 1812.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 04:36 AM

LadyJean - 25 Jun 04 - 01:24 AM,

Although "Twa Recruitin' Sergeants" is definitely a song about the Black Watch the chorus of the song puts it after the period your re-enactors are interested in.

"And it's over the mountains and over the main.
Through Gibraltar to France and Spain.
Wi' a feather in your bonnet and yer kilt aboon yer knee
Enlist ma bonnie laddie and come awa wi' me."

The Black Watch, or 42nd Regiment of Foot, did not confront any Spanish Forces until the French Revolutionary War with Britain (1793 - 1802).

Rapaire - 25 Jun 04 - 01:57 PM,

"God Save The King (Queen)" - A warmongering song? Hardly, it was written at the time of the '45' Rebellion - i.e. Britain was under attack. I have always thought that the activity of 'warmongering' involved the element of provoking and actively pursuing picking a fight - not that of attempting to inspire defence against an attack.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 08:12 PM

"The whole 9 yards" is an expression that has generated a spate of speculative fakelore. The numbr of yards in a bolt of brocade. The number of yards (cubic yards) commonly carried in a Redi-Mix cement mixer. any others?

And to return to war mongering, take a look at "Universal Pacifist" in DigiTrad. Politically incorrect, but well constructed.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 07:37 PM

That's very interesting about the 9 yards, Gareth. I think I'd always imagined it some sort of baseball or football obscure Americanism. Is the machine-gun explanation generally accepted? Yards seems an odd unit to measure the length of ammo belts in, but maybe 27 feet is a bit unwieldy.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 07:27 PM

The whole 9 yards has nothing to do with football or other sports. As Gareth says it's the typical length of a machine gun belt. I'm not sure if the expression is unique to P-47's. It may go back to WWI war birds.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 05:53 PM

Do you have the song Gareth?

Peter

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Gareth
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 05:43 PM

IIRC nine yards was the total length of the amunition belts in a P-47 Thunderbolt.

Any 'Catters know better ?

Gareth

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 05:23 PM

I vaguely remember a warsong from World War II that had the phrase "Give 'em the whole nine yards." Does anyone here know that tune? Does anyone here know what that means? I think it is a reference to American football, but you have to go the full ten yards in four plays to keep the ball in that game.
Peter

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 04:39 PM

While speaking of Irish warmongering songs:


The time has scarce gone by boys, two hundred years ago,
When Rebels on old Derry's Walls their faces dare not show;
When James and all his rebel band came up to Bishops Gate;
With heart and hand and sword and shield we caused them to retreat;

Chorus
Then work and don't surrender but come when duty calls,
With heart and hand, and sword and shield - we'll guard old Derry's Walls.

The blood it did flow in the streams for many a winter's night,
They knew the Lord was on their side, to help them in the fight;
They only stood upon the walls determined for to fight,
To fight and gain the victory and hoist the Crimson high;

and

We soldiers of Erin, so proud of the name
We'll raise on the rebels and Frenchmen our fame;
We'll fight to the last in the honest old cause,
And guard our religion, our freedom and laws;
We'll fight to the last in the honest old cause,
And guard our religion our freedom and laws;
We'll fight for our country, our King and his crown,
And make all the traitors and croppies lie down.

and the more recent

Sunday morning go for a ride
Took along my Colt .45
Went down to Derry, just for a lark
Knew I'd get a tadg before dark....


The warmongering was also in the hands of the Orange.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Grab
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 03:37 PM

Fair points, alanabit and Greg. Yes, it is promoting the might of a nation that *can* kick ass if it has to, it's just not promoting the kicking of any particular ass, or the act of kicking ass. :-)

Re the "all thine shall be the subject main" though, at the time Britain really was setting itself up as the policeman of the world, so I read that more in the lines of pacifying and de-pirating. Although I guess "pacifying" is a moot point - more than a few "destroy the village to save it" exercises...

Thing is though, the Brits back then really did see Britain as the world's policeman, in exactly the same way as many Americans think of the US today. The parallels are (ahem) unparalleled. ;-) As more than one person has pointed out, these kind of songs tend to come from the people sat safely at home, so they're a good indication of what the national mood was at the time.

Graham.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Displaced Camelotian
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 02:34 PM

And two of the most stirring: "Lock the Door, Lariston" (rec. by the Corries) and "O'Donnell Aboo" (rec. by Clancy Bros & Tommy Makem).

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 02:34 PM

Rule Britannia is pretty gung-ho all right, a bit of a technicality to say it is not actually about war. It is couched in fiarly self-defense sort of turns, but the arly part of the song is basicaaly saying that no tyrants will ever succede in conquering Britannia,`because the navy will get the bastards before they get here. Which is a reasonable distillation of a thousand years of foreign policy, driven by the embarrassment of William the Conqueror's easy ride.
   BUt a little later in the song we can find the lines:
"All thine shall be the subject main
And every shore it circles thine".
Now, the "thine" here is Britannia, and "the main" is the sea.. There is no conceivable interpretation of this sentiment except the obvious: the author wishes Britain to conquer every bit of the world accessible from the sea(which, let's face it, is pretty much what happened in the century following the wirting of that song). I think it's a great song. But I have to add that that doesnt mean I literally think we should go out and conquer all the fuzzy-wuzzies again.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: alanabit
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 02:17 PM

Good point Graham, but I think it's a bit of a moot point as to whether "Rule Britannia" doesn't mention war. At the very least I would call it an anthem to Britain's naval power in a bygone age. The line about it being, "the dread and envy of them all," can be read as a hint of the consequences of taking too many liberties with the Royal Navy! Strangely enough, I like the song, though that may have something to do with my formative years at The Royal Hospital School, Holbrook and origins in a naval family. It has got a thumping good tune. I just find it a little embarrassing to hear it sung by football crowds, who usually seem unaware that the tide of history has turned a little!

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Grab
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 01:51 PM

Alanabit, that would be "seemed to like". Those songs are all very Victorian parlour songs, and of their time. Rather like the nasty little C&W song that came out not long after 9/11 promoting stomping the Ayrabs was very much of its social class (ie. dumb rednecks) and of its time. Thank God, I've not wasted brain cells remembering who wrote it or how it went.

Most English people today aren't fond of war and would rather not get dragged into any more. Incidentally, "Rule Britannia" is one of the rare songs glorifying a country *without* mentioning war.

My personal unfavourites are ones promoting bigotry against another country/race/whatever. "Come out you Black and Tans" is about as unpleasant as they come, but typical of the genre.

Graham.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Gareth
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 10:11 AM

Ooops ! I stand corrected over "Soldiers of the Queen". Appologies !

Gareth

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 09:52 AM

There's a bit of confusion here. If you're talking about songs that support an existing war, there are hundreds of thousands of them; songs promoting a war that isn't presently existing are rarer (and, IMO, more interesting).
            I've noticed that, quite often, the same people sang songs on both sides of the pro- and anti-war line.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Bert
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 08:01 PM

Acourse Warmongering is good or bad depending on which side you are on.

William Morris in 'March of the Workers' sings...

Is it war then will ye perish as the dry wood in the fire
is it peace then be ye of us let your hope be our desire
come and live for life awaketh and the world shall never tire
and the host comes marching on.

Subject: Lyr Add: LADDIES WHO FOUGHT AND WON (Harry Lauder)
From: Bert
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 07:45 PM

Harry Lauder sang



D
There's a dear old lady, Mother Britain is her name,
                G                   A7
And she's all the world to me.

She's a dear old soul, always the same,
      D          G       A7
With a heart as big as three.
                D
And when troubles and trials are knocking at her door,
       G                     A7
And the day seems dark and long,

Her sons on the land and her sons on the sea,
         D       G    A7
They all march to this song,

Chorus

D                                                
When the fighting is over, and the war is won,
                           G       A7
And the flags are waving free,
When the bells are ringing, and the boys are singing
D             G   A7
songs of victory
               D
When we all gather 'round the old fireside,
                                             A7
And the old mother kisses her son,
D                              G                  D
A' the lassies will be loving all the laddies,
                         A7          D
The laddies who fought and won.

Verse 2

We can all look back to the history of the past,
That made us what we are.
We have pledged our word we all shall hold fast,
Be the day away so far.
And till that time comes, let us fight and fight,
Let us fight till victory is won.
we will never give in, we are out to win,
To the very last man and gun.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Joe_F
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 07:16 PM

I do not know the song "Soldiers of the Queen", but there *is* a Kipling song "The Young British Soldier" in which "So-oldier _of_ the Queen!" is the last line of the refrain; perhaps there is some confusion with that. "The Young British Soldier", however, does not monger war; it takes war for granted & gives sage advice on how to survive it where possible. It last stanza was much quoted on Usenet a couple of years ago, in no very jingoistic spirit:

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,...

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Ferrara
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 04:56 PM

Yes!

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 01:10 PM

This old chant about sums it up:

THE FOUR HORSEMEN

(Chanted Sermon by Rev. Rubin Lacy
Bakersfield, California - 1967
Adapted by Dahlov Ipcar © 1974
Further adapted by Charlie Ipcar, 1993)

They tell me in the morning,
When the horses come out the door,
They'll be standing there a-waiting,
To see the generals they been fighting for.

First come a rider on a red horse,
His armor shining in the sun,
A flaming sword in his hand,
His helmet a Gatling-gun ?
The face of War.

Under his horse's hoofs,
The dead and dying,
Trampled in the sand,
Bodies torn by grenades,
Shattered by shrapnel,
Rot in no man?s land ?
But with visions of victory in their eyes.

Refrain:

And I hear a voice a-crying,
"Is that the general we been fighting for?"
And I hear a voice answer,
"Yes, that's the general you been fighting for."

Next come a rider on a black horse,
His body all covered with sores,
Reeking of gangrene,
From his nose and ears blood pours ?
The face of Pestilence.

Under his horse's hoofs,
The sick and the dying,
People too weak to crawl,
Bodies wracked with pain,
Vomiting black blood,
For mercy they do call ?
The madness of fever in their eyes.

Refrain:
Then, out come a rider on a white horse,
His body all covered with flies,
Thin and gaunt and haggard,
Rotting teeth and bloodshot eyes ?
The face of Famine.

Under his horse's hoofs,
Children with swollen bellies,
Pipestem arms and legs;
Across the blackened fields,
Mothers with outstretched hands,
For bread and water beg ?
The madness of starvation in their eyes.

Refrain:

At last, come a rider on a pale horse,
His body but a rack of bone,
Slashing a scythe left and right,
Eyes like balls of fire in a head of stone ?
The face of Death.

And under his horse's hoofs,
Desolation and destruction,
On the face of the earth;
Gravestones and dry bones crackling,
Black ashes swept up in the wind,
None left to mourn or curse ?
The madness of another great victory.

Refrain:

And I hear a voice a-crying,
"Is that the general we been fighting for?"
And I hear another voice answer,
"Yes, that's the general you been fighting for."

Oh, Lord, let me go!
I can't make war no more;
Oh, Lord, let me go home in peace!
I seen the generals we been fighting for.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Ferrara
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 01:56 AM

Cobber, I've heard there's strong evidence that When Johnny Comes Marching Home actually came first.

IMHO the reasons there are songs glorifying war are manifold. Patriotic fervor is actually already there, for many or most people; the songs express it, they don't just rouse it up. It doesn't have to be stirred up, it's a relic of our evolution (see The Territorial Imperative, by Desmond Morris, etc.) Not saying this is a good thing, just that I believe it's what IS. And many people, especially young people (again IMHO) see fighting an enemy as righteous as well as exciting. Patriotic songs echo their feelings. Then, once you're in a war, no matter who is/was the aggressor, patriotic and other songs about fighting are an important morale booster. They have a lot of value to the people who sing 'em.

Also -- another reason there are so many songs glorifying war is -- they sell! But then, so do the other kind.... When Walter Kittredge wrote "Tenting Tonight," (American Civil War),he was turned down by several publishers on the grounds that the song was unpatriotic and seditious. (good heavens above....). It was finally published by The Hutchinson Family, who were abolitionists as well as musicians. I believe it was the single most popular song among the soldiers on both sides. Guess they didn't think it was "unpatriotic."

I think of "warmongering" as something that people in power do, to further their own political/financial/emotional agendas. It's spiritually bankrupt, pure sleaze. Some of the songs listed above seem truly ugly and "warmongering" but I would simply characterize some of the others, such as The Minstrel Boy, as expressing positive aspects of the fighting spirit that is one element of the human heart & mind.

Oh Lord I should stay away from Mudcat late at night! Ah well.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: cobber
Date: 26 Jun 04 - 10:58 PM

I guess the reason why there have always been songs glorifying war is because they work so well in getting up the "patriotic fervour". The one that always offended me was the beautiful antiwar song, "Johnny, I hardly knew ye" being bastardised into "When Johnny comes marching home" to give it a completely opposite meaning.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Barrie Roberts
Date: 26 Jun 04 - 10:18 PM

'Soldiers of the Queen' is not by Kipling, but by (I think) Leslie Stuart. 'Here's to the Next One to Die' was written by an Army Padre during the epidemic which swept British barracks in India after the Mutiny. So far from being a warmongering song, its about the virtually inevitable fate of those who are forced to fight wars. For that reason it became a great favourite of the Royal Flying Corps pilots during WWI.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Jun 04 - 07:59 PM

Gareth, I've been to those sites too and I quite agree with your assessment. It's like researching in a filthy sewer -- it might be necessary, but it's certainly neither pleasant nor nice. As for the HWL, I was thinking more of how it was used than the words.

It has always seemed to me that the real warmongering songs were written by those who weren't at in the fight.

"An' ye had been whaur I hae been
Ye wadna been sae cantie-o
An' ye had seen what I hae seen
On the braes o' Killiecrankie-o."

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Gareth
Date: 26 Jun 04 - 07:25 PM

rich-joy Hmmm ! Soldiers of the Queen was a Kipling Poem. Not neccessarily a "Barack room ballad"

The ballad "And here's to the next man to die" well Click 'Ere Certainly sung in the services - I Learnt my version from me father (see previous threads) But was its origin "Warfare" or the depletion of battalions stationed in India or the like, 'cos it is also known as the "Cholora (SP) song".

Still as the old toast went "Bloody War, or Sickly Season", or for the really cynical -

" Beware Oh Beware of the Bight of Benin,
One comes out, for Twenty go in !"

Susanne (SKW) Modern history (apart from the neo nazi's) defines 'Horst Wessel' as a pimp killed in a brawl in a brothel. I concur your defenition.

And if any 'Catters want the ULR's of the Neo-Nazi's Websites whch still promote the "Horst Wessel Lied" PM me, with good reasons why I should supply them. I have to refer to them for research puposes, and I find it nauseating to dig through those sites.

Gareth

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 26 Jun 04 - 05:10 PM

Alan, Wessel was a pimp as far as I know, murdered by a rival in a brawl. Roehm and his cronies were the gay ones. And the HWS has nothing at all to do with war, it talks about killing Jews. As far as warmongering songs go, I prefer the Internationale ...

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: rich-joy
Date: 26 Jun 04 - 03:50 AM

Don't forget that rousing little British number "Soldiers of the Queen" - offset perhaps, by "Here's to the Last to Die" ...

Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Jun 04 - 02:14 AM

Please dont blame the Beggar's Opera for a warmongering "over the hills and far away". John Gay's words to the tune, written specifically for the show, are quite innocuous lovey-dovey stuff. The soldiers-off-to-war version is not from the Beggar's Opera.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 05:17 PM

Unless I have missed it, no-one has mentioned any of the Irish rebel songs...

For English ones, may I recommend a short course of Strawhead? Over the Hills and Far Away will do for a start. Vive Le Roi?

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Wotcha in Italia
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 03:32 PM

And don't forget "Over the Hills and Far Away ..." from the Beggars' Opera.


"Come Enlist and March I say

And go over the hills and far away ..." (I know I am ...)

Ciao,

Brian

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 02:21 PM

Onward, Christian soldiers!
Marching, as to war!!
With the cross of Jeeeesus
Going on before!!

The Protestant hymnal is chock full of warmongering tunes justifying violent advance in the name of the Price of Peace. Funny stuff, huh?


A

Subject: Lyr Add: GOD SAVE THE KING / ...QUEEN
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 01:57 PM

God Save The King (Queen):

1. God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,
God save the Queen!
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us;
God save the Queen!

2. O Lord our God arise,
Scatter her enemies
And make them fall;
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On Thee our hopes we fix,
God save us all!

3. Thy choicest gifts in store
On her be pleased to pour;
Long may she reign;
May she defend our laws,
And ever give us cause
To sing with heart and voice,
God save the Queen!

4. Not in this land alone,
But be God's mercies known,
From shore to shore!
Lord make the nations see,
That men should brothers be,
And form one family,
The wide world over.

5. From every latent foe,
From the assassins blow,
God save the Queen!
O'er her thine arm extend,
For Britain's sake defend,
Our mother, prince, and friend,
God save the Queen!

6. Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the King!

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 01:30 PM

When anyone talks of war songs I always think of those lines in the Skye Boat song, which when sung quietly can have such an effect. The Corries version particularly...The lines are...."Manys the lad, fought on the day, well the claymore did wield. When the night came, silently lay, dead, on Cullodens field" For me those words fire the imagination and are quite graphic in their own way.
Be Blessed.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,JOHN of ELSIE`S BAND
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 11:54 AM

Fishmongering songs? Yes!
Our version of the west country parody, "Oh, Them Golden Kippers"
and
"Cockles & Mussels Alive Alive-O"

John

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: el ted
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 11:14 AM

Anybody know any fishmongering songs?

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,guest mick
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 10:28 AM

O me uncle Dick he had a stick and decided to make a slaughter;
he swore he killed a thousand men at the battle of the Boyne Water.
One fell here and one fell there and one in every quarter,
but one poor soul got a bullet up his hole at the battle of the Boyne Water

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Greycap
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 03:57 AM

Colin Kelly was shot down by Japanese fighter ace Saburo Sakai - before he did any damage to Japanese shipping whatsoever. The US propaganda machine popularized the song ( words on request).
Some others from that era ( they were refererred to as "flags") included:
Smoke on the water ( Roy Acuff)
Won't you send my dog home, Uncle Sam? ( Hank Snow )
Ballad of Rodger Young ( the Country Gentlemen - I think )

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: alanabit
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 03:39 AM

I shall have to look up the Horst Wessels Lied. There was a very good documentary about the song on German TV a year or so ago. It turned out that Horst Wessels was no more than yob (gay as it happened - although that bit was not so talked up by the NS) - who died as the result of a brawl. From what I can remember the song was crap. It is interesting just what tedious drivel some of these pro war ditties are. I guess it's the songwriting equivalent of McGonagall's poetry.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: LadyJean
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 01:24 AM

My mother, who was born in 1917, would sing a song from The Great War, "Good bye ma, good bye Pa, good bye mule with your old Hee Haw, and fare you well my sweet heart dear, I'll bring you a king for a souvenir. I'll bring you a king and a kaiser too, and that's about all one feller can do."
There's another ditty from that era called the "Indianola" that ends with, "Me just love to kill, gonna go and scalpum Kaiser Bill."

For some reason I always sang "Rally Round the Flag Boys", when driving home from Howard Dean meetups. It's from an older war, but it still suggests fighting is a good idea.

Hollowfox and I were serenading two reenactors, who do the 42nd Highlanders in the French and Indian war with "Twa Recruiting Sergeants".

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,Paranoid Android
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 09:42 PM

Amhran na bFiann (The Soldiers Song - Irish National Anthem)
"Soldiers are we whose lives are pledged to Ireland"

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Gareth
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 07:45 PM

Hmmm ! There are others, better historians than myself, who might wish to comment, but alanabit if I remember correctly "Hearts of Oak", etc. were music hall songs rather than "Shantys" or "Forebiters".

Lower deck songs were slightly more cynical- I'll give you this

"When we did bang, Monsewer Conflan,(SPX2)
You sent us bread and beer,
Now the French are beat, we've nothing to eat,
For you have nothing to fear."

Historically this must refer to Hawke's action against the French in what? The 1770's at Quiberon Bay ??

Never the less I think that your contention "The truth was that those men were mainly brutally treated slaves. is a little sweeping. By comparison to the working classes of England etc ashore, the disipline (SP?) and the rations were little diffrent than ashore, this was the age of the "Bloody Code".

It is also well recorded, and I take consideration to a "prest" man retrospectively volunteering for the volunteers bounty, a sizable proportion of the fleet were volunteers.

On that it must be pointed out that the "prest" men tended to end up in the recieving hulks, and were drafted by the "Port Admiral" into whatever ships were short of compliment.

A fair Captain, and a well known Captain, particullally if he had a reputation as a "prise taker" (not an SP!) could man his ship without resorting to the imprestment service.

Just a thought to toss into the pond of debate !

It is also worth noting that IIRC (and its to late at night to dig out and scan the sources) that something like 1% of the adult male population of GB was serving afloat in 1812.

With regard to those who wore a Redcoat there was no impresment, General poverty was sufficient a recruiting seargent.

If you take the nominal roll of a Battalion of the Line in the Peninsular War at 400 bodies, this roughly equates to the crew of a 38 Frigate, or Half the Compliment of a ship of the line.

I think some perspective should be allowed.

Gareth

" So roll on the Nelson, Rodney, Renown,
This three funnel b*****d(*) is getting me down!"

(*) Believed to be a reference to the County Class Heavy Cruisers.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 07:12 PM

I would consider the Civil War songs " Marching Through Georgia" and " We Are Coming Father Abraham" as being in this category.
SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Joe_F
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 07:05 PM

"The Battle Hymn of the Republic" is surely the best of the lot.

There is also "The Star-Spangled Banner", which is at any rate a war song, tho as mongering "Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just" is rather tepid.

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 06:51 PM

Horst Wessel Lied is not a warmongering song, it's a straight (and utterly nauseating) incitement to mass murder!

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: emjay
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 06:45 PM

The song about Colin Kelly started like this:

   There's a star-spngled banner waving somewhere
    In a distant land of heroes brave and true
   Only God's great heroes get to go there
    That is where I want to go when I die.

I don't remember any more of it, but oh, I loved that song when I was small. Now I have to sing a verse or two of The Band Played Waltzing Matilda to get it out of my head. (Did anyone hear Garrison Keillor do a version of it, The Band Played the Star-Spnagled Banner?

Another one that has been mentioned was Rodger Young (I think it was spelled with the d).

I remember part of a verse of that, and I remember singing it in an assembly when I was in the 3rd or 4th grade.
   On the island of New Georgia in the Solomons
    Stands a simple wooden cross alone to tell...

and a line about "grenades against machine guns in the gloom."

At least as many of these as there are the anti-war songs.

And are there songs that are specifically pro-peace more than anti-war?

Subject: RE: War Mongering Songs
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 06:17 PM

"Flower of Scotland"