Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times

Subject: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 08:28 AM

I got the new Radio Times home last night and went through the radio pages, as is my wont. Next Wednesday (7 July, Radio 2 8.00) Mike Harding's guest is Billy Connolly, and a RT reviewer named Jane Anderson wrote "His stories make him unmissable ... even if you loathe the folk music he chooses" (my italics). "Loathe"? I can accept that a lot of people find Connolly entertaining without liking folk, but why this gratuitious and gross insult? A lot of people don't like classical music, or jazz, or easy listening, or any other kind you can think of; but no-one would expect to read in a well-resepcted national magazine like RT the sugestion that it's considered normal for many people to loathe any style of music -- especially one that is so widely supported in all its many different forms.

Write them a stroppy letter, or send them a stroppy email, like I did ([e-mail]) It's not as if the BBC do much for folk anyway, is it?

Steve

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: GUEST,Sooz (at work)
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 08:39 AM

I loathe the bad language he uses. Otherwise the comments seem just about par for the course!

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 08:54 AM

Folk music has a huge ability to inspire love....and hate. Strange, isnt it? Just think of it as showing how powerful the music is, and then you'll be more relaxed about these crass remarks, made by morons with one brain cell who enjoy unnatural relations with animals and whose idea of good music is probably the Cheeky Girls.

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 09:20 AM

Are they dissing Folk itself or his choice of material?

~S~

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 09:56 AM

Don't know, Susan; I quoted the offensive line verbatim.

I take your point, Sooz; some people talk like that quite naturally, but than again some of us don't!

Greg: I'll grin and bear it, in the comforting knowledge that we're right and she's wrong!

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 09:57 AM

Message sent, buddy.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:03 AM

I dunno...personally, I could loath most hip-hop or rap without too much trouble. I think I'm with Susan.

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:33 AM

Well, we don't yet know what Billy chose....   but it sounds as though Jane Anderson is the person with the problem! I wonder how she'd cope with Late Junction at 10.15pm next Wednesday (Iranian kamancheh player with Kurdish singer, Italian viol player playing pieces by 17th C English composer, and Beausoleil from Louisiana playing Cajun!)

Kitty

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:37 AM

My point was, if she was dissing his particular music choices-- instead of the whole form of Folk-- I hope you don't alienate a potential supporter with the idea that on eperson recruited a forum of folkies to send hate mail! :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 11:08 AM

I just received the following reply from Radio Times. They certainly answered quickly. I will let you judge the reply.

Thank you for your email to Radio Times.

Jane was referring to the particular music that Billy chose, not the genre itself as a whole.

Regards

Paul Cumiskey

Radio Times
Reader Services
Tel: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
[e-mail]
www.radiotimes.co.uk

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 11:16 AM

Now, if they'd said she was referring to the awfulness of that specific programme I think Jane Anderson might have had a point. The MH playlist is not published till shortly before air but if the quality of Billy Connolly's choices on Desert Island Discs is anything to go by, I'm inclined to agree with Kitty that it is the reviewer that has the problem.

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 11:25 AM

Thanks Mick: at least you've had a reply, which is more than I have! Maybe I'd better listen to the show next week and see what she meant. Still ...

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 12:11 PM

Sorry if I'm being a Contrary-Mary but I don't see anything wrong with Jane Anderson's comment. It wasn't a comment about the quality of folk music, it was just an acknowledgement that some people (and perhaps the majority) don't like it, and it's perfectly true. In the same way, there are groups of people who can't stand C&W (eh Sooz!), jazz, rap, classical, et al. That's not a judgment on the music, just a matter of whatever floats the individual's boat.

And I agree with Sooz about the profanities. I have to tolerate foul-mouthed morons effin' and blindin' outside my office window all week, I certainly don't need it on me wireless or me telly.

Johnny :0)

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 02:53 PM

No Johnny,no

As I read it (in my copy of the Radio Times), the Radio Times quotation is about Billy's choice of music on the Mike Harding show, not about folk music in general. To be fair, it also says "There can't be many stars who, when they reflect upon their careers, think "Oh God I'm glad I sat in the bedroom with a banjo".

Mike Harding's programme (whatever its shortcomings)is (according to the Radio Times) a folk, roots and acoustic based music show. Jane Anderson isn't claiming to have any knowledge, understanding or backround in any of these genres, so why is she badmouthing the material that Billy chose? We'll find out on 7 July.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 05:32 PM

I like Billy Connolly as a comedian. I take him the way he is. Language an all. That doesn't mean that I go round giving out foul language.

I don't consider him as anything to do with Folk Music.

"even if you loathe the folk music he chooses"

Surely that is implying that his choice of folk music isn't that good.

I don't percieve it to mean that folk music is crap.

Are some people reading too much into it?

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 05:45 PM

I don't consider him as anything to do with Folk Music

Blimey! Even Mike Harding tonight remembered that he was once half of the Humblebums. He's a very fine banjo player.

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 05:49 PM

That may be the case, but I still see him as a comedian. I like his sense of humour, but I never really consider him as a folk artist.

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: Ed.
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 05:50 PM

Are some people reading too much into it?

Undoubtedly!

No offense intentened, but some of the posts in this thread should only be worthy of 5 year olds...

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 05:55 PM

Well said ther Ed

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 06:03 PM

At one time he worked as a welder in the Clyde shipyards alongside the late Bobby Campbell, the fiddler, and Gus Macdonald (really). In the mid 1960s he was involved in an amazingly popular and really rough dive of an all-nighter club above a Glasgow cinema. This was before going on the road with Gerry Rafferty. Oh, he's got credentials...

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 06:13 PM

Not looking for an argument. I stand by my comments that I see him as a comedian.
You might see him as something else. That is your right.

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 06:24 PM

No-one sees Barbara Dickson either as a singer of traditional songs nowadays. But it's still sure as hell where she started. Billy Connolly only became a comedian when the jokes were taking up most of his sets, leaving hardly any time for songs.

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 06:36 PM

Yeah..Billy and Tam Harvey were regulars at our club when they were starting out.
Tam was the music man....Billy couldn't wait to get started with the patter.
They were known as the Humblebums later ,then joined by Gerry,who changed their direction. Before Gerry arrived they did a lot of Bluegrass and comedy stuff.Gerry was the real mccoy. Hearing his songs for the first time was mind blowing.
I always thought Gerrys solo records were "over produced". To me he was more effective with just the guitar...Ake

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: Bert
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:39 PM

Yes he's a great comedian but an even better singer/songwriter.

His version of Two Little Boys is fantastic.

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 12:00 AM

He also played in chain of Irish Pubs here in Massachusetts called The Harp & Bard around '69 or '70, along with Hamish Imlach, the Sands Family, Bill Barclay and quite few other fine performers.
Billy was more than capable of holding his own on banjo & guitar & singing with the others.
He's a legit musician who went to the comedy side.
Which brings me to a pet theory of mine (probably worthy of its own thread)....
Many great comedians started out as musicians.They retained their musical skills but went with the comedy as their career.
Bill Connolly, Steve Martin, Victor Borge, Jack benny, Henny Youngman to name a few.
Dermot Morgan (the late Father Ted) was a fine guitarist and singer.
Why do musicians make good comedians?


Seamus

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: Fossil
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 03:57 AM

Good point, Seamus. I well remember going to the Boggery Folk Club in Solihull in the '60's to listen to a fine guitar player and singer. Later he became slightly famous as Jasper Carrott. Another one for the list.

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 04:16 AM

I admit I did wonder whether I'd misinterpreted Anderson's meaning; but she wrote "even if you loathe the folk music he chooses", not "even if you loathe his choice of folk music": diferent emphasis, you see. And "loathe" is such a strong word: "dislike" would be adequate to convery the meaning without the emotive undertone. When you're limited to a few dozen words (a third of a sidebar on a page of radio listings), you should choose them with care.

Steve
PS You can add Mike Harding to that list too!

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: GUEST,Roger the Skiffler
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 09:26 AM

This from AOL News on latest UK Big Brother series:Earlier yesterday they succeeded in the final stage of the Glastonbury task - a "folk off" contest in which they had to compose and perform folk songs.

Dressed in Arran jumpers and fake beards, they split into two teams and sang their songs accompanied by a guitar and a tambourine.

So no tereotyping there either!

RtS
(Glad I don't watch BB!)

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 10:59 AM

A guitar, eh? Not real folk songs, then!

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 11:12 AM

Pity none of them had the knowledge or wit to sing something like 'Henry Martin'. That would have baffled the nation!

(A dedicated non-watcher of all BB-like series)

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 11:26 AM

The only person I know in my circle who likes folk music is me and my mate Les, and he is a folk musician. Folk music, sadly, is not well liked.

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 11:37 AM

"even if you loathe the folk music he chooses" That is not to say the reviewer loathes folk music, just the stuff that is played on Radio Two. I have a certain sympathy with this sentiment in as much as many of the people I enjoy listening to, rarely if ever, get air time on Mike Harding's programme.
When was the last time you heard Duncan McFarelane, Anthony John Clarke, Harvey Andrews or Eric Bogle. I do not tune in very often now so things may have changed, but from the little I do hear I think not.

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 12:49 PM

Music - comedy - ?



Timing!

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 04:03 PM

Webster's 1913 Dictionary

Loath´ing

n.        1.        Extreme disgust; a feeling of aversion, nausea, abhorrence, or detestation.

This is not a word that would usually be used in a music review or discussion, because playing music does not really evoke any of these things--it is hyperbole, and it's use would suggest an intent to insult, bellittle, and denigrate the performers work.

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 04:58 PM

Raggy

I don't listen every week but I think Mike Harding has acknowledged Eric Bogle and Harvey Andrews from time to time. I don't think he's registered Duncan McFarlane or AJC though.

Re earlier posts - there was something of a north-south divide between singer/ songwriters / guitarists who played working men's clubs and who developed (or had to develop) great patter as well as musicianship and deal with PA equipment, and the much more laid-back acoustic clubs in East Anglia and the south.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 07:47 PM

Well, lets have the list of selections. Then we could vote: Loud applause, ho hum, and LOATHE.

On second thought, forget it. I agree with M Ted- loathe is one of those put-down words.

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: GUEST,Mekon
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 06:16 AM

I loathe the lack of proper English.

What is a DIS anyway?

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 06:40 AM

An American solecism, O Mighty Ruler Of The Universe. Maybe you can eradicate it with your death rays?

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 08:34 AM

And I still say, to those of you whose comprehension of English isn't up to scratch, that 'Even if you loathe the folk music he chooses' is not a judgmental statement about folk music, just an acknowledgement that folk music is loathed by some people - a statement which is absolutely accurate. I've had major bollockings on some of the political threads for 'adding value' to other people's statements, i.e. reading into them something that's not there, and that's what some of you are doing here.

Brush up on your English Comprehension and/or grow a skin! :0)

And Billy is a comedian. He is no longer a folk artist. Whatever he may have been, he no longer is. He does a stand-up comedy routine, he doesn't perform folk songs. When I was eleven I used to sing in a choir as a boy-soprano, but I don't claim to be one now, and I bet Billy no longer claims to be a folk singer (if indeed he ever did).

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 07:00 AM

So, last night's playlist od Billy Connolly's choices is at last published. Who thinks the Radio Times was justified in rubbishing it?


Title:        Empty Pocket Blues
Artist:        The Incredible String Band
Album:        The Incredible String Band
Label:        Elektra 7559-61547-2

Title:        The Coo Coo Bird
Artist:        Clarence Ashley
Album:        Anthology of American Folk Music Volume 3: Songs
Label:        Smithsonian Folkways SFW 40090/A 28750

Title:        Strolling Down The Highway
Artist:        Bert Jansch
Album:        Bert Jansch
Label:        Transatlantic Records/Castle Music CMRCD204

Title:        Sule Skerry
Artist:        Barbara Dickson
Album:        Parcel Of Rogues
Label:        Castle Communications CTV CD 126

Title:        The Freedom Come-All-Ye
Artist:        Dick Gaughan
Album:        Sail On
Label:        Greentrax CDTRAX109

Title:        Margaret's Waltz
Artist:        Aly Bain
Album:        First Album:
Label::        Whirlie Records Whirlie CD1

Title:        Hopping Down in Kent
Artist:        The Albion Dance Band
Album:        The Prospect Before Us
Label:        Harvest 077 7 81428 2 9

Title:        Cam Ye O'er Frae France
Artist:        Steeleye Span
Album:        Original Masters
Label:        BGO Records BGOCD322

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: mooman
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 07:17 AM

Sounds like a decent selection to me Countess...!

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 07:48 AM

De gustibus non disputandum est
Chacun ses gouts
There's no accounting for taste

This saying has been knocking about very wisely, probably in all cultures, for thousands of years. Yet we still argue about preferences and get angry with other people's tastes. Strange, isnt it?

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: GUEST,DMcF
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 08:43 AM

Och, it's real nice of Raggy and Kitty to be hankerin' after airplay on my behalf (amongst others).
Poor Mike Harding seems to get it in the neck for his playlist quite a lot - both here and on other similar message boards.
In his defence, I must say, he has a pretty impossible task to satisfy 'the folk public' given that there are SO many facets to the genre - so many styles all collecting under that vague umbrella. Whatever gets played stands a chance of alienating a different set of 'folk'.
But, for information purposes y'understand, I should point out that MH has indeed played a track from my solo CD 'Bed of Straw' (only last year) - right next to 'Little Pot Stove' by Nic Jones - which still has me glowing now - to be 'aired' alongside my hero!!
So, if he 'got round to' playing this local artist and his 'own label' CD, there's hope for everyone that'd like to be on the show.

At least we still have a toe-hold on a national radio station.
We here in Yorkshire lost our local BBC folk prog (still outraged at the loss of dear Henry Ayrton!)
We DO though, have the marvellous Tim Moon transmitting out of Bradford - thankfully!
ALL the possible outlets have to be treasured and supported surely? Yes, there are plenty of people that say they don't like 'folk' (Guinness springs to mind here) - let's give 'em the chance to hear it though. - Hugs - Duncan

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 10:06 AM

Thanks for the playlist, countess richard. I only heard the first two, owing to weather problems. I will happily accept that the Increds and Clarence Ashley could be a bit unusual for first-time listeners, but even my saxophone-playing brother couldn't find fault with anything there.

I see Radio Times didn't print my letter ... next week, maybe?

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 12:03 PM

Wow, even one of my favourites in his "bad choices". I love Margaret's Waltz.

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: GUEST, Mikefule
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 12:36 PM

Whoah! Inappropriate semantic analysis!

We live in an age when the BBC's transport correspondent ALWAYS says that a road is blocked due to "an earlier accident" (rather than one that is expected to happen later) Even respected broadcasters use "target" as a verb, not only in the sense of "making something into a target", but also as a synonym for "aim".

Every fire is a "blaze", every death is a "tragedy", everyone who has been on TV once before is a "celebrity". By extrapolation, the modern media's concept of "loath" means (in old money) "mildly dislike".

In this context, perhaps it is inappropriate to worry about whether a presenter meant "Even if you loath all folk music, which is what this chap chooses," or, "Even if you like folk music, but you loathe this chap's particular choice of material."

And it is fair to say that most people (er... folk) dislike what they perceive to be "folk music", much as many self-professed folkies would dislike exactly the same material - badly sung versions of "The Wild Rover", "All Around My Hat" and "Day Trip to Bangor".

So, perhaps this presenter meant, "You may not be keen on folk music per se, but this programme's still worth watching."

Part of the stereotype of folkies is that they are humourless. A sense of humour is the ability to laugh at one's self.

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: Nemesis
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 02:35 PM

Ditto basically what's said above ... and irrespective of what the reviewer wrote, a sub-editor has chopped it up and changed to fit on the page.

I mean, blimey, chaps, how many club organiser among us sends carefully-worded press releases to the local papers - only to have them reduced to meaninglessness by Subs?

Hil
xx

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 03:06 PM

Every fire *is* ablaze-

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 05:11 AM

And every death is a tragedy to someone.

Subject: RE: Insult to Folk Music from Radio Times
From: Shula
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 05:44 AM

Dear Folks,

Can anyone provide examples of the sorts of selections Mr. Connolly has chosen to present, so we may judge for ourselves the merits of those selections?

Thank you.

Shula