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Singaround etiquette ?

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JonnyDyer 19 Jul 04 - 11:01 PM
VIN 09 Jul 04 - 04:04 AM
PennyBlack 08 Jul 04 - 09:52 PM
Rasener 08 Jul 04 - 05:31 PM
GUEST,Steve 08 Jul 04 - 05:15 PM
GUEST,Guest Phil 07 Jul 04 - 04:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jul 04 - 02:23 PM
MoorleyMan 07 Jul 04 - 01:15 PM
GUEST,MC Fat 07 Jul 04 - 11:23 AM
GUEST,Hugh Jampton 07 Jul 04 - 11:20 AM
GUEST,MC Fat 07 Jul 04 - 09:24 AM
The Beast of Farlington 07 Jul 04 - 08:57 AM
VIN 07 Jul 04 - 08:48 AM
GUEST,MC Fat 07 Jul 04 - 06:58 AM
Dave Bryant 07 Jul 04 - 06:24 AM
GUEST,MC Fat 07 Jul 04 - 05:56 AM
Rasener 07 Jul 04 - 03:28 AM
Red and White Rabbit 07 Jul 04 - 02:36 AM
Herga Kitty 07 Jul 04 - 02:34 AM
GUEST,Anne Croucher 06 Jul 04 - 08:33 PM
GUEST,Richard 06 Jul 04 - 07:46 PM
Herga Kitty 06 Jul 04 - 07:45 PM
Leadfingers 06 Jul 04 - 07:32 PM
alanww 06 Jul 04 - 06:52 PM
GUEST,Anne Croucher 06 Jul 04 - 06:08 PM
Herga Kitty 06 Jul 04 - 03:44 PM
GUEST,Betsy 06 Jul 04 - 02:43 PM
Sooz 06 Jul 04 - 02:18 PM
LesB 06 Jul 04 - 01:52 PM
Cats 06 Jul 04 - 11:59 AM
Dave Bryant 06 Jul 04 - 11:58 AM
Carol 06 Jul 04 - 11:17 AM
HuwG 06 Jul 04 - 10:52 AM
GUEST,Hugh Jampton 06 Jul 04 - 10:45 AM
HuwG 06 Jul 04 - 10:27 AM
GUEST,MC Fat 06 Jul 04 - 09:54 AM
Bert 06 Jul 04 - 09:12 AM
The Fooles Troupe 06 Jul 04 - 08:59 AM
Snuffy 06 Jul 04 - 08:53 AM
Pied Piper 06 Jul 04 - 06:21 AM
GUEST,MC Fat 06 Jul 04 - 05:44 AM
GUEST,padgett 06 Jul 04 - 05:31 AM
The Fooles Troupe 06 Jul 04 - 04:59 AM
Mr Happy 06 Jul 04 - 04:50 AM
GUEST,padgett 06 Jul 04 - 04:27 AM
The Fooles Troupe 06 Jul 04 - 01:41 AM
Ebbie 05 Jul 04 - 11:44 PM
mg 05 Jul 04 - 11:22 PM
Ebbie 05 Jul 04 - 11:09 PM
Bert 05 Jul 04 - 09:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: JonnyDyer
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 11:01 PM

More spurious penny's worths!

I've really enjoyed reading this - especially as someone who can't sing for toffee but is really trying to get there.

Some of the suggested rules are really just trying to stop people behaving rudely - and these I applaud completely; trying to encourage people not to waste too much time with tuning, or taking over - jumping the queue, playing once and buggering off etc. Its a shame we have to consider such rules - but hey.

I was at the Glasson festival SARS mentioned earlier. Didn't stay the whole distance simply because it was too crowded - and I was sitting in the middle of the walkthrough blocking everyone's path and felt "in the way". The two that came to "run the club" were unfortunate because they thought that they were paid to run a club - though I guess if they have come in and watched for a few minutes, they could have seen an opportunity to be paid for doing nothing!

I've been seen small SARS and Playarounds where they have very strict rules (no instruments, no more than 4 verses etc) - and they wonder why no one turns up. Think about it guys - too many rules and you exclude everyone - so best not then complain that you only get three friends ever turning up.

I think my last point - is the need for self regulation. I think its only reasonable to keep each bit short .... but I have a few tunes that are 8-9 minutes long ... so will ask if any one minds and I'll play a long one and be missed out next time (or next wo times). There are some songs that have lots of verses - and don't make any sense without most of them included. Lets not exclude these songs just for a rule - but also ... lets be fair about time.

Surely this is the way to go. I get really fed up when I see a duo making really nice interesting harmonies - only to be drowned out by everyone singing the chorus "the same old way". Have respect listeners to what's going on.

But then ..... better still .... why not feel free to say what you want when you start. "I'm singing XXXXX, please join in" or "my version of XXXX please can I sing it on my own" or "singing XXXX; its in G for any guitarists" etc.

That way there is room for everyone. The best bit for me at Glasson was the guy singing a WhiteSnake tune. Totally uexpected - and done nicely with acoustic guitar. I can think of a few clubs that wouldn't have allowed it - due to it being a rock song.

More fool them.

That's all from me.


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: VIN
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 04:04 AM

Thanks for the info PennyB. Tho i live near Rochdale, i'll try and get to Blackpool at some point - find a b & b & join youse at the Princess - sounds a good gig for a true amateur like me.


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: PennyBlack
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 09:52 PM

Hi Vin....

Princess Session every Tuesday from 9.00pm new venue and still trying to find the best place in the pub to take over....

The Princess
Foxhall Road
Blackpool.

2 mins from Central Pier - map via the clicky linky thingy

If your up in the area - try and pop into The Steamer Lunchtime ARC collection - not a session but musicians singers welcome to do a spot (PA not acoustic) every Tuesday Lunch 11.30am - 2.30 pm (then off to the Princess after tea)


Have a look here for more info on above

PB


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: Rasener
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 05:31 PM

Well Martin, put your money where your mouth is and come and MC the singaround at Market Rasen on Sunday the 29th August from 2:00 to late.
I will do an assesment of your qualities. What you say makes a lot of sense and fits my bill. :-)


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 05:15 PM

As far as etiquette goes I put it that some people at singarounds are rude by

a) joining in on a song or chorus with gusto before they know the version being done. Quieter singers are drowned and their interesting arrangements are lost to the better known versions.

b) singing choruses loud and slowing the whole thing down to a dirge.

For me the famous SARS that would be good are Whitby Tap an Spile but for a), and Towersey for b).


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: GUEST,Guest Phil
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 04:38 PM

I only travel for one hour to get to Gainsborough folk club but the organisation and welcome you receive makes it worth while, a good club and very friendly. And everyone is ready when their turn comes around.


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 02:23 PM

Then there are the ones who repeat the first verse at the end for no real reason, and then keep waving their fingers around for chorus encores.


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: MoorleyMan
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 01:15 PM

Time to add me own two-penn'orth !

Carol it's good you started this thread. Those bugbears beloved of us old lags as well as aspiring newcomers to the SAR scene whether performers or listeners.

Worst of all I think is them that know it's their turn next, that faff about (right on there Sooz!) stumbling over everyone to reach for (or borrow) guitar/other instrument, then spend ages tuning up and/or recounting some tedious anecdote to cover their ineptitude in tuning. All of which uses up time in a crowded SAR and can deprive other singers of that much needed extra song. I don't feel like wasting that all too precious time. That's why I gave up playing guitar in public a couple of years ago and stick to unaccompanied singing. Sold it off to the lass's ex, went straight out and treated meself to a stack of Carthy CD's. Good deal that I thought.

Agree with you on the Moment of Glory folks too Rhiannon. Really infuriates that. Tho to be fair there's been times when I've seen that same impression can be wrongly given by say a festival steward or other helper who's waited patiently for his/her turn to come round then had to dash off after their song to be on duty at the campsite or other remote place.

Big "no-no's" too for me are a SAR starting late. Many a time I turn up for an advertised start time and nowt happens till the leader decrees a "quorum". Worst cases nearly an hour out of an allotted two and a half'll go by in idel chat, no wonder folks get peed off and leave.

As for SAR needing leader/s, well it can work both ways. Non-led SARs might so easily turn into a "dive in or duck out" where the less confident will lose out to the louder or more dominant – not always a good thing. But a fair leader can move things on with firm or gentle pressure and work wonders. My ideal rules be – no favouritism, no primadonnas, and keep things moving! A bit of irreverent fun can help too, but it needs to be kept in check. MCFat's list of "respected" leaders is a reliable guide, I've always rated Guest Padgett and Ken Johnson highly in that regard too, and he's right it ain't as easy as it sounds, but as they all say there's others – Geoff Miller, Malc Gurnham, Dave K, Eric P, Mick Pearce all spring to mind – who I've found make the best of what can be such a hit and miss event. And course it depends on who turns up I agree.

Sorry Nutty I been going to Cleckheaton for years now but I too found Cleck disappointing this year, at least the SAR's. (Tho' the booked guests were all tremendous I hastily add!) I'd endorse the Wickham landlord's support, he's a great bloke but he's saddled with a troublesome venue. Of which Carol's experience was sadly typical. If you followed Brid Widder's advice and "just move on through til you find one that suits", then you end up not getting to do a song in any of them I find. Oh and I turned up there at just after half past eight Sunday eve to find the entire pub bereft of folkies (but programme advertised a SAR). And almost no punters got a look in at the Sunday Sing this year either.

Which brings me to the last bit – someone asked why have SARs at all? Well there's no substitute for the process of singing a song out is there? However much you sing it in the car, at home, in the bath, cooking the dinner, walking the dog, word perfect maybe. You need to sing it out in front of an audience, of four or forty, and only then will you know whether it works. For all us nonprofessional singers it's simply our only chance.

So dont lets treat SARs as the poor relation, they've an important role to play in any festival.

Old money roolz OK!
M


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 11:23 AM

Someone in another thread mentioned that the session's in Beverley were only spoiled by some people who had been thrown out of the irish session for incompetence !!! Perhaps we should institute a Mudcat Sponsored 'Folk Marque' and give it to accredited sessions.


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 11:20 AM

Stick on a reasonable entry fee and then you will probably have fewer people coming in, doing their thing then clearing off.


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 09:24 AM

I thought the only good rule at a singaround was to enjoy yourself and have a bloody good sing.


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 08:57 AM

Two reasons people take offence at the way singarounds are run.

1. The 'rules' are virtually never talked about and therefore obvious to everyone and so each person has different expectations of what will happen

2. Ask yourself why you feel aggrieved that a person has left after singing their song. Is it because they dod not stay to listen to you? If so, are you any less self-motivated than them?


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: VIN
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 08:48 AM

Hi Penny Black, what night is the 'Princess' session held.

Some good sing-a-rounds at Saddleworth, 'specially in the con club on late sat neet!

Sithee there, 16th, 17th, 18th July!


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 06:58 AM

...wouldn't ban you two southern gits there wouldn't be anyone to insult !!!


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 06:24 AM

Well Jim, you should be seeing Linda and myself again this year at the "Crap & Smile" - unless you ban us of course.


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 05:56 AM

There's never going to be a right way or a wrong way to run a singaround as in previous threads some people think the Tap & Spile at Whitby Folk week is elitist and I agree to a point it is elitist but it's not exclusive and people have come and gone over the years I've been going. When it come to quality it's mega and the harmonies are stunning but some folks don't like our ability to be irreverent and not serious, taking the piss and having a laugh. I suppose folks like me Page Jude Ken etc have been around so long we know a lot of singers but occasionally I have to be reminded by R&WR that I've missed someone !!!


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 03:28 AM

Sue Dewsbury runs a very good singaround at the Gainsborough Folk Club.
She is very fair and ensures that everybody who wants to, gets a turn. If somebody has come a long distance, she will go out of her way to give them extra time, very often Sue and Mike and John Blanks forego there turns to enable that.
Consequently it is the norm to get a very good night there.


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: Red and White Rabbit
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 02:36 AM

Before my twenty year break from singing I used to run singarounds at college and an unofficial singaround in Whitby week at the Middle Earth when it first opened.I knew the then landlord well (it being my local)and he was folk friendly so myself and a group called Tatters Cottage used to organise something in there. The session mainly consisted of locals and and day trippers with many diferent styles and tastes and sometimes no one who wanted to sing and plenty that wanted to listen. Singarounds are not as easy to organise as they look especially if you dont want three quiet women in successfion or two poets etc. but thats difficult if you dont know the people.

Like most of you I have sat in many a singaround. Cleckheaton, Holmfirth and Saddleworth are my local festivals and at two of them I run workshops and sing. The Wickham singaround room I dont like but the sessions tend to be as good as the people who come. You cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear however good you are at running singarounds but what you find is that certain people like MCFAT and Old Git Geoff Miller and Padgett Ken J and Judy Knight are so well known for organising good singarounds that you will get a lot of people there and get a good session going.

Personally I hate people who know better talking loudly through someone's song. Organisers who ignore the newbie in favour of their mates or people well known on the scene and people who walk in and out during the singing - oh yes and mobile phones going off!! Otherwise you can put a group of people in any pub to sing and if its going to be good it will be


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 02:34 AM

The Anchor Middle Bar Singers have been discussing with the landlord whether the Anchor could be made less smoky - conclusion is that a ban on smoking couldn't be policed in folk week, but it might be worth trying a voluntary code. Mind you, I found it quite smoky even during the February reunion when it's less crowded!

Kitty


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 08:33 PM

Ah -the theatre bar - yes - I think I have found that once before. I could breathe there, and therefore sing.

I can't sing at the Anchor any more as it is too airless and smokey down in the middle bar. It makes my voice transmogrify into a squeek.

I did find the tent behind the Volunteer last year, but was plagued by constant chattering.

Anne


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: GUEST,Richard
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 07:46 PM

Another reason why some of you should try Gainsborough Folk Club...you have seen them on Mudcat...you have read what they have said...you take what you have seen on trust...and you give them a visit because you know this is where the heart is. Go for it folks!!!!!!. Go to Gainsborough for a sing-around...It will be worth it, I promise. It is not as organised as some of you seem to want but everyone gets a turn and usually twice...(ie, one song at a time leaving time to prepare for your second)
Give it a go if you are in the area, what have you to lose??????????


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 07:45 PM

Alan

Thanks - I realise that it seems odd to say there isn't a serving bar in the Theatre Bar, but they serve unobtrusively and don't disturb the singing!

Anne - I haven't received a working programme yet, but the singarounds generally start with a 12-2 session on the Saturday, and then run from 10.30am-2pm from Sunday through till Friday, with a change of MC at noon.

Kitty


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 07:32 PM

The New Tavern and the Swan are mostly music sessions , but DO have songs as well , being totally MIXED sessions - Allsorts of music and all sorts of songs .


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: alanww
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 06:52 PM

Anne: Kitty usually runs a very good day-time SAR session in the Theatre Bar, which is not like a pub, being very much more, er, respectful!
"I like to rise ...!"
Alan
PS
Other SAR venues are the Bedford (mixed and jump in at all times of the day), the York (a very respectful evenings session run by Rosie) and, of course, the lunch and evening sessions in the Middle Bar of the Anchor, which is very much a pub, which is organised by Tony Day, rather than being a free-for-all, and which concentrates on unaccompanied primarily chorus songs. I'll see you there!


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 06:08 PM

Kitty - where/when is a singaround at Sidmouth not in a pub?

I am hoping to be there for the week this year, so I would like to get information on singing locations ahead of time.

Anne


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 03:44 PM

MC Fat - thanks for the kind mention!

Carol - yes of course a good singaround depends on the singers who turn up, but it also depends very much on the experience of the MC whether the singers who turn up, and the audience, have a good time. And in my experience, also, it's self-perpetuating - MCs who build up a good rep for running good singarounds, get good singarounds.

Festival singarounds with programmed MCs are really a different kettle of fish from informal pub sessions. But if it's an organised singaround, it helps if the format is explained by the MC at the beginning.

It does rather depend on the venue - I'm lucky enough to run singarounds at Sidmouth and Chippenham that aren't in a pub with a serving bar.

I do, as a general principle, work round the room, but make a point of saying at the beginning that I'm aiming to ensure that anyone who was in the room at the beginning will get at least one song. Having said that, I'm also aware that some people who are keen to sing are working (eg as stewards) and just come when they can. So I generally explain beforehand where the singing is going to go, and why, and also ask people who are going to have to leave early to let me know. If there are time pressures, especially in the second half, I will suggest that singers save their Child ballads for the ballad session. I'll also check, by asking, how many singers are still waiting to sing. If I'm going to hop about (eg to get an alternation between male and female singers or between duos) I'll say so.

If a festival guest wanders in, and I reckon that I have time for them to sing and still get round the singers still waiting to sing, I will ask the festival guest to sing.

If you're in a pub where people are constantly coming and going it can be hard to keep track... it was quite good fun, in the Tap and Spile at Whitby last year when singing was determined by order of arrival and collection of a raffle ticket.

Kitty


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: GUEST,Betsy
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 02:43 PM

Getting back to the Thread Title - Singaround etiquette ? A singaround is only as good as the people who turn up.
Like Padgett ,a good mate of mine, I've run loads of singarounds.
The best method I found - I had people write their names on a sheet when they entered the room / with instrument or unaccompanied - in addition to the name of their home town. Enough ammo to give them a nice introduction - then give the next singer a nod that they would be "on" after this song.I could also give performers a good idea at what time they would be singing .The list enabled me to avoid the possibility of (say) three unaccompanied girls (or three unaccompanied guys) singing one after another .You could shuffle it around so it made an interesting mix of performers.
As for (say) Christie Moore or June Tabor turning up and being told to wait their turn - I don't think so - dream on - you should be so lucky.


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: Sooz
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 02:18 PM

Well said LesB


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: LesB
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 01:52 PM

All this carping about singarounds at festivals. I don't feel that you can justifiably critisise the Festival if you havn't bought a ticket. In fact from my observations there seems to be a lot of you out there that don't buy tickets for Festivals. Remember it's those of us that do buy the tickets that enable the Festivals to keep running.
Les


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: Cats
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 11:59 AM

Nowhere to sing...inappropriate rooms.. it all sounds such a common complaint which is why we run the Fox and Hounds weekend on Dartmoor. We have no guests and if someone 'famous' turns up, well, they will get a sing when it comes to their turn. If they are out of the room, tough. We have a dedicated singing room, it's the skittle alley really, and that's where we sing. It's only a very small weekend but we have been going for 10 years and it was started in response to complaints just like those here. If you are a singer and you want to sing, and are happy to take your turn however famous you are, then you are very welcome. I'll post details closer to the time but just put 13,14,15 May 2005 in your diary now.


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 11:58 AM

Just one comment about singers who leave a SAR after their spot. If the SAR is a very big one, it might several hours before your turn comes round. If you're at a festival, there may be other events which you want to get to, or even the fact that you need to eat sometime ! There have been many occasions when I've stayed much longer at a SAR than I'd planned, but when you know that it's your turn in the next 15mins or so, you do tend to stay for it. After you've sung, however, you then feel free to carry on with what ever else is on the agenda. Would it be better to leave without singing then ?

On the other hand at Tenterden Folk Festival last year, Linda and I were at John Barden's SAR from about 11.45am to 12.30am the next morning - minus a couple of hours in the early evening when we had a meal break. As various festival guests were performing upstairs in the pub, we were prevailing upon people like Dave Webber & Annie Fentiman to sing us a couple of songs as they passed through, I didn't hear anyone complaining about this - especially as most of the guest performers tended to sing songs with great choruses for us to join in with.

One of the gripes that Linda and I have about some festival SARs is that they are scheduled to finish at a fixed time (lunchtime ones always seem to end at 3pm) when there are often many people who still haven't managed to sing and plenty more who are looking to sing another time. Unless the premises are needed for another event or the landlord wants the session to end - why not carry on - as we did at the Tenterden session which I've already mentioned.


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: Carol
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 11:17 AM

Just to say that personally I won't buy season tickets for festivals as I don't attend concerts etc. but would always be quite happy to pay for a camping and singaround ticket/a more expensive camping charge than season tickets holders - I do appreciate that things have to be paid for. As to the Sat evening in the Wickham I stood in the doorway at aboout 8.30,(leaning on my walking stick) for 3/4 songs and saw no chance of a chair so I left.
As to who runs a singaround and whether it 'works' - I really think it depends much more on the singers who turn up, or not, as the case may be. this is obviously harder to plan in advance at a festival than at a club.
I have nothing 'against' the names that Ray has mentioned but other people could/would make just a good a job. After living 'down south' for about 15 years it's funny how a different 'set' of singaround leaders flourish down there and again I don't think newcomers/strangers are encouraged to have a go.


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: HuwG
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 10:52 AM

Yes. In the case I mentioned, where all three venues are on upper floors of buildings where ramps etc can easily be installed for access to the ground floors, it appears that two of the venues will simply cease to be used for performances or public events.


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 10:45 AM

Hugh G,
       Regarding the Council that only allotted funds for up-grading one building, I was under the impression that, sooner or later, all buildings considered to be "public" shall provide facilities for dis-abled access.


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: HuwG
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 10:27 AM

Purely as an observation on Carol's original complaint about inappropriate rooms within a venue for singarounds etc.

(Please bear in mind that I have not yet attended Cleckheaton, but have experience of other festivals).

One factor which may result in sessions or parts of festivals finding themselves in less-than-desirable settings, is architecture. Many public houses in Britain were built in the Victorian or Edwardian eras, and are full of odd passages, funny-shaped rooms and awkward bar arrangements. Unfortunately, not much can be done about this.

<OT?>What may affect several public houses and other venues in Britain in coming months are regulations on access for the disabled. This ought perhaps to have a separate thread to itself, but I will observe that, regrettably, some older venues may simply be forced to close rather than spend many hundreds of thousands of pounds on ramps or lifts for those confined to wheelchairs. Nobody could disagree with the sentiment that anyone whose mobility is restricted should not be able to use any venue, but the expense of providing this is being thrown entirely on the owners of the property.

(To take an example, Glossop, where I live, has three venues which are publicly owned: the Town Hall, Victoria Hall above the public library, and a similar venue above nearby Hadfield Library. All three will require extensive modernisation to comply with the disabled access requirements. The local Council can stump up the cash to modernise only *one* of these three.)</OT?>

More relevantly, another factor which organisers can perhaps affect to some degree, is the provision of bar stewards, and other staff. Most public houses hire bar staff on a temporary, part-time basis. The arrangements are often casual, in all senses of the word. Where such arrangements break down, function rooms which have their own bar and which are some distance from the main bar(s) cannot be used.

It is also regrettably the case that some landlords changed their name by Deed Poll at some point, from "Ebenezer Scrooge". They are unwilling to pay extra staff for an event, or put themselves to the effort of trying to contact, or make proper arrangments with, a shifting, irregular pool of potential bar workers (many of whom will be students or people on benefit).

It should also be noted that some public houses are "tied" i.e. owned or controlled by a brewery, and the publican is merely a tenant. The landlords of tied houses do tend to change every two or three years, and a landlord who was so accomodating and helpful to a festival last year, may be replaced by an irascible curmudgeon next year.

Other public houses are "freehold" i.e. the licensee is the owner. Where such a freehold licensee is a supporter of the event things are obviously much easier. Not much can be done about a hostile freehold publican, except wait for him or her to die or retire.


So far as the organisers of a festival are concerned, there are a few steps which they can take with regard to the owners or licensees of a pub, to ensure that arrangements proceed smoothly. It helps if they give lots of notice, and can forecast the numbers which will attend. Obviously a festival which has been running for years will have an advantage over one being run for the first time in this respect. Plenty of publicity (flyposters, websites etc) helps.

It is also useful if the licensee has a fixed contact with the organisers. It is no good if the only contact details are a few mobile telephone numbers, some of which are unobtainable and others which belong to people only tangentially connected with the event.

In the case of a tied house, it is sometimes a good idea to involve the controlling brewery. They can support willing landlords, and often contribute with extra grants and publicity. On the other hand, many festivals won't be happy with big-name breweries muscling in on the event; and some commercially-minded big breweries are only too happy to see their name in bold type on the publicity but then contribute little to the event.


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 09:54 AM

We've had some fun at singarounds by having stupid themes like the 'Eric' hour where you had to put the name 'Eric' in the song you sang, this was substituted by a 'Rhodedenurum' hour. There is of course the famous 'kill around' where you count up the number of people who have died in your songs and 'tenuous links' is good fun.


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: Bert
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 09:12 AM

Sorry Ebbie I shouldn't have picked on you like that. But I'm a bit sore about this issue. I stopped going to the Philadelphia Folk song Society because half a dozen Members thought they were better than everyone else and would form their own inner circle and let no one else in.

Oh and then there are those who sing the same old songs every time.
Songwriters with only three songs of their own are bad about this.

Now I'm not suggesting that these folks be ruled out, but if the circle is small enough then one round could consist of songs that you haven't sung there before. You wouldn't need to let anyone miss a turn if they couldn't think of a new song but it would encourage folks to learn new stuff.


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 08:59 AM

"a two-hour SAR, run by 4 booked turns (totalling 9 singers)"

... sounds a bit like a concert to me mate ... :-)


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: Snuffy
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 08:53 AM

Running a Singaround can be very difficult, and is not the same as running a folk club session.

As Ray Padgett says one song each is the rule, nobody should get to do a "spot".

If it's a time-limited SAR, then equity demands that you call the people who've been waiting longest. Go round everyone there at the start before calling new arrivals. And on a 2-5pm SAR at 4.45 I would call someone who sang at 2.15 and has remained there listening to everyone else before someone who arrives at 4.15 and hasn't sung yet. The next person to sing is the one who's been waiting longest.

Open-ended SARs or ones where you'll be handing over to another host it's more acceptable to give everyone a go before going back to starters.

But how about festival organisers who schedule a two-hour SAR, run by 4 booked turns (totalling 9 singers). By the time they've all had a starting and finishing song there's not many of your punters get a go.

My two-penn'orth anyway


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 06:21 AM

From now on I will be referring to sing-arounds as SARS. which are only marginally less damaging to trad music than the Virus.
PP


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 05:44 AM

Cleackheaton is a nice but strange festival. The Wickham has a folk friendly landlord (in fact he's a very good singer) but awfull rooms. The room with the wicker chairs and settees is basically crap for an SAR. Last year when the pub was invaded by drunken once a year performers who were 10 pints ahead of us at 7pm we encamped at the Marsh on't way to campsite last year's was a good impromtue SAR but this year's was better and the landlord was really pleased to see us again as were the punters. I concur with Padge too many festivals don't think about getting a singaround organiser or MC who's 'respected' and I can say for my part that if you book people from the following e.g. Ken Johnson, Ray Padgett, John Booker, Judy Knight, Moi, Kitty Vernon and others who there are others you'll get experienced and quality work. Too many festivals think of the singaround and shove someone in who either blags it for a ticket or someone from the committee who they can't find a job for. I've been to singarounds where you wouldn't let the person run a raffle let alone loose on an SAR or Folk Club. The question of paid performers is tricky we've had some smart impromtue performance at Whity in Tap from people like the Witches, Pegleg Ferrett and Pete Morton but I think the key to the quality is that word 'impromptue'. Yes put a key singer in but don't overload at the expense of the assembled unwashed.


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 05:31 AM

better singarounds usually have someone respected for equity to run them! Often I have run singarounds and given up my turn to others; the leader should have no 'ulterior motive' nor necessarily use it as a platform for their own ends
Ray Padgett


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 04:59 AM

Looks as though there were 2 sessions there at once ... one lot should have found another place... :-)


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 04:50 AM

We were in some sars/seshes at Glasson last w/end- just ordinary spontaneous unled ones.

Part way through the evening one, some people came in saying they'd come to run the session & went on to do 2 songs themselves then indicated who'd follow in succession doing 2 songs each.

We were a little put out by this & it was pointed out that the event had been running satisfactorily unled all afternoon & evening.


Explanation given was they were paid to 'lead' the session?

As mentioned above, sars/sesshes don't need to be led other than perhaps to ensure anyone a bit shy gets a go & this is what was already happening & does in most events anyway.

And that's my tuppence worth!


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 04:27 AM

I am a long time singaround leader and have experience of the Cleckheaton/Whickham and many other Yorkshire festivals (Barnsley Easter sing in particular) and Whitby Tap and Spile
Running a singarounds isn't as easy as it looks, to keep and maintain equity
One song each, no matter who they are, unless a booked artist has been programmed in there, is the usual course
I had my own programme at Cleckheaton, but big Dave and his mate Brian said they were going to write a song about the problems encountered in the small front room ~ it is a bit close to the dance area,etc.
Better craic in the other room, that's as far as I got
I'd like to see better use of the upstairs Commercial for singarounds
St John's Hall was better laid out on the Sat evening for Deanna's session and very well received ~ pity about the post in the Aakash


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 01:41 AM

"I could be persuaded that accordians are the exception here."

I would certainly hope so! :-)

but then, as a keyboard/multi-instrumentalist/Low-whistle(related to a flute!)/piano accordion player, some guitarists are worth excluding... ;-)

Any instrument can be used as accompaniment - if not to their own singing, then to someone else's. If someone is new to taking up their curent instrument, then excluding them will only delay their development. Bert said "there's nothing more wonderful than hearing a hesitant beginner improve into a competent performer." By excluding some people who you think are currently hopeless, you may only be cutting off your nose to spite your face in the long run. The flute can be an amazing sensitive accompaniment to the human voice.

Robin


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jul 04 - 11:44 PM

Our group is eclectic- we have an upright bass, one fiddle, a couple or three mandolins, a banjo, an autoharp and numbteen (one of them is me) guitars. The mix of songs and tunes is just as diverse. Everything from Indigo Girls to Shel Silverstein, Townes Van Zandt and Bob Dylan to southern gospel to original songs and rip-roaring fiddle and mando tunes that everyone gets into. We've been going strong just about every Friday night for 6 or 7 years.


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: mg
Date: 05 Jul 04 - 11:22 PM

I can think of three rules for song circles that work.

One is the Jon Bartlett rule (I think)..he said have it every week. People get these every other week/ third weekend of the month mixed up. They will find their own schedule.

One is the Rob Folsom rule. Don't let them sing a parody of a song that has just been sung, or sung earlier. It is yucky.

One is a generic rule...sooner or later you will probably want to ban all instruments other than guitars, and wish you could make exceptions now and then (maybe you can for new people, strangers etc.)...but (a) sometimes they are particularly tedious, especially, no offense the flute players, and (b) they start wanting to jam, which wrecks the singing. They really need a separate circle. (c) I could be persuaded that accordians are the exception here.

mg


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jul 04 - 11:09 PM

Well, Bert, I'm not one of those 'on that same level'. If you were here, you'd understand how it works. Not a one of us tells anyone NOT to play- we know who we are.

A 'guest' artist comes here perhaps twice a year- we all learn a lot from the person and for months afterward someone is demonstrating to us what she or he has learned, just from that one evening. You're not to going to find a more supportive, enthusiastic group than ours.


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Subject: RE: Singaround etiquette ?
From: Bert
Date: 05 Jul 04 - 09:52 PM

You're right PennyBlack about not wanting to be too picky. But when you get the SAME PEOPLE who EVERY TIME hog the spotlight for three times longer than anyone else then that's just arrogant rudeness.

Oh Ebbie! ...those of us who are of that same level... How nice it must be to be so good. I envy your skill but not your manners.

The whole point of a singaround is that you get to hear everyone; and there's nothing more wonderful than hearing a hesitant beginner improve into a competent performer.

If the guest singer is that important then organize a concert for them alone.


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