Hudson River Revival

Subject: Hudson River Revival
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 04:54 PM

We have heard many good reports about the Mystic and Old Songs Festivals this year. However, nobody has reported on the Hudson River Revival of 2004. Has anybody on the forum gone there this year and if so, what were your impressions ? SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: Hudson River Revival
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 08:20 PM

That's the one that doesn't even claim to be about folk music

Subject: RE: Hudson River Revival
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 08:34 PM

Au contraire my friend. It does claim to be about folk music. I think the problem is that for many years it has not attracted younger folks due to its line-up. I, for one, always appreciated it. Until now. That said, I add that this year it featured a lot of the new and the old to attract younger audiences.

Did it succeed? I know not. Did I attend this year? No. Why? Previous commitments and my demographic and narrow vision precluded my appreciation of some of the artists. Were they good? Sure. In addition, they did have some more traditional people too. As always it is more of an environmental event than a folk festival. They always claimed that.

In conclusion I would add this thought---I think that they are pricing themselves into the stratosphere.   A family of 4 would be hard pressed--unless they are friends with people like Trump---to afford the admission and all the food purchases. That is my problem with it---it has left the area of involving people with their cause and asking big bucks for them to receive a message they can get any day on radio/TV/ and in community involvement. Or in listening to certain radio programs. OK that is self serving. But it is true.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Hudson River Revival
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 09:07 PM

Yes, Bill is right. They have priced themselves out of the market. In addition, before you get to pay them, you have to pay the Westchester Parks Dept. for parking on site. In addition, I have in recent years been turned off by Pete Seeger's pro Palestinian political rehtoric; especially the fact that he has turned over the royalties from his song "Turn, Turn, Turn" to help rebuild the homes of Palestinian homicide bombers that have been destroyed by the Israeli army. As a Jew, I feel that I can no longer support his cause. My wife was discussing this very point earlier today with Phil Cigoner, owner of the Towne Crier Cafe, in Pawling, N.Y., a venerable folk music venue. Phil, who lived in Israel during the 1950s, organized the talent for the first 3 Revivals and considers himself a friend of Pete. He has also lost all interest in the Revival for the same reasons cited by Bill and myself. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: Hudson River Revival
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 11:23 PM

I do not know about Pete Seeger's views or actions in this regard, but I should point out that a number of people in the Israeli peace movement have helped rebuild homes of Palestinians that were damaged or destroyed by the Israel Defence Forces. Some donated money, but more contributed their actual physical labour and technical expertise.

Subject: RE: Hudson River Revival
From: EBarnacle
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 11:58 PM

As a coordinator and performer for the Revival, I am going to stick to the positive end of things. My venue, the Working Waterfront, got about 1500 people on the water in small boats of various descriptions. The Working Waterfront added 2 stages which were both well attended. Both stages were folk within the definition which would apply here at MC. There was also a new stage added, which was a round robin for audience members to join in. This was also well attended.

Considering the bath [in several senses] we took last year, I believe we did well. Next week, I shall be attending the recap meeting to find out how well we did but I do know we broke even for the festival on Saturday. If people wanted tickets that cost about what they did at Mystic, for example, they could have bought in advance. Parking, at $5 per vehicle, was not exorbitant. People could have taken the train and gotten a package admission.

Many, including yours truly, felt we could have charged less or gotten a less "pop" list of performers. On the other hand, we got the audience out and had a chance to get our message across to them. If they are not the basic folk audience, perhaps we ought to ask ourselves what we have to do to get a major folk event in the Hudson Valley which will pay for itself. As a marketer, I have learned that if a program cannot carry its financial weight, the overall organization may have to rething it.

Next year, I am planning to coordinate a juried art gallery for the festival. If any of you artists wish to submit works for jurying, perhaps you can PM me and we will discuss the criteria.

Subject: RE: Hudson River Revival
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 12:21 AM

If you are trying to re-think your marketing strategy, it may be time to seek corporate sponsorship. Mystic did it this year with generous grants from Coca Cola and Pfizer. Of course, I am referring to corporations that are environmentally friendly and are compatable with Clearwater's stated goals of cleaning up the Hudson. This would enable you to book the better known performers in the Folk community while at the same time, keeping the admission for us poorer folks at a more reasonable rate. Also, coming from Rockland County, there is no direct rail service to Croton, so we can not take advantage of the train package. I suggest that in the future, you try to make a deal with the TOR (Transport Of Rockland) public bus system, to extend the Tappan Zee Express to Croton Point Park on the days of the Revival, & include an admission package like you do with Metro-North. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: Hudson River Revival
From: bbc
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 09:21 AM

I used to go, several years ago, every year & heard wonderful performers. In recent years, almost none of the performers have been ones I want to hear, so I no longer attend.

best,

bbc (former resident of Westchester County, NY)

Subject: RE: Hudson River Revival
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 10:19 AM

I agree with Bill Hahn. I also agree with Dick Greenhaus, the festival is no longer a "folk" festival except in the fact that the organizers are trying to draw in a lot of folks. The word "folk music" does not appear (or is well hidden)on their flyers or advertising anymore. It is now officially an "environmental" festival.

I attended the festival for many years before I lost intrest in it. The early fests were magic. I would always marvel at the variety of music that could be sampled. Professional and amateur artists would share their work with an appreciative audience. The enviromental and political aspect added to the atmosphere.

Somewhere in the late 80's the festival began to change. By the 1990's it had become, in my opinion, a very commercial event and the diversity of music diminished with traditional "folk" taking a back seat. In recent years there seems to be a recycling of the same names and the last time I attended the audience seemed disconnected - nothing like the enthusiastic crowds I see at festivals like Old Songs, Mystic or even the Philadelphia Folk Festival.

I only attend every few years now, and I no longer anxiously await the event.    I mark my calendar for Old Songs, Mystic & Philly and think nothing of traveling to these events. The spirit and music carries those events. Unfortunately the Great Hudson River Revival, which is in my own backyard, no longer pulls me.

The original question that Rabbi Sol posted has not been answered yet, which may be a telling sign.   Aside from Ebarnacle, did anyone else attend this year? What were your thoughts?

Subject: RE: Hudson River Revival
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 10:36 AM

Rabbi-Sol, your mention of Phil Ciganer reminded me of the Bear Mountain Folk Festival that he ran for a couple of years. I'm a bit fuzzy on why that event came to a halt. I remember the first one vividly and I thought it was an excellent lineup in a beautiful location.

Subject: RE: Hudson River Revival
From: EBarnacle
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 11:45 AM

The "folk" is there, it is no longer center stage. Sponsorship is a thorny issue. Even the major sponsors are only sponsoring concrete parts of the festival. We find that the way to guarantee that the sponsors will come back is to do our best to guarantee a large audience.

This means putting audience interest before our own. Once the festival is guaranteed, it allows us to put our interests where we can find them.

Interestingly, many of the rockers hang out and perform with the folkies on the secondary stages. This brings aurdience to the messages we are trying to sell.

The point of the festival is trifold. [These are not in strict order of priority.] First, we have to raise money; second, we have to sell the environmental message to those who are no yet the "choir," third, we have to keep the choir coming back and build the audience. If that means going outside our original design, so be it.

As Bill knows, I have been involved with the boat and festivals since "the old days." Without going into issues of better or worse, Clearwater has absorbed the message of "evolve or die." We are doing our best to stay alive and spread the environmental message.

Subject: RE: Hudson River Revival
From: Anglo
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 12:46 PM

The Bear Mountain Festival was a financial disaster and a number of the performers were never paid.

Subject: RE: Hudson River Revival
From: EBarnacle
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 01:41 PM

Another issue we have trouble with is union scale. For the past several years, we have been paying our performers union scale. That means we have to get the audience to pay for them. This year, we are debating whether to terminate our contract with the union. This will allow us to pay less to those who will accept it. It also means that we can go back to the old way of performing. Of course, it also means we will have to accept smaller audiences, most of whom are already the converted. It will probably also cost us much of the sponsorship we are getting.

I find myself in the middle of this issue. As a union activist, I want to support the union and I have always had trouble with those who tell me, "you will make up for it in exposure."

A related question is whether the priority is to support the union and pay performers scale wages or to keep costs down. If the event costs more than the organization can raise or bring in, either the event will cease or the organization will. Clearwater has had to do major belt tightening this past year.

I am not a bean counter but I certainly do understand the need to eat and survive.

Subject: RE: Hudson River Revival
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 02:02 PM

It may also come down to the question of whether or not a festival is a cost-effective way to get out the message, at least on the scale that it now exists.   I think the Clearwater does an extraordinary job of teaching and spreading the environmental message. Given the costs that are involved, perhaps a festival is not in the best interests of the organization. Should Clearwater gamble its resources and face the potential of ceasing to exist as an organization?

I sometimes wonder if new audiences "get" the message. There is something to be said for preaching to the choir and helping to strengthen resolve. Often, an audience will show up just because of one "pop" performer but they will remain oblivious to the surrounding hoopla. I would be curious to see how many new memberships are created during the festival. I would assume that it is a major source for new members.   Have these members been polled to see what attracted them to the festival? Perhaps Clearwater can be just as effective with smaller crowds and a return to the "old ways".

Subject: RE: Hudson River Revival
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 08:30 PM

I wonder if Pete is still running the show at Clearwater, or is he just too old to care anymore. It is difficult to imagine a person with such lofty ideals who is practically idolized by all his followers, sacrificing those ideals to the money gods. The name Pete Seeger was always synonamous with Folk music. I still remember attending the first Hudson Valley Picnic at Lyndhurst which was the forerunner of the Great Hudson River Revival. It was a rainy Sunday. Among the entertainers who joined Pete were Bob Gibson, Josh White Jr., Rory Block, John Guth, & Patsy Margolin. I have many photos of the event. When you compare those days to now, you get the impression that the good ship Clearwater has been hijacked and forced to change course. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: Hudson River Revival
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 09:26 PM

Good point, Sol. I do not know. But legend has it that Pete always kept the Carnegie Hall concert in a range that was affordable by the working folks.   More I know not.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Hudson River Revival
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 09:30 PM

Pete never really "ran" the festival.   He was an adviser, and one that most people listened to, but just like the Clearwater he was merely the conduit.

Subject: RE: Hudson River Revival
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 10:25 PM

I wish to apologize--Just went through the Website, and there is one use of the word "folk".

I wished only to point out that going to this festival to hear folk music is apt to lead to disappointment. That's not to say that it's a bad festival--if what they have is what you want, I'm sure you'll have a fine time.

Subject: RE: Hudson River Revival
From: EBarnacle
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 09:21 AM

Pete is still with us. He is not in charge but his opinions are definitely heard. As he said when we spoke, his memory is not what it was. He is physically in reasonable shape and he is semiretired from active performing. When he is on stage, he makes it a point to have backup with him. He spent time on stage with many of the 'pop folk' performers during the festival.

To say that Pete would dissaprove of the festival, as festival, is to do him a disservice. His musical interests are much more catholic than most people give him credit for. If you go to his published works, you will find that his material is often based in classical or religious music. He has expressed interest in rap and hip-hop.

In comment on the other issue raised, Clearwater is clearly taking a different musical direction than it used to. This is partly a function of staff interest and board involvement and partly a function of issues discussed above. If you take an education sail on the boat, you will hear the Clearwater you remember. As I indicated above, it's there, you just have to look for it.

Subject: RE: Hudson River Revival
From: EBarnacle
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 09:30 PM

We had a pretty good festival this year. The issues continue to go on. Here's something from the Boston Globe in a similar vein.


Struggling Newport fest gets less folky
By Geoff Edgers, Globe Staff | August 5, 2005

On a stage where folk music sounded its most unforgettable notes --where a long-haired teenager named Joan Baez launched her career, where Bob Dylan's anthem, ''Blowin' In the Wind," galvanized the growing Vietnam War protest movement, and where Dylan returned to perform a famous, electrified performance -- tomorrow the punk rock band the Pixies will play for the very first time.

They've been added to the bill of the legendary Newport Folk Festival, which is scheduling performers who aren't products of the crunchy-granola folk scene as it struggles to remain financially viable in an ever-tightening concert market.

''The name of the game is to survive," says George Wein, 79, who founded the festival. ''If you can't survive, what is the point? You just go home and play your records. I don't think I'm ready to go home and play my records."

Wein has never heard the Pixies. But his staff has told him the band -- playing what's being advertised as its first-ever acoustic set -- will sell tickets.

That's crucial for Newport, which helped launch the careers of Baez, Dylan, and countless others, but has found itself reaching outside the folk world in hopes of drawing a younger crowd -- and earning enough to cover its roughly $1 million budget.

Known as much for his business acumen as his music programming, Wein isn't ashamed to admit that he's also driven by a desire to impress the festival's new sponsor, Dunkin' Donuts. First timers at Newport this year include the Pixies, new wave icon Elvis Costello, and indie rock darlings Bright Eyes. Ray Lamontagne and M. Ward, singer-songwriters more likely to play rock clubs than coffeehouses, are also on the bill. Folk stalwarts Peter Yarrow and Odetta are being pushed to side stages or to lower-profile times of the day.

To break even, the Newport Folk Festival, the bulk of which takes place tomorrow and Sunday by the water at Fort Adams State Park, must draw about 12,500 people over the weekend. That's been a struggle in recent years, and even now, with the Pixies, Wein is still nervous. As of earlier this week, he said the festival has sold 8,000 tickets.

Newport is not alone in its struggle. The Philadelphia Folk Festival, founded in 1962, has faced shrinking revenues in recent years. In the '90s, the festival, which takes place the last weekend of August, consistently finished with profits as high as $300,000. That money went to pay for school programs run by the festival's nonprofit parent organization.

In the last five years, the festival has just broken even. That's sparked talk of bringing in sponsors, once considered heresy in the anti-corporate folk world. David Baskin, chairman of the Philadelphia Folk Festival, understands the pressures facing Wein. He has also heard folkies criticizing the festival.

''The question now is, is it a folk festival or is it just a group of concerts?" Baskin says.

Wein, in fact, said that festival organizers have talked, in recent years, about dropping ''folk" from its title. For now, they've decided to hold off, knowing the festival once defined the spirit of the genre during its first incarnation, from 1959 to 1970. But by 1971, Wein canceled the festival and moved his company to New York City. He continued producing shows, including the still-popular New Orleans Jazz & Heritage Festival.
When Wein relaunched the folk festival, in 1986, he put a greater emphasis on getting big-name headliners. The Indigo Girls and James Taylor helped attract as many as 9,000 people a day. Wein also shifted the concert schedule. In the '60s, shows took place at night. The modern festival would run from late morning until early evening.

That left no time for the informal, intimate workshops that defined the culture of the festival in the '60s and angered some fans.
Mark Moss, the editor of the folk magazine Sing Out!, has never liked the new routine.

''A folk festival shouldn't be a string of concert performances by artists helicoptered in behind a stage and then helicoptered out," Moss said last week. ''If that's all there is, let me go see them at [Harvard University's] Sanders Theatre, where it's a much more comfortable experience. I don't have a pressing need or desire to either sit out in hundred-degree sun or torrential downpours."

Wein's recruitment of a corporate sponsor -- starting with Ben & Jerry's in 1988 -- also rankled some Newport followers.
''It's disturbing we live in a culture that has to change the name of the event to justify the means of sponsorship," says Arlo Guthrie, who debuted his most famous song, ''Alice's Restaurant Massacree," at the festival in 1969. ''I would love to see it just called the Newport Folk Festival, and you wouldn't have to change the name every few years."

But Guthrie, who appears in a special concert today at the festival's Newport Casino show, also defends Wein, and says in general the changes were inevitable. ''He's not only a good guy, he's a good businessman." Guthrie says.

What's astounding about Newport, observers say, is that Wein has managed to keep a major, commercial folk festival alive.

Folk music as a genre is so marginalized that Billboard magazine, which charts, among other categories, rap, country, Latin, comedy, and electronic albums, doesn't keep track of folk sales. But Billboard is considering creating a new ''Americana" chart, which speaks to Newport's drive to broaden its own lineup, says Geoff Mayfield, the magazine's director of charts.

''Lyle Lovett is Americana," he said. ''Some Mary Chapin Carpenter albums. Steve Earle. It's roots music that doesn't have a home somewhere else. And I would think folk music would be in there."

The Pixies certainly wouldn't. But Nalini Jones, who programs Newport, believes the band can draw new ticket buyers. At 34, she remembers listening to a copy of the 1987 Pixies album, ''Come On Pilgrim," while a student at Amherst College.

Earlier this year, one of her colleagues heard from a promoter that the band, which re-formed last year after breaking up in 1992, was interested in doing an acoustic set at Newport. Signed only a few weeks ago, the Pixies will play tomorrow.

Response to the news, Jones says, has been mixed, particularly during her promotional visits to folk radio stations.
Pat Monteith, general manager of folk radio station WUMB-FM (91.9), was one of the folkies caught off guard.

''There was definitely an eyebrow raised," says Monteith, who described the Pixies as too much of a stretch to include in next month's Boston Folk Festival, which she programs.

Elvis Costello is less of a gamble, she says. Costello has headlined Wein's New Orleans Jazz & Heritage Festival, another event that has broadened its artist base over the years. On his current tour, Costello has been playing a mix of originals and songs by country artists such as the Stanley Brothers, George Jones, and Gram Parsons. He believes in the crossing over of rock and folk.

''Seems to me, that the worlds are moving closer together rather than one invading the other," Costello wrote in an e-mail. ''I believe that music is connected by human passions and curiosities rather than by marketing strategies."

Then, Costello alluded to the questions of acoustic versus electric performance: ''We are thinking of adopting solar power for our Newport appearance."

It's a joking reference, of course, to the famous Newport moment, in 1965, when then-folkie Dylan went electric. As legend has it, Dylan's set so enraged folk singer Pete Seeger, that Seeger tried to cut the power with an ax. Seeger, in fact, has always loved Dylan. He just thought the sound mix was too muddy, he said last week in a phone interview.

''You couldn't understand a word, and he was singing a very good song, 'Maggie's Farm,' " says Seeger, 86. ''I was so angry, I said, 'Damn, if I had an ax, I'd cut the cable.' The sound man thought I didn't like electric music and passed it on to others."

Seeger has never heard the Pixies. But he's fine with their playing the festival.
''Frankly, I'm in favor of mixing things up," he says.

Geoff Edgers can be reached at [e-mail].

© Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company

Subject: RE: Hudson River Revival
From: CapriUni
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 10:05 PM

Glad to hear the Revival is still doing well, EBarnacle. My mother (Angela Magill) was president of Clearwater Pete Seeger first proposed the idea, and she supported him when he brought the idea before the board.

I am now living out of state (in Virginia), so have not attended a Revival in many years. But I have fond memories of the event, and of the people I've met up with there (and the good food! ;-)). As far as I am concerned, the Revival isn't so much about "folk music" as it is about the living culture and heritage of the Hudson and its people. This includes music (of all genres) as well as politics, art, and good, old community feeling. Whatever brings the people together is true to its spirit.