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Fahrenheit 9/11 responses

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DougR 10 Jul 04 - 05:58 PM
Amos 10 Jul 04 - 06:36 PM
Nerd 10 Jul 04 - 06:49 PM
Bill D 10 Jul 04 - 06:50 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 10 Jul 04 - 07:34 PM
kendall 11 Jul 04 - 01:50 PM
DougR 11 Jul 04 - 02:49 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 11 Jul 04 - 07:13 PM
Don Firth 11 Jul 04 - 07:39 PM
kendall 11 Jul 04 - 07:56 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 11 Jul 04 - 08:15 PM
SINSULL 11 Jul 04 - 09:48 PM
Little Hawk 11 Jul 04 - 10:15 PM
GUEST,TIA 11 Jul 04 - 10:47 PM
Nerd 12 Jul 04 - 12:39 AM
Teribus 12 Jul 04 - 03:21 AM
Nerd 12 Jul 04 - 10:56 AM
curmudgeon 12 Jul 04 - 11:28 AM
Metchosin 12 Jul 04 - 11:30 AM
GUEST,Teribus 12 Jul 04 - 12:23 PM
GUEST,Teribus 12 Jul 04 - 12:38 PM
Jeri 12 Jul 04 - 01:26 PM
Metchosin 12 Jul 04 - 01:38 PM
Nerd 12 Jul 04 - 09:48 PM
Nerd 12 Jul 04 - 10:36 PM
LadyJean 13 Jul 04 - 12:34 AM
GUEST,Teribus 13 Jul 04 - 01:47 AM
Metchosin 13 Jul 04 - 04:00 AM
GUEST,Teribus 13 Jul 04 - 08:01 AM
Nerd 13 Jul 04 - 10:52 AM
Wolfgang 13 Jul 04 - 11:11 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 13 Jul 04 - 11:14 AM
Jim Dixon 13 Jul 04 - 11:44 AM
Amos 13 Jul 04 - 02:47 PM
beardedbruce 13 Jul 04 - 02:50 PM
Amos 13 Jul 04 - 02:59 PM
beardedbruce 13 Jul 04 - 03:14 PM
Nerd 13 Jul 04 - 08:16 PM
GUEST,Peter Woodruff 13 Jul 04 - 08:27 PM
GUEST,TIA 13 Jul 04 - 09:15 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 13 Jul 04 - 11:18 PM
GUEST,Teribus 14 Jul 04 - 04:29 AM
Nerd 14 Jul 04 - 09:14 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 14 Jul 04 - 09:38 AM
beardedbruce 16 Jul 04 - 05:20 AM
GUEST,TIA 16 Jul 04 - 07:32 AM
DougR 16 Jul 04 - 08:53 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 16 Jul 04 - 10:48 PM
Little Hawk 16 Jul 04 - 11:11 PM
rich-joy 17 Jul 04 - 05:56 AM
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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: DougR
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 05:58 PM

Right, Amos, Moore is a paragan of virtue (and also a mighty rich man).

Nerd: yes, the flights were approved at the highest level of authority: Bush basher, Richard Clarke.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 06:36 PM

C'mon Doug. Don't be childish. I never said that, I don't think it, and if he is rich it wasn't based on favors from Washington, but on effective film production and sales.

But I do have to acknowledge that the man has balls to stand up and make himself White House Enemy number one, for a while. I am glad he's still alive. It was awful hard to hear any clear thinking at all before Mister Moore stepped up and balanced the speaker circuits a little.

A


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 06:49 PM

DougR,

yes, it was Clarke. But recall that Clarke was a high-ranking member of the Bush administration at the time, not a "Bush-basher." He ultimately left precisely because he could not stomach decisions like these.
Bush fans amuse me, in that on the one hand they like to paint a picture of Bush as "in control" during the crisis, but then blame every single decision on somebody else. It was the CIA/FBI/Pentagon/Clarke that screwed up. All Bush did was do what the CIA/FBI/Pentagon/Clarke told him! Can't blame a man for that!

Why point out that Moore makes money, DougR? As a Bush supporter you obviously don't object to wealth, so what point are you making? I don't quite get it.


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 06:50 PM

wouldn't it be 'interesting' if Rush Limbaugh made documentaries? The world can stand, and needs all points of view, not just right wing shouting.

(Remember what Pete Seeger said when asked about the song "Waist Deep in the Big Muddy"? ....(paraphrased) "I didn't name anyone...I'm just a shoemaker. I go around the world making shoes...and if the shoe fits...."


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 07:34 PM

I love the Pete Seeger line---and, sadly, the song fits (as do many of Phil Ochs' pieces) todays tragic situation. In fact I played it on my program recently for just that reason.

Though we have not a big fool today---sizewise anyway,.

What I really wanted to post about was that aside from all the other books that have come out about Bush, Iraq, etc; I interviewed the author of The Bushes---History of a Dynasty. This is a really interesting and supposedly "neutral" book. My take---and I did get the author to sort of lean that way---was the W is not the "brightest bulb in the drawer" and, unlike his father, has less leadership and control quality. A reason why CHeney is where he is today---and the old Sr. Bush crowd.   

Given the rest of this truly interesting history of the family going back to very early days you come to realize that they feel a sense of ownership of this nation. They accumulate the wealth and power and all others are relegated to keeping the structure in place.

One does have to admit, however, the intellect of senior is light years ahead of Jr.    He, too, at least, served the nation in combat---as did Kerry. As did JFK, as did LaGuardia, as did Grant, and of course we cannot forget dear old Geo. W of the wooden teeth.   Jr., well, we know of him do we not.

Let me relate a brief anecdote from the book and interview that might put Bush/Clinton into persepective. The author claims that W so honors the office of Pres. that he puts on a suit and tie when entering the oval office---even at midnight.    Clinton, he despises, for dishonoring the office ( as did JFK, FDR, Jackson,etc---in that sense). In Moore's film there is a shot of the younger W (while Sr. was Pres.) sitting like a hot shot with boots on and putting them on the Oval Office desk while talking with dear old dad. So---hyprocisy, too, runs rampant within the Bush persona. I gues he should be excused because it was before he found----what the hell ever it was he found. Who was it that said---and I quote: " Should we be proud because he stopped being a falling down drunk and finding God?"

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: kendall
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 01:50 PM

Doug, Rush got rich spouting lies and half truths so why not Moore stretching the truth a bit?

I just saw the film, and although I didn't really learn anything, it reaffirms my disgust for that whole crooked lying gang.

If some right wing asshole ever tells me to my face that I hate America he will be in for one hell of a surprise! I LOVE AMERICA...I DETEST GEORGE BUSH.


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: DougR
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 02:49 PM

Kendall: It is not I, or you, that hate America. It's Michael Moore. I'm sure you are aware of his interview with (I believe)the Times or Guardian in London where he is quoted as stating that Americans are the dumbest people in the world. That America deserves to be disliked, etc.

Nerd: I don't mind if MM earns a billion dollars or more from his films. More power to him I say! It just seems so out of character to me, though, to have the flaming liberals who love to hate wealthy people, and particularly big rich corporations, idolize one of them.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 07:13 PM

Nothing wrong with making a bundle. The question is how did you accumulate it?   Corporate shenanigans, selling out your own people for oil, tax evasion, racketeering? Or---by making films in what you perceive to be truth and people buy your tickets, being an honest corporate magnate who cares about his/her employees, or some such nefarious ilk?

Not really a tough question to answer and also know to which people I am referring.


Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 07:39 PM

Doug, I don't think Michael Moore hates America. He could easily go and live on the French Riviera (and let his mother turn his picture to the wall) if he chose to. What he hates (if he hates anything at all) is what the Bush administration is doing to the country. Apparently it has never occurred to you that one can love one's country, but dislike its rulers and their policies, both foreign and domestic.

And as to whether or not Americans are the dumbest people in the world, it's possible to make a pretty strong case by pointing out that only about half of the registered voters can be bothered to get up off their flabby fannies and go out and vote, and half of those who did voted for someone as obviously unqualified as George W. Bush.

And I think you'll find that most people in the world don't hate Americans. In fact, many like and admire Americans (this from people I know who travel a lot). They do intensly dislike aspects of American foreign policy and the way America tries to exploit and bully the rest of the world. And that is directly traceable to America's government and the behavior of American corporations that operate in foreign countries.

It doesn't have to be this way. In fact, the world--and America--would be a lot happier and better off if we learned to live in cooperation with the rest of the world instead of constantly playing the schoolyard bully.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: kendall
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 07:56 PM

Doug, what you said shows no evidence that MM hates America. I know a few conservatives personally and you all have the same blind spot. You equate disagreement with Bush with hate for America. I love America, I hate what the Bush gang is doing to her. What is so hard to understand? Why are you so unable to see that this incompetent lying phony coward has feet of clay?


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 08:15 PM

I re-iterate---listen to Moore's closing statement. A great follow-up to Orwell's great perception in 1984.


Unfortunately, perhaps I am a pessimist, I think that we have gone down that road and we cannot return. Or, better yet, the world has gone down that road---Genocide and hatred seems to reign all over---even more than in the dark years of the 1940s.

Humanity, as always, has to try to change this suicidal course. The Bushies surely won't----too much at personal stake. We go back to oil and involvement for their interests. Not that of humanity. Just think Sudan, Rwanda, etc;   Lip service.   Our people die for the causes espoused by the people that Moore speaks of.   Now we are back to Orwell and Big Brother.

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 09:48 PM

I saw it today - Bush came off pretty badly, an ineffectual dolt who rode his Daddy's coattails to office. He doesn't help himself with that "deer in the headlights" panic that crosses his face at odd moments. That contrasted with the proud and grief-stricken parents who live what he preaches - well...

But it was no worse than what I expected. Moore doesn't even try to pretend that he is being objective. And none of the information presented was shockingly new to me. I was once again outraged, however, at the disgrace of the 2000 voting scandal and "election". Damn!


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 10:15 PM

To hate present-day American government policy IS to love America, as far as I'm concerned. And when Michael Moore said Americans were "dumb", I suspect he meant misinformed...which many Americans are.


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 10:47 PM

DougR, when you use the phrase "the flaming liberals who love to hate wealthy people" you reveal that you really dont' do your own thinking. Instead, you are jousting a straw man created by your Pope Rush.


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: Nerd
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 12:39 AM

DougR,

There are very few liberals who "hate wealthy people." What liberals tend to hate is corporate interests that act as though the good of wealthy people is more important than the good of non-wealthy people. Particularly if a person becomes wealthy through hard work and creativity, and uses that wealth in a responsible way, few liberals will have a problem with that.

My father is both fairly wealthy AND a liberal. He supports a more progressive tax structure even though he would have to pay more taxes. He thinks it would be worth in order to transfer the "tax relief" to the people for whom the "tax burden" is truly burdensome. If I ever become wealthy (I have siblings, so inheritance won't do it, alas!) it will not change my politics.

I never have hated the wealthy. I just dislike the selfish.


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 03:21 AM

"On that clip of Bush in the classroom on 9/11/2001, when he was told about the attack on the World Trade Center, no one (Moore wasn't there when that clip was filmed) directed Bush to look scared, bewildered, shifty-eyed, and completely at a loss as to what to do. He did that all by himself." - Don Firth's opinions.

Interesting Don, what were your immediate reactions to those events Don?

I can clearly remember mine - completely shocked and horrified. My initial thoughts were that it was the result of some ghastly technical malfunction, particularly when the second plane struck, I thought that something has gone wrong with the automatic landing system at NY, and that the pilots realised it too late to deselect automatic landing and take evasive action.


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: Nerd
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 10:56 AM

Oh, come on, Teribus! You thought the automatic landing system somehow misdirected two different planes so each one would strike a different tower of the world trade center from a different side? That would have been a preposterous coincidence. And you believed that after it had happened once, a second pilot would not have been alert enough to notice it was happening again?

No, get real. When the second plane struck it became clear to me that this was an attack.

Secondly, these planes were not landing at NY. They were flights from Boston to LA that had disappeared from radar screens for forty-five minutes only to appear again by crashing into the WTC. They were not utilizing the automatic landing system. Both had registered suspicious microphone activity, both had cut themselves off from contact with air traffic control. As a cilvilian, you did not know these things yet. As President, Bush would have been told. It was crystal-clear to the government at that time that these were hijacked planes.


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: curmudgeon
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 11:28 AM

For those who wish to verify Moore's veracity, here's a link to the factuality page at his website -- Tom


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: Metchosin
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 11:30 AM

As Bush wasn't watching the events unfold on TV, maybe Teribus thought Bush's informer had leaned over to tell him that there had been a technical malfunction with the automatic landing system of two planes, resulting in them accidentally hitting the trade centre. LOL

My initial reaction after watching them was, "Oh god! please let calmer heads prevail, there's going to be hell to pay in the world for this!" Wasn't far off the mark, either.


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 12:23 PM

No, you come on, Nerd:

Point 1.
As the BBC switched to live coverage supplied by US networks that morning, and that didn't happen until AFTER the first plane struck. We here in the UK had no way of knowing what side of the building had been struck. But as the fire spread we did watch the second plane strike.

Point 2.
CNN live coverage AFTER the first plane struck did not identify the aircraft, so there was no information regarding what their flight numbers were and what the destinations of the aircraft were. No mention at the time the second aircraft struck regarding, flights that had disappeared from radar screens, no mention of suspicious microphone activity, or the fact that they were not in contact with air traffic control. There was at that time no mention of hijacked aircraft, not on CNN, not on BBC.

Are you saying that when the second plane struck it was clear to you that it was an attack? Maybe someone should have a word with you about that. Or are you just looking at it with 20 x 20 hindsight, even after the second plane struck there was no mention of it being a terrorist attack - that all came later.

"As a cilvilian, you did not know these things yet." But you say it was clear to you?

"As President, Bush would have been told." Told what? First that an aircraft had crashed into one of the WTC Towers. It was not until after the second aircraft struck that any other interpretation was being put on things and that was not broadcast by the media.

"It was crystal-clear to the government at that time that these were hijacked planes." What all of the members of the government? or just some of its members? or just those people immediately involved with handling the situation?


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 12:38 PM

No, Metchosin, in my post I described what MY reaction was to what I was watching, and asked Don what his initial reaction was.

Interestingly enough, like Nerd, your initial reaction, as described by yourself, as you saw the second aircraft strike was, "Oh god! please let calmer heads prevail, there's going to be hell to pay in the world for this!" - Now at 9.30 that morning what grounds did you have for thinking that?


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 01:26 PM

One plane hitting a building could have been an accident. When the second one struck, it was pretty clear to me it was intentional.


Roughly 36 hours before the attacks, I'd remarked to someone "I just hope Bush doesn't get us into a war." As I watched the horrors play out on September 11th, I saw the possibility that Bush would use this as an excuse to start a war. I didn't think it was likely, though. I didn't think the citizens of the U.S. or the rest of the world would stand for it.

The threads start here:
World Trade Center-Unreal Disaster

And Big Mick, on 11 Sep '01 at 10:49, wrote:
"Today we are forced down a path that will visit enough tragedy on this world that will make the one we are witnessing seem as only an opening gambit...........I am afraid, Anna my dear friend, because I have seen this before.............and I know what is coming.........and I am crying at the thought of it, and for those already dead................fucking insanity........."


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: Metchosin
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 01:38 PM

they've been my next door neighbour for close to sixty years, would you believe, just a guess.....


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: Nerd
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 09:48 PM

Teribus,

This is not one of your smarter arguments. In fact, you're one of the few people I know who could argue that because I was right about something and you were wrong, that proves you are smarter than me. Yes, I knew it was a terrorist attack. I was right. You were still thinking "humm, maybe the automatic landing system is out of whack." You were wrong. I'd say that in this case, makes MY ability to see the truth of the situation stronger than yours, not the other way around.

Are you saying that when the second plane struck it was clear to you that it was an attack? Maybe someone should have a word with you about that. Or are you just looking at it with 20 x 20 hindsight, even after the second plane struck there was no mention of it being a terrorist attack - that all came later.

All I can say is I was here in the US, you were not. Even after the FIRST plane hit, people on the street, on the bus, and in my office were saying, "my god, a plane just hit the World Trade Center! I bet it's a terrorist attack."   After the second plane hit, EVERYONE was saying it. Just because they weren't going there on CNN, doesn't mean it wasn't the scuttlebutt all over the US.

Look, the WTC was known to be a target for international terrorists. Our embassies had been bombed, our warships had been bombed. The WTC itself had been bombed (at a time when I worked at one chase plaza, about a block away).

And the alternate explanation YOU describe--a technical glitch--is ludicrous.

"As a cilvilian, you did not know these things yet." But you say it was clear to you?

No, these other details about the flight, which made it even more clear, were not known to me. I just knew it was a terrorist attack because that was the most logical conclusion to come to. But these other details WERE known to Bush.


CNN live coverage AFTER the first plane struck did not identify the aircraft, so there was no information regarding what their flight numbers were and what the destinations of the aircraft were. No mention at the time the second aircraft struck regarding, flights that had disappeared from radar screens, no mention of suspicious microphone activity, or the fact that they were not in contact with air traffic control. There was at that time no mention of hijacked aircraft, not on CNN, not on BBC.

"As President, Bush would have been told." Told what? First that an aircraft had crashed into one of the WTC Towers. It was not until after the second aircraft struck that any other interpretation was being put on things and that was not broadcast by the media.


Good God, listen to you! The minute that first plane hit, air traffic control was determining what plane it was and where it had come from. ATC already knew about an LA bound jumbo jet being miles off its flight plan, about its cutting off contact, about its suspicious mic activity, etc, etc. That stuff was known to them as it happened. Once the crash occurred, it would take about two seconds to connect those dots. They CERTAINLY would know it wasn't a plane on the auto landing system, since those planes would all be still chattering away with them. So they knew what was happening at air traffic.

Now, do you think they report this shit straight to CNN and the BBC before the law enforcement or intelligence communities? If you love news so much, here's some: Bush has sources of information you don't have! He has intelligence people precisely so he can learn these things BEFORE you find out about them on the TV News. And since the air traffic folks already knew all of this when the first plane struck, it's ridiculous to assume just because Teribus doesn't know something that Bush's intelligence people don't know it.


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: Nerd
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 10:36 PM

Teribus,

just look at the link Jeri provides. It will show that US based 'catters saw terrorism as the most likely scenario from the outset. And indeed, Bush had announced that it was likely a terrorist attack by 9:30, after he finished his school photo-op.

Metchosin's reaction was a natural one.


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: LadyJean
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 12:34 AM

Bush sitting with those children, looking the way he did, left an impression. It's entertaining to listen to his supporters try to defend him. HE SAT THERE LIKE A LUMP! Can you imagine Lincoln doing that when he got the news of Fort Sumpter, or Roosevelt when he learned about Pearl Harbor.
The fact that we know almost nothing about what Bush did on 9/11, except make a very stupid speech, has always left me wondering. Did he spend that day worshipping the porcelain god?

The other scene that made an impression was when Lila Lipscombe was standing in front of the White House. The woman in the red coat, who belittled her loss, please tell me where I can find her, so I can slap her silly.
I know a lot of people like this woman. Her children go to college using funds that were meant for Lila Lipscombe's kids. They drive there in S.U.Vs. She treats store clerks, waitresses, and of course her cleaning woman, as if they were automatons, specially created to serve her. She sees the luxuries she enjoys as rights, which she has earned. If the woman who made her red coat earned 50cents for making it, and the clerk who sold it to her was paid $7.00 to stand and wait while she decided to buy it, it's because they were lazy, and undeserving. She, who, if she works, got her job through friends or family, believes herself to be more deserving, more worthy than the rest of the world, with the exception, of course of her precious offspring, and, perhaps, her husband.
She's probably still angry at Mrs. Lipscombe for making her look like a bitch. She's probably made a bunch of nasty remarks about Mrs. Lipscombe's weight, her clothes, and her family. I suspect she's used the word trailor trash.
Please tell me where I can find this woman, so I can tell her that she's trash.


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 01:47 AM

What a pity you weren't working for CIA, FBI, or NSA at the time Nerd - you could have prevented it all.

By all accounts what the President was told that morning was that an aircraft had crashed into one of the WTC Towers, simply that, nothing more - his immediate reaction to that news was that it must have been an accident. It was only after the second incident that he was informed that the country was under attack.


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: Metchosin
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 04:00 AM

Guest Teribus, what a ridiculous comment, "comprehension" and "control" are not synonymous.

No matter how you care to interpret Bush's response, if he could only initially "comprehend" the "incident" as an "accident" and that's was the only scenario he could come up with, in his little pea brain, it's understanable to me that many, quite rightly, consider him a very dim bulb indeed. This is a reasonable level of "comprehension" for a world leader?


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 08:01 AM

Yes Nerd I did indeed check Jeri's link, with the following results, in chronological order:

Catspaw49 - 09:06 - AFTER second plane hits he ASKS .....Terrorists?

Alice - 09:11 - Only comments on the event, states nothing with regard to possible cause.

The one and only Dai - 09:18 - provides a reference to a link in which it states:
"Terrorist is SUSPECTED with second plane crash APPEARING to dive deliberately into the Tower. There is a report one of the planes had been hijacked."

Catspaw49 - 09:25 - Sure is already Beginning to look like Terrorist attacks.

Bit different to what you contend - but both you and Metchosin KNEW it was a terrorist attack when the first plane hit. Did either of you call it in - you had at least 18 minutes start on the rest of the population.


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: Nerd
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 10:52 AM

Teribus, don't be an ass. We all thought it was a terrorist attack and were right. You rather ridiculously thought it was a technical malfunction and were wrong. I can understand your feeling foolish about this but don't try to make US the dupes.

By the way, Dai's link contradicts you, that even after the second plane hit no-one was mentioning hijacked aircraft in the news (you claimed this in point 2 at 12 Jul 04 - 12:23 PM). If it was up on the web already at 9:18, you can be sure the person writing it was working on it as soon as the second plane hit.

Bit different to what you contend - but both you and Metchosin KNEW it was a terrorist attack when the first plane hit. Did either of you call it in - you had at least 18 minutes start on the rest of the population.

My point is we didn't. Everybody was saying it was probably terrorists on the street and on the bus on my way to work that morning, BEFORE the second plane hit. Once the second plane hit, most people were pretty sure. I repeat, I was here and you were not. You just don't know what you're talking about. I also repeat, we became sure WHEN the second plane hit, not before.

Let's revisit that. Your claim is both you and Metchosin KNEW it was a terrorist attack when the first plane hit.

Try reading our posts next time. Metchosin said My initial reaction after watching them was, "Oh god! please let calmer heads prevail, there's going to be hell to pay in the world for this!" Wasn't far off the mark, either.

Didja see that, T-Bird? After watching THEM. So he was talking about after the SECOND plane, not the first.

I said When the second plane struck it became clear to me that this was an attack.

See? I too was talking about the SECOND plane. You can bluster and blather all you want, but don't try to bullshit us about we ourselves said!

Now on to your claim re: the film

By all accounts what the President was told that morning was that an aircraft had crashed into one of the WTC Towers, simply that, nothing more - his immediate reaction to that news was that it must have been an accident. It was only after the second incident that he was informed that the country was under attack.

Only problem with this is you've misunderstood what was in the film. Bush was informed about the first plane BEFORE he went into the classroom. What we saw on film WAS Bush being informed that the second plane had hit. In your words above, "he was informed that the country was under attack." But he went through about twenty minutes of photo-op, seven of them reading My Pet Goat, before he did anything. That was kind of Moore's point all along.

Really, Teribus, it's tedious arguing about a film with someone who doesn't bother to see it and doesn't bother to read our previous posts and thus doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 11:11 AM

just look at the link Jeri provides. It will show that US based 'catters saw terrorism as the most likely scenario from the outset. (Nerd)

The thread had been started after the second plane hit and not before. Nerd's expression 'from the outset' must be read with a grain of salt, for it can easily be read as misleading.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 11:14 AM

You are all missing the point with Bush's reaction, especially Terribus.

Of course people were confused. Personally, when the first plane hit, I thought it was an accident. Here in the NYC area the reports were mixed, some saying it was a small commuter plane. I think most of realized that something bigger was happening when the second plane hit.

The point is, you and I can be confused. It is not our job to comprehend. The president is a different story.   Based on the memo he received a month earlier, and based on the reports that the air traffic controls HAD ALREADY RECEIVED about planes being hijacked, Bush should have had a clue. Excuses to Bushes reaction have included confusion, lack of comprehension, cell phones that did not work, not wanting to scare the kids, among others. The FACT is that the leader of the United States MUST be better informed AND prepared to take action. Bush clearly is not that person. If it was his support staff that failed, that does not make it better. We deserve a president that can handle such a crisis.   Bush failed.


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 11:44 AM

You might enjoy The Onion's take on this:

"Michael Moore's documentary Fahrenheit 9/11 has broken box-office records, but some Bush supporters say it's flawed. What is the basis of their objections?"

Click here for 'Infographic'.


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 02:47 PM

Bill:

Tribal-think works that way. It is not the instance of the knwoedgeable indivgidual reaching a considered conclusion, but of the tribal recruit reciting the mantras fo the tribe. Thought of the group is the "right"htought, anything else is an aberration. Given this premise, evidence is not required.

A


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 02:50 PM

Amos,

Yes, very true. I have noticed it whenever I have conversation with SRS or Bobert. SOmetimes the rest of you, as well.


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 02:59 PM

I don't think we're talking about the same thing. I was speaking about the inarticulate impulse Bill H describes to slam the movie without having seen it, and allow no discourse based on facts or even the fair exchange of opinions. He was describing his amazement at the virulence he observed in these responses.

As far as I know of Bobert and SRS,either one of them will be more than happy to discuss any set of facts you can come up with.


A


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 03:14 PM

Not quite. Any facts I bring up have to come from a properly "reliable" source, or SRS will not even deign to read them. My experience with them has been that they "allow no discourse based on facts or even the fair exchange of opinions." I was told by SRS that I had to concede the points she wanted to make prior to her even discussing what evidence she might have had. In addition, they have made personal attacks upon me. If you want ena example of virulence, just look at the postings about me that SRS has made. They seem only interested in asserting that their opinions are the only acceptable truth, and no-one is entitled to have any opinions that conflict with what they want to be.

I do not claim that neocons are any different- but it seems to me that a number of the liberals here have demonstrated the worst attributes of those that they are criticizing. I thought that, just as the US is held to a higher standard, there would be at least the immage that the left was in some way above the tactics that they have utilized.


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: Nerd
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 08:16 PM

Hi Wolfgang,

I was not being misleading. My point is as I made it in the last post above. Once the second plane hit, most Americans were intuitive enough to believe that it was a terrorist attack. Even after only one plane hit, it was being discussed as a probable explanation. It was Teribus who invented the fantasy that I or Metchosin claimed we knew after the first plane hit.

Wolfgang, with respect I don't think YOU were here that morning either. I was on my way to work when the first plane hit, and believe me, terrorists were being discussed on the bus! It's a simple fact: most americans thought terrorists Might Be or Were responsible (depending on their inclinations) after the first plane hit, and most people were pretty sure it was terrorists after the second plane hit.

People thousands of miles away keep saying it wasn't so, but you guys weren't here. All I can tell you is what was going on on the 34 in West Philly, and on the streets of Camden, NJ. We suspected after the first plane hit, and knew after the second plane hit.

One thing that was different: reports reached me after the first plane was known to be a jumbo jet, so there was not the initial confusion Ron Olesko describes. I heard it from a guy on the bus who was listening to the news on a walkman. I may have gotten the news ten minutes later than those very first reports.

But this makes no difference. By the time Bush was informed about the second plane, which we can all see in the Moore film, Bush in Teribus's own words "was informed that the country was under attack."

Teribus was trying to argue that Bush didn't know the country was under attack at the time of Moore's footage because that was only the first plane.

He was wrong. It was the second plane.

So by Teribus's own admission Bush DID find out, in that footage, that we were under attack, and THAT's when he proceeded to do NOTHING. All the rest of this about who knew what when is a smokescreen Teribus set up to distract us from the question: why did bush delay and hedge and look shifty for so long before doing anything?


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 08:27 PM

He must have known that the genie was out of the bottle...bush probably pissed himself.

Peter


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 09:15 PM

BeardedBruce - with all due respect, in this, and numerous other threads, I believe you have been repeatedly distorting a point that SRS tried to make some weeks ago in another thread. It's not hypocritical at all to carefully consider the source of an assertion. In fact it is required for critical thinking. If Michael Moore were to write an article or make a documentary showing that W's of MD HAD actually been found, I would be inclined to believe it, not because I'm a MM acolyte, but because it dulls the ax he is grinding. Conversely, when a neocon insists that the W's of MD really have been found, I shall insist on indpendent confirmation because that is their party line. Hell, let's all insist on independent confirmation from multiple sources for *everything* rather than believing a single internet article or somesuch. (In fact, I believe this was darn close to SRS's point). SRS never told you you weren't entitled to your opinion - only suggested that she was disinclined to unquestioningly accept "facts" from your source.


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 11:18 PM

Nerd,

I beg to differ, but there was confusion after the first plane hit, at least here in the NYC area, as to the size of the plane. I remember listening to the radio and hearing an eyewitness describe it as a corporate jet, not a jumbo. Commuter plane was also used. This was in the minutes after the attack. WCBS-AM had a traffic reporter in the air when the first plane hit and he did not even describe it as a plane. His words were to the effect that there was some sort of "catastrophe" on the tower. The copter got as close to the scene as possible and described the gaping hole, fire and smoke - but he was very cautious about calling it a plane crash until it was confirmed from other sources. Except for the people who actually saw the first plane hit, there was immediate confusion. Yes, within about 5 to 10 minutes the confirmation did come in that it was a jumbo jet.

As you said, it really doesn't matter. What does matter is that there were people who knew what was going on. Look at the 9/11 report. There is still a question as to why Bush did not react.


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 04:29 AM

Nerd,

All I can state is what my initial reaction was.

The news coverage we received was via CNN and BBC, the news report on "The one and only Dai's" link came from another agency.

Good point I did miss the "them" in Metchosin's post, my apologies.

I do not believe I did miss the point regarding what they President was told and when. Evident by my post of ,13 Jul 04 - 01:47 AM:

"...what the President was told that morning was that an aircraft (i.e. THE FIRST ONE NERD) had crashed into one of the WTC Towers, simply that, nothing more - his immediate reaction to that news was that it must have been an accident. It was only after THE SECOND INCIDENT that he was informed that the country was under attack."

The above disproves your: "Teribus was trying to argue that Bush didn't know the country was under attack at the time of Moore's footage because that was only the first plane." - Quite clearly, Yes?

Now let's go to what you reckon was Moores point:

"But he went through about twenty minutes of photo-op, seven of them reading My Pet Goat, before he did anything. That was kind of Moore's point all along."

What would you have done Nerd? What would you have expected him to do? In doing what he did, he took a leaf out of Wellington's book and refused to run around like a headless chicken - as it would appear you would rather have liked him to. He got up, thanked the children and left the classroom and went and talked to his staff, who HAD been in contact with those in touch with what was going on. What would you have preferred - panic, hysteria - he displayed neither - he did appear in front of the assembled press corps at 09:29/09:30 to make a statement, he made that fairly calmly as well.


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: Nerd
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 09:14 AM

Ron,

I wasn't trying to contradict you that there was confusion. I was merely saying that I didn't experience as much of it because I heard the news ten minutes later than you, when the first plane was confirmed as a jumbo and the second had not yet hit.

Teribus,

If you meant what you now say you meant, then you're just obscuring the point again. What he was told after the first plane hit is irrelevant to the film. In the film we see him being told about the second plane and the attack. That's the only thing relevant to the film, which is what this thread is about. The whole question of what he was told after the FIRST plane hit is another of your smokescreens, diverting attention from the question: why was he so slow to act?

As to your second point, He got up, thanked the children and left the classroom you are wrong, and that's what this whole part of the film is about. The president stayed for seven minutes with the children after he heard about the second plane, then got up, went through about fifteen more minutes of photo-op, in the school, THEN left.

What I would have done, and what I would have wanted HIM to do, is get up immediately, say "I'm really sorry, kids, but I've just heard about an emergency in New York, and I need to get more information on it," and leave, calmly but quickly. The kids would have found out what was going on and probably would have forgiven him.

Nobody said he should "run around like a headless chicken," or show panic or hysteria. This is another distortion thrown around by people determined to defend Bush no matter what.


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 09:38 AM

Nerd,

Thanks for clearing that up. It was a confusing morning, especially if you were watching TV news. There were conflicting reports that as many as 7 planes were hijacked, that there were explosions in the streets of D.C., and other wrong information. It was a panic situation and the media was giving out information before they had a chance to confirm it.

Teribus,

You ask, what would "you" have done. That isn't the question to ask. I don't think any of us here on Mudcat received any votes in 2000 election, which is why we aren't sitting in the Oval Office.   The person who WAS elected FAILED to react. It is very possible that the other three planes could have been brought down before they inflicted their devestating damage. It is a hard call to make, having to shoot down a civilian airliner, but the FAA KNEW that there were several hijacked planes, one of which flew into the WTC.   Bush froze, pure and simple.   No one EVER suggested that he panic, we only suggest that he should have acted like the Commander-in-chief instead of Mr. Rogers. The movie clearly shows his glazed look AFTER being told that the second plane hit and he sat there for 7 more minutes before getting his ass out of the chair and begin acting like the president

If someone can't do their job, they should be fired.


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 05:20 AM

GUEST,TIA :

"BeardedBruce - with all due respect, in this, and numerous other threads, I believe you have been repeatedly distorting a point that SRS tried to make some weeks ago in another thread. It's not hypocritical at all to carefully consider the source of an assertion. In fact it is required for critical thinking. ..... SRS never told you you weren't entitled to your opinion - only suggested that she was disinclined to unquestioningly accept "facts" from your source. "

I beg to differ. I was told that there was NO NEED to even look at the facts I had presented, because of the source. I pointed out that I try to look at all the viewpoints presented, because ALL sides will only report those points that show their side in a favorable light. SRS refused to even consider discussuion of the facts I had brought up- even though they were of UN statements, by UN personnel. As I said, the source was not sufficiently "pure". And SRS has repeatedly told me that I am not entitled to my opinion- please look at the postings.


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 07:32 AM

Sigh


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: DougR
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 08:53 PM

For a bunch of people who profess to despise "war profiteers" you sure are high on one of the biggest profiteers of the whole shebang ...Michael Moore.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 10:48 PM

According to my dictionary:

profiteer n.
1. One who makes excessive profits on goods in short supply.

Michael M is just bringing the news. He's no more a profiteer than any editorial writer or than any of the TV networks; in fact that's where he got a lot of his stuff.

He hasn't defrauded anyone; you can see what he's selling. I don't think any of his film clips are doctored.

Not like charging for meals he hadn't delivered, say.

clint


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 11:11 PM

I never criticize people for making a profit while they are doing something worthwhile, but I object to it when they do something destructive. I believe that's one of the key points in Michael Moore's film. The Iraq war was launched for spurious reasons, in order that various people could profit hugely. Those people were mostly located in the oil industry and the military-industrial complex. They have alliegiance to no nation and are not interested in promoting either freedom or democracy anywhere. Quite the contrary. They are interested in enlarging their power and increasing their wealth, and maintaining a constant threat of war in order to strengthen their grip on society. This sort of thing was described quite well in George Orwell's "1984". It requires a compliant (meaning "bought") mainstream media...and for the most part it has had one, so far. The media is basically there just to cheerlead what the Sy$tem has already decided to do, and to keep the public fearful and confused.

The exercise of elections is held periodically to give people the impression that they have the power to effect change...but both major parties have been bought out long ago by the same basic interests...so to imagine that real change is possible under such circumstances is optimistic, to say the least.

Still, Bush's administration richly deserves to be tossed out of office, and I hope they are.


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Subject: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 responses
From: rich-joy
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 05:56 AM

and then there's also THIS idea for consideration :

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/6583/et043.html



Cheers! R-J


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