BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 09:12 PM

I think so too, Clinton. Still, he may just be the most unusual famous reclusive eccentric since Howard Hughes and Michael Jackson. A newsman's dream in other words...

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 08:43 PM

The world has GOT to have better things to concern itself with than Bobby Fischer....

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 08:24 PM

Guest Andrew Milner:

Thanks for reviving an interesting thread. You may now go back to your rubber room and dribble glass.

cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 05:16 PM

"potential worldwide support for Bobby Fischer"

There is no "worldwide" support for this idiot. He broke the law, he knew he was breaking the law, and then he cries when he is called on it.   Deal with it, the man is not someone that is going to draw public sympathy. Forget all your conspiracy theories, the man is a piece of trash.

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 09:25 PM

What a moron you are.

U.S. Jewry lies awake at night thinking when we'll go out for Chinese food next, not your bullshit.

Bush led away in handcuffs? Sounds like sour grapes that continues to divide this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: GUEST,Andrew Milner
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 08:30 PM

26 March 2005
Now Bobby Fischer's safely in Iceland, I suppose the wedding is the next headline-grabbing event. As Iceland went to so much trouble to rescue Bobby, can't see them giving him up when the US comes along with an extradition request. Guess Bobby had better stick to countries that are not friendly to the US. Plenty to chose from there. How about a re-match with dear Boris in Pyongyang? I've seen some 22-carat PR cock-ups in my time, but this one is right up there with them. Because Japanese government ministers are old and insular, and chess is not popular in Japan, the Justice Ministry and Immigration Department did not realise the potential worldwide support for Bobby Fischer. Then there is the David and Goliath factor. And giving Bush the finger is something at least half the world's population would like to do. "Bush is a war criminal and should be hung." I'm thinking a world majority could get behind that, too. Imagine Japan finally let Bobby go because talk of Japan not getting a seat on the UN Security Council was starting to get some airtime. America was forcing Japan to break its own laws, and the Diet opposition were putting it about that Japan was starting to look like America's bitch.
In the last few weeks, Japanese media has been airing documentaries showing the US in a poor light, not that you need to look that hard: Fire bombing of Tokyo, Black lynching in the South, Selma march, KFJ assignation, use of napalm in Vietnam. Haven't mentioned napalm in Iraq yet, so I guess they're saving that for when Japanese troops are pulled out. So you can lick your finger and tell which way the wind's blowing.
If Mossad is ever credibly implicated in 9/11, Bobby's currently unfashionable anti-Semitic views will become decidedly mainstream. Seriously doubt if most US citizens will appreciate the esoteric distinction between anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist when Bush and Co. are led away in handcuffs screaming "It was the Israeli Secret Service what done it". This has to be the secret fear that is keeping US Jewry awake at night, because if the 9/11 fiction starts to come unravelled, at the very least aid to Israel will be cut overnight. And perhaps this in the final analysis is why the fiction will be maintained. Look at the fall out: World economic meltdown, destruction of the State of Israel, nuclear winter, death of first born. We could be back to the horse and buggy, and naturally everyone's retirement pension will have gone down the pan.
Just so you don't run out of things to worry about.

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: GUEST,The Boss Man
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 04:31 PM

Check this site out:
www.ishipress.com/fischer1.htm

and come to your own conclusions

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 03:55 AM

whatever the conclusion, I shouldn't count on getting much sense out of the situation with BF as a determining factor

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 09:32 AM

Dick, as I have said before, several times now, it has nothing to do with his breaking the law. It is a separate issue and the reason it was discussed is because people have characterized him as a "genius" and a "wee chess player".   He is more than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: RichM
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 05:45 AM

I'm happy to live in a country that encourages me to visit whatever place on Earth I want to--and doesn't get excited if I choose, for instance, to smoke Cuban cigars.

If you are not using the freedoms guaranteed by your excellent
Constitution, maybe you could donate it to a country that could better appreciate it?

Rich McCarthy

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 12:46 AM

Ron-
I have no problems with punishing Bobby Fischer for violating the law. But what in hell does his anti-semitism have to do with it?

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:35 PM

sorry, my typing is horrible tonight. I apologize for all the mispellings.

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:32 PM

Peter, I was not trying to imply that Fischer had motives beyond the money. My point was that he could have made the money elsewhere. The rematch was a hot ticket. The fact was he chose to accept the offer to play in Yugoslavia knowing full well that he was violating the sanctions.   Sure, there are others that probably violated the sanctions and made much more than Fischer did. Unless someone has an example, I think it would be safe to say they were quiet about it. Fischer flaunted his infraction and dared the U.S. to go after him. Well, they caught him.   The U.S. should live up to it's word.

How much money could Yugoslavia have made? Well, we aren't talking the Super Bowl or World Cup, but it did SOME financial reward to the country. I would doubt that the sponsor did it for charity. If you look at the schedule of the games, you will notice that matches were held in different cities. That involves hotels for the press, potential spectators to the matches, and broadcast rights. I would be shocked if the $5 million in prize money wasn't recouped by at least twice that amount from the examples I cited.

I disagree with your point about the UN in 1992. Here is an article that includes a summary of NATO's actions in boarding and diverting ships, as well as a list of vessels from participating countries that were inforcing the sanctions:
enforcing sanctions
In fact, in 1993 Bill Clinton invoked even tighter measures - freezing assets of U.S. companies and individuals doing business with Yugoslavia.

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not a huge fan of sanctions. As I stated previously, I do think that they can hurt the people they are actually trying to help. In the case of Bobby Fischer, I keep coming back to the FACT that he knew the penalty before going in. Instead of fighting it in a court of law, or even in public debate, he flaunted his infraction.    If the US chooses to punish him, I have no proble with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 08:51 PM

Thanks for the links, Ron. Alas, one of them contained the moves in the matches, and I got a bit sidetracked! But I'll go back to them.

I don't argue that Fischer broke the sanctions, and I am disgusted that he apparently spat on the letter warning him of the consequences. But I still think it was a trivial breach against what the sanctions were intended to do, and I am still sceptical about how this match ever turned a profit in terms of foreign currency. If it did, then obviously the sanctions were breached by others, on a greater scale than Fischer's transgression.

Re Milosevic, if he were going to be indicted for his crimes up to 1992, then maybe a hundred or so other world leaders since then should also have been indicted. In 1992, as opposed to 2003, it was well recognised in international law that what a regime did within its own borders was not the business of the UN, the US or anyone else.

Another thing puzzles me Ron. If, as you imply, Fischer had some motive beyond the money, what might it have been? If he is indeed anti-semitic, what was he doing throwing in his lot with the Serbs, who fought Hitler and who even sheltered Jews? Croats in contrast, being pre-occupied with slaughtering Serbs during WW2, put their Jews on German cattletrucks bound for the camps in Poland, paying the Nazis 30 deutchmarks a head for the service. Surely they'd have been much closer to the kind of company Fischer might want to keep?

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 12:12 PM

Ron--just so you know I'm not ignoring you since I see you did post some citations--I have been busy for a few days (tiling the bathroom) so haven't read many threads, and I haven't visited your links yet. I want to take a little time to read and evaluate, but I will do so soon then I'll step back into the conversation. Thanks for following through with those.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 11:40 AM

Peter -

1) While I cannot claim to have viewed physical evidence such as birth certificates, there are numerous sources that attest to Fischer's mother being Jewish.   Check the Atlantic story that I gave a link to above.

Here is second story, from Knight Ridder -
Knight Ridder story

2) We can argue about whether Yugoslavia recouped the $3 million. Here is a story, with a NYTimes editorial attached that gives further details -
1992 - Yugoslavia


3) Peter, you obviously have an understanding of the history in Yugoslava.   However, In 1991 UN sanctions were put in place against ALL the countries and states of Yugoslavia. In May of 1992 a resolution was passed that blocked economic activities and prevented Serbia / Montenegro from participating in cultural and sporting events. It can also be said the Milosovic

Here is the United Nations webpage that highlights the various resolutions imposed upon the former Yugoslavia:

UN Resolutions

4) Was Milosovic a "monster" in 1992?   I guess it depends on how you define "monster". Read this indictment from the UN, which details their "issues" with Milosovic from the late 1980's until the late 1990's. -
Indictment

4) Turning down $3million is very hard to do. But Fisher turned down other offers in his career. (See the Atlantic article).   The question comes down to - why did he choose to play in Yugoslavia and defy the order? He knew the reprecussions and took the the chance. Now, he has to pay for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:06 AM

Ron says Fischer denied his own mother was a Jew. But does Ron know she WAS she a Jew? Or is he just guessing, as with his assertion that Yugoslavia "made the money back in terms of residuals and business"? I must say I find it unlikely that Yugoslavia recouped $3 million in foreign currency, given that sanctions were in place, and the country was on no-one's list of tourist destinations (being a war zone).

But Ron knew he could count on support in playing the Molosevic card (I prefer MudGuard's spelling). There are always plenty who will leap on this bandwagon as a Pavlovian reflex. Big Mick's view of Milosevic as a "vicious dictator" is typically uninformed, and not surprising since very little of Balkans history and politics is fairly explained in the US and UK media.

Contrary to Ron's assertion, Milosevic was NOT running Yugoslavia in 1992. And Mick may wish to note that Milosevic was elected president of Serbia in 1989 and again in 1992, and was elected president of Yugoslavia in or about 1996. Moreover he was a hugely popular president. His crime was that he was not Tito, and could not hold the federation together in the face of impossible odds.

Maybe Germany made the biggest mistake, eager to give early recognition to the seceded Croatia, and taking the EC with it. As part of the package, the EC felt obliged to invite Bosnia to seek recognition too, which certainly was a mistake, as that territory had no prospect of sustaining itself as an entity, as anyone could have predicted at the time (and as many did).

Franjo Tudjman, who was Croatia's autocratic ruler throughout the 1990s (albeit initially elected) enjoyed strong US support, and this remained undiminished when he revived the symbols and regalia of the Ustasha. It can hardly be wondered that the Serbs were terrified, and raced to take up arms.

The Ustasha were the fanatically catholic fascists installed by Hitler in 1941. Although little reported in the US and UK either then or subsequently, the declared policy of the Ustasha on coming to power (as enunciated for instance by the government minister Mile Budak) was to rid Croatia - and BiH - of all Serbs, Jews and Roma. By April 1945 many hundreds of thousands had been murdered, thousands had fled, and at least 250,000 had been forcibly converted from Eastern Orthodox christianity to catholicism (as the Ustashe's apostolic vicar, Archbishop Stepinac, proudly reported to the Vatican).

The Balkan genocide predated the holocaust proper and was carried out in a sadistic frenzy that horrified even German diplomats and military stationed in SE Europe. (Pope John Paul II beatified Stepinac in 1998, putting him within one step of sainthood. There is still at least one school named for Stepinac in the US.)

I don't doubt that Milosevic has blood on his hands, and would not be surprised if he were guilty of the charges now laid against him at the Hague. He was not, in my view, ever fit to be a leader, if only because of traumatising circumstances earlier in his own life. BOTH his parents committed suicide, which would dent anyone's self-esteem, and maybe this was why he fell into what turned out to be a destructively uxorious marriage. It is regrettable, to say the least, that there was the opportunity for his defects to be magnified on a national stage.

But it is plain rubbish to suggest Milosevic was a monster in 1992,or was widely perceived as such. Even when he did assume that reputation he remained equivocal in his relationship with Karadzic, who led the Bosnian Serbs. He several times distanced himself from that criminal regime, and sometimes intervening for the good - for instance in prevailing on Karadzic and Mladic to surrender the UN hostages.

Maybe it was sheer opportunism. Both Tudjman and Milosevic always harboured ambitions to carve up Bosnia between them. But it is not clear to me how, by the 1990s, the Serbs had become the the villains and Croats the good guys, when as recently as WW2 it was the Serbs who took up arms against the Nazis and the Croats who signed up with the Axis powers.

But on reflection, it IS clear: good old Uncle Sam. For weren't the Serbs Commies? And didn't that offend against the paranoia that drove US foreign policy? After all, the Croats, US and Vatican engaged in a charming conspiracy, in the closing stages and aftermath of WW2, to spirit war criminals out of Europe, down the so-called Vatican Ratline, and into South America, where their decent fascist principles were needed as a bulwark against the Reds getting control down there.

I didn't know much about Fischer except that, as with weelittledrummer, he was what got me seriously interested in chess, playing out games, etc. So I've found this thread interesting, Ron's posts included. Fischer obviously had even less of a hinterland than I'd realised. The living epitome of a flawed genius. But don't let Ron or anyone else pretend that turning down a $3 million purse for a CHESS match is an easy call even for anyone quite a lot more intelligent than Fischer seems to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:27 AM

While it certainly sounds like mental illness, I am doubting that anyone here is qualified to make that diagnosis, unless they happen to be a doctor and have met with Fischer. Unfortunately, I know people who have been complete asses for over 50 years too, but they aren't necessarily "ill".   However, I do agree that his pattern of behavior certainly points to a sickness. Let's hope there is a cure.

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: Bert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:09 AM

...how much we hold responsible people who are mentally ill.

Now don't you go bringing George W. into this.

Perhaps they need a secure ward for two in some institution. Put them both in it together.

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 04:37 AM

Most interesting thread.

I also read it from top to bottom and now feel very conflicted.

This is a very sick man, and I don't think anyone here would disagree with that.

He is/was also a brilliant chess player.

Most unfortunately, because of the latter, the former was brought into the spotlight due to our veneration of people with talent.

What this man did, whether lawful or not is a question that really needs to be tempered with how much we hold responsible people who are mentally ill.

Again, most unfortunately, this has always been muddled throughout history, through a misuse of talent, power, and politics.

Whether he will ever be "punished" for laws he broke or things he has said; in the end, it will not help him nor heal him.

It's incredibly sad.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 09:04 PM

hows this for solid logic?

a guy acts crazy for aproaching fifty years - he probably is crazy. Long time to keep up an act.

get a grip!

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: DougR
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 07:41 PM

I agree with Ron. The guy broke a law, he should be tried for it. Who knows what the verdict might be. Many of you write as though he has already been tried. Give him his day in court I say.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 03:31 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 11:21 AM

I have read this thing from top to bottom. I have read the posts of folks that I care about such as Art. The fact, IMO, is that Ron has the right of it. There are those in the discussion, due to their politics (which, btw, are my politics as well) seek to alibi this man's behaviour. They wash it off to mental illness, or whatever, with no cites to back it up, no facts to bolster their case. Ron, on the other hand, has come back time and again with solid logic. I don't like the Bushies anymore than most of you. In fact I have spent my adult life battling them and folks like them. But that has nothing to do with this case.

Thanks for straightening out my faulty memory, Ron, with regard to the political aspects of this. I see no reason for you to apologize, even if it was with tongue planted firmly in cheek. I believe you have advanced the only correct arguments on this thread.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 11:06 AM

Art, I really thank you for your sympathy.   It is a "tempest in a teapot" as you stated, but I guess it was one that also compelled you to add your 2 cents. It is a shame that whenever a discussion about a topic that doesn't interest someone comes up, people feel compelled to make comments on the posters. I'm sorry if the discussion points I have been making in this thread offended you. You have opened my eyes. Bobby Fischer is really small potatotes. We should forget about Milosovic, anti-semites, white supremicists, Nazi's, and all the rest. It is so 20th century! As the Beatles said "Obla di obla da".

I do appreciate YOUR note Clint. Yes, it is Milosovic that I despise. I also despise the venom that Fischer has spewed over the years. Honestly, I did not pay that much attention to the story when it first broke on Friday. A little chuckle perhaps, thinking "they finally got him". Then it was on to the other news of the day.   I felt compelled to post a few notes here after reading some of the comments that seemed to have forgotten the details of this story.   Milosovic's reign seems to be ignored. You are right, economic sanctions often hurt the poor, but I do prefer to see attempts made before we rush in to war.   

I do not have a hated for Fischer, mainly because I don't know if his problems represent actual racist and anti-semitic thought or if they are merely manifistations of mental illness. As Jenny pointed out, he needs to be the one to seek help. I hope he gets a day in court and can come to some sort of peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: Bert
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 10:35 AM

You beat me to it Sigurd.

The man did three million dollars worth of business in Yugoslavia. And you can bet that the Milosovic regime made a similar or greater sum from the deal.

The nature of the business is irrelevant. He was breaking the sanctions.

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: JennyO
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 03:06 AM

I wouldn't give that second site "Fischer Help" any credence at all. It is so obviously coming from an anti-semitic viewpoint, and the further down you go, the worse it gets. Ugh!

It does sound to me as if Fischer needs psychiatric help, but unfortunately, as with many others, he would have to seek it himself, and the very nature of his paranoia means that he would not see the need for it.

This can be a catch 22 situation for many relatives and friends of people who are clearly suffering from some mental illness, who are often their own worst enemy, and can cause chaos and heartache to those involved with them, but who are not at a stage where they can be scheduled. Been there, done that, got the t shirt.

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 01:43 AM

As chuck Berry said, "Too much monkey business for me to be involved in."

Ron, I feel sorry for you. And for Bobby too. (Tempests in a teapot.)

Back in the '60s, near Christmas, Bobby walked out of a game held in a hotel lobby where all the other players were loudly bragging about how good they were at the game of chess. He said he was sick of hearing chess nuts boasting in an open foyer.

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 01:25 AM

Ron

I think I owe you an apology.

I don't know you at all, and I thought you had an unreasonable hatred for a chess-player who has lost control of that part of the brain that keeps one from shitting his pants (as my old friend Torrey would say). Either that or a deep love for economic sanctions, which always seem (to me) to hurt the poor instead of the rich & powerful.

But then it came to me: it's Milosovic you hate, isn't it?

Sorry I took you wrong

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 07:39 PM

Just a warning - that last link - FISCHER HELP contains a lot of anti-semitic comments. That link also has a number of documents and supposedly a link to e-mail Fischer.   I have no idea how "real" it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 07:32 PM

... and just to show that I give "equal time", here is a page that apparently was put on the web by one of his supporters. Judge for yourself - Fischer help

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 07:26 PM

... and I wasn't trying to "up the ante". I was trying to focus on the issue at hand, which is the disregard for the sanctions.

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 07:24 PM

SRS, it is very easy fpr anyone to do a search and find numerous articles about Fischer. His exploits are legendary, but people seem to have a short attention span and forget.

Here is a good one, as published in the Atlantic - The Atlantic

There are many others, just do a search. Simple research.

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 04:51 PM

Is there a statute of limitations on violating UN sanction? Perhaps there should be if there is not. It's not like he kidnapped or killed anyone. Twelve years of selfimposed exile is probably enough punishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 03:20 PM

Sigurd,   The U.S. should now be banned (and is by some normal citizens of other countries)by other countries for its atrocities.

Leave Fischer alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 02:49 PM

ohhh..LH... what a wicked mind!   I like it! ....but for balance, they should add Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter!

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 02:21 PM

I now think that it would be even better if we could get both Bobby Fischer and Michael Jackson to get on the Howard Stern show...together.

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 02:15 PM

Ron, I think it's time for you to name a few of your sources. You keep upping the ante when someone comes along with a more moderate view and suggests clemency--so you'd better give us someplace to assess this data of yours. Don't just tell us about it, show us where you're getting your news about Fischer.

Thanks,

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: Bo Vandenberg
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 02:03 PM

Ron I agree completely.

A 3 million dollar purse chess match is not a game it is a cultural event. Yugoslavia was being shunned by the world for moral reasons. If Fisher wanted to play chess he was free to do so, simply not in the turney.

Spitting on the letter from the government is just destructive.

Claiming in Austrailia that 9/11 was a good idea and that the United States needs to be destroyed is negative.

Spinning anti-semetic crap about the US being controlled by a jewish conspiracy is misguided and negative.


I would think it prudent for any country so treated to reassert its authority over such a citizen. If Fisher has a legal arguement, has a new citizinship he wants protection under, or has mental excuses he should make them in a court of law. I'm not a chess player but, I don't think he will get a terrible shake from the US legal system. He probably has enough money\connections to get a better shake than most of us here, under similar circumstances.

He seems (to me) sad, paranoid, unbalanced and under the control of some very nasty and negative histrionics. Nothing in the news has said anything about him being more than detained.

Its simply not realistic to say 'he only played a game of chess'. Aside from helping to create the illusion that Yugoslavia was a forward cultural center, he took part in a Multi Million dollar spectacle -- definately a business venture. If thats just a game of chess I better start playing.

sigurd

I'm curious about his state of Mind. I hope he's heard and I hope he's shown to be negative, bigoted and destructive (if he is as has been reported). Then I hope he pays for his actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 12:32 PM

Ron:

Well, I fold, for sure. You've listed all kinds of information I never knew about him, and it's plain I don't know what the fuck I am talking about here, so consider my remarks abouthis effect on American repute withdrawn.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 12:23 PM

"He should be brought to justice."

And what IS justice? It's the opinion of some group of people, that's what it is. One man's justice is another man's oppression. I laugh when I hear that pretentious word "justice" used so glibly in the media in regards to condemning and judging people, because it is so often and so egregiously misused by people intent on satisfying their own emotional agendas...which are usually agendas of fear, hatred, and vengeance.

These are not exercises in justice we see happening, but exercises in the uses of power. Those with the power deliver the verdict. Those without it watch helplessly, whether or not "justice" is served or thwarted in the process.

Most people are simply incapable of grasping the true measure of justice, because they lack impartiality and they lack compassion. That is why the Bible (and many other sacred books) strongly advises people not to judge and condemn other people.

Laws are needed in order to introduce a reasonable measure of order into a society and protect basic rights. To say that those laws are serving justice, however, is to give them a far greater dignity and power than is really generally within their grasp. The legal system doesn't serve justice, it maintains a set of practical checks and balances on human behaviour (which is necessary). It frequently commits what I would term gross injustices in doing so. The whole modern prison system is a gross injustice perpetrated upon humanity, and serves basically to train and harden lifetime criminals.

I'm philosophizing here...not referring in any way to the specific matter of Bobby Fischer.

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 11:06 AM

ok, creative punishment-- lets put him in a locked ward with a computer that only plays chess at a beginners level.

other ideas?

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 09:26 AM

Clint, I thought I was clear about the fact that I DON'T think all laws should be followed to the letter. Of course there needs to be room for flexibility, and we have a write to protest the laws that we think unjust. I do believe that civil disobedience has a necessary place.

I do think that THIS law that he broke SHOULD be enforced.   The economic sanctions were created as an attempt to stop Milosovic and his brutal regime in Yugoslavia. I don't want to go so far as using the word treason, but what Fischer did was dead wrong. The fact that he was so blatant in his disregard, almost to the point of saying "catch me if you can", begs for the U.S. to enforce their threats.

Sure, you can compare this to Cuba and Israel. You can compare it to Iraq. When we ignore these sanctions, we negate the possiblity of them ever working.

Sure, he is just a "wee chess player". Milosovic has been dealt with and this "crime" is a distant past. Of course this is a litte transgression and it is perfectly alright to let bygones be bygones. Let's welcome Fischer back with open arms. I can see him doing the talk show circuit, bragging how he got away with this "crime". Then we also have a precedent for the next guy that wants to break a sanction. Let's ignore it and deal only with the one issue that seems to be on everyones mind. No other problems are worthy of attention at all, right?? Let's only focus on Iraq and Bush and everything else gets a pass.

Of course, based on the general reaction here on Mudcat (which shocks me), Fischer will get off with a slap on the wrist. All his "fans" will put him back on the pedestal, ignoring his many problems. We love celebrities, and one that is supposedly intelligent must be real attraction to many. I don't fall for it.   If he needs help, let him get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 04:40 AM

of course his ability as a chess player is why he's in trouble. Other than that, no one would give a tinkers turd what he did or believed.

I'm 55 now and since I was a twelve year old member of the school chess club here in England, I've been hearing stories of what a strange character this guy is or was.

someone like that can hardly be held responsible for his actions. You Americans (as a society) should have taken better care of him when he was a kid, and stopped him from getting so badly deranged. Instead he was a celebrity nutcase whilst still a child.

No wonder he has problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: GUEST,Dylan
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 03:45 AM

Well some wee guy from America played a game of chess for $3m and is going to jail in the US for breaching UN sanctions. The land of the free. I think not. If it had been played in Isreal, during sanctions, do you honestly think the US would have asked for his extradition? Me neither.

But to jail some wee guy for being paid to play a couple of games of chess in Yugoslavia, get a life.
Did this have a detremental effect on your life? or in reallity did anyone die because of it?
Probably not.
Who cares if he plays a game in Cuba? I mean how many US citizens go to cuba for a holiday each year contributing millions to the cuban economy and how much do US businessmen make from Cuba each year. Much more than they would ever pay someone for a game of chess.

If he is not what we would call of the normal IQ score whats his chances of going to the nut hoose under the present system that you have in the US

So in reality why are the US govt persuing some wee chess player?

Me thinks he has a massive oil reserve in his garden and Messers Bush and Rumsfeld want it.
Well there is no other reason for it is there.

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 02:57 AM

thanks SRS

I can't find any definite answers to the legal part, but what I've found is

1. Papaver somnium is the opium poppy.
2. You can legally own the seeds or the pods, but you can't legally grow the poppies.
3. Most poppies you see in gardens are opium poppies.
4. Even if you legally own some pods you can't legally make tea with them.
5. There's lots of places you can buy seeds and growing advice on the net.

I think Bierce spoke of "Father Antic, the Law," and a Dickens character said "The law is a ass."

there's probably material for a whole thread here.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 02:22 AM

hmmm...how did Ry Cooder got around sanctions to record the Buena Vista Social Club?

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 02:08 AM

Opium poppy and another opium poppy.

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 01:44 AM

Clint, you beat me to the ideal description of Fischer: idiot savant chess player. Ron, he might be an asshole, but be that as it may, that isn't why he's in trouble. And the things you've described aren't applicable to whatever court hearings he faces.

Considering all of the press lately regarding Charles Jenkins and his inability to visit Japan (extradition is a real possibility if this alleged U.S. deserter to North Korea sets foot in Japan) it is surprising that Fischer didn't figure it out. But as Clint says, in all other things but chess, he seems to be an idiot.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Extraditing Bobby Fischer
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 01:41 AM

I can see the current administration wanting to make an example of him. What would prevent him from playing in Cuba? Bobby was a great Chess player but he was never much of a man. Compared to Fisher, John MacEnroe seemed mature.