Origin: Red Is the Rose

Subject: Red Is The Rose
From:
Date: 24 Oct 98 - 12:51 AM

We perform the song "Red is the Rose." Would like to know any background info. Is it Irish or Scottish? Our version uses the tune "Loch Lomond."

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: Teru
Date: 24 Oct 98 - 04:28 AM

Of course, it's originally Scottish (Loch Lomond).Bobby O'Brien says something about that in the Discussion Forum April last year. Look up the thread "Lyrics? Westering home and a song in the air" in the Search Forum.

Regards

Teru

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: Jim Krause
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 05:53 PM

I sing this song whenever I'm requested. I perform quite a few concerts at museums and historic sites, so I try to stay within the confines of the site's era of interest. My question is: How old is "Red Is The Rose?" I'm beginning to wonder if it is Victorian or later. Thanks

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 06:03 PM

Lucy Simpson learned the song from the great Irish sean nos singer, Joe Heany, when he was living in New York. While it is sung to the air of "Loch Lomond," the source of the version that has made its way into the folk revival repertoire was as Irish as he could be. See the two versions in the DT.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: Jim Krause
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 06:18 PM

Sandy, I've heard of Joe Heaney from somewhere. He might have recorded some, maybe Fiona Ritchie played his recordings on Thistle & Shamrock. Anyway, I know the version to the air of Loch Lomond too. First heard it on a sound track to a video made by American Pioneer Video. Everyone in my neck of the woods learned it from that video, I think. I detected quite a few modern that is post 1820 folk songs and tunes on the video, so I began to wonder about the antuquity of "Red Is The Rose."

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 09:12 PM

Sorry, soddy, I can't help you with the date of the song's origin. But, hang in there. Surely one of our Irish scholars will come up with an answer soon. We'll just keep popping this thread back to the top until a Moulton or a Bruce O sees it and comes to our rescue.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 09:22 PM

Tommy Makem wrote it, I heard.That'd be back in the 50s or 60s. (But then again he might not have, I suppose. Anyway it came through him and the Clancys.)

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 10:15 PM

I believe Tommy M. did put a copyright on this but he didn't write it unless he very very old. This was the first song I ever heard Joe Heaney sing (had to learn it right then) sometime in the 70's I think at a festival in southeern Mass. He had mentioned he had got this from his grandfather when he was very young. Joe might've been some where in his 70's at the time. He also believed this to have orginated in Ireland. It's slightly different from the way Tommy does it, pretty much the same tune but done in Joe's Connamara sean nos style. I know there was an old thread on this somewhere. Barry

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: fulurum
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 11:42 PM

on his songbag album tommy says he learned the song from the singing of his mother, sarah makem.

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 12:02 AM

Yes, I remember hearing that Tommy told of learning the song from his mother. Of the two versions in the DT, I know one is from Joe Heaney, as sung by Lucy Simpson and Helen Schneyer. The other is from the Ossian publications, and the differing words may be more like those sung by Sarah Makem and taught to Tommy. I haven't heard Tommy do the song, so I can't say for sure. Lovely song, though, isn't it?

Sandy

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: fulurum
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 12:05 AM

yes it is.

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: GUEST,Seamus Kennedy
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 01:32 AM

I recorded Red Is The Rose a few years ago, and I'd heard that Tommy Makem had written it. So I called him to get the facts for attribution, royalties, etc., and he told me that he did not write it, but that he had learned it from his mother Sarah, who had been singing it for many, many years. He didn't know whether Red is the Rose or Loch Lomond came first. Tommy and Liam Clancy did a beautiful version of it. All the best.

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From:
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 03:02 PM

Could someone post the lyrics to this song, please. I think I have the version by Tommy Makem and Liam Clancey that I got off T&S but some of the words are difficult to understand. I'd appreciate if someone could post the lyrics. Thanks, Jim H.

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 03:32 PM

Go up to the DigiTrad box at the top of the page, type (in brackets) [Red is the Rose], click on "go" and look at the two texts that come up. One may be the text you're asking for.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: GUEST,Jim H.
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 04:12 PM

Thanks very much, Sandy. Found them. I appreciate your help.

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: GUEST,Helge in Norway
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 05:53 PM

I`ve been told the lyrics is written by Robert Burns, and he is Scottish ?

Helge [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 06:01 PM

Robert Burns was certainly a Scot, but I don't believe that he had anything to do with Red is the Rose.

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 08:28 PM

Doesn't sound like Burns to me, either, Dick. Besides, how could it have slipped past all those editors who produced so many "The Complete Poems of Robert Burns" volumes over the years? "My Love is Like a Red, Red, Rose" is a different song altogether, in case there is some confusion lurking here between the two.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 08:33 PM

Nor with Loch Lomond, attributed to "Lady Scott"

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: Barry T
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 09:40 PM

A midi with a version of the lyrics is over here.

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Feb 00 - 09:47 PM

Clicky for MY LOVE IS LIKE A RED, RED ROSE.

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: GUEST,soddy
Date: 18 Feb 00 - 01:24 PM

Yeah, I was positive that Red Is The Rose was not a Robert Burns compostiton. Most of his work is in dialect. RITR has in my experience always been sung in proper English. So far, my sense is that the song may not be any older than the 1850s, roughly. Am I reading between the lines correctly?

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 00 - 01:34 PM

It wasn't that Burns was writing in improper English.He was writing proper Scots. (As opposed to improper Scots, which is what Rab C Nesbit speaks - have the Americans been exposed to this yet? I think it might cause culture shock. With subtitles - which I always rely when I'm watching him, which I do at any available opportunity - even more severe culture shock.)

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: Jim Krause
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 12:59 PM

Semantics aside, the small point I implied is that Burns' Scots dialect is near impossible for this Yank to decipher. I'm still stumped about the approximate date of the song in question. Is it a pre-1820 piece, or later?

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 01:41 PM

soddy - Scots is a separate language, in some ways even further removed from "standard English" than American English is. They don't like having it called a dialect.

For foreign languages like this, if you can't find a native speaker you can always consult the appropriate dictionary. Hunt around on the web, and you'll find it all there somewhere.

I'd be surprised if Red is the Rose is all that old - but there aren't any internal clue. We need an expert to enlighten us.

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: Jim Krause
Date: 15 Mar 00 - 03:54 PM

McGrath My apologies if I gave insult by using the word dialect. Scots sounds a little like English the way Plaudtietsch sounds a little like German. But Plautdietsch is considered a German dialect. I Yankee-like thought Scots was related to English as Plautdietsch is related to German. Anyway back to RITR, I think I may end up dropping it from my active play list due to its uncertain age.

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: pastorpest
Date: 15 Mar 00 - 04:16 PM

On Tommy Makem's CD, Songbag, he lists Red Is the Rose as traditional and his note reads, "Learned from the singing of my late mother, Sarah Makem, this favourite is set to the same tune as the lovely Scottish song, Loch Lommand."

I hope there is a scholar out there who can tell us more about the origins of this great melody and two great lyrics.

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: irishajo
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 10:01 AM

Went looking for more info on this song, but apparently it's origins are in question.

Anyone have more info? Different verses?

Amy

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: Hrothgar
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 03:25 AM

I can well believe that the Irish stole the tune, and I can't see the words "Clear is the water that flows from the Boyne (or the Foyle, I've heard sometimes)" coming up in a Scots song.

Does this tilt the argument towards the Irish?

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 03:45 AM

Read through the above, although not entitled "Red is the Rose" by Robert Burns the lyrics used do come from a Burns poem. I am at work at the moment so cannot provide the reference.

Another one of Burns poems provides the bulk of the lyrics of "The Curragh of Kildare" I'll dig up the reference for that one and post back.

The above would date the lyrics at least to between 1774 and 1796.

As to the assumption that Burns only wrote in Doric Scots, please look a little closer at his songs and also his letters, particularly those to "Clarinda" they provide classic examples of english prose of that time. A lot of people tend to overlook the fact that for his time and circumstances Robert Burns was a very cultured and very well educated man.

Cheers

Bill.

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 07:41 AM

Don't think Burns wrote in "Doric Scots"! "The Doric" comes from the North-East of Scotland and is different again from Lowland Scots. Burns was from Ayrshire, diametrically on the other side of Scotland from where Burns originated.
I only looked up this thread to get the words of "Red is the Rose" and it seems still no final answer on the first origin of the song.

Subject: Lyr Add: RED IS THE ROSE
From: nutty
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 08:10 AM

This site has what I have always believed was the traditional version if 'Red is the Rose'. Not an Irish Connection in sight.

Red is the rose

There is also a MIDI

      Red is The Rose

Over the mountains and down in the glen,
To a little thatched cot in the valley;
Where the thrush and the linnet sing their ditty and their song,
And my love's leaning over the half-door.

Chorus:
Red is the rose that in yonder garden grows,
Fair is the lily of the valley;
Clear are the waters that flow in yonder stream,
But my love is fairer than any.

Down by the seashore on a cool summer's eve,
With the moon rising over the heather;
The moon it shown fair on her head of golden hair,
And she vowed she'd be my love forever.

It is not for the loss of my own sister Kate,
It is not for the loss of my mother;
It is all for the loss of my bonnie blue-eyed lass,
That I'm leaving my homeland forever.

Chorus:
Red is the rose that in yonder garden grows,
Fair is the lily of the valley;
Clear are the waters that flow in yonder stream,
But my love is fairer than any;
But my love is fairer than any.

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 06:12 PM

Jim, if you want to offend every Plattdeutsch-speaker in sight, go on calling it a dialect! As far as I am concerned, it is my second language. Before c. 1600, it was not only the spoken but the written language all over Northern Germany down to the Rhine. This changed only with the spread of Luther's bible translation, which was in Oberdeutsch. I remember a history professor in Hamburg who'd come from the south and admitted he needed help with reading late medieval documents from his new area because all of them were written in Plattdeutsch. (Sorry for thread creep!)

BTW, Plattdeutsch is more closely related to Scots than German is to English, and I keep finding words which are very similar in both languages, e.g. but and ben (buten un binnen).

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: sheila
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 08:36 PM

Susanne -
Does 'buten un binnen' have the same meaning as 'but and ben', or just a similar meaning?

sheila

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: GUEST,GEST
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 01:12 PM

Nutty wrote above, "This site has what I have always believed was the traditional version of 'Red is the Rose'. Not an Irish Connection in sight."

Newfoundland is populated by a vast number of Irish, whose ancestors immigrated to what was then a British colony rather than to America. The Irish connection is very strong in the folk music of Newfoundland and Atlantic Canada, and many's an Irish-Newfie lad who sang:

"It is all for the loss of my bonnie blue-eyed lass,
That I'm leaving my homeland forever." :-)

GEST Songs Of Newfoundland And Labrador

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: nutty
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 01:49 PM

Guest ....you have misunderstood me

I wa referring to the other version of the song "clear is the water that flows from the Boyne" when referring to the lack of Irishness in the song.

Remember ....a lot of Scots also emigrated.

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 04:03 PM

The mere fact that a song is found in tradition in Newfoundland is not in itself any indication of its previous source, and the major collections of Newfoundland folk song include material of Irish, Scottish and English origins; with some French, too, as is to be expected given that the place was settled from all those countries; besides plenty of "home grown" songs.

An early form of Loch Lomond appeared on broadsides around 1840 as Flora's Lament for her Charlie; examples can be seen at Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads:

Flora's lament for her Charlie [W. & T. Fordyce, Printers, 15, Grey St., Newcastle: Harding B 11(4363) Between 1832 and 1842]

and at Glasgow Broadside Ballads: the Murray Collection:

Flora's Lament For Her Charlie [Robt. M'Intosh, 96 King Street, Calton: Mu23-y3:013. No date.]

One verse is particularly worth quoting:

It's not for the hardships that I must endure,
Nor the leaving of Benlomond;
But it's for the leaving of my comrades all,
And the bonny lad that I love so dearly.

According to The Traditional Ballad Index, the song appeared in Vocal Melodies of Scotland in 1841, but no specifics are given. The earliest example I have seen with music is in Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs, vol. I, 1876 p.278, as The bonny, bonny Banks o' the Lomond. Two verses are given, rather different from the form they were later put into by Lady Scott (née Alicia Spottiswoode, 1810-1900). The song quickly became popular and acquired additional verses and a whole extravagant mythology as to its supposed meaning and age. Christie said that he had heard the song in his youth in Buchan, but had paid little attention to it. He considered the melody to be a relative of Kind Robin Lo's Me and The bonniest Lass in a' the Warld; certainly there are noticeable resemblances in the case of the former as it appeared in Johnson's Scots Musical Museum (vol. 5, 1796, no.478). There is also some resemblance to Miss Admiral Gordon's Strathspey, to which Burns set his I love my Jean in 1788.

Christie also published a set of Geordie (Child 209H) in volume 2 of his book, which begins

Will ye go to the Hielans, my bonny lad,
Will ye go to the Hielans, Geordie?
Though ye tak' the high road, and I tak the low,
I will be in the Hielans afore ye.

There doesn't seem so far to be any particular reason to date Loch Lomond earlier than the first few decades of the 19th century, though the tune is older. Red is the Rose, on the other hand, seems to have appeared "in public", so to speak, only in the second half of the 20th century, though anecdotal evidence would take it back as far as the early decades of the century in Ireland. How long has it been known in Newfoundland? None of the major folk song collectors who have worked there seem to have found it, and the Roud Folk Song Index currently lists no examples at all from anywhere.

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: GUEST, GEST
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 11:29 AM

Nutty wrote: "....you have misunderstood me

I was referring to the other version of the song "clear is the water that flows from the Boyne" when referring to the lack of Irishness in the song.

Remember ....a lot of Scots also emigrated."

Sorry, Nutty, but when you linked to my site and quoted the lyrics there, I took it to mean there was "not an Irish connection in sight" at GEST Songs Of Newfoundland And Labrador.

As Malcolm Douglas points out, Scottish, French, English, Irish and so many other nationalties make Newfoundland a truly rich source of many "borrowed" traditionals. :-)

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 06:58 PM

Thanks for all the historical stuff: this is what happens when you go into a thread that has lain dormant for over a year!

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: GUEST,Mr Happy
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 11:46 AM

me & the band do this version @displaysong.cfm?SongID=4913 similar to dt one.

I've always felt verses could be missing,as the story seems incomplete.

Anyone know?

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: paddymac
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 11:02 PM

I lay to claim to being a Burns student or scholar, but I seem to recall reading that much of his "original" stuff was already well established in the folk vernacular before he ever put pen to paper. Not exactly on unheard of phenomenon. Whether its really his or not is a question better left to the academics. Suffice to say there is a load of brilliant stuff under his name.

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 11:19 PM

True; but he certainly wasn't involved with Loch Lomond or with Red is the Rose, which appears (until we get information to the contrary) to be a rather more recent thing using that tune and some elements from older songs.

Is there any concrete evidence that Red is the Rose even existed before the 20th century? Neither Tommy Makem nor Joe Heaney have proved to be impeccable sources of information, but even they don't directly suggest that it's much older than that.

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 09:15 PM

The Burns poem I think you refer to, Teribus, is "The Winter it is Past". Not much explained there, though, it appears as text in both the Irish and the Scots. The only Burns work I can recall which mentions a Red Rose is "My Luv is Like A Red Red Rose".

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: GUEST,Mr Happy
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 03:06 PM

Does anyone know if the tune/air used for Lomond & Rose is older than either, & if so where did it originate?

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 06:00 AM

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 06:16 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bonnie_Banks_O%27_Loch_Lomond

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:37 AM

Who wrote that crap in Wikipedia?

The tune had been well known in Scotland since the middle of the 18th century as "Kind Robin Lo'es Me".

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:32 PM

Jack Campin,

Thanks, I thought that iffy meself.

It's the tune origin I'm researching.

Any idea where its from, author?

Subject: RE: Red Is The Rose
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:58 PM

I `ad that Wikipedia in my cab the other day.
`e said, " Take me to the British Library please."
I said, "What, you gonna read up about something?"
`e said, "Yeah, I doing some research on folk music tunes. There`s some discussion on that Mudcat about a number called Red is the Rose."
I said, "What do you put down if you find `alf a dozen conflicting ideas?"
`e said, "The one that`s easiset to spell!!"

Whaddam I like??

Subject: RE: Origin: Red Is the Rose
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 07:26 AM

I'm reckoned to be something of an authority on Irish ballads and I perform this song. You might be confusing 'My Love Is Like a red red rose' by Burns, but he had nothing to do with this song. The general debate is which is older Red Is The Rose or Loch Lomond, because one clearly borrowed the other's tune. I've never found the answer, but I have been told by some very old Irish singers, that Red Is The Rose is the original. Both are lovely songs but I prefer the Irish version. And No Tommy Makem did not write it, but very much helped to revive it along with many other Irish ballads he and The Clancys rescued. You can find words and chords to a huge number of irish songs on the Martin Dardis site unitedireland.tripod.com or might be .ie

Desi C

Subject: RE: Origin: Red Is the Rose
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 08:41 AM

Desi, PLEASE read what we've already said on a topic before posting.

Subject: RE: Origin: Red Is the Rose
From: Gutcher
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 09:15 AM

To muddy the waters a little further, we in Scotland have another
   song with the same title.
   Red is pronounced too rhyme with deed.
   The words & tune are completly different from the song under
   discussion in this forum.
   I would have to sing it to you as I cannot write music.
   Joe.
   P.S. Only ever heard it sung by Mother.

Subject: RE: Origin: Red Is the Rose
From: GUEST,whoever
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 03:14 AM

everything - just about everything MF thing originated in Ireland - no doubt about it

Subject: RE: Origin: Red Is the Rose
From: GUEST,Annie Jo
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 11:50 AM

By the way Nutty, the Boyne is a river in Ireland, hence the waters that flow from it.