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BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard

CarolC 12 Aug 04 - 05:17 PM
Rabbi-Sol 12 Aug 04 - 05:02 PM
Jack the Sailor 12 Aug 04 - 03:44 PM
Rabbi-Sol 12 Aug 04 - 12:15 AM
CarolC 11 Aug 04 - 11:52 PM
Jack the Sailor 11 Aug 04 - 11:51 PM
GUEST,Maotz 11 Aug 04 - 11:41 PM
Amergin 11 Aug 04 - 11:38 PM
Rabbi-Sol 11 Aug 04 - 11:27 PM
pdq 11 Aug 04 - 10:29 PM
Jack the Sailor 11 Aug 04 - 06:09 PM
Rabbi-Sol 11 Aug 04 - 04:46 PM
Once Famous 11 Aug 04 - 04:09 PM
Wolfgang 11 Aug 04 - 03:25 PM
CarolC 11 Aug 04 - 01:02 PM
Wolfgang 11 Aug 04 - 12:57 PM
CarolC 11 Aug 04 - 10:40 AM
GUEST 11 Aug 04 - 09:55 AM
The Fooles Troupe 11 Aug 04 - 08:03 AM
Metchosin 11 Aug 04 - 02:28 AM
beardedbruce 10 Aug 04 - 04:48 PM
CarolC 10 Aug 04 - 04:48 PM
CarolC 10 Aug 04 - 04:47 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 10 Aug 04 - 04:43 PM
CarolC 10 Aug 04 - 04:39 PM
GUEST,Maotzz 10 Aug 04 - 04:34 PM
Rabbi-Sol 27 Jul 04 - 01:05 PM
GUEST 27 Jul 04 - 10:31 AM
Greg F. 27 Jul 04 - 09:02 AM
The Fooles Troupe 27 Jul 04 - 05:38 AM
Metchosin 26 Jul 04 - 11:05 PM
Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive) 26 Jul 04 - 11:02 PM
The Fooles Troupe 26 Jul 04 - 10:41 PM
Greg F. 26 Jul 04 - 10:24 PM
Rabbi-Sol 26 Jul 04 - 09:04 PM
Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive) 26 Jul 04 - 08:01 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 26 Jul 04 - 06:56 PM
The Fooles Troupe 26 Jul 04 - 06:44 PM
CarolC 26 Jul 04 - 06:44 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 26 Jul 04 - 06:34 PM
Rabbi-Sol 26 Jul 04 - 06:26 PM
Rabbi-Sol 26 Jul 04 - 06:07 PM
Jack the Sailor 26 Jul 04 - 06:05 PM
Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive) 26 Jul 04 - 05:59 PM
Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive) 26 Jul 04 - 05:55 PM
Jack the Sailor 26 Jul 04 - 05:47 PM
Rabbi-Sol 26 Jul 04 - 05:47 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 26 Jul 04 - 05:45 PM
Jack the Sailor 26 Jul 04 - 05:38 PM
Rabbi-Sol 26 Jul 04 - 05:32 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 05:17 PM

I definitely agree with your 12 Aug 04 - 05:02 PM post, Rabbi Sol. 100 percent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 05:02 PM

I am against all foreign as well as domestic special interest groups using monetary incentives to influence our elected representatives, who are supposed to be working for us, the people who elected them. Take for example the pharmacutical giants. They are exerting extreme pressure on Bush and other government officials to ban the importation of prescription medicines from Canada. As a senior citizen, I have to take many expensive meds and if I did not have a Canadian source for them I could not afford them. But firms such as Pfizer are lobbying strongly to stop these imports, irrespective of the will of the majority. As I said before it's all about money, and it stinks. SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 03:44 PM

My point is that it is dispicable for both to be working with foreign governments against the interests of US citizens. By your logic it is OK for wealthly Arabs to do it because wealthy Jews do it. You should be speaking against both.


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:15 AM

Jack: Unfortunately, politics in the USA is all about money. I agree with you. It should not be that way. It is the lobbyists that are influencing policy, not you or I. When was the last time a POOR man was elected President of the United States ? Not since old Abe Lincoln came out of the wilderness. My point being, if the Arabs do it, we Jews have to do it as well. Money talks and the brown stuff walks. Until we can rectify this injustice, we are all forced to play the game. SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 11:52 PM

No, Guest,Maotz. It was not I who brought poor Mr. Murphy into this discussion on this thread. I was merely quoting someone else. Verbatim, in fact. I copied and pasted directly from the other person's post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 11:51 PM

Rabbi-Sol

I'm with you about this particular article. It's kinda nutty. But this thing that you said tickled me.

The Arabs with all their oil money and clout have been influencing American foreign policy for years. That is O.K.

I don't think it is OK. I don't thing either is OK. Have you seen Farenheit 9/11? Michael Moore, at least, doesn't think that Arab influence is OK. I'm tired of rich folks of all kinds buying governments and influence.

By the way, you and a few others here throw around that term "anti-semitism" quite a bit. Its starting to become old and sound rather shrill. Is it possible to oppose or be concerned about anything Israel or "rich Jews" do and not be labeled an anti-semite? Can't a person just be "anti-traitor" or just be against having a bunch of rich people who happen to be Jews try to involve us in Israel's problems?

I'm not Martin Gibson. I don't have to hate you to disagree with you. In fact I like you even though we disagree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: GUEST,Maotz
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 11:41 PM

oky dokey I see that I managed to veer everyone off topic, was not my intention. I actually thought it was an example that would make varying view points clear to everyone, guess not.
I'm sorry, Carol that you took my post personally, Yes, I borrowed the name "Murphy" from you, didn't realize that entailed "baiting". Didn't realize you'd be so sensitive about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Amergin
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 11:38 PM

A hanging is a good thing for spies...


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 11:27 PM

It is no secret that some of the richest Jews here in the USA and Canada have gotten together to help Israel. The Arabs with all their oil money and clout have been influencing American foreign policy for years. That is O.K. But when rich Jews get together to do the same thing, it is somehow looked upon with suspicion. Espionage ? Come on now. Give us a break. This garbage is reminiscent of classical anti-semitism (Blood Libels, Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion, Etc.). Just because something appears in print does not mean that people have to show their ingorance by believing it. SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: pdq
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 10:29 PM

...this will ruffle some feathers...



This article appears in the Aug. 31, 2001 issue of Executive Intelligence Review.

Israeli Spies: 'Mega Was Not
An Agent; Mega Was the Boss'
by Jeffrey Steinberg

For a brief period of time in early 1997, the Central Intelligence Agency, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and the National Security Agency engaged in a frantic mole hunt for an Israeli spy, believed to be operating inside the highest levels of the Clinton Administration national security establishment. By the time the mole hunt was made public--in a May 7, 1997 Washington Post leak--the hunt had been abruptly ended, and for all intents and purposes, the story disappeared from the news within a matter of days.

According to the Post account, in January 1997, the National Security Agency (NSA) had intercepted a phone conversation between an Israeli official at the embassy in Washington, and Danny Yatom, the head of the Mossad, Israel's foreign intelligence service. The official sought permission from the spy boss to "go to Mega" in order to obtain a copy of a confidential letter that had been sent by then-U.S. Secretary of State Warren Christopher to Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat, concerning U.S. assurances about a recently negotiated agreement for an Israeli military withdrawal from the Hebron area in the West Bank. Yatom, according to the NSA intercept, rejected the request, admonishing his agent, "This is not something we use Mega for."

The idea that the Israeli government was running another spy operation inside the U.S. national security establishment created a tremendous stir. The Washington Post, in its May 7, 1997 leak, had reported, "One official with knowledge of the FBI investigation into the identity of Mega cautioned that much remained unknown. But the official said that if it turned out that a senior U.S. official was passing sensitive information to Israeli authorities, it could prove more serious than the espionage case involving Jonathan Jay Pollard, a former Navy analyst who was convicted in 1986 of selling U.S. military intelligence documents to Israel."

To this day, the Pollard affair is a hot-button issue inside the U.S. intelligence community. At the time of Pollard's arrest in November 1985, it was known that the Navy analyst had been "tasked" to obtain specific U.S. military intelligence secrets, by someone much higher up in the U.S. intelligence community. To this day, the hunt for "Mr. X," Pollard's inside controller, continues. In 1986, EIR had revealed the existence of not merely a "Mr. X," but an "X Committee," made up of nearly a dozen top-level Pentagon and National Security Council officials, all suspected of having been part of the Pollard spy network.

Given the seriousness of the Mega security breach, the abrupt shutdown of the mole hunt naturally prompted some wild speculation about the circumstances under which the search for Mega was abandoned. In March 1999, British author Gordon Thomas released a book, Gideon's Spies, which alleged that Israel had blackmailed the Clinton Administration, with the threat to release tapped telephone conversations between the President and Monica Lewinsky, to force Washington to abandon the Mega hunt. Indeed, in her testimony before independent counsel Kenneth Starr, Lewinsky had reported that the President had warned her, on March 29, 1997, at the height of the Mega hunt, that he suspected the White House telephones were being tapped by agents of an unnamed foreign country.

Years later, it was revealed that the White House communications system had been overhauled and modernized during the early Clinton era, and one of the main outside contractors involved in the project was an Israeli firm, Amdocs. According to a May 2000 story in Insight magazine, Amdocs employees would have had nearly unfettered access to White House telephone lines and other super-sensitive communications equipment. However, the nature of the request from the Mossad man in Washington to Yatom—to obtain a confidential State Department document—rules out the possibility that Mega was an electronic eavesdropping source.

Mega-Suspects

Even though the Mega hunt was formally called off, still in some U.S. intelligence quarters, the effort to unearth the suspected Israeli spy cell apparently continued. In September 2000, a CIA team of counterintelligence specialists arrived in Israel, after U.S. Ambassador Martin Indyk had his security clearances temporarily lifted. Ostensibly, Indyk had breached security guidelines by bringing classified U.S. government documents to his residence in Tel Aviv. But it later was revealed that the CIA probe was triggered by an August 2000 unauthorized meeting between Indyk and the former head of the Mossad, Ephraim Halevy, which the ambassador had never reported back to Washington.

If there were anyone in the Clinton Administration's political hierarchy who was a prime candidate to be the Israeli spy Mega, it was Indyk. A British-born Australian citizen, Indyk had been Australia's top Mideast security official in the late 1970s, as deputy director of current Mideast intelligence at the Australian Office of National Assessments, the equivalent of the U.S. National Security Council. But, Indyk abruptly quit the post after just ten months, prompting speculation that he had come under suspicion of spying for Israel (he had lived in Israel while completing his dissertation on "The Power of the Weak: The Ability of Israel and Egypt to Resist the Policies of their Super-Power Patrons"). According to British journalist Kevin Dowling, Indyk next surfaced in Israel, as a "media consultant" to Israel's Likud Prime Ministers, Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir.

In 1982, Indyk came to America, ostensibly on a six-month sabbatical from his duties with the Office of the Israeli Prime Minister. Based out of Cornell University, Indyk formed a research department for the America-Israeli Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), the "official" Israeli lobby in the United States. Within a year, AIPAC had ponied up $100,000 to Indyk to hive off the research unit as the Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP). Pro-Israel luminaries in Washington, including former Vice President Walter Mondale, former Secretaries of State George Shultz and Alexander Haig, and former United Nations Ambassador Jeane Kirkpatrick, were among the initiating members of WINEP's advisory board, according to Dowling's Sept. 27, 2000 account of the Indyk counterintelligence probe.

Indyk's "six-month sabbatical" never ended, but it was not until 1987 that the Australian got his first green card, permitting him to work in the United States. Indyk was made a U.S. citizen on Jan. 12, 1993—just eight days before he was appointed to the incoming Clinton Administration's National Security Council (NSC) staff as Senior Director for Near East and South Asian Affairs. Indyk had already been an informal Mideast policy adviser to President George H.W. Bush, at the initiative of Dennis Ross, Bush's Assistant Secretary of State, previously a deputy to Indyk at WINEP. At the time of the Mega hunt, Indyk had Ross' old job as Assistant Secretary of State for the Near East.

Another prime suspect in the Mega mole hunt was Leon Fuerth, Vice President Albert Gore's national security adviser, and another well-known pro-Likud fanatic. The Washington Post, in a 1998 profile of Fuerth, reported that he was suspected by U.S. intelligence officials of passing sensitive U.S. policy information to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu (Likud), a passionate, personal enemy of President Clinton, who was suspected of activating the Mega spy operation.

Also on the Mega list of suspects inside the Clinton national security apparatus was Richard Clarke, the National Security Council "counterterrorism czar," who was fired from the State Department and brought onto the Bush Administration NSC in 1992, after he was accused by the State Department's Inspector General of concealing illegal Israeli arms sales to China.

The Purloined Letter Principle

While all of the above-mentioned Bush- and Clinton-era national security operatives may have been, indeed, secretly, or not-so-secretly passing critical American policy papers and classified documents to the Likud faction in Israel; and, while then-Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu and his Mossad mandarins may have been attempting to blackmail the President, there is a much simpler answer to the Mega puzzle: Mega was not a deep mole inside the White House. Mega was a far more visible, far more powerful entity, known among its several dozen members as "the Mega Group."

The existence of the Mega Group came to light, almost exactly a year after the Washington Post revealed that the mole hunt was under way. Yet, the story of the Mega Group, which appeared in the Wall Street Journal on May 4, 1998, made no mention of espionage, and did not mention the Mossad, the CIA, or Monica Lewinsky, even in passing. Despite that, the Mega Group precisely fits the story of the illusive mole hunt, in a manner that has profound policy implications to this day, as President George W. Bush struggles to avoid an outbreak of war in the Middle East, which would have devastating consequences for the entire planet.

Under the innocent headline, "Titans of Industry Join Forces To Work for Jewish Philanthropy," Wall Street Journal staff reporter Lisa Miller reported on an April 1998 gathering of some 20 Jewish billionaires, at the Manhattan apartment of hedge-fund manager Michael Steinhardt. That gathering involved some of the most powerful names in the Jewish lobby in America, starting with Edgar Bronfman, the chairman of the World Jewish Congress. Others included: Charles Bronfman, Edgar's brother and a top executive of the family's flagship Seagrams Corp.; Leslie Wexler of Limited, Inc.; Charles Schusterman, chairman of Samson Investment Co. of Tulsa, Oklahoma; Harvey "Bud" Meyerhoff, a fabulously wealthy and powerful Baltimore real estate magnate; Laurence Tisch, chairman of Loews Corp.; Max Fisher, the Detroit oil magnate and Republican Party powerhouse; bagel magnate Max Lender; and Leonard Abramson, the founder of U.S. Healthcare.

According to the Journal account, the Mega Group was founded in 1991 by Wexler and Charles Bronfman, to add greater clout to the Israeli lobby, by establishing an informal, but all-powerful policymaking group, able to deploy billions of dollars in "charitable" funds for the maximum effect on U.S. policy toward Israel, the Mideast, and other issues of paramount importance to the Jewish megabillionaires. The Mega Group convenes twice a year, for two-day sessions, where, behind closed doors, the members make life-and-death decisions, affecting U.S. policy. Membership is by invitation only; the meetings are secret (the Wall Street Journal story was the only coverage to ever appear in the U.S. media about the existence of the Mega Group, before the publication of this EIR account); and the members each kick in $30,000 in annual dues, to cover "operating expenses" for the twice-yearly sessions.

Charles Bronfman reflected the Mega Group's propensity for secrecy, when he told the Journal's Lisa Miller, "From the beginning we didn't want to be seen as a threat to anybody. And that still pertains. We don't want to be seen as the Sanhedrin," a reference to the highest court of the ancient Jews. "We don't want to be looked at crooked." Charles' far more sinister and slick brother, Edgar, tried to dismiss the activities of the Mega Group, telling Miller, "We want to make it cool to be Jewish."

Not So Cool

But then, a March 13, 2001 dispatch by the Jewish Telegraph Agency revealed that the Mega Group is more than a loose bunch of Jewish billionaires out to do good. The JTA reported that newly installed Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was about to launch a two-pronged propaganda offensive inside the United States, aimed at winning American support for his plans to overturn the Mideast peace process. First, the JTA revealed, the Sharon government announced that it was hiring two U.S. public relations firms—Rubenstein Associates and Morris, Carrick and Guma—to peddle the Israeli government "spin" inside the U.S. media and in policymaking circles in New York and Washington.

The JTA wire continued, "More controversially, a handful of Jewish mega-donors has created a think-tank they hope will generate long-term strategies for presenting Israel in a favorable light."

The new think-tank, Emet (the Hebrew word for "truth"), JTA reported, is the collective brain-child of Leonard Abramson, Edgar Bronfman, and Michael Steinhardt—three of the leading Mega Group members (JTA made no mention of Mega). The Mega Group is expected to kick in $7 million to launch the new organization, with the Israeli Foreign Ministry also pledged to pony up $1 million in startup cash. But, lest there be any confusion about who's in charge at Emet, JTA revealed that "the group consulted with [Malcolm] Hoelein, [Abe] Foxman and other Jewish activists—and only then notified Israel's Foreign Ministry, Foxman said." Hoelein, the executive vice president of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, is a fanatical backer of the Sharon war-drive, a view he shared with the just-retired president of the group, Ronald Lauder, a big Sharon financial backer who met with Sharon in September 2000—just before the latter staged his provocation at the Islamic holy sites on the Temple Mount/al-Haram al-Sharif in Jerusalem, triggering the ongoing violence.

The Emet project has been criticized inside Israel, by Foreign Ministry officials and peace activists alike. As JTA reported, "Some Foreign Ministry officials grumbled that American Jews were poaching on their turf. Not surprisingly, they would prefer that any extra money be funneled to the ministry's efforts.... Israel's left appeared concerned that hawkish American Jews will use Emet to push a hard-line approach to the peace process." Steinhardt, Bronfman, and Abramson refused to talk about the project. But the enthusiastic endorsement for Emet from Morton Klein, president of the hawkish Zionist Organization of America, is strong confirmation that the outfit will peddle Sharon's war line. As EIR reported recently, Klein led a delegation of right-wing Zionists and evangelical Christians in a White House meeting, where they threatened a Presidential representative with a cutoff of support, if Bush attempted to interfere in Sharon's war schemes (see Anton Chaitkin, "Temple Mount Fanatics Seek To Blackmail Bush," EIR Aug. 24, 2001).

The Power of Money

The Mega Group story came full circle on May 5, 2001, with the publication of a story in an obscure Israeli online publication, Media Monitors Network, by writer Israel Shamir. Shamir noted, with no lack of irony, the meeting of the Mega Group, which had taken place the previous day at the Manhattan mansion of Edgar Bronfman.

Shamir first described a meeting he had recently had with a Vermont-based psychoanalyst, the nephew of Israel's first Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion. The nephew prided himself on the fact that his closest friends were Palestinians, and that he rejected the idea of a Jewish "tribal" identity, preferring to view all human beings as brethren.

Shamir observed, "That is the last thing the bosses want. I would not be amazed if they discussed it yesterday, when they met in the Edgar Bronfman mansion in Manhattan. The head of the World Jewish Congress hosted a meeting of the 50 richest and most powerful Jews of the U.S. and Canada. There was no press coverage, no limelight, just a few lines in the newspapers.... They agreed to launch a PR program under the Orwellian codename of 'Truth' with the purpose of influencing American public opinion regarding Israeli policies."

Shamir continued, "The megabucks call themselves 'Mega group.' This name appeared in the media a couple of years ago, as a name for the secret Israeli mole in the upper reaches of the U.S. establishment. It came up in an overheard phone conversation, later denied by the Israeli embassy in Washington, D.C. The newshounds and spook watchers got it wrong. 'Mega' was not an agent, Mega was the boss."

With some bitterness, Shamir wrote, "Megabucks influence us, even more than they influence the U.S. Our politicians are as weak and corrupt as America's and they are easier to swing. Even relative small-timers can cause eruption and bloodshed, like the California bingo-parlor owner [Irving] Moskowitz, who pushed our ex-prime minister Netanyahu to open the tunnel under the Haram al Sharif.... The Megabucks can buy Israel with their spare change. If they wish, we would have peace in Palestine today. But they are not interested in Israel per se.... Megabucks care for themselves, and they need Israel in order to keep the American Jews together, supporting them. That is why they do not mind bloodshed in Palestine, and even a bloody regional war does not scare them."

Shamir concluded: "In my opinion, Megabucks, rather than forces of Caballa, move the events in the Middle East. It is not magic, just money—but a lot of money. They do not rule America or Israel, but they exercise a lot of influence. Fifty multibillionaires united in one framework present a very real force in the world."

Of course, Shamir does not have the picture precisely right. The Bronfman-centered Mega Group is but one component of an insane and desperate element within the transatlantic financial establishment that is now pressing for a "Clash of Civilizations," as a means of responding to the collapse of their global financial empire, and the threat of a new set of Eurasia-centered cooperative arrangements among nations supplanting their power. But, as far as the Mega puzzle is concerned, Shamir has solved the mystery.

No wonder Mossad boss Yatom scolded his Washington-based underling with the warning, "This is not something we use Mega for."


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:09 PM

Jack wants him to rot in jail no matter what, because the country he spied for was Israel.

Rabbi-Sol that is a lie and I find it offensive. It is you who are are saying that he is in jail because he spied for Israel. Reread your first post and try to tell me otherwise.

What I want is for anyone who spies for any country to rot in jail and for anyone who spies for a so called ally to be held to a higher standard.

Rabbi-Sol If his name was Murphy instead of Pollard, and he offered information to Canada, I would expect the Canadian govenernment to imediately turn him in to the US authorities. I would want to see him proscecuted to the full exent of the law. Prosecuted because he is a traitor to his own country and traitors cannot be trusted. If it came down to trusting a responsible governments official over that of an admitted traitor. That is one of the few cases where I would be more inclined to trust the government official. Who is to say a traitor would not offer the same information to a third country?

It is apparant that many of you are speaking out on behalf of this man because he spied for Israel, some more of you are just baiting Carol and me. If Pollard had spied for any other country this thread would have died off long ago.

Do you think what I have said in this thread makes me an anti-semite Rabbi-Sol? Would you like for us to go through this thread looking at what you and I have both said and analyze which statements smack of bigotry and which do not? I understand your passion to defend your people, including Pollard. My point of view is that we should punish all spies, including Pollard. The two points of view put us at odds, but it doesn't make either of us a bigot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:46 PM

CarolC has already agreed in a previous post on this very same thread, that since the ACLU has taken up Pollard's cause, his harsh life sentence sould be given a second look by a Federal judge. That is all that anyone is asking. This is one point where Jack & Carol do not agree. Jack wants him to rot in jail no matter what, because the country he spied for was Israel. SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:09 PM

Cool thread.   A lot of people find Jack CunnilingusHam just as anti-semetic and anti-Israel as I do. They should let this nut be a citizen?


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 03:25 PM

DECISION-MAKING MODELS COMPARED

In the neoclassical paradigm, choices are intended as results of a computational process which maximizes the expected utility of outcomes that are weighted by their probabilities. As well known, 15"If a totally new image is to come into being, however, there must be sensitivity to internal messages, the image itself must be sensitive to change , must be unstable, and it must include a value image which places high value on trials, experiments, and the trying of new things" (Boulding 1956, p.94).
this approach involves an axiomatic concept of rationality, according to which rationality is a behavioural rule and consists of selecting that strategy which best solves the maximization problem. Mathematical foundations of this theory, that we define as "traditional"16, were provided by von Neumann and Morgestern (1944), Debreu (1959), Arrow (1963). With the label "non traditional" we rather identify those branches of decision theory that have been developed as an alternative to the neoclassical one, both starting from experimental research programs and in relation to Herbert Simon's work and legacy. The neoclassical approach to choice processes has been challenged on empirical grounds since the axioms of expected utility theory were found to be systematically violated in Allais's (1953) and Ellsberg's experiments. The major contribution to this field of investigation came from Kahneman and Tversky's work on heuristics (1973, 1974) which led to Prospect Theory (1979). A starting point of this model is the detection of systematic departures from instrumental rationality in experimental situations, while the inclusion of perception among the basic ingredients of choice and the consequent relevance of frame in orienting the decision maker's behaviour are of great theoretical importance.
(copied from somewhere in the web)

They hate him for when they hear his name they know that now the discussion starts to be mathematical. Most of them hate that.

Ellsberg is famous in the decision theory literature and one finding even bears his name, something most scientists never accomplish.

Yes that's the very same Ellsberg who later became famous outside of his field of research. Sometimes I ask a very good student whether (s)he has ever heard the name Ellsberg outside of their required reading in decision theory. I still wait for the first positive response. They are just too young I guess.

Wolfgang (I said it was off topic)


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 01:02 PM

Why do they hate him, Wolfgang?


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 12:57 PM

(off topic:) My poor students hate Ellsberg nearly as much as they hate Allais.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 10:40 AM

No, CarolC. North Korea wouldn't do that because Canada has a treaty with the US that says if anyone did that, the US would blow them away.

Well then why would the US be concerned about North Korea posing a threat to the US? Our ability to blow them away ought to be just as effective as a deterrent to the North Koreans attacking us as it would be for them attacking Canada.

The fact is that North Korea has no reason to want to attack Canada.

As far as the perception of Pollard as a hero is concerned, the issue is how this perception effects the intelligence agencies in the US, not how this perception effects people like me. The fact is that as long as the perception of Pollard as a hero figure causes the intelligence agencies to see Pollard as a threat to security, this perception will harm Pollard's case for getting released. This is a reality over which I have no control.

Here's a hypothetical that I can get behind:

Daniel Ellsberg is a hero to me. If he had been made to serve a lengthy sentence in prison and I was trying to promote him to the public as a hero, and if there were people who were working behind the scenes to get him released and they said that people like me who were trying to promote him to the public as a hero were hurting their efforts and making Ellsberg's life more difficult, I would just shut up about it and let them do their work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 09:55 AM

Saddam Hussein`s friend Oliver North along with his terrorist friends used forged Irish passports.


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 08:03 AM

They're using New Zealand passports now. The NZ Govt has a couple of agents that they caught, on trial right now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Metchosin
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 02:28 AM

Speaking of Canada, I do wish that MOSSAD would quit forging and using their fake Canadian passports to do their stuff. It makes their legitimate use for real Canadian citizens damned dangerous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 04:48 PM

No, CarolC. North Korea wouldn't do that because Canada has a treaty with the US that says if anyone did that, the US would blow them away.

Let's be honest here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 04:48 PM

...anyway, the GUEST is just CarolC baiting, and I don't really feel like playing that game right now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 04:47 PM

Not at all, Bill H. If the GUEST can some up with an example that might possibly make some sense, I'll answer it in kind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 04:43 PM

Another missed point, Carol C---or at best turned to serve your purpose.

Bill H


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 04:39 PM

That one just won't fly. North Korea wouldn't do that because Canada is a nice country that knows how to mind its own business and let other countries alone to live thier lives in peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: GUEST,Maotzz
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 04:34 PM

Okay, Imagine, if you would, dire circumstances, having just come from driving through Canada, I know this is a difficult scenario to imagine, but walk with me here for a bit, to illustrate a point.

North Korea has missles pointed to Canada. USA intelligence has information about these missles. Mr. Murphy, (a name stolen from prior posts by CarolC) has duel citizenship with USA and Canada. He has come across this information. The missles are poised, and Mr. Murphy knows that time is of the essence, (he also knows about beaurocracy of the US government).

So, rather than see one of his beloved countries destroyed, he siphons information to the affected country, to alert them allowing action to be taken.

Now, seriously, wouldn't he be considered a hero by Canadians? Even if caught and imprisoned in USA?

Just a thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 01:05 PM

Also, if memory serves me correctly, Pollard's guilty plea was supposed to provide leniency for his then wife Anne. Instead, they threw the book at her also. I believe that she served 7 years of a 15 year sentence and was let out early because she was in poor health & suffered from ulcerative colitis. Jonathan gave Anne a Get (Jewish Divorce), when it became apparent that he would have to spend the rest of his life in prison. This way she would be free to marry someone else and raise a family. Pollards present wife, Esther,is a woman who became interested in his plight and married him while he was in prison. Rabbi Avi Weiss of Riverdale, Bronx, NY, a well known Jewish activist performed the ceremony in prison. Of course, the marriage has yet to be consummated and may never be as long as Pollard remains incarcerated. I have brought up this point just to present the human side of the issue. SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 10:31 AM

actually greg f. zilch was quite nice about and assumed you probably didn't recognize your bigotry forwhat it was.

he didn't conform your point. he proved just the opposite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 09:02 AM

Lonzo:

Bullshit.

Thanks for confirming my point.

May I suggest you seek professional help?


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 05:38 AM

Well Metchosin,

I suppose there's no answer to that! But as far as The Israelis are concerned, that's 'Just Us' for you!


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Metchosin
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 11:05 PM

come now Foolestroupe, they did let Vanunu out of jail after 18 years, although he's not allowed to talk to anyone and he can't leave to country. He's still a very dangerous man according to court reckoning and they are worried he just might spill some more secrets about imaginary stuff that they don't have any secrets about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive)
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 11:02 PM

So Pollard is the only person sitting in jail in the United States who shouldn't be?

Such a shame Leonard Peltier isn't a Jew- maybe his plight would get more press?


Greg F.,

Whether or not that was your intention, your comment is deeply offensive and its implications are recognizably anti-Semitic.

The Leonard Peltier case has had more prominence in the mainstream media than that of Jonathan Pollard.

Try doing Google searchs with each of their names in quotation marks. "Leonard Peltier" gets 54,300 hits. "Jonathan Pollard" gets 18,600.

Do a NEWS search at Google and "Leonard Peltier" gets 25 hits, most of them from mainstream media.

Do a NEWS search on "Jonathan Pollard" and you get 30 hits, 21 of which come from Jewish or Arab media outlets, and 3 of which are for other Jonathan Pollards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 10:41 PM

Actually, I have more sympathy for Mordechai Vanunu - he told the world about what could have been a very deadly secret, just like some Germans did in the late 30's/early 40's. And it's interesting that while trying to deny that what he said was true, they want to make an example of him for doing what he did for altruistic reasons. Lots of similarity, just on the other side of the fence...

Robin


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 10:24 PM

So Pollard is the only person sitting in jail in the United States who shouldn't be?

Such a shame Leonard Peltier isn't a Jew- maybe his plight would get more press?


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 09:04 PM

Alonzo; There are still some of us who practice our religion the good old fashioned way, as God meant it to be. We can not bend the Torah to fit the modern world or the 21st century idea of political correctness. In our orthodox enclave of Monsey, N.Y. there are no such things as conversion classes. Yes, there are converts, even in my own family, and I am proud of how righteous they are. But is more of a one on one situation rather than a mass classroom spectacle. But in every situation, the person was already a fully & properly converted Jew BEFORE meeting their prospective spouse, not vice versa. SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive)
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 08:01 PM

With all due respect, Rabbi-Sol, the interpretation of Jewish law and customs around issues of intermarriage, may reflect your own ulta-Orthdox community, but they do not reflect the reality of modern Judaism -- Modern Orthodox, Conservative, Reconstuctionist and Refirm -- as practiced by the vast majority of Jews in the world today.

Excommunication, sitting Shiva for someone who intermarries, it doesn't happen in the modern world.

As you probably well know, the vast majority of conversions occur specifically because a Jew and his or her non-Jewish partner have decided to have a Jewish home and raise their children as Jews. Walk into the conversion classes at almost any synagogue in America, and virtually every student is engaged to a Jew.


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 06:56 PM

ROBIN: I love it---will surely try once again.

Carol C: Thank you. Now---as to reading my mind---in what way do I think? You have a hell of an opening here for a really great comment---and, hopefully, I can reply to add some levity to this discussion that is going back to the place from whence I came---nowhere.

Bill H


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 06:44 PM

Grandma's Lysol has never failed before. You are just not scrubbing hard enough Bill.

Let's hear it loud and strong for Grandma's Lysol!!!
Good for everything around the place!!!
For your clothes, and dirty dishes,
For your hands, and for your face!!!

Oh!!! Clap your hands!!!


Robin


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 06:44 PM

Bill H, you are actually quite funny, but not at all in the way that you think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 06:34 PM

Jack/Sailor---I know you were not trying to be witty. Probably something you are incapable of give your attempt at humor in the Coulter post.

            It was I who, sadly, tried to do something witty by using your word "jerk" in a better context than you managed. Yours was that of one who could not find a better riposte.

            Please do continue to ignore me since it seems that since I landed on this alien planet you are one of the few people that have not been able to comprehend my alien postings. I must, truly, learn the local language rather than speaking in the terms used in the faraway sphere in the universe from whence I come. Kryptonite has not helped me whatsoever. Neither has Lysol. Perhaps I will try Thesaurus.

Bill H


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 06:26 PM

The excommunicated person is shunned by the greater community, but still remains Jewish. If they were to divorce the person of the other faith, they would be restored to the full privileges that they enjoyed prior to the marriage. Any children resulting from that union would be considered whatever the faith of the mother was. We Jews do not actively seek converts to our religion. In fact, we are told to discourage potential converts 3 times. If they still persist in wanting to become Jewish we can then accept them. However, that conversion must be done by a properly recognized Rabbinical tribunal & can not be done for an alterior motive, such as wanting to marry a Jewish spouse. The conversion must be strictly for the sake of the religion. Men must undergo circumcision and women must undergo immersion in a Mikvah (ritual bath). Once the person is properly converted, there is no problem with intermarriage. SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 06:07 PM

How recently ? SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 06:05 PM

Bill H.

Please try to understand this for your own good and self-awareness. I was not trying to be witty, I was dismissing your rantings as the words of a "jerk". Now that I have cleared up this unfortunate misunderstanding, I shall return to ignoring you, unless someone I respect, like Wolfgang, speaks up again.

Rabbi-Sol

I'm a little confused. If Dylan converts to Christianity he is still a Jew but if a Jew marries a Christian and does not convert then he is no longer a Jew and is excommunicated and mourned as dead?

So do I have this right?
If Dylan were to marry, say Anne Coulter, then he would be excommunicated and treated as dead? But if he subsequently divorced her then he would be able to then attend a Yeshiva and metaphorically be brought back to life?

I'm not trying to be disrespectfull of your beliefs. I used Anne Coulter as an example because to add some levity, but not to ridicule you or your beliefs,

The serious questions are how is coversion differenet from intermarriage? and what happens in the case of divorce?


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive)
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 05:59 PM

Rabbi-Sol,

You say that Dylan has returned to Christianity. My information is that you are incorrect about that. He has become very private about his practices, but I do know that he attended High Holiday services in recent years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive)
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 05:55 PM

And we're still waiting, Jack the Sailor, for you to tell us who are those "prominent Jewish groups" that you repeatedly mentioned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 05:47 PM

Rabbi-Sol,

Perhaps they should have turned him instead of gratefully accepting the fruits of his crime? Before he was caught redhanded? As it was they turned him in when he was no longer usefull. That's little more than a gesture.

Rabbi-Sol

Are seriously asking Carol to do your research for you a second time? I am happy to stipulate that you are sincere. If choose to supply more sources to back your assertions, we'll ba happy to read what you post. If not, lets just leave things as they are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 05:47 PM

On the subject of intermarriage, yes, the liberal branches of Judaism such as Reconstructionist, Reform & Conservative have a more liberal attitude and policy towards it. However, I am a strictly Orthodox Jew (complete with long beard and yarmulke), and am bound by strict Torah law. That means Excommunication and sitting shiva for the offending family member. As far as Bob Dylan goes, he was born a Jew and in the eyes of Torah law will always remain one, no matter how many gallons of holy water he has been baptised with. For the record, he did go to Lubavitch for a while to return to his roots. He then attended a Yeshiva in Far Rockaway, Queens, N.Y. under the leadership of Rabbi Freifeld, with the intention of becoming Orthodox.
However that proved to be short lived, as he has now once again become a "born again" Christian. But in the eyes of Torah law, he remains and will always be a Jew. The same holds true for Cardinal Lustiger of France SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 05:45 PM

Wit is in the eye (ear) of the beholder---it may well be that you have not found the humor in some of my comments about yourself and the charming ( Iam sure) spouse. Now the word "jerk"---do enlighten me as to what is witty about that---perhaps you used it as in the term "I am jerking your chain"---looks like I succeeded.

Witty enough for you?

Bill H


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 05:38 PM

Bill H,

If you do ever say anthing witty please be sure to point it out. I'll leave it to anyone reading this thread to decide who has been the "haranguer" (sic) and who has reacted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 05:32 PM

Jack, In your post, you stated that a true friend and ally of the USA would have turned Pollard over to the authorites immediately. Well, that is exactly what Israel did. If you read Bill H's post that was culled from Pollard's website, you will see that when Pollard sought refuge in the Israeli Embassy, he was turned away, right in to the waiting arms of the FBI who were outside to take him into custody. SOL ZELLER


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