BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 05:14 PM

Can you provide some sources for your information, Rabbi Sol, so we can have a look at it ourselves? That's pretty standard procedure in serious discussions here in the Mudcat.

I saw some articles from Jewish organizations that put forth the argument that Pollard was responsible, himself, for the way he was treated because he tried to circumvent the justice system by trying win his case through the court of public opinion. Thay said that he had tried to make himself out to be a hero and was courting hero status among Jews in the US and especially in Israel, and that this created a very delicate situation for those who are trying to preserve the integrity of the US intelligence agencies.

I also just finished reading an article about Mordechai Vanunu, and his assertion that he was, and is being treated unjustly by the government of Israel because he has converted to Christianity. Personally, I don't think his being a Christian has anything at all to do with how he is treated by the government of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 05:00 PM

From what I have heard, the information that Pollard passed on to Israel was information that Israel was supposed to get anyhow as a matter of course, due to an arrangement that they had with the USA. It specificaly dealt with the nuclear reactor that Sadaam had built at Osiris,which constituted a direct threat to Israel. For some reason or other, Pollard saw that this information was deliberately being witheld and not being transmitted to Israel in a timely manner as it was supposed to have been. He took it upon himself to transmit this material on his own, knowing that he broke the law and ready to accept the consequences of his actions when he was caught. He felt that Israel was in imminent danger of a nuclear holocaust, knowing the type of a person Sadaam was. Apparently he was right, because the Israeli Air Force acted immediately and took out the reactor in a heroic surprise attack. Not only did this save Jewish lives in Israel, but it also saved American lives as well. Imagine what would have happened had Iraq been allowed to develop these atomic weapons. They definitely would have used them in the first Gulf War when they launched scud missles against Israel as well as against American troops stationed in Saudi Arabia. Pollard did not do it for money. He felt that he was saving lives, and was ready to go to prison if necessary. However, he never imagined a life sentence, especially after agreeing to a plea arrangement with the prosecution. When Rosa Parks or Martin Luther King broke laws that they felt were unjust, they later became heros. They were never branded a traitors except by those bigoted KKK sympathizers and white supremecists. The question of why Pollard's superiors did not want him to transmit the information can be answered in one word: OIL. Casper Weinberger and his cohorts were so scared of the Arabs shutting off the petroleum spigot, that they witheld this information, knowing full well what Israel would do once they obtained it. When the Arab & Communist dominated UN condemmed Israel for this heroic attack on the reactor, Weinberger (Becthtel Corp.), promised the Saudis and the rest of the Arab world that "Pollard The Jew", would be punished as harshly as was within his power to do so. That is why I am saying that Pollard was tried as an American but punished as a Jew. If Pollard were released, there is no way that he could further damage the security or reputation of the United States. I doubt very much that the CIA would re-hire him and give him the same access to sensitive and classified information that he once had. He would probably go to Israel and live out the remainder of his life in peace and quiet. If you ask where I got this information from ? I personally know Rabbis and other officials of Jewish organizations who visit Pollard in prison on a regular basis. This is the story as he tells it to them.
SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 04:03 PM

Rabbi-Sol, Why don't you explain your position before you take such an interest in mine.

Why are you trying to defend a traitor to your country? Why are you trying to excuse what he has done when, in fact you have no knowledge of the magnitude of his crime? Why are you not condemning Israel for turning citizens against their own country?

What I'm saying.
I'm pretty convinced that he was sentenced harshly because he did more damage than the other people you mentioned. Judges are given that kind of leeway and they can rely on government officals to decide. What I am also saying is that, if Jewish groups are successful in gaing his early release that will do further damage to the security and reputation of the US.

I'm saying that

"tried and convicted as an American but was sentenced and punished as a Jew."

Seems like a provocative and ignorant thing to say. I'm waiting for you to explain it or retract it.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 03:38 PM

So what you are saying in effect Jack, is that someone who spies for a friend and ally, deserves a much harsher sentence than one who spies for an avowed enemy of the USA, because they have to be held to higher standard. The fact that that country was Israel and not another friendly nation does not enter into the equation at all. Is that an accurate statement of your position in this matter ? SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 11:48 AM

Rabbi-Sol

For all we know, it could have been a check from Bechtel or the Saudi government payable to the judge for 1 million dollars.

Not you taking your hyperbole to ridiculous lengths. All it had to be was a note to the judge saying that Pollard, is a continuing threat to US security and a recommendation for a maximum sentence.


You said

tried and convicted as an American but was sentenced and punished as a Jew

That seems like an inditment of a lot more than Weinburger. You have yet to explain this statement.

Why would Pollard have pleaded guilty in the first place if he was going to get a life sentence anyhow ?

For all we know the FBI pointed out the harm that he was doing to his own country and he felt genuine remorse. While we are speculating wildly, for all we know he was shown the bodies of Americans killed by Mossad because of information he had given Israel. I don't believe that is what happened, my point is that it is pointless to agrue wild specuations.

Rabbi-Sol, I have not brought your loyalty into question, I have pointed out the appearance of divided loyalty. It appears that you are defending this man, and are attacking your government because he spied for Israel. I am a Canadian working toward citizenship in the USA, If an American were caught spying for Canada, I'd be ashamed and angry at the Canadian goverment for taking the information. I'd be angry at the US if they did not prosecuting him fully. Friends and allies should be held to a higher standard. They shouldn't be taking the benefits of alliance on one hand and use spying and dirty tricks on the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 10:56 AM

GUEST, everyone in North America is an immigrant from somewhere else....

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 10:46 AM

Can someone please explain to me how giving Pollard a life sentance and keeping him in jail (or for treating him any differently than any other American caught spying against the US) serves the oil interests and the Republican party?

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 10:25 AM

Where does Jack the Sailor get off questioning anyone's loyalty to the USA? He's a Canadian who married his way into the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 11:40 PM

Hi Jack, The Sabbath is over and I am back on line. I did not accuse the U.S. Government of anti-semitism. I accused one man, Casper Weinberger of exerting undue influence on what is supposed to be an INDEPENDENT judiciary system. A deal was struck for Pollard to plead guilty and get a specific determinate sentence. Enter, Casper Weinberger representing the Executive branch of the government (as well as the Saudi oil cartel), with a secret memorandum to Judge Aubrey Robinson and presto, the deal does a vanishing act and Pollard is given a life sentence. And no one is ever allowed to see what was in that secret memorandum because it is classified information. For all we know, it could have been a check from Bechtel or the Saudi government payable to the judge for 1 million dollars. Why would Pollard have pleaded guilty in the first place if he was going to get a life sentence anyhow ? He would have nothing to lose by going to trial. A previous poster mentioned the fact that an individual who spied for Iraq during the first Gulf War got only 19 years. Pollard has already served 20 years of a life sentence. Is that the equal justice under the law as mandated by our Constitution ? And should the fact that I am questioning the fairness of the sentencing proceedings in this case (which I have every right to do as an American citizen), bring my own loyalty to our USA into question simply because Pollard & I both happen to be Jewish ? SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 11:26 PM

Haven't you been following the International News Rap?

The Jewish guy who released the secret info in the 1970's that Israel had a Nuclear Weapons program was released from jail a while ago, but is not free to leave Israel even though he has converted to Christianity, and wants to seek political asylum in the USA.

Hmmmm.... waiting to see if he would make it into this thread....

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 10:38 PM

What would have been the result, I wonder, if Israel had captured someone spying ON Israel FOR the US? Say, an Arab-American or a Muslim?

I'm quite serious, and I'm trying to make the situation analogous.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 12:28 PM

Artbrooks,

Thanks for the support, I guess, I've been careful to try to stick to what I think is the point. Thank you for recognizing that this discussion is about opinions on Pollard and not about some weird, arbitrary definition of "Antisemitism" from anonymous guests.

I was giving my gut reation, the Pollard case does not concern me. To be frank if Rabbi-Sol had not accused the Government of antisemitism, I wouldn't have bothered. The US government has gone out on a limb for Israel so many times. How many votes in the UN have essentially been the entire body against the US and Israeli, Israel should thank God every day fro the US's veto. The US is giving Israel enormous amounts of military aid and more financial aid than any other country. To accuse the government of "trying as an American and punishing as a Jew", is, to say the least, worthy of note.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 11:39 AM

This opinion piece in the Jewish Media Resources website makes the exact same point that JtS was making in his 24 Jul 04 - 12:39 AM post:

Better free than a hero

by Jonathan Rosenblum
Jerusalem Post

"...Those who prefer to keep the focus exclusively on the goal of securing Pollard's release have frequently incurred the wrath of the activist core. As an example, one dedicated Pollard supporter recently ridiculed HaModia for "worrying excessively about possible charges of dual loyalty." The paper's crime? At the end of a long article detailing the procedural and substantive injustices in the Pollard case, its columnist concluded, "This article does not intend to glorify or even condone Pollard's crime. Anyone who works for an organization like the [United States] Navy undertakes to consider only the interests of the United States."

But the Pollard case does raise issues of "dual loyalty" – just ask any Jew working in American intelligence about the stares he or she was subjected to after the case broke. And American Jews are entitled to be concerned about that issue. Pollard has repeatedly insisted that he did what did out of profound love for Israel, not out of any venal financial motives. Likely Pollard was convinced that none of the information he handed Israel could damage American interests, but still his motivation was his love of Israel...

...Too often Pollard's supporters have shown a preference for emotionally satisfying symbolic gestures and harangues to building a larger coalition of support. At a Jerusalem rally two weeks ago, his attorney called him a symbol of America's consistent failure to honor promises. What is the point of remarks calculated to infuriate the president of the United States, the one person who has the power to free Pollard from jail?

Jonathan Pollard's dwindling band of intense supporters must ask themselves: Would we rather have him free or hailed as a hero? Let's hope they choose freedom."

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 11:05 AM

Interesting to see CarolC and Jack the Sailor standing firm in their support for the Reagan Administration strategy of Middle East politics dictated then, as now in Republican circles, by the agenda of the oil administration. Remember who Reagan's VP was? W's daddy, of course.

Under the previous Carter Administration, we brokered a peace between Israel and Egypt. Peace making, was never on the agenda of the Reublicans. Not under Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Daddy Bush or W. Rather, the agenda of the oil industry has been firmly in control.

The out-of-whack sentence in the Pollard case was part of the Republican/oil industry agenda to show oil countries like Iraq (Saadam Hussein was an ally of the Reagan Administration)and Saudi Arabia (then, as now, the Saudis and Bushes are inextricably linked) that they, and their oil, not Israel, were the priority. Do you think that the Republicans cared an iota about the Jewish vote? Not with Jews always voting 80-90% for Democratic, rather than Republican
candidates.

As for Weinberger's role. The Jewishness of his father was never a factor in his life. Greed, power and money were always his motivations. Look where he ended up, Bechtel Corporation, a company in bed with the Bushes, the Saudi royal family and the Bin Laden family.

While Weinberger was the point man who squashed the judge in the Pollard affair, most of the dirty work was done by Pat Buchannan. Anyone who knows anything about American politics knows that Buchannan is as blatant an anti-Semite who has risen to the corridors of power in the past 50 years.

The major result of Pollard's espionage on behalf of Israel was the information that Israel needed to take out Iraq's nuclear bomb factory. Given how things have played out between Iraq and America in the years since, the Israelis did the world a major favor with that strike.

The only democratic president to hold power in the years since the Pollard imprisonment has been Bill Clinton. Clinton was the only president since Carter to seriously pursue a peace agenda in the Middle East and it can be assumed that he avoided pardoning Pollard because it would upset the delicate negotiations that he was pursuing. At the end of his term, many thought that Clinton would go ahead and pardon Pollard. However, by that time, things in that administration had become so cynical that it was money that did the talking (look up the Mark Rich case).

What it all boils down to is that the sentence handed down in the Pollard case was dictated by the extreme right wing agenda of the oil industry and their Republican puppets; the same people now firmly in control of the White House. The same people responsible for the first Gulf War under Daddy Bush. The same people responsible for what's happening now in Iraq. That's the agenda that CarolC and Jack the Sailor have been defending in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 09:21 AM

Rabbi-Sol asked for opinions on Mr. Pollard and his situation.

While I rarely agree with CarolC's perspectives on anything regarding the Middle East, I respect her right to have them...and the rights of others, named or otherwise. to agree or disagree. However, and without bothering to count, I believe that this discussion now has far more entries attacking her opinions and her sources, and her responses to these attacks, than it does about Pollard. Is it conceivable that we could respect the attempt by a member to solicit opinions on a topic that is clearly important to him and others, and put the bullshit aside?

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 08:58 AM

I think that having the government of Israel and all of these Jewish groups screaming for his release is probably not doing him any favor

Is it possible for Jack the Sailor to ever say anything about Israel without wrapping it in his hate-mongering lies? Obviously not.

If Jack the Sailor ever reads the links that Mrs. Jack the Sailor posts, he would know that the government of Israel has never done a thing to pursue Pollard's release.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 12:51 AM

Justice for Jonathan Pollard: The official Website authorized by Jonathan & Esther Pollard (http://www.jonathanpollard.org/)

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 12:41 AM

Isn't someone here to delete things like this?

From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 12:00 AM

maybe some should gather up what carolc and jack the sailor have had to say about the us government, about president bush and other leaders, and print it up and send copies to homeland security and the fbi. then we'll see who's "loyal" and who's not.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 12:39 AM

Rabbi-Sol, an US citizen comes on here and accuses the government of this country of Anti semitism.

So are you saying the government of the US has locked up this man and punished him cruely and unusually because Caspar Weinberger, whose father was a Jew, hates Jews so much that he has singled out this one man for special punishment?

There couldn't be another reason? Maybe one that has to do with national security? Come on people!!?? Sorry Rabbi-sol this story just does not pass my smell test.

As a Rabbi, I understand your desire to stick up for Jews, but I don't like to see that applied to traitors. Especially traitors who spy for Israel. The apperance of conflict of interest does Mr. Pollard no good and it also reinforces negative stereotypes.

I think that having the government of Israel and all of these Jewish groups screaming for his release is probably not doing him any favor, the message sent to other potential spies would be disasterous. Maybe if y'all would let up, and maybe condemn him for spying on your own home country, maybe promise not to give him a parade, you might give him and the government a chance to work things out.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 12:05 AM

"Pollard's own website," CarolC. The guy's been in solitary confinement since long before Al Gore invented the web. They don't let inmates in solitary have websites. Just another of your lies and distortions.

Oh! You mean a website in support of Pollard. That's something entirely different than "Pollard's own website."

Good night Carol. Give Jack a kiss for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 12:00 AM

maybe some should gather up what carolc and jack the sailor have had to say about the us government, about president bush and other leaders, and print it up and send copies to homeland security and the fbi. then we'll see who's "loyal" and who's not.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 11:53 PM

GUEST, you need to try to understand that most people don't really know anything about the Pollard case. In fact, on one site I was looking in, they said that one of the major news outlets had done a survey and found that the vast majority of people who knew anything about the case at all thought Pollard was spying on Russia rather than on the US. Most of the websites that have any information at all on the subject are not what one would consider objective, and most of them contain conflicting information. It's not hatred that causes people to be confused by this issue. It's a lack of non-conflicting sources of information.

All of the information I posted in this thread about the Pollard case (and most of the informaion JtS was working with about it), comes from POLLARD'S OWN WEBSITE (and Rabbi Sol's initial post). Including the information about Israel not being willing to return the stolen goods. If you have a problem with it, take it up with Mr. Pollard. This includes the information that Pollard got the life sentance because Israel isn't willing to return the stolen goods. And if anyone has a problem with the US government holding Pollard for that reason, their loyalty to this country should be called into question.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 11:20 PM

This thread started to become the train wreck that it is when Jack the Sailor introduced his ignorance and hatred in post #3:

"I think it is disgusting that the US let the Israelis grant him citizenship and take him out of the country...Special treatment for Israel is wrong and it should stop immediately."

As Alonzo quickly pointed out, Jack was lying when he said the US allowed Israel to take him out of the country.

Jack the Sailor was lying when he said the US allowed the Israelis to grant Pollard citizenship. The US has no say in what any other country chooses to make its criteria for citizenship.

Jack the Sailor was lying when he said Israel was receiving special treatment. In fact, it's been shown that Pollard (Israel's not the criminal here, Pollard is) has been treated much more harshly in this matter than any other person convicted of a similar crime.

Jack the Sailor's hate-mongering in this thread have been blatant.

And then there's this whopper that came from you:

"Maybe your energies would be better spent if you were to try to persuade Ariel Sharon to return the stolen materials. Indeed, as a loyal US citizen, that should be your first priority."

Your hate-mongering implication is that an American's loyalty is suspect because he thinks that Pollard's sentence is unjust. Talk about McCarthyism, you reek of it. Furthermore, there's an assumption in your suggestion that as an American Jew, the Rabbi has some sort of in with Ariel Sharon. There's more than a hint of anti-Semitism in that implication.

You and Jack are real pieces of work.


Why should any American's loyalty have one in the US have persuading

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 10:57 PM

Well, GUEST,A Mudcat Observer, I disagree with you on the nature of the threads in question and the posts contained within them, as well as your assesment of my posts and the accuracy of the information I present. But I imageine you knew I would do that.

So instead of trying to engage in a back and forth debate on our disagreements in those regards, I'll just quote Israel Shahak instead:

Any form of racism, discrimination and xenophobia becomes more potent and politically influential if it is taken for granted by the society which indulges in it. This is especially so if its discussion is prohibited, either formally or by tacit agreement.

Racism, discrimination, and hate speach against Arabs and Muslims is so taken for granted here in the US, people don't even see it when it's right there in front of their eyes. And if anyone tries to bring it up, they are castigated and even abused for doing so.

This thread started to became the traing wreck it is when JtS and I were accused of posting to it just because the spy in question was Jewish. And implied accusation of anti-Semitism if ever I saw one.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: GUEST,A Mudcat observer
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 10:21 PM

Near as I can observe, there have been three recent threads that touch on The Middle East.

This one, which Rabbi-Sol started about a prison sentence for a Jewish man in the United States that seems disporportionate to his crime. No hate-mongering.

A second thread, started by a guest, about an Arab newspaper editorial calling for Arafat, a corrupt politician, to resign. No hate-mongering.

A third thread, started by Amos, that drew attention to an essay by an Israeli professor who was critical of Moslems who are silent while other Moslems, of the Hamas and Al-Qaieda variety, have murdered thousands in the name of Islam. That is not hate-mongering, that is calling attention to a very real problem in the world today. And there are leading Moslem intellectuals, Irshad Manji comes to mind, who have made exactly the same point.

In more than one thread, I've seen you attack Sharon as a Nazi and criminal, you condemn Israel for electing him as their leader. And
yet you don't condemn Arafat for his long history as a terrorist and defend him as the elected leader of the Palestinians and make the point that it is only the Palestinians who have the right to choose their leader. Well, if that's true for the Palestinians, then its true for the Israelis as well.

You have often said that the Israelis are committing genocide and ethnic cleansing. That is a hate-mongering lie.

I feel very sorry for you and the fact that you do not recognize yoyr obsession for what it is.

That's all I've to say to you. I will not fall into the trap of a long argument with you. As others have observed, you just wear people down with your obsessiveness. That's it for me. I'm outta here. As Ryan Seacrest might say, "Mudcat observer, out!"

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 09:44 PM

GUEST,A Mudcat Observer, have you also noticed that I have never started a single thread on any of those subjects (with the exception of one continuation thread because someone asked me to as a favor). If I was really on a crusade, I would be starting threads to express my opinions about those subjects several times a week as others do here. But I would much rather see them disappear from the Mudcat altogether, deleted just like the threads that incite hatred towards Jews.

It's the people who start the hate-mongering threads who are on the crusade.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 09:35 PM

i've noticed that, sooner or later, every thread that starts out about israel or palestine eventually ends up being about carolc.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: GUEST,A Mudcat observer
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 09:32 PM

I really dislike the threads on the subject of the Middle East, Arabs, Muslims, and Israel. I'd really appreciate an opportunity to just have some fun in here for a change.

Have a look at any of the threads that you claim to dislike so much. You, or you in tandem with Jack the Sailor, dominante every single one of them. You give the strong impression that you are consumed by a crusade. Without you and Jack, most of those threads would come and go much quicker. This thread is no exception, you and Jack are responsible for almost half the posts.

And frankly, there have been many occasions when you have instigated the nastiness by such tactics as comparing people who disagree with your to Nazis.

If you dislike the threads, don't perpetuate them. If you want to have an opportunity to just have some fun, then take it. I assume that researching and posting on the subject of the Middle East at Mudcat is not a full time job for which you're getting a huge salary. So nobody's forcing you to spend all of your time consumed by an obsession to counter every last post of a pro-Israeli nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 09:08 PM

This seems to be your favored topic

No, actually I don't enjoy this topic at all. I have no opinion on the subject of whether or not Pollard should be released, but I do have some pretty big problems with the assertion made in the opening post that Pollard is being treated unjustly just because he is Jewish. And I have an even bigger problem with the idea that it is not permissable for anyone to question the assertions that have been made in the opening post.

And I really dislike the threads on the subject of the Middle East, Arabs, Muslims, and Israel. I'd really appreciate an opportunity to just have some fun in here for a change. But threads that target whole groups of people take a lot of the fun out of the Mudcat for me. I have difficulty just sitting by watching while people are promoting hatred. Makes it diffucult for me to feel good about myself if I do that.

Thank you for your kind words, GUEST,Lyle.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 08:59 PM

McG of H; Good point. Exactly what I was trying to say---

Lyle: Carol C is her own version of Limbaugh and/or Fox News. Diatribes galore----not a bad title for a program---she should go on TV with it. Can I get an agent's commission for thinking up the title?


Bill H.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 08:48 PM

The thing I appreciate about Rabbi Sol is that he doesn't ever get into that name-calling crap, or labelling anyone who disagrees him with that phony "anti-semitic" label. I wish that the hate squad would use him as a role model.

I'd rather assume that what's involved in this case wasn't actually anything to do with the US legal system being anti-Jewish, but rather that's there's been some kind of horse-trading involved. Maybe there wasn't any US spy being held by Israel for an undercover exchange.

A dirty business anyway. And barbaric.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: GUEST,Lyle
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 08:45 PM

CarolC:

This may not mean much to you, because we don't know each other, and I doubt we ever will. I've been watching mudcat grow from its inception, and was part of the predecessor groups that eventually became Mudcat, so I have been watching things here for a long, long time. There are several reasons that I seldom post, none of which are important here.

I know you only through your posts. With some I agree, with many I am neutral, and with some I RESPECTFULLY disagree. Regardless of how I feel about your posts, I have ALWAY found them to be much more reasoned than about 98% of the posts here, and the reasons for what you believe has always been given. But much like this thread, you get stones thrown your way far too often from posters who do not exhibit your logical arguments and certainly demonstrate an inferior intelligence to yours. Far too often those who are the meanest in their demeanor toward you remind me of the screaming "news" shows on Fox or the radio shows like Rush L, while your posts are like the calm, reasoned approach of PBS.

Keep up the great posting you do. There is at least one old timer who greatly admires you!

Lyle

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 08:45 PM

I am not dominating---as you say. Merely observing what seems to set you off.   This seems to be your favored topic---I, for one, find this topic not more important or interesting than others. But your name does seem to dominate it in the most dogmatic way. One has to wonder why---though another poster did say---and I should have listened---you wear everyone one down.

Have you figured out yet that your popularity and insights are not considered all that significant?   

Once again---anchors aweigh as I sail off to avoid irrational confrontation and polemical diatribes by you and the captain of the good ship that you both seem to inhabit in the area of our dear Southland.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 08:12 PM

Bill H, on no other subject is a reponse that differs from the one expected by the one who starts the thread subject to as much dirision, condescension, and even hatred as on the subject of Israel when people question the dominant orthodoxy. I speak my mind freely on other subjects and I don't experience this sort of phenomenon. I attribute it to a need for people like you to control the debate, and to not allow any dissenting opinions to be presented.

People accuse me of dominating these discussions, but all I do is present information and opinions on the subject matter. I don't resort to personal abuse against those who disagree with me. In any argument, it takes two to tango. The one who resorts to personal abuse is the one who is trying to control the debate. Sorry if you don't like people challenging your need for dominance. Tough luck as they say.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 07:49 PM

Well, Carol at least give me credit for alliteration and nice analogies given that you have opened yourself up for exactly that type of response given that the ship's rudder is in the center position and will never change course.

I sure do hope one of you does ply the waters or the humor is lost and misplaced.

You will also note that I no longer can reply to any of your comments seriously---humor, many times, puts things into perspective for people.


By the way---Little Brother makes a point since I had seen a play about the Pollard case a while back.   Probably lost on Carol and We Sail The Ocean Blue---or other nautical screen names. Anti semitism was never the issue. Fairness in sentencing and covering up our own espionage errors was.

Anchors aweigh.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Little Brother
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 07:26 PM

I think that he shouild at least be given a chance to appeal which has been denied him due to mistakes made by his previous attorney. Also one of the secrets he revealed to the Israelis was the nuclear reactor being built by the Iraquis which the Israelis later blew up. Can you imagine if they had nuclear capabilities. The US had that information why didn't they act on it themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 07:13 PM

Correction: second to last post.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 07:12 PM

Bill H, your post is exactly the kind of personal abuse I was refering to in my last post to the Rabbi.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 07:01 PM

Rabbi Sol:   I have learned----anything relating to Israel sets of a feeding frenzy from the Alabama activists aka Carol C , Jack the Sailor . I guess they just sail into frenzies leaving rational discussion in the sailor's wake.

Give up.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 06:37 PM

Have a good Sabbath Rabbi Sol.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 06:35 PM

My Sabbath is fast approaching and I must go off line now until 10 PM tomorrow night. I expect that this thread will have grown considerably by then, and I look forward to a further discussion of the issues in this case. Shabbat Shalom    SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 06:27 PM

It's really difficult for us to have opinions when the facts of the case are so difficult to pin down. And when I posted in this thread, trying to help figure out what some of the cause and effect might be, you said that I wouldn't have posted to this thread if it wasn't about a Jew.

I'm having tremendous difficulty attributing Pollard's situation to anti-Semitism in the US. That just makes no sense at all in today's political climate. And for me to think so does not in any way make me anti-Semitic.

And I've got to say, of all of the issues that I post about here in the Mudcat, even when my views are highly controversial (as they frequently are), it is on subjects like this one that I recieve the most personal abuse from people who disagree with me. So yeah, it starts to look like hate-mongering after a while.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 06:13 PM

Carol. Who are the targets that you are referring to ? My sole purpose in starting this thread was to discuss an issue of equal justice under the law or the lack thereof. I had no targets in mind. I merely asked for opinions on this particular issue. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 06:07 PM

Ok, here's the deal, GUEST. I'm just really sick and tired of people trying to use the Mudcat to foment hatred towards whole groups of people, whether those people would happend to be Muslims, Arabs, people in the US who are not Jewish (like, for instance the targets of this thread), and, yes, even Jews. Fortunately for me, any time someone starts a thread that is started for the purpose of fomenting hatred toward Jews here in the Mudcat, it is promptly deleted (as it should be). Unfortunately, the threads that are started to foment hatred toward certain other groups are usually not deleted.

BTW, I have also spoken up agains anti-Semitism when the need has arisen here in the Mudcat, and I will continue to do so as needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 06:04 PM

He was never allowed any appeal whatsoever. There was recently another hearing in District Court (not a higher one) to try to get his new attorneys who have top security clearance access to the accusatory documents. This was denied by the judge. A new motion is now being prepared to argue that his original attorney acted incompetently in his failure to appeal the harsher sentence, before the statutory limit. This too is not expected to meet with much success. Many Jewish organizations are appealing to President Bush to commute Pollard's sentence to time already served. There is a feeling that Bush might try to use this as a pawn to garner the Jewish vote in the upcoming election. Four years ago there was hope that then President Clinton would issue a pardon. However, you all know the story. Pollard was a poor man and Mark Rich had the greenbacks to back up his case. It was a no brainer as far as Clinton was concerned. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 05:57 PM

carolc and her consort are always oh so predictable. when it comes to islamist terrorists vs. the usa, we are the evil ones. in the case of a jew or israel, they are patriotic americans. take anything they say with not a grain, but a huge shaker, of salt. carolc and her consort are prime examples of the modern anti-semites who hide behind their opposition to israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 05:55 PM

BTW, in that Sharon interview, Pollard's wife was theorizing about why nobody in Israel has made any effort to get him released. She was saying that the usual response for the government of Israel is to make requests, write letters, and even send delegations to the US on behalf of the agent who is captured. She said that the government of Israel has done none of those things.

She thinks that the members of the Israeli government who were involved with Pollard during the time when he was committing espionage against the US are still in power (Sharon included), and that they don't want him free because they are trying to cover up their own involvement. She said they even tried to pay him off to the tune of two million dollars to leave them alone about it. This is Pollard's wife we're talking about here.

PM Sharon's "Cheap Shot" - An Interview With Esther Pollard

Sharon search in Pollard's website

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 05:50 PM

Perhaps the sentencing phase should be reopened in Pollard's case. Or, better still, in the other cases.

Unless...are there perhaps some underlying reasons that it shouldn't be? For instance, are there things Pollard passed on which were much, much more sensitive than was brought out in the trial?

IF he should he be released, I don't think he should be allowed to leave the US.

From my perspective, it wouldn't matter WHO you were spying for. Treason is treason.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 05:42 PM

Like I said before, it looks like Pollard is still strategically usefull to the US government. That is, if the quote attributed to Ariel Sharon in Pollard's own website is accurate. Considering the fact that he put the security of this country in jeopardy with his actions, if he can be of service to the US government now in any way whatsoever, I think he should do it. Why won't Israel return the stolen materials to the US? Maybe your energies would be better spent if you were to try to persuade Ariel Sharon to return the stolen materials. Indeed, as a loyal US citizen, that should be your first priority.

On the subject of Ginsberg and the Supreme Court, I'm having a lot of trouble finding any sort of coherent narrative of what has actually taken place. I'm turning up all kinds of conflicting information in the sites I'm encountering on the subject, even among those who are in support of Pollard. One of these sites said that his appeal had reached the Supreme Court, but I'll be darned if I can figure out which of the sites is giving accurate information.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For Jonathan Pollard
From: Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive)
Date: 23 Jul 04 - 05:35 PM

Well CarolC, as I pointed out, spying for Great Britain results in a 2 year sentence and release after 3 months. That's the unjust difference.