Guitar for Session Accompaniment Q's???

Subject: DADGAD Guitar For Session Accompniment Q's???
From: GUEST,Briggfoot-in-Coventry
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 11:04 AM

hello everybody!!!

i recently posted a massive long question on thesession.org JUST as the forum server went down and i lost it all.

so i'l keep this one brief. at warwick festival last weekend, i went to a session with my fiddle and ended up next to a young bloke on guitar called Ben (i think!) who lives in a caravan next to his work.

anyway, i loved the sound of DADGAD tuning, and now i want to learn to at least accompany tunes on guitar.

on the session i got lots of replies about dorian mixylodian aerolian etc etc tunes.

i think i now understand all of that.

The Question: can you guitarists tell, by looking at, or hearing a tune, whether it is for example, Dmaj, Edorian, Amixylodian, or Bm.

Apparantly a way to work out what key it is in is the note that phrases end on. will a Edorian piece still end on D because it is in Dmaj.

i have had a look at some tunes that are Dorian etc, and cant spot and trends.

hope this one posts this time!!

all the best
andy

Subject: RE: Gguitar For Session Accompniment Q's???
From: GUEST,Briggfoot-in-Coventry
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 11:06 AM

please excuse my AWFUL spelling in the subject!!!

andy

Subject: RE: Gguitar For Session Accompniment Q's???
From: KateG
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 12:08 PM

Actually, an E dorian piece will end on E because that's the key tone. However, it will have the same key signature as D major - two sharps.

Without going into a lot of theory, here's a quick way to spot modes:

    Ionian = major, so key signature and key tone will match. C = no sharps or flats, G = one sharp (F#), D = two sharps (F#, C#) etc.

    Aeolian = minor, key signature and key tone will match normal expectations, i.e. the key signature will be the same as it's relative major. Am = no sharps or flats, Em = one sharp (F#), Bm = two sharps (F#, C#), etc.

    Mixolidian = sounds major, but with a flatted seventh, so it looks like it's missing a sharp. C mix = one flat (Bb), G mix = no sharps or flats (F is natural), D mix = one sharp (F#, C is natural), etc.

    Dorian = sounds minory, but with a sharped sixth, so it looks like it has one sharp too many. A dor = one sharp (F#), E dor = two sharps (F#, C#), B dor (F#, C#, G#) etc.

Some publishers write Mix & Dorian tunes as if they were major and minor and use accidentals for the extra flats and sharps (ie a D mix tune would have the key signature of D major, but all the C's would have a natural sign), others use the key signature that fits the mode, but the key tone looks out of whack for the signature (ie a D mix tune would have the key signature of G major - one sharp - but the key tone would be D rather than the expected G).

There's no consistency on this, and only rarely do publishers acknowledge that the tune is modal, even though lots of folk music is modal. I've had fun going through my books and figuring out what the mode really is - and there are lots of tunes, especially Irish ones that shift mode without changing key tone.

Subject: RE: Guitar For Session Accompniment Q's???
From: briggfoot-in-coventry
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 12:53 PM

thanks Kate for the responce.

Aeolian looks easy enough, its minor.
Major or Ionian is just major so that should be ok.

when you say

"Mixolidian = sounds major, but with a flatted seventh, so it looks like it's missing a sharp. C mix = one flat (Bb), G mix = no sharps or flats (F is natural), D mix = one sharp (F#, C is natural), etc."

Dmix, do you mean, the mixylodian OF G, or do you just mean: for the Mixylodian of D which will be A???

from what i understand, Dmixylodian only has the F# anyway as it is the mixylodian of G, which only has the F#.
so howcome it looks like its missing a sharp??

i may have got the wrong end of the stick entirely, its complicated stuff!!

cheers for the help
andy

Subject: RE: Gguitar For Session Accompniment Q's???
From: breezy
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 05:52 PM

bloody hell!!!

most tunes are in either G, D and occasionally A depending on the influence of the m'l'd''ns and c'nc'rt'n's

or some minors

aint they?

but use a tuner

and get a loudun

Subject: RE: Gguitar For Session Accompniment Q's???
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 06:28 PM

If you are accompanying Irish tunes , you don't need to know any of that stuff.

Just keep strumming loudly in Em, and change to D occasionally.

Occasionally, make a foray up the neck, playing chords which have absolutely no connection with the melody. Again, play loudly.

Everybody will think you are really great.

Subject: RE: Gguitar For Session Accompniment Q's???
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 07:05 PM

I've seen Murray playing accompaniments and it seems to work well :<}>
I believe he playin regularly ot the Pine trees hotel in Pitlochry
Kenny B

Subject: RE: Gguitar For Session Accompniment Q's???
From: KateG
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 07:13 PM

Briggfoot

I think you've been lead into unnecessary complications by classical musicians.

A mode is a scale, ie a pattern of whole and half steps. Nothing more, nothing less. Just as with the major and minor scales, the pattern can start on any note.

Where people get confused is that the underlying patterns are based on the diatonic rather than the chromatic pattern of whole and half steps - think the white notes on the piano keyboard. And each mode has a pattern based on the pattern you would get if you started your scale at a different point on the keyboard.

What we call the major scale (ionian mode) has the pattern whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half. If you start it on C, you only play the white notes on the keyboard and get a C major scale. If you want to start on D, you have to use the black keys at C# and F# to preserve the pattern and you get a D major scale. But no matter what note you start on, any sequence of eight notes with that pattern is a major scale, and it takes its name from its key tone - ie the note it starts/ends on.

The minor scale (aka aeolian mode), has the pattern whole, half, whole, whole, half, whole, whole. If you start it on A (A minor), you only play the white notes (just like C major). If you start on E (E minor), you need to add an F# to preserve the pattern. But again, any sequence of notes with that pattern is a minor scale (I'm refering here to the natural minor scale, caused by harmonic and melodic minors are variations that delight classical musicians and are generally ignored by us folkies), and it takes its name from the note it starts/ends on.

The mixolydian mode has the pattern whole, whole, half, whole, whole, half, whole. If you start it on G you only need to play the white keys (ie no F#, just like C major) and you have a G mixolydian scale. If you start it on D, you only need the F# to perserve the pattern and you have a D mixolydian scale. Again the D refers to the key tone and the scale name defines the pattern.

The dorian mode has the pattern whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half, whole. If you start it on D you only need to play the white keys and you have a D mixolydian scale. If you start it on E you have to play F# and C# to preserve the pattern, and you have an E dorian scale. Again the E refers to the key tone and the scale name defines the pattern.

Where the classicists muddy the waters is they keep referring back to the underlying major scale. Using just the white keys, the major scale/ionian mode starts on C - the first degree of the scale, the minor scale/ionian mode starts on A - the sixth degree of the scale, the mixolydian starts on G, the fifth note of the scale, and the ionian starts on D - the second degree. Thus the white note scale built on A is the minor/ionian of C, the one built on G is the mixolydian of C and the one on D is the dorian of C. Using that terminology a D mixolydian scale can also be referred to as the mixolydian OF G -- it shares a key signature with G major (one sharp) and starts on the fifth degree of the G major scale. The thing to look for is that sneaky word "of". Folk usage tends to ditch it and just refer to the scales by their keytone and pattern, ie D mixolydian.

I hope this helps and good luck with your explorations!

Subject: RE: Gguitar For Session Accompniment Q's???
From: KateG
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 07:25 PM

Briggfoot:

"from what i understand, Dmixylodian only has the F# anyway as it is the mixylodian of G, which only has the F#.
so howcome it looks like its missing a sharp??"

-- It only looks like it's missing a sharp in reference to a D major scale. D major has two sharps (F# & C#), D mixolydian has one (F#). So if you're looking at a piece of written music that has one sharp in the key signature but the keytone is D rather than G, then you know that it's a D mixolydian tune, since D major has two sharps. Same thing if it's written with the D major key signature but all the C's have natural signs in front of them. Hence my comment about missing a sharp.

Subject: RE: Guitar for Session Accompaniment Q's???
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 07:51 PM

All that KateG says is though more or less accurate, as Murray so deftly pointed out-completely unnecessary. The reason simply is that the folks who talk about all that modal stuff know nothing about music or modes, so when you delve into the matter, you will be completely confused by the disparity--

There are a number of threads, primarily "Modes for Mudcatters"(which, though not currently active, can be dredged up at any time) that beat this issue to death--if Murray's advice seems like it is not enough--simply memorize the melody and then pick it out in your DADGAD tuning--once you can play the tune, you won't care about the modal stuff--

And what key do you suppose you are in when three of the notes you are playing are D?

Subject: RE: Guitar for Session Accompaniment Q's???
From: Kaleea
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 01:22 AM

I agree that you probably don't need to know all that mode stuff. I studied all the early church modes & much of the early plainsong, etc. as part of my Music History & Music Theory in Music school while at college,---so yes, I can tell by looking at the music, &
listening to tunes what mode, what key, whether major or minor, etc. The average person does not, but so what? There are some really funky minor modes in Irish (Celtic) & such Music. Do not atempt to ascertain the key by looking at the key signature. Ya just gotta listen to the tune & play it. The guitar player may need to understand it a little, unless a good Musician has taught them the correct chords--then they can just play & have fun. Alot of the time, the tunes you can get off of some websites have a bunch of chords changing all the time, with chords that don't even sound close! Guitarists should listen carefully to the tunes & try to stick to I, IV, & V (yes, V & not V7) most of the time.
    Sometimes you may wonder why a certain #,b, or natural is not in the key sigature. There are some modes which are sorta pentatonic-like & may leave out one of the notes of that particular scale, like the do-re-mi---ect.
    For example, "Amazing Grace" is normally in the key of G major--one sharp, F#--according to the key signature (in almost all hymnals & also as played by most "traditional" bluegrass folks), but the melody does not use the F#. That is normal for some "Celtic" Music tunes. So what does that mean to us? Really, not that much to folks in a jam/session. They play tunes as they have learned them. If you listen, & get it, just play the tune & don't worry about all the rest of the Theory junk.
    I grew up playing in Ceoli bands, & went through the various tunings, including dadgad & lots more. The more I played, the more I used regular guitar tuning. Now I don't need no dadgum tunings.
There are many times when I need to play in various keys. For some of the funky modes I usually play regular I, IV,V7 chords or the minors, only sparingly using the 7ths as in the V7 chord. That way it won't clash against the melody of a funky mode tune. The longer I play, the more I find that I prefer that real traditional sound.
    Try listening to some good Traditional Musicians playing Traditional Music in the Traditional style & get the chords from them. But, to each-her or his own.
    Good Luck!

Subject: RE: Guitar for Session Accompaniment Q's???
From: KateG
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 11:20 AM

Kaleea and the others are right, you don't often have to worry yourself about modes. My excuse is that I play Mt. Dulcimer and it's fun to tune and play in the appropriate mode - the dulcimer sounds very different depending on how it's tuned. The dorian and aeolian tunings produce a very haunting resonance very unlike anything I get on my guitar or even the dulcimer in a more orthodox (ionian or mixolydian) tuning.

Actually, the guitar player for the sessions I take my flute to rarely plays chords other than D or G. Much of the time she plays a simple accompanyment of single bass notes in a moving line that follows the implied harmony of the piece. Very effective.

Subject: RE: Guitar for Session Accompaniment Q's???
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 12:39 PM

Modes are theoretical systems that composers have used as a framework for writing--and there are many different   modal systems, each with their own sets of rules(and, often, the rules are not followed anyway)--folk and traditional music, even when they use scales that have modal characteristics, tend not to follow any set of formal musical rules--

The reason that the "Modal" names are used at all is that ethnomusicologists found them convenient ways to categorize the different sorts of scales that they found in the "field"--their sources generally had no idea what they were talking about when they said "Mixolydian" or "Dorian"--and anyway, even in Western European and American folk music, there were way more different scales than they had names for--

Certain folk instruments are, by their nature, modal, such as the Appalachian dulcimer and all the different sorts of pipes, and they have a logic all their own--and of course, you can play the tunes "modally" or not--My favorite example of this is "The Green Hills of Tyrol/Scottish Soldier". Just listen to any pipe band recording, then listen to the old Andy Stewart popular recording--

Subject: RE: Guitar for Session Accompaniment Q's???
From: briggfoot-in-coventry
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 02:36 PM

blimy, cheers for the responces KateG and all!!!

looks like i dont have to learn all that stuff!! im sticking to standard tuning, it looks more............whats the word......arrgghh............versatile!!!

it was fun spending my summer hols trying to learn that stuff anyway! my music teacher will be impressed!!

thanks once again
andy

Subject: RE: Guitar for Session Accompaniment Q's???
From: KateG
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 02:40 PM

enjoy!

Subject: RE: Guitar for Session Accompaniment Q's???
From: Willie-O
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 05:35 PM

wow this thread is dense with information.

Because I am intellectually lazy, I have used Murray's method for many years...it works great with a couple of caveats.

...they're not all in Em...listen for the note the tune ends on and thats probably the chord.

...but assuming Em, learn a bunch of inversions of Em and D up the neck, and in approved Celtic style you use as many open strings as possible.

...and finally, use a quick transitional B7 between the D and the return to Em, it will get you free beer.

oh, and get handy with a capo, especially in dadgad.