What's a genuine folk enthusiast?

Subject: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 08:46 AM

Someone on the Cambridge thread said: "So don't expect to find many genuine folk music enthusiasts there."
So what is one and where would you find it? Would you want to, and does it matter?

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 09:02 AM

The 'folkie' or the image of the 'folkie' that many non-folk music people have, and that many of those that do like folk music, seem to think they must conform to, is the reason why so much fine music is unknown and so many fine musicians struggle.

If you can't find any genuine folk music enthusiasts that conform to this image - then let them stay lost and let everybody just get on with the music............

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 09:30 AM

I don't know but from what I've heard about Cambridge, there are people who go there to listen to folk music and those that go there more for the event. I'd would guess that the first category would be the "genuine folk enthusiasts".

I have 2 suggestions as to why it might matter.

1. I suppose if there is not much interest in the folk music it is possible that those going for the event may be more inclined to be noisy when an act is on.

2. Similarly, I suppose it could encourage the booking of main stream bands at the expense of folk music.

The above of course are just ideas that may not be realities.

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: ossonflags
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 10:38 AM

Stopped going to Cambridge festival a copla years ago cos of the lack of real folk enthusiasts and no fringe worth speaking of.
Plenty of pretentious arseholes around, that apart from the fact it is and always was, one of the "unfriendliest" festivals in the country.

Not a patch on the Northern festivals like Hull Shanty fest.

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: VIN
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 11:47 AM

A genuine folk enthusiast? Hmmm, maybe someone who genuinely believes that traditional (& contempory which may eventually become traditional) music/song/dance is worth preserving and is prepared to devote his/her time as much as possible in supporting (especially in their locality) those who try to pass on that tradition thru singing/dancing/playing in clubs, pubs, festivals etc ; is perpared to keep an open mind, be tolerant to those who are'nt brill singers/players but who are doing their bit & best; perhaps paying that bit extra to see/hear those who try to earn their living this way; in essence someone who puts the music/dance first before image, labels or stereotypes.

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 11:51 AM

What's an artificial folk enthusiast?
It would be handy if people would stop using the F-word to describe everything from the Copper Family to the latest singer/songwriter, if only so that one could decide which events to attend in advance.

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 12:07 PM

Well, Dick, your second category of performer has been described as an ARSS (Acoustic Rock Singer Songwriter) by fRoots magazine who had the right idea in dropping the F-word some years ago. As for the Coppers, I've heard them do just about everything not actually sung by horses.

An artificial folk enthusiast? Well some agents and promoters for a start...

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 12:33 PM

VIN The question was a genuine folk music enthusiast.

I fear that what you describe is not the same thing. The only reason to play, sing or dance is because it makes you and/or someone else feel good. I fear that it is the thought that you are preserving something worthy, a process akin to pickling, that does create the image that I refer to.

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 12:44 PM

if a word is worth using, it is worth having a definition that is clear & narrow enough to actually mean something. You wouldn't go to a restaurant which advertises 'food'- you want to know what they serve.

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: VIN
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 09:09 AM

Hi Shambles. Sorry but err (at the risk of sounding pedantic) i thougtht the Countess asked 'what's a genuine folk enthusiast' which i did take to mean folk music and dance (sorry if i assume wrong countess).

Agree with your second sentence i.e. 'The only reason to play, sing or dance is because it makes you and/or someone else feel good'.

Not sure of your gist in the last sentence tho. If in 'preserving' you mean keeping behind glass or in a safe to be untouched, altered, adapted or passed on etc then i would agree that it denies acces to a lot of people and is therefo not benficial.

I'm trying to say that a 'folk (music) enthusiast' puts the 'music' and its enjoyment by as many people as possible first and foremost. That's why people like Kate Rusby, Fairport, Elisa Carthy, Duncan McFarlane etc are so important cos they try to reach a wider audience
with 'so much fine music' as you refer to.

Or am i still missing something. Doh!

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 09:42 AM

Are we talking about people who are enthusiastic about genuine folk. or people who are genuinely enthusiatic about folk? These are quite different categories.
    In either category, I would nominate the people who came from London to see me play in Tobermory. Though, come to think of it, maybe they werent. Maybe they just wanted to go to Tobermory.

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: VIN
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 10:47 AM

Enthusiastic about genuine folk.
Genuinely enthusiastic about folk.
My aging brain is hurting
Countess.......help!!

P.s. Tobermory? Where's that? Sounds kindof nice, bet there's a song about it or should be

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 11:07 AM

Tobermory is on the Isle of Mull. You hardly need an excuse to go there but if Greg Stephens is playing, that's even more reason to go. Great sessions too. Does that help??!!

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 11:12 AM

Someone on the Cambridge thread said: "So don't expect to find many genuine folk music enthusiasts there."
So what is one and where would you find it? Would you want to, and does it matter?

Back to semantics again, I'm afraid. The words folk (and traditional) when used before the word music, tend to cause problems. I especially find the word traditional, in the sense that many understand it, to be almost incompatatible with what I understand as music.

In the sense that traditional to me, simply means continuing a process. To some this means going back and digging something up from the past or preserving something, as it is now. Either way, when used to prefix the word music, I struggle.

Music can be written down and now a performance can be recorded in many ways but to me, it is only created, in the air at that one moment in time. Even when the attempt is made to exactly repeat a piece of music, it may be very close but is never exactly the same twice. Music moves on even when steps are taken to keep it exactly as one wishes.

That is why I refer to the image. For it is this image of what 'a genuine folk music enthusiast' may look like that is referred to in the quote. As if one could recognise a classical or jazz music enthusisast, the point is how would you know if there were any genuine folk music enthusiasts present or not?

In the UK anyway, you could count those with tankards or those with dyed red hair, face furniture or dreadlocks, this is hardly much of a test as to how genuine or enthusiastic these folk may be about folk music, is it?

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 03:04 PM

I thought Tobermory was a Womble.

[a womble is a big hairy thing, that lives underground and collects rubbish].

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 03:28 PM

Yep John, that as well. I think he was the one that used to make things. As for the place on the Isle of Mull that I would assume your Womble was named after, I wouldn't mind a visit to the island one day. I'd like to visit Iona too...

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 06:10 PM

Well I'm heading for the west coast tomorrow. Playing a gig in Ardfern Saturday night, you can see more islands from there than you'ld believe(if you walk up the lane from the pub to the top to look over the ridge).

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 07:13 PM

Some hopes....No guitarist ever made it out of Tighnabruiach sober.

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 07:22 PM

hoew do you pronounce thatt?

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 07:31 PM

Ty...Na...broo...ichhhh.    Ya wee sassenach rascal ye....Noo whars ma claymore

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 07:38 PM

oh.

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Aug 04 - 06:11 AM

What's a genuine folk music enthusiast?

Could well be described as a big hairy thing, that lives underground and collects rubbish].

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: JulieF
Date: 06 Aug 04 - 07:13 AM

The Wombles got their names by sticking a pin in Great Uncle Bulgaria' atlas ( or was it a globe ?). Hence Tomsk, Wellington, Tobermory etc

Julie

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: VIN
Date: 06 Aug 04 - 08:34 AM

Shambles. How about this......
I think the definition of words like 'traditional' depends on the context in which they are used.
Yeeeees.....well so what......
Well, if the word 'traditional' is used adjectively then it will describe something that is age-old or long-established or conventional or historic (according to English Thesaurus) e.g its 'traditional' or long established convention to wear certain attire when Morris dancing (or molly dancing) i.e traditional clothing for the event. It's traditional to have bonfires on November 5th.

Folk applied adjectively would mean traditional to the community or passed down in a community or coming from the traditional (old) beliefs or ideas, words and songs of ordinary people

I can see, i think, the difficulty in defining music cos music is just that - music, with all its variations and styles (like bird-song), kind of ageless. So, as i see it, traditional songs or tunes (music) are age-old, passed down thru the years with maybe variations here and there (like in classical music, you might get variation on a theme of Paganini or Thomas Tallis i.e the core theme or tune is still there).   It's traditional cos its old but still played/sung.

Contemporary music (or songs/tunes) means they are current or recent or new. I suppose it's debatable as to how far back you go before the song/tune is no longer contemporary.

Songs by Tom Paxton, Ian Campbell, Bob Dylan, Lennon/McCartney, Ewan McColl &c may eventually become (or are now) a part of our music tradition, despite modern copyright laws and other restraints.

Soooooo, (yawn!) as to 'how would you know if there were any genuine folk music enthusiasts present or not?' I reckon you wouldn't unless you knew them.   A folk music enthusiast is one who regularly listens to and/or performs this particular musical genre maybe as a living or hobby.

Now why didn't I say that in the first place instead of waffling on?

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton
Date: 06 Aug 04 - 09:24 AM

First, remove all the counterfeit folk enthusiasts and then the genuine ones can be recognised.

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Aug 04 - 10:40 AM

Vin that was at good stab at it

The quote suggests that because of the artists on the bill, the writer advises that they would not expect many genuine folk music enthusiasts to be attracted. How you would be able to tell how many have beens atracted is unsure but it suggests that a geniune folk music enthusiast would not be attracted to any other form of music and possibly that this would define a GFME.

I was always advised that this was what was referred to as a musical snob.......

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Aug 04 - 11:01 AM

Right, that's game set and match to Mr Shambles. Now, to get back to music (of whatever genre) so long as it's good and well-performed...

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: VIN
Date: 06 Aug 04 - 11:27 AM

Sounds ok to to me - play/sing/dance on folks!

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Aug 04 - 03:50 PM

a genuine folk entusiast is an enthusiast who enthuses about folk.

The kind of person who asks "What's a genuine folk enthusiast?"

Cambridge Festival like Glastonbury and Cropedy and Sidmouth are entertainment with very big budgets. Glastonbury has even dropped any pretense along with the word Folk. If the play and support folk music then it represents their legacy customers not the direction they are heading in.

At least Cropedy has an ulteria motive - to provide the village with a post office and two pubs - they make enough on festival w/e to stay open all year. I think that is a good example of folk - discuss.

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: GUEST,nickr90
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 09:01 AM

Any person who likes music that he or she considers folk. You need not know the 99th verse or the definitive chord sequence - thats the folk obsessive.

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: Piff
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 04:13 PM

I am reminded of the definition offered by one of my heroes, the forgotten genius Tom Lehrer: the sign of a true folk afficionado is someone who thinks that singing 50 verses of "On top of Old Smokie" is twice as much fun as singing 25. :-)

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: shepherdlass
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 05:18 PM

Someone who lets the tradition develop without artificially holding it back in an idealized golden age???? After all, the pop tunes of the day have always got in there (in some degree or other) and the good ones kept being played till they went down through the generations. Those who may have been seen as "pretentious prats" at Cambridge may well have been so - time will tell (but a lot of similar brickbats were handed out to post-electric Dylan). That said, we've probably all walked away from our fair share of stuff at festivals wondering why the hell that person was booked.

It's not just "folkies" who worry about the purity of their music. Just read the letters pages of the national press after the Classical Brits have hacked away any pretence that classical music is aloof from the cash nexus.

Are we back to the infamous Louis Armstrong (mis)quote - "it's all folk music, ain't never heard no horse playing it"? I've probably got the words and the originator wrong - isn't that the point? Everyone adds their own little bit to the tradition - the good bits stick. The "genuine enthusiasts" may well be too busy enthusing, and enjoying themselves to get tied up with semantics, and maybe we should all ENJOY it as much as possible (and just ignore what doesn't engage us).

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 05:41 PM

THat's IT!!! God bless you, Piff. God bless Tom Lehrer. I QUALIFY. I am a GFME, since birth. O, frabjous day -- calloo, callay. I fit somewhere. A category that club that includes me. Thank you, Piff. I kiss your feet.

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 06:51 PM

I believe that a genuine folk enthusiast is some one who would have better sense that to post to this thread.

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 06:37 AM

you've got to be some kind of enthusiast - to go without a civilised shit for three days

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 07:04 AM

"You wouldn't go to a restaurant which advertises 'food'"

Yes, I would, and I do. I might not eat there, if I didn't like the look of the menu or the place, but that's another matter.

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: John Robinson (aka Cittern)
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 09:00 AM

Folk = the music of the average person on the street = music with a social context = often involving some form of protest = PUNK !!!

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 19 Aug 04 - 04:07 PM

P.S. Piff, how does someone -- ANYone -- forget Tom Lehrer???? Tw

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: clansfolk
Date: 19 Aug 04 - 04:32 PM

For anyone coming to Fylde this year, they may notice a new spotlight installed at the Steamer, this being a black light (U.V.?) similar to those used for detecting forged bank notes

I presumed it was just for effect but now I suspect it is for spotting Imitation folk singers, or maybe duff notes.

they're sohard to spot now, ever since they stopped sticking their fingers in their ears.

Pete

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: Merina
Date: 19 Aug 04 - 05:31 PM



A genuine folk music enthusiast enjoys the music, allows it freedom to evolve, finds it where they can and turns other people on to it. And probably is enthusiastic about other sorts of music too, realising that all things have their place.

Where to find? Just about anywhere, but more likely out in a place where it is being played than stuck in front of a computer, frankly. Mea culpa.

Would I want to? Wouldn't mind - makes for social pleasure.

Does it matter? Hell no. It's only music - life's too short.

Subject: RE: What's a genuine folk enthusiast?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Aug 04 - 06:06 PM

It's taken over two weeks but I reckon Merina gets the prize for the right answer at last.

I should add that I'm just in (early) from a music event. Haven't been at the Mac face all night. Honest!