Deciding track order

Subject: Deciding track order
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 10:43 AM

What factors do you use when determining track order on a CD? I've listened to some CD's where it seems they threw them on at random - and others seem to have a nice neat progression either in mood or content.

Subject: RE: Deciding track order
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 02:21 PM

With the advent of CDs, is not the running order less important than it possibly once was?

The only time I may play all the tracks in order, is the first time I play it and even then I may not stick rigidly to this. The days when you used to play records so often that when one track was finished - the next one automatically came into your head, are long gone.

Sometimes I find that I have been so brainwashed by this that hearing a familiar song (like The Beatles or Bob Dylan) on the radio - I get really 'ratty' when the track I expect next, is not played.....Perhaps it is a good idea that CDs have changed all this?

Perhaps I am alone in this but if folk are playing the tracks in the order they choose to (or at random) it is maybe just good to place the tracks on at random?

Subject: RE: Deciding track order
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 02:25 PM

I was thinking that while I posted the original question -- though I detest the random function available on most CD players. So I guess that would be the other half of the question - or doesn't it matter?

Subject: RE: Deciding track order
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 02:43 PM

Shambles -- I thought that was just me! To this day whenever I hear Bowie's Drive in Saturday I expect Althea and Donna with Uptown Topranking!

I've never been able to fathom the whys and wherefors of most albums. I notice when they are particulary bad or particularly good. When I burn CDs for myself I usually put hot stuff and cool stuff together respectively. So all the tub-thumping is on one CD and all the deep meaningful stuff on another. I used to do that format on opposite sides of the same tape, but those days are gone.

Subject: RE: Deciding track order
From: treewind
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 02:43 PM

Shouldn't be random at all. We put a lot of thought into the track order of our last CD, and I have several early rough mixes that are in a different order and sound quite strange now.

The steps are:
- Choose a good opening and finishing track
- fill in the gaps between with as much variety as possible.
- Mix slow and fast, long and short, vocal and instrumental, serious and frivolous...
- consider carefully position of weakest and strongest tracks
- Liten and reshuffle. Repeat till satisfied.
- sometimes the key changes between tracks make a difference.
- eventually you settle on something you don't want to change any more.

"Shuffle" features are irrelevant. Most people don't listen that way, and there's nothing to be done for them, so you might as well decide the best sequence you can for the benefit of those who will listen to all of it.

Another thing to consider is how long the whole thing should be. Standard CDs have 74 minutes capacity but that's usually too long for most people to want to listen to all of it in one go. 50-60 minutes is enough!

Anahata

Subject: RE: Deciding track order
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 07:24 PM

Something catchy first...it's the only one the festival organisers will listen to. The meat in the middle. I prefer to finish mine with something of the sailing-off-into-the-sunlight type, some prefer upbeat. I dont think it matters that much by the end, maybe, It's the first 2/3 that count.
    If a track is difficult to fit in anywhere, chuck it out. Either it's crap, or it might go well in your next CD. Either way, it won't do in this one. CDs definitely dont need padding. They can be as long as you like. Certain people moan at anything short of 74min...they think they are being ripped off: ignore them.Length is not everything.

Subject: RE: Deciding track order
From: GUEST,obm
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 08:23 PM

In the old days (LP records) we used to have 2 opening and 2 closing tracks - now at least we have only one. However, we spend ages sorting out running orders etc but must be aware that loads of folks will hit the RANDOM button that renders the entire process utterly pointless.

Having said that, I still try to make sure the rnning order makes sense, but it's much less important now than it used to be.

Subject: RE: Deciding track order
From: Bert
Date: 05 Aug 04 - 11:19 PM

Quand trois Poule vont au champ
la premiere va devant
la seconde suis la premiere
la troisieme va la derniere
Quand trois Poule vont au champ
la premiere va devant

Subject: RE: Deciding track order
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Aug 04 - 06:29 AM

I think the random play button novelty has probably worn off and this function is less used that the 'skip' button. There must be many tracks that never get except heard after a small sample on first play. Which is rather a shame after all the work and planning that goes into the making of a CD.

It was always possible with records to lift the arm and place it on the next or preferred track but this meant actually moving to the record player (for we now can do this by use of a remote). I do rather wish that the CD was around in the days when my friends used to listen to John Mayall's 'Beano' album, usually in no condition to move at all!

There was a long and tiresome drum solo on 'Tell Me What I Say'. Because of our inability to stir up enough energy to approach the record player - we would suffer every last drum beat of this, until the blessed relief of the next track starting.......When I recently purchased the CD - it was such a joy to be able to just press the 'skip' button.

Subject: RE: Deciding track order
From: pavane
Date: 06 Aug 04 - 06:34 AM

I seem to remember that on one of Nic Jones's LPs, he ran each song nto the next, so there was effectively only one track, with all the songs in it.
Wonder how that works on CD

Subject: RE: Deciding track order
From: alanabit
Date: 06 Aug 04 - 06:53 AM

I agree with everything that Greg and Treewind say. I like a CD to feel like a complete, finished piece of work, so the running order is very important. I made a point of not putting funny songs at either the beginning or end of mine. I felt that if people were expecting a comedy album, they would just turn off as soon as something serious came along. Making a CD is a bit like creating your own little world. You have to lead the listener through it to some extent. Your running order is vital in making them want to keep on going to see what comes next.

Subject: RE: Deciding track order
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Aug 04 - 07:01 AM

As much care should be placed into the running order of a CD as you would to the planning of a live performance.

I am just pointing out that 'the best laid plans etc'. At least if someone wishes to skip a CD track, you will not know this. Unlike a gig where you may see them walk to the loo or talk all the way through what you consider to be the highpoint of your act....

Subject: RE: Deciding track order
From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton
Date: 06 Aug 04 - 07:04 AM

We use the well established industry method of alphabetical order. It hasn`t failed yet.

Subject: RE: Deciding track order
From: treewind
Date: 06 Aug 04 - 07:12 AM

Greg -
"Something catchy first...it's the only one the festival organisers will listen to"
That's true but for the same reason it's a bad idea (as discussed in an online forum somewehere recently, maybe here) to use a full length album as a demo anyway.

Because we have such a variety of settings (different instruments, songs in Welsh etc) and because organisers have an attention span of about 20 seconds, our demo is nine tracks of very short excerpts.

Spot on about leaving things out if they don't fit. We left out a terrific pair of tunes because it's pure ceilidh band and just didn't fit, and a couple of others that either weren't appropriate or there simply wasn't room for.

Pavane - it's perfectly possible to make a CD with track numbers that change in the right place with any discontinuity in the recorded sound. The CD of Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon" does this, though it misses some track changes so the numbers don't match the booklet - oops! I made a CD of the Song Links concerts (for private consumption by the participants) that had tracks without gaps too.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Deciding track order
From: Cool Beans
Date: 06 Aug 04 - 01:45 PM

I like things to have a beginning, a middle and an end. For my CD I recorded things I like, of course, and when I was done I recognized some themes and spent a lot of time on ordering the tracks. I began with a lively flatpicked number, "Under the Double Eagle," followed by a fingerpicked-and=sung number, "Candy Man" and a humorous song, "The Vegetable Song," aka "The Barnyard Dance."
    Having introduced myself and what I do, I noticed I'd done a few songs related to places or travel, so they came next: "Sailors Hornpipe," "40th and Plum," "Home on the Range (in Yiddish)," "I'm Goin' Back To Where I Come From," "Guabi Guabi" (from Africa), "Repo Depot" (an original kiss-off song about buying a cheap car and splitting), and "Mauna Loa" from Hawaii.
    Next came songs by, for or about children: "Chopsticks (yes, on the guitar)" whose composer was 16; "Freight Train" (Elizabeth Cotten wrote it age 10 or 11) "Jimmy Brown the Newsboy," "Castle on a Cloud," "Jingle Bells" and "Prairie Lullabye" which also serves as valedictory. I went back in the studio and added a second valedictory, "There Will Be a Happy Meeting," because my wife wanted me to.
   That's my CD: 17 songs, 45 minutes. Folks can play 'em in any order as long as the check clears.

Subject: RE: Deciding track order
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Aug 04 - 03:10 PM

Greg -
"Something catchy first...it's the only one the festival organisers will listen to"

Treewind -
That's true but for the same reason it's a bad idea (as discussed in an online forum somewehere recently, maybe here) to use a full length album as a demo anyway.

As an intentional demo probably. But everything you record is possibly going to be heard and maybe by someone who may be interested in booking you etc. They may only ever get to hear your CD, and not your demo, so it would be a good idea to give the first track a lot of thought. A folk club organiser for example may have heard your name and seeing it on a CD may play it out of interest.......

Subject: RE: Deciding track order
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Aug 04 - 03:14 PM

Same way you'd put together a set list.