The Dangerous Doo Dah Band

Subject: The Dangerous Doo Dah Band
From: ET
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 08:28 AM

Sunday Times Today - Prosecution of Licensee of Crown, Lynton Devon - under article - Safety Police take over. This band of 4 being enjoyed by every one except it seems a council official wo thought that the 2 extra above the 2 in a bar limit, playing a washboard and a tea chest, became a danger to health and safety as there was no PEL.   Oddly magistrates rejected the claim that the extra 2 adversly affected health and safety!   The article also included references to Local Authorities banning backstroke swiming, danger of collisions, hanging baskets, my drop on heads, and riding donkeys, without safety helmets.

It augers well for local authorities taking over licensing of pubs and music!

Subject: RE: The Dangerous Doo Dah Band
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 09:09 AM

What is dangerous Doo Dah?

Eric the outcome of the prosecution was what - exactly?

Subject: RE: The Dangerous Doo Dah Band
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 09:29 AM

(almost) unbelievable. Washboards & tea chest bass, what did they thing could happen with such instruments - did they expect someone's face to be rubbed on the washboard, or a body to be stuffed into the chest? Maybe it was the thimbles (my Great-grandmother imposed disipline on her children by a whack on the head with her silver thimble). Maybe musos will have to head for the great outdoors like the Dissenters in the 17th & 18th centuries. Where's Captain Swing when you need him?

We have crazy regulations here, & I was recently reading about NY where some absolutely looney regulations are in force (ya can't sit on a milk crate! ya can't take up 2 seats on the subway ...)

I'm on the committee of the Neighbourhood Centre where my folk club meets & they are going thru some madness there. The back garden was demolished one day recently without teling the Administrator - children might hurt themselves!! The demolishers planned to plant hedges, which the Admin rejected ages ago cos no-goodniks could hide in or behind hedges. Oh, we never thought of that, they said. And the garden had been planted with children in mind, & finally it was not theirs to demolish. The centre is a responsibility of the local council, but is administered separately.

Then they said we will build you a children's toilet block, cos you have to have one as the centre is used for Occasional Childcare in school holidays (doesn't matter that the Playgroups use the adult toilets every day & that the kids use full-size toilets at home). As some new child protection regulations say that 2 adults must take a child to the toilet, I wondered how they will all fit in the new childsize toilets. Maybe the door will be left open & the child will have even less privacy.

What a waste of ratepayers money.

sandra

Subject: RE: The Dangerous Doo Dah Band
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 09:35 AM

www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,2-523-1206966,00.html

Should take you to the story in full.

Subject: RE: The Dangerous Doo Dah Band
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 09:41 AM

Or maybe not!

Try this one and put Dangerous Doo Dah in the search box: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-501221,00.html

Subject: RE: The Dangerous Doo Dah Band
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 10:21 AM

The article concluded:

Bowes, The hotelier from Lynton, is unimpressed by the zealousness of many heath and safety experts. "It beggars belief that they launched a sting operation in my case. I can't believe that two men (joining the band) playing a washboard and a tea-box bass contravenes health and safety laws," he said.

However, North Devon council said it had acted under the guidance of health and safety regulations. Andrew Millie, assistant environmental health manager said: "Someone who is making profit by inviting people into their premises has legal obligations with regard to the safety of those people."

The HSE said last week it supported authorities in their decisions: "There is a partnership agreement between the HSE and local authorities which, in line with its overall strategy, is built around improving current standards of health and safety."

Subject: RE: The Dangerous Doo Dah Band
From: ET
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 01:51 PM

What a disgrace. Have e-mailed DCMS again! Bound to be a waste of time. See Hilary Blairs has recently said that labour will be in power for 100 years. At one time I might have said horrah but unless they amend this bit of the Licensing Act!!

Subject: RE: The Dangerous Doo Dah Band
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 03:03 PM

The implication is that the prosecution was not successful or was it successful and the magistrates just considered it not to be unsafe?

If they did not consider it to be unsafe - how can the prosecution be successful, as the argument is that the activity is unsafe without the additional PEL?

If it was unsuccessful, presumbly the council will still consider their case to be a good one - what do they do now?

Subject: RE: The Dangerous Doo Dah Band
From: ET
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 04:33 PM

The Council may have prosecuted for lack of a PEL or under health and safety legislation. If Magistrates erred in law, the prosecutor could ask them to state a case for the opinion of the High Court, (the sledgehammer getting larger and larger) but I wonder if even they consider it is worth the risks of the costs involved. It is not clear from the Times article how the prosecution was brought or how the Magistrates came to dismiss the prosecution, if that they did.

I notice on DCMS web site there is a longer list of questions and answers on the provision of regulated entertainment under the act, www.culture.gov.uk - click on alcohol and licensing then reguated entertainment. Here is an explanation of why the 2 in a bar ule is being abolished. There are 9 pages of questions and answers. I notice that busking is not mentioned!

Subject: RE: The Dangerous Doo Dah Band
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 07:06 PM

It would be nice to know the details.

The involvement of the HSE reminds me of the PEL hearing I attended. All parties had agreed but the environmental health officer insisted on a ban on all outside entertainment. The issue was one of noise but he could not accept that his wording prevented non-amplified music. The objectors had withdrawn their objections as they did not wish to prevent non-amplified events but he remained firm....

Fortunately the panel decided that they could make a distinction between amplified and non-amplified music and the latter was able to continue outside - as a condition of the PEL. If they had not ignored this 'twit', outside Morris Dancing would have been prevented, even though the pub was applying for the PEL. In fact, had I not been present and pointed it out, his wording would have been accepted. This remains just about my only achievement, in 4 years.......

Subject: RE: The Dangerous Doo Dah Band
From: ET
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 03:44 AM

I will try to find out more on this.

One problem for all this I think is the issue of discretion. Crown Prosecutors only prosecute if in the public interest. I suspect local authority lawyers prosecute to add a notch to their CV.

Subject: RE: The Dangerous Doo Dah Band
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 03:50 AM

Will someone please make the full text of this article available? I cannot log in to the Times site because I will not enable automatic acceptance of cookies. THe furthest I am preapared to go is to have manual control of cookies and then accept those I am prepared to accept: Times site rejects this.

Since Murdoch is possibly one of the greatest dangers to democracy and freedom of expression in the world (maybe after Shrub and little Willie Gates), I should trust him with uncontrolled cookies?

Subject: RE: The Dangerous Doo Dah Band
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 04:11 AM

I wonder if the H&S people are aware that many pubs take an advantage of a loophole in the Dangerous Drugs Act and openly sell drinks containing a large enough propotion of a substance of well-established toxicity that just a few drinks can result in sever intoxication? Alcohol, to give it its scientific name, is widely used by the medical profession as a disinfectant and preservative, yet anyone can simply walk in and consume as much as they like! People experiencing alcohol intoxication have frequently reported suffering from a loss of critical faculties, resulting in excessive friendliness towards total strangers, or uncontrollable euphoria which -- and this is the worst part -- frequently results in singing and/or dancing.

Somthing must be done!

Steve "One-sniff-of-the-barmaid's-apron..." Parkes

Subject: RE: The Dangerous Doo Dah Band
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 06:51 AM

The Sunday Times 08th August 2004 By Will Iredale
Don't do that: the safety police take over.

When the Doo-Dah band struck up its skiffle music in a hotel courtyard on a summer evening, it proved a hit with nearly everyone in the audience.

Except for the council officer attending the show. A stickler for health and safety regulations, he concludes the hotel had broken the law by using four musicians instead of two.

As a result, Peter Bowes, licensee of the Crown hotel in Lynton, north Devon, was prosecuted for an alleged breach of regulations requiring him to have a separate licence and to install a raft of safety measures, including access routes for emergency vehicles, when hosting more than two musicians.

Magistrates rejected the claim that there might be an adverse effect on health and safety. But the case is unlikely to be a deterrent to Britain's army of inspectors and environmental health officers, whose job it is to apply the ever-growing number of rules and guidelines from the Health and Safety Executive (HSE).

[skip]

Bowes, The hotelier from Lynton, is unimpressed by the zealousness of many heath and safety experts. "It beggars belief that they launched a sting operation in my case. I can't believe that two men (joining the band) playing a washboard and a tea-box bass contravenes health and safety laws," he said.

However, North Devon council said it had acted under the guidance of health and safety regulations. Andrew Millie, assistant environmental health manager said: "Someone who is making profit by inviting people into their premises has legal obligations with regard to the safety of those people."

The HSE said last week it supported authorities in their decisions: "There is a partnership agreement between the HSE and local authorities which, in line with its overall strategy, is built around improving current standards of health and safety."

Subject: RE: The Dangerous Doo Dah Band
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 09:30 AM

Does that mean I don't need to register my washboard & thimbles as deadly weapons any more?

RtS

Subject: RE: The Dangerous Doo Dah Band
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 11:39 AM

Unless you're flying, Roger they may constitute a WMD (Washing Machine of Destruction).

Subject: RE: The Dangerous Doo Dah Band
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 03:49 PM

Western Morning News
PUB IN COURT FOR LETTING CUSTOMERS JOIN IN WITH BAND

18:00 - 29 July 2004
An attempt to prosecute a Lynton hotel over alleged breaches of licensing regulations has been thrown out by North Devon magistrates. Licensee of Lynton's Crown Hotel, Peter Bowes, appeared before North Devon Magistrates' Court after it was alleged by North Devon District Council that the Doo-Dah Band concert featured performances from more than two people - a breach of licensing arrangements at the establishment.

Two members of the band were performing to a crowd of about 50 last August and, at some stage during the evening, two members of the audience were alleged to have joined in the musical entertainment by playing a washboard and a box.

But the case was dismissed by the bench on the grounds that the performance took place outside, rather than inside, the hotel.

Chris Jones, defending, said that, because the concert took place in the open air, it was exempt from licensing legislation set out in the Local Government Act 1982.

And the bench told the court: "No evidence from the prosecution has been heard to show any entertainment took place inside the premises.

"We will deem it an open air event. We find no case to answer and the case is dismissed."

Prosecution witness David Bennett, principle environmental health officer at the council, had told the court: "I was asked to phone Mr Bowes because there was some concern he was organising entertainment without a proper license.

"He said he would arrange it with only two members of the band playing. I thought it was a flippant answer and wasn't convinced the entertainment would go ahead with two people."

Christopher Hagan, an environmental health officer at the time, was asked to attend the concert.

He said a banjo player and guitarist were soon joined by two other people, and added: "One was playing a wooden box with a piece of string and the other was playing a washboard. It seemed quite natural. They played the songs quite well and seemed to know them."

But under questioning from Mr Jones, Mr Hagan added that the concert took place in the hotel's courtyard, where there was also a barbecue.

Ken Miles, prosecuting, said: "This entertainment took place within the grounds of a public house.

"It was in the courtyard - not the middle of a field or a wood. It may not have a roof over it, but is part of the licensed premises."

The magistrates, however, ruled in favour of Mr Bowes and dismissed the case.

Case is defended

LICENSING chiefs at North Devon District Council have defended the decision to take Lynton's Crown Hotel to court over a Doo-Dah Band concert.

The hotel held an evening of entertainment with a duo from the band on August 9 last year to raise money for the voluntary Exmoor Search and Rescue organisation.

But licensee Peter Bowes incurred the wrath of the local authority when it was alleged two members of the audience joined in with a wooden box and washboard.

The council argued this breached the hotel's licensing arrangements, which allowed a maximum two performers.

Before the case at North Devon Magistrates' Court, Mr Bowessaid: "I feel I am the victim of the popularity of the Doo-Dah Band. I would never knowingly have contravened regulations intended to ensure safety of the public."

The case was then sensationally dismissed by magistrates, and now Mr Bowes is entitled to claim his pre-Legal Aid costs.

Expenses must be paid to two defence witnesses who were not even required to speak in court following the dismissal.

The council's senior environmental health officer, Andrew Millie said : "A public entertainment licence is there to protect the public on a number of health and safety issues. We always seek to protect the interests of the public whenever we feel it is necessary."

Subject: RE: The Dangerous Doo Dah Band
From: GUEST,Felix
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:56 PM

The world is truly going mad..if this wasn't all so sad and demoralising it would be funny. Can I have the 'good old days' back please...?

Subject: RE: The Dangerous Doo Dah Band
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:15 PM

Evil times indeed. Maybe the washboard and the box with string did not conform to EU regulations on improvised instruments. Not safety tested as a potential hazard to the public and no safety warning on the said instruments, viz

'the use of this instrument could cause your nails to be damaged' or

'Caution: Only to be operated by qualified musicians'

Still give a man a hat and a job......

Subject: RE: The Dangerous Doo Dah Band
From: GUEST,Seaking
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:33 PM

....and a risk assessment

Subject: RE: The Dangerous Doo Dah Band
From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 11:22 AM

OPEN LETTER TO ANDREW MILLIE, SENIOR ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH OFFICER FOR NORTH DEVON DISTRICT COUNCIL.

Dear Sir,
          Would you please explain to me how the presence of some musicians playing at a barbecue in the courtyard of a licenced premises, open to the elements, presents a health and safety risk to those attending when, should the musicians not be there, then the existing Health and Safety measures in the place are considered satisfactory? I doubt you could offer a reasonable response.
If it is just another method of raising revenue then please have the decency to say so!

John H.Hills
johnh.hills@virgin .net

Subject: RE: The Dangerous Doo Dah Band
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 02:12 AM

I suspect that any answer to this, were any to be forthcoming, may be on the lines of this one, I received from my Council's legal officer on 24 August 2004, after nearly 4 years of trying to obtain a policy decision from the members. What it means is that, the honest answer is too difficult or would place them in severe difficulties.

I am responding to your e-mail dated 18 August received during my absence on leave.

The Council's priority is the successful implementation of the new licensing regime. In order to achieve this it is necessary to focus resources on what is a substantial undertaking for this small local authority. Unfortunately this means that we do not have the resources to respond further to the points you raise.

As set out in my e-mail to you of 22 July we would value your contribution to the formulation of the Council's Local Licensing Policy and Model Conditions which are currently out to public consultation.

Legal & Housing Services Manager

Weymouth & Portland Borough Council

This reminds me so much of the bully confronted. The resources were there (and still are under the current legislation) for these same officers, when there were no complaints, to make many (out of hours) visits and to threaten my local licensee with £20,000 fines or prison, just because the number of members of the public wishing to play in the session, exceeded two.

Now the story is that we are just a small little borough (and had a difficult childhood) etc...

The personal sounding invite is a nice touch too. It is saying that there is no hard feelings and they are not going to exclude me from the new Licensing Policy consultation - which is open to all the public anyway.

Do I sound bitter?