Tech: Need info ASAP, please! (hard drive)

Subject: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 09:18 AM

OK, here's the deal. The laptop I'm using has a faulty hard drive, and I'm thinking it's a good idea to just stay connected as long as I can, because there's always the chance that the next time I try to boot up, I won't be able to. (This is a friend's machine who doesn't want to buy a new hard drive until she gets back from holiday, so is leaving it all up to me to figure out what to do until she gets back in three weeks.)

So my question is, is it alright to just leave it on? She has a screensaver that automatically goes on after a certain amount of time. Can I just leave it on like this for the entire day (or longer?) What's the longest it should stay on without my damaging the computer?

Sorry if this is the most BASIC kinds of questions, but I'm still learning as I'm going, and these things crop up.

THANK YOU in advance!

..xx..e

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 09:41 AM

Normally desktops can be left on indefinitely. I can't say about this particular labtop. One thing you should do if you have not already is make backup copies of all files you do not want to lose. This can be done on CD-Rs or floppy discs.

One drawback to keeping the computer on all the time is that eventually, as the memory begins to fill, the operation becomes slower. While this is not as bad with Windows XP as other operating systems it is still something to consider.   If there is a weakness in the hard drive it might last longer if the computer is left running than if it is turned off and on.

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: EBarnacle
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 09:44 AM

The key is backup. If the hard drive is actually defective, it will be an expensive and time consuming job to rescue the data when the ultimate crash occurs. It can be saved now. Do it before it's too late.

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 09:51 AM

Thanks the both of you. I already backed up all the files on CDs for her.

Now it's just a question of whether I can leave the laptop on for my own use while I'm staying at her flat.

My friend is bringing down my laptop from home, just in case this one commits total suicide, but since it might be a pain to figure out how to get onto her ISP via my laptop, I'm still thinking (and she prefers) that I continue to use hers.

So, to stay on or not to stay on? (It does have Windows XP, if that does make a difference.) I don't really understand how memory continues to fill up if I stay on. What kind of memory?

..xx..e

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 09:51 AM

Laptops run hotter than PCs, and I wouldn't recommend leaving it on all the time. Take it to a PC World type shop, switched on, and ask them what they think. It will cost money whatever way you go about it, but a dead computer is worth nothing in cash terms, so it's an investment that you need to protect.
Sorry EP, but that the way the cookie crumbles.
Giok

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 09:57 AM

So how long is too long? Can I leave it on all day and turn it off at night?

..xx..e

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: JudyB
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 10:14 AM

Does it eventually go into a sleep mode when the screen goes blank? If so, it should be OK to leave on, and waking from sleep is probably easier on it than starting up from scratch.

If you decide to leave it on and it doesn't go to sleep, I'd do everything possible to provide as much air circulation as possible to reduce overheating - make sure there's lots of room around any air vents, keep it out of sunlight and in the coolest room, etc.

If there's a way you can do it, I agree with Giok that taking it somewhere for an assessment and recommendation is a good investment. And backing up the files was a great first step! (Did you get her e-mail and address book? They're often hidden is quirky little places.)

Good Luck!
JudyB

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 10:16 AM

If you are keeping it on for long periods, it would help if you ensure that the ambient temperature is a low as possible. Also make sure that none of the cooling vents are at all obscured.

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 10:20 AM

I'm using a Compaq laptop & agree with Giok that a laptop can get very hot if it's on for too long.

When it was very new I accidently left it on all day a couple of times cos I hit the start button when I finished, so I lhave learnt to sit it on a heatproof glass tray eveytime I use it cos the base can get very hot.

Late one night recently, (or maybe that was early one morning), it went feral & made strange noises (eek) & started getting very hot (ooops), so I left it in the bath all night as I didn't want to leave it on it's usual wooden shelf!! It didn't; seem to permanetly affect it.

One day soon I will replace it with an iMac as it is rather elderly & I have re-arranged stuff so I can fit in a small computer table.

sandra

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 10:40 AM

Would it make sense to slightly prop it up so air can circulate under it?

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 10:41 AM

Keep it well ventilated to stop it from cooking up. Getting into her ISP shouldn't be any problem on another machine.
Giok

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 10:43 AM

Thanks Giok. Appreciate all your thoughts!

..xx..e

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 10:59 AM

I would recommend taking it to a techie shop and get them to make a ghost copy of the hard disk for you, so that if this HD dies you will have at least a complete backup done professionally.
If the hard disk goes then it should be an easy job for a techie to get things set up quickly at minimal cost.

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 12:00 PM

If the only thing wrong with your disk is that it has a few bad tracks, it would help to run ScanDisk.

1. Open "My Computer"
2. Right-click on the drive name—probably Local Disk (C:)
3. Click on "Properties" in the pop-up menu.
4. Click the "Tools" tab.
5. Under "Error Checking" click "Check Now."
6. Check both options boxes
7. Click "Start."

If there are any bad tracks or sectors on the drive, this will find and flag them so that the computer will never again try to write data on those tracks. Your drive will be good as new, except that it will look somewhat smaller—assuming that's what the problem was to begin with.

If there are any files already occupying bad tracks, those files might be trashed, but if that were the case, I think you would have discovered it when you tried to make backups.

Also consider the possibility that there is a virus in the system that makes it look as if there is something wrong with the disk drive, when there's nothing physically wrong with it. Any good antivirus program should be able to fix this.

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:49 PM

Advice already given is generally good. In most laptops, the HD "sleeps" whenever it's not called on to move stuff around, so leaving the computer on doesn't prevent it from starting/stopping, which are the high stress things a hard drive does.

One thing not mentioned is that you should prepare a "Boot Disk" if you don't have one. IF the laptop has a floppy drive, you can usually fit the boot data, and at least enough accessory files for maintenance on one or two floppies to allow you to start the computer if the hard drive does fail. Assuming you have a floppy drive, put a new (blank or expendable) disk in, in Windows Explorer, right click on the A:\ drive and choose format. In WinXP there should be a box near the bottom of the format choices that says "Make an MS-DOS boot disk." Put a check mark there, and hit GO, and you should get a floppy disk, with a boot sector and about 14 files on it. Put it away just in case. In other Windows versions, the box on the format selection may say something like "copy system files" instead of "make a boot disk." The effect is the same.

A few laptops don't have a floppy drive, or have removable ones that may not be installed. USUALLY, if the floppy drive isn't available, the machine should be set up to boot from CD, so you could make a boot CD in similar fasion. The difficulty is that you have to reboot and go into System Setup to tell easily whether the machine is setup to boot from a CD.

Overheating is about the only real problem you might encounter from leaving a laptop on, assuming of course that it's plugged in so the battery doesn't run down. If you make sure you have good air circulation and don't accidentally toss a blanket on it, it shouldn't harm it. If it seems to be excessively warm, turn a fan on it to blow the heat away. A hard surface is better than a "fuzzy" one, and you may want to make sure it's where the heat won't damage the surface.

If you COPIED key files to CDs for backup, they should be ok. If you used "Windows Backup," you should be aware that this program is notorious for NOT BEING ABLE TO RESTORE stuff that it's backed up. While it sometimes works, I wouldn't trust it as the only archive for my data. Don't worry too much about the program stuff, since you should have installation disks for it; but copies of all the .do*, .xl*, etc. files for work you (or your laptop owner) may have produced are recommended. Documents, Spreadsheets, Email Folders, Address Books, downloaded pictures, and data files for any other programs are the main things you want to save.

In WinXP, Windows Explorer, you can click on Search, Search All Files, Filename containing *.do* and get ALL the Word documents and templates. Ctl-A selects them ALL, regardless of where they are. Ctl-C copies. Go back to Folders, and Ctl-V will paste them ALL in a folder of your choice. Burn them to CD, delete the copies, and repeat for other file extensions of interest.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 05:09 PM

This is all good stuff, thanks!

The personal files and documents, photos etc, are now all safely stored on CDs.

The tech guy at DELL seems sure it's a faulty hard drive.

This laptop doesn't have a floopy disc slot, and from what I've tried to find out so far about re-booting to a CD, I think it's possible though I haven't figured out how yet. Can I just re-boot using the DELL Operating System CDs that say "For reinstallation"?

Also, I did run a diagnostic and the error sign came up but it wouldn't let me continue. The only thing I could do was cancel the test!

I have the laptop propped up between two books so there is a lot of air able to circulate under it as well as around it.

So far so good. I just need to decide if I'll take the chance and leave it in sleep mode on the chance it'll come back up when I'm ready to try to deal with it again!

..xx..e

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:35 PM

Your Dell Operating System CD "For reinstallation" should boot okay, but be cautious. Some laptop makers in the past started the CD reinstallation autorun with "Format C:\," which may not really be what you want. Of course that may be okay if you're really starting with a new Hard Drive, but if you're just trying to turn the machine on, you may have to "abort" the automatic run once the machine starts to keep it from trying to erase everything. My current Dell laptop, about 3 yrs old, doesn't try to format automatically, so I doubt that you'll run into that problem.

The possible "clinker" here is that the BIOS has to be set to look at the CD drive during boot. If it's set up that way, booting with a CD in the drive that doesn't have the boot sector may give you a "Disk does not contain startup - replace disk and hit any key." People sometimes reset the BIOS to NOT look at the CD drive, if they have a habit of leaving a CD in place (not a recommended practice). Some, but not all, newer machines will look at the CD drive and boot from it if there's a bootable disk there, but ignore a non-boot CD. That's probably the case with a Dell laptop less than a few years old.

If you're talking about an internal laptop drive, your friend will likely take it to a "service guy" for installation, and any competent service person will be able to start the machine. If your friend is knowledgeable enough to do the installation, friend will figure it out as well. The recommended boot disk you should have was to allow you to get a restart while you're trying to limp along with the existing HD. If the HD goes completely, rebooting probably wouldn't do you much good anyway, so maybe it's just an academic exercise.

Pending a real fix, about all you can really do is backup, cross two toes, and hope it keeps running (crossing fingers makes it too tough to type).

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: 8_Pints
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 06:49 PM

'Sandra in Sydney' says she left her machine in the bath overrnight to keep it cool. I trust this was nowhere near water, as computers and water don't mix very well!

Bob vG

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 02:44 AM

8 Pints - She probably put it in a zip-lock baggie, at least?

I had the impression that "in the bath" was not so much to keep it cool as to prevent the fire from spreading if it exploded.

Actually, the only "flaming laptop" incidents I've heard of have been due to the rechargeable Lithium batteries, and that seems to be a problem only when there are manufacturing defects that should show up in the first couple of recharge cycles. Several laptop makers have had rather large recalls due to smoking battery problems. A few have had several recalls. For some reason, they seem reluctant to discuss it though.

Some laptops do get hot enough to be quite uncomfortable to hold on your lap, but the temperatures inside, where it really matters to the machinery, are not that much different than is "standard" inside the cases of many desktop machines.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 03:41 AM

Actually, there are water called PC's - there's all sorts of weird stuff out on the web!

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 09:10 AM

.. that should be water COOLED PCs... also seen a setup on the net that used some sort of baby oil cooling liquid...

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: Bernard
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 09:12 AM

This may or may not be helpful at this particular time, but it's worth considering...

Symantec produce a fairly inexpensive software package called 'Norton Ghost' which, amongst other things, is an excellent backup tool...

It can make an 'image file' of the entire hard drive on CDRoms, which can subsequently be used to restore the machine to the exact state it was in at the time of the backup - even if you need to replace the drive. The number of CDs required depends on how much stuff is on the drive; Ghost typically squeezes 1Gb on to a 700Mb CDRom using data compression.

Even better, though, is you can 'clone' one drive from another - I use it to upgrade machines to bigger drives, as you can specify the size of the destination partition. When the old drive is replaced with the new cloned drive the machine will be configured exactly as before but with more free disk space. To do this requires a certain amount of 'hardware knowledge', though.

It's one of the few software packages that does exactly what it says on the box!

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 09:25 AM

Well I managed to get back online this morning after a lot of turning on and off (which can't be good for the machine) and pressing different "F" keys and then pushing more keys which might well have told the machine to now re-boot only from the 34th dimension. I have no idea, really.

I did put in the reinstallation CD but after it seemed to be done, I couldn't even turn it off easily, much less go from there to anywhere else....

And then BAM! I turned it back on (quickly took out the CD) and there I was just where I wanted to be.

I put this down to God deciding she had had enough fun with me for today.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 09:33 AM

8pints & JohnInKansas -

John wins!! It seemed safer to leave it sitting surrounded by tiles than wood if it was going to do something feral like get hot & maybe explode!!

I remember reading about some folks getting burned by using a laptop in their lap & mine left the table very hot in its early days before I decided to sit it on the heatproof glass. I'll remember the hints about using books to let air get around it, or else use the electric fan to cool it down.

sandra
.

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 09:41 AM

Maybe it's the sites (sights!) you look at that get it all hot and bothered! Naughty!

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 11:27 AM

If the owner of the laptop gets an external hard drive and a copy of Ghost, as mentioned above, to copy the hard drive onto the remote drive, the faulty hard drive can be replaced and a clone of the current contents can be put in place to keep everything operating as usual. For desktop computers hard drives are cheap, but generally not so for laptops. The owner might want to do a little shopping to decide if it is worth replacing the hard drive or just buying a new laptop.

Meanwhile, why can't you use your computer on YOUR ISP? Is hers a DSL setup, and you're going through an always on connection? Your laptop should be equiped to search for an existing network. Does she use passwords to protect it? If it's dialup, simply find a local access number for your service and go for it.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: Bernard
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:08 PM

One teensy problem... 'Ghost' doesn't like 'virtual' drives (unless they've changed it on the latest version) - they must be hard wired IDE or SCSI, and not USB, FireWire, parallel or serial...

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 01:14 PM

SRS-I will use my ISP if all else fails, but then my poor flatmate back home (I'm cat-sitting) would be out of luck, since we share it!

..xx..e

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 04:56 PM

With Ghost (the version I have, bought a year ago) you can back up a single drive that has been divided into different drives, if that's what you're describing. Some or all of it.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Need info ASAP, please!
From: Bernard
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:25 PM

Yes, a 'physical drive' that has been partitioned isn't a problem. What Ghost cannot do is use external drives, except SCSI. Nor can it cope with a RAID system...