Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?

Subject: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 06:40 PM

OK, if a guitar player joins a band, presumably s/he has a guitar. But-- who pays for an instrument mic or pickup, and the 1/4" or XLR cable, mic stand(s), amp, mixer, speaker(s), monitors....... how does your band handle all this purchasing, and do you have a policy about what brand/quality/specs everyone is expected to bring to the party? And where does all the stuff LIVE-- who maintinas storage/inventory...?

Hardi's and I have become our band's supply sergeant-- maybe there's another approach.....

~Susan

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 07:49 PM

When I was in a 'Folk'trio we were responsible for our own gear as in Microphone , stand , leads etc , and I had a decent P A . The mob I gig with now is a sort of Conglomerate with the line up dependant on what is required and who is available . We all have Microphone , stand , leads etc and again sometimes its my P A , sometimes one of the others . I have a sixteen channel mixer so if I am there its usually my Amp etc . Usually whoever brings the Amp gets a bit over the top financially .

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 08:15 PM

I bought everything that we needed, which is simplified because our "band" is just electric guitar and four voices. I picked up an amplifier that I can drive four microphones and my guitar from, although I usually bring a separate guitar amp. We are delightfully portable, even bringing along four mic stands, the mics and cables. It all fits in the trunk of my car, so if there's a road that goes there, we can play.

The guys offered to buy some of the stuff, but then you get into the confusion of members leaving and taking some of the equipment with them. Or taking a chain saw and taking their quarter of the amp. This way is much easier.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 08:24 PM

Instrumentalists bring instrument, internal pickup, lead to own amp, spare, amp, mains lead and spare and mains splitter. And mains extension lead. And tuner. And music stand if required. And a light on it if required.   Please. If the man with the PA doesn't give them an instrument mic from their own amp, XLR, DI box etc, they usually just turn their own amps up to 11 so for fox sake sort it.

The pointy head who likes amps brings the rig. He may or may not be part of the band but believe it or not he makes more difference to the sound of the band than almost anything else. If there is no pointy head, the singer brings mic (at least equal to the power of all the other amps put together plus 400 watts if there is a full kit drummer NOT using the PA rig), lead, amp, 2 speakers and speaker poles approproate spares and no-one else gets to use it. If more than one singist, they need to sleep with each other or otherwise reach acommodation.

Electric bass players need to be told VERY FIRMLY they will not be mic'd but DI'd.

People with particular foldback requirements should bring own foldback speaker and power amp (and mains lead and spare and mains extension).

If bass and kit drummer want to be in the PA and loud, they should share the cost of subs, rentalised if need be.

Anyone with wireless stuff should be told to take it home unless it cost over £1,000.

Singers who want Shures (although there are far better vocal mics) should bring them. Singers who want Behringers should be shot. As should anyone who wants Bose anything (except power amps).

Full kit drummers (if they want mic'ing) should bring own kick mic, 3 tom mics, one snare mic, all mic stands, mic cannon-cannon leads, and if they want condenser overheads, mic channels with phantom or a phantom supply.   

Anyone who wants more reverb on the timbali in their foldback should join a different band. Now.

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 09:54 PM

always buy as much equipment as you can. this is in preparation for that day that rolls round all too soon, when you say to the assorted beards and and bodhrans, begone for I will have no more of you..... or words to that effect...

you were right..... whoever it was said, I've got a terrible attitude. I don't know how I put up with myself sometimes.

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 11:15 PM

Oooo, keep it all coming!!!!!!!

~Susan

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 11:34 PM

My gang......Club (non profit) bought it all, but that is not normal. I would say for speakers, amps, lines,stands and mics, should be a Group purchase....for each instrument pick up, they buy their own. IF someone leaves the group, all they get to take is what they bought. Problem is who is going to store, haul and set up the stuff. Mostly the reason we seldom use ours. It's in my attic and is a PAIN to load and haul. Go acoustic.

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 12:37 AM

No one carries more sound equipment than an accoustic band.

As a band we bought, A powered 8 channel mixer, Two 15" speaker wedges with base bins and stands and all the cables. and shure in-ear monitors (3 xs the price if the PA.) The mics and stands are owned by the individual members as are DI's and pre amps and in line tuners. Dependable quality instruments are the responsibility of the band members too. If my preamp breaks I buy a new one. If the powered amp breaks we all buy the new one.

Except for our instruments it is all kept in a trailer owned by the bands front man and he takes a few bucks more for the trailer out of each gig.

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: open mike
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 01:15 AM

i heard that if the sound equip ment is owned by a band member
the usual plan is to give that person 10 % off the top for use
of the equipment...

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 01:17 AM

Oh, and if someone leaves the group who had money into the Group Sound stuff, they leave the sound stuff and lose the money they put in.Oh well.Tuff stuff. We don't usually charge for most gigs, and I don't get paid for storing and hauling the sound stuff. NONE of us ever get paid individually. What money we do get goes into a bank account and we have a catered Christmas Dinner party....

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: Bert
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 02:25 AM

Not having or being in a band, the way I see it is that the band should own (and pay for) the amp and speakers jointly.

The equipment from the player TO the amp should be the responsibility of the player, but this equipment has to be acceptable to the band.

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 02:54 AM

In every band I've played in:-

Individuals buy their own instrument and fittings, back-line amp/speaker(s), leads (power/jacks), any mics necessary (including mic-ing up from back-line to PA) and appropriate leads, stands, DI Box if required, tuner (although for the first 30 years your ear was your tuner!), spare leads and 'odds and sods' for the compulsory occasions when the unbreakable breaks). Includes the Druckin' Fummer, who provides the drummer's equivalents.

The band buys the PA amps/desk/speakers/FX boxes/related cabling/racks/lighting rig/truck or trailer for lugging the whole effin' lot. (Except for one band which included two seriously rich guys, one of whom bought the whole PA/lighting rig and the other bought the truck).

I.e. everything pre-PA, and therefore your 'personal' gear, is your own responsibility. 'Shared' gear - PA and lighting - is shared. responsibility.

In 1963 you could get the whole shootin' match in one car. Now you need a 38-Tonne artic! That's why I retired from bands some time ago and play solo now - 2 guitar cases take far less effort to move around :0)

Fair enuff??

SJ :0)

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 07:21 AM

I keep saying I am going to get lots of stickers printed saying 'Musicians Union says Keep Music Live AND Acoustic'.

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 10:09 AM

Frank and I own all the sound equipment in ShoreGrass, including PA, amps, monitors, mics, stands, etc. When the venue does not provide sound, we take a fee off the top to haul and set up our stuff. This is one of the reasons we went to a single mic approach: to have less stuff to haul. Instead of 5 mics and stands and cords and all that involves, we set up one mic in the center, with sometimes another mic on the acoustic bass. Much easier to carry and much easier to get a balanced acoustic sound. Everything fits in our Chevy extended-length minivan, including the 5 band members and all the instruments.

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: open mike
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 10:31 AM

but where do you put the choreographer who designs your dance steps so each of you can go up to the mike and back without running in to each other? These mikes are becoming more popular..sort of a retro thing it seems....and it requires a whole new style of stage movement and band member interaction than the "each ;layer with their own mike" does. It sounds good though..

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 11:04 AM

After a few mid-air collisions, we worked out a permanent place to stand and alleys where we dash for the mic and then back out quickly. This is only necessary for an instrumental break, because the voices are all picked up by just leaning toward the center, and whoever is singing lead stands in the middle.

It was pretty tricky at first, but now it's what we're used to. I heartily recommend getting away from the morass of wires and mics and going with a simpler approach, and it gives the audience something visual as well as audio during the performance.

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 12:13 PM

Unless your hammered dulcimer player objects to bellying into the mix like a drunken cigarette girl. :~)

~S~

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: GUEST,Mooh
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 01:22 PM

...avoiding the rain, even though the fish are calling my name!

I much prefer it if one person owns the p.a., even if the others pay for the service out of their cut, that way there's nothing to divide when relationships go south. However, that's just the p.a.. It is best if individuals own, carry, and maintain everything to connect to the p.a. I rarely carry my own p.a. simply because it's small and our demands are usually greater, but I've got everyting else, ie mics, stands, backline amps, effects, wiring and even monitors if required.

Renting is often an option though far from ideal. If nobody's got the gear, work out an agreement of some sort. Liquidating gear later will be easier, imho.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: Cluin
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 01:41 PM

Everybody is responsible for their own mics, cables, DIs, stands, etc. Then it's best if one guy owns and stores the PA and speakers (+stands&cables). The owner gets paid an equal bit from each member (including the PA owner) for use of the equipment). That's the easiest and fairest way to handle it, I've found.

Each of the members, if they are professional, should be expected to own quality gear and be responsible for keeping it in good working order. Also, be prepared to pitch in and lend a hand for set-up and tear-down. The owner of the system calls the shots for packing up and transport.

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: Cluin
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 01:44 PM

Oh, by the way, if nobody in the group owns a sound system, you all split costs of a rental (cross your fingers for luck that you get a good one) equally of course.

Go through that experience a few times and you'll see where the incentive for someone to purchase a PA and speakers comes from...

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 01:44 PM

Every band I've ever played in, each memeber owns their own 'gear' (Whatever they'd need to play solo) and the front guy owns the sound system (PA head speakers, maybe an extra mic and stand or two)

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:54 PM

So..... do most of you bring along your own complete system in case the venue's is no good, and then do you sometimes plug your own mixer into the house system just so you can use what you're familiar with? Does this depend on whether the venue is supplying someone to RUN sound?   

~Susan

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 05:10 PM

In my band we dont collectively own anything, for the reasons many have quoted: too much complications if someone leaves. The people who own the pa system and bring it to the gig get a slice off the top of the pay before any sharing out happens. This seems to work well enough.

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: Cluin
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 05:41 PM

The guy who owns the system is responsible for making sure it works right. The band collectively works on the mix. If anybody wants to play with his input going into the system (with pedals, EQs, preamps, etc.) that is their own responsibility, but it shouldn't conflict with the rest of the band's gear. Also don't expect to be a channel-hog; I get one vox channel and one instrument channel in the 5-piece group I play in. Smaller groups have more options that way usually; I get 4 channels (vox, guitar, mandolin, bodhran)in the duo. Monitor mix has to satisfy everbody.

If the venue supplies it's own system or system & sound man, everybody makes sure get there early enough for a good soundcheck and familiarization with the setup long before the gig to minimize surprises.

And I've usually got enough of my own regular crap to haul around and worry about, rather that troubling to bring along a back-up sound system too. All that should be worked out before the day of the gig.

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 06:48 PM

You guys should all do what the Asylum Street Spankers (Austin TX) do -- play absolutely acoustic, no mikes, no amps, no PA.

Their membership has varied over the several years I've been seeing them periodically, but they usually have about a dozen pieces, not all of whom play on every number -- there will be as few as three and as many as everybody on stage at a give time. Most mmbers double or triple on different instruments: 6-string, 12-string and tenor guitars, ukeleles, banjo(s?), mandolin, bass fiddle, sometimes a clarinet. (I'm probably omitting something.)

Their all-natural approach works pretty well, except that sometimes the vocal gets somewhat buried in the instrumental sound. Most of the singers have become quite strong (loud) with their long experience working in these unique conditions, and one vocalist uses a megaphone, a la Rudy Vallee. Also, they use multiple voices rather than solos as much as they can.

Their "no electricity" stance is near-religious in its intensity and seriousness. One of them usually gives a short speech about their dedication to natual acoustic sound, sometime early in the performance. Of course, they had to make some kind of compromise to start recording CDs. On at least one of their albums, they used a *single* microphone, strategically positioned in the hotel ballroom they chose as a recording venue due to its superior acoustics.

QUESTION: Are any of you acoustic bands able to get by without owning a PA because you play only at venues equipped with in-house sound systems? I would imagine this would be possible when playing exclusively in bars, clubs, coffeehouses, etc., but of course impossible when playing nursing homes, churches, etc. I also wonder if the own-no-PA option is more feasible on one side of the ocean or the other.

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: Gypsy
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 08:09 PM

Er.....we did the no PA thing. Having the PA equalizes the instruments, and we love it. My hammered dulcimer can drown out the mandolin, banjo, AND guitar on any given day.
'nuff on that. Himself and i own all the equipment. Cables, canopy, sound, backdrops. Partner/s bring stool and instruments. If someone has a real jones for a particular mic, they can bring one, but we provide mic's. It is just easier to not have community property on this. Oh yeah, we don't take 10% off the top, either. The fee and tips are always split equally. Hate percentages, then you have to get into who drove the farthest, who is 'goodest' yada yada yada.

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: GUEST,Mooh
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 09:19 PM

One group I've played with regularly drives me nuts with folks, especially singers, not carrying their own mics/stands/cables...and the rest have to cover. I have found myself reminding people, not no avail. But part of playing in a band is being driven nuts!

Peace, Mooh

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: Cluin
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 09:32 PM

Yeah, we have one old guy, been playing over 25 years, who refuses to buy a decent mike. Still uses this old high impedance thing that continually causes feedback problems. The big trouble is, he's appointed himself MC for the gigs with that group. People continually complain that they can't hear him clearly, but he refuses to concede it's the mike's fault. Whadjagonnadoo?

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 12:53 AM

On the question of whether to use the band's PA or the house PA system: I've found for a folklore society that's used to bigger spaces, to just show up and let the society take care of the sound system. If it sounds like they're iffy on what they have, it's best to bring your own system, because that's one more thing under your control. We always have our stands and bottoms in the car, sometimes, I pack the mic bag just in case.

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 01:34 AM

" One group I've played with regularly drives me nuts... not carrying their own mics/stands/cables...and the rest have to cover"

If you showed up to a job building houses without your own tools, you'd be invited to either go home and get them, or go home and stay there...

"but he refuses to concede it's the mike's fault"
Same as if you showed up with lousy tools...

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: GUEST,Jess A
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 09:58 AM

in our band, we jointly paid for all our PA (speakers, amps, foldback, mikes, leads, everything) by saving up gig money, and the then 6 of us signed up to an agreement which tried to cover every eventuality, as follows:

The PA and other assets are jointly owned by all 6 band members. Decisions about buying/selling kit can only be made by agreement of all 6 members. All have equal rights and responsibilities as far as using, storing, maintaining and insuring the PA goes.

„X        If an individual chose to leave the band, they would continue to own a 6th share of the PA that was currently owned by the band at the point they left. It would be up to the other members of the band to decide if they wanted to buy them out. If a ¡¥buy out¡¦ did take place, the price of the PA would be taken as the price that was paid for the PA, not the resale value. After a member has been ¡¥bought out¡¦ they no longer have any rights to any PA.
        
„X        If an individual were asked to leave the band, the rest of the band would have to buy them out straight away.
        
„X        If the band split up, and the majority of the members agreed, the PA would be sold and proceeds split between all members. Otherwise, each individual would still own a 6th share of the PA and the ex-band would own it as a group. Individuals could choose or be asked to leave that group, in which case buy outs would take place as above. The group would have equal rights to use the PA on a first come first served basis, and would have equal responsibilities for storing, maintaining and insuring it.
        
„X        If a new person joined the band, they would not own any of the existing PA, although they would have equal responsibilities for storage, maintenance and insurance. They would have an equal share of ownership of anything that was bought after they joined (unless it was using money saved up before they joined). However they could choose to ¡¥buy in¡¦ to equal ownership ¡V by contributing a 7th share (or 6th share, say, if they were replacing somebody who had already left) of the original purchase price into band funds.
        
„X        If a band member(s) died, their 6th share(s) would be inherited equally by the rest of the band. If the entire band died at the same time, a 6th share would belong to each of their estates.


So far our band has reduced from 6 to 5 in a good natured & friendly fashion, we're saving up to 'buy out' the person who left. Not sure if our agreement would stand up in court but since we're all mates, fair chance it'll never come to that. Our kit is big & heavy and we each store what we can in our houses, some more than others depending on how much storage each of us have... a share of fee from gigs goes into a kitty to cover insurance, new purchases etc, and we pay travel expenses to all the drivers or pay to hire a van depending on distances. we're never going to make our fortunes but we do cover our costs...

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: GUEST,Jess A
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 11:00 AM

yowch, don't know where all those funny characters came from when I pasted from Word. you get the gist of what I mean though...

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 04:09 PM

It wasn;t funny the night it happened, but it's gotten somewhat more amusig in the year since--

Our church agreed to offer space for a concert. An amazing number of people in the chain of agreements assumed we had a church PA for music! Wed didn't!

So the booked vocal quartet arrived to find me setting up our own personal (i.e. cheap) 4-channel PA and 4 Shure mics (ours, begged, and borrowed). They were very nice about this, but they did have their own much better quality mics on board and carefully unsetupped the whole thing and re-rigged with their own mics/stands. They did elect to go ahead and use our PA, although they had a roadie/driver who offered to bring in theirs. However, theirs would have been WAY too big for the space, and they had the grace to realize that.

So this was before we had bought the speaker stands, and the speakers that night were set a few levels up off the floor, on carefully-draped folding chairs for the tilt-back. You know, it actually sounded really good. I lent all this gratis, swearing it would be the last time.

The next year under similar circumstances, we didn't volunteer to run sound that would just be all redone by the arriving group. THAT group, it turned out, had spec'd the exact tech specs they requirted, in their contract. We simply put the relevant people in touch with the urgency of meeting these contractual specs, and they did find someone local who took care of it all-- so they sounded good, too.

What I learned, from being part of the venue instead of part of the entertainment, was that it never hurts to check all these technical details in advance, and it never hurts the performer to have a little junk in the trunk in case it's needed. Because some really nice people book musicians without knowing what will be involved, and some of our most fun gigs have had the least to offer, tech-wise.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 05:21 PM

Its always a good idea to check what facilities the venue has ( and dont accept an 'I Think we have') unless you are used to carrying your own gear as a matter of course ! As Susan sid , there are a lot of working bands who stipulate exactly what THEY expect to find !

Subject: RE: Band's Sound Equip't-- Who Buys?
From: treewind
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 05:28 AM

Jess has the right idea for her band. If stuff is bought jointly, draw up an agreement, otherwise when people leave the band after donating their share of the proceeds of early gigs to buying a PA system, they've effectively made a present of it to the others.

Obviously members of the band should own their own pickups, amplifiers (if used) stands and cables up to the mixer. In one ceilidh band I was in, our caller insisted on owning his own mic too, as he didn't think it fair for the instrumentalists to have invested in their gear while he didn't have to pay for anything; nowadays many callers own their own radio headsets anyway.

In Fendragon, Mary and I own all the main PA, and the monitoring system. That suits us fine because it means that we can go out as a duo or a scratch band with no objection from the other band members. We sometimes also use the monitors as a mini sound system for playing recordings at festival workshops.

Anahata