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BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?

GUEST,Treehouse 20 Aug 04 - 09:05 AM
Leadfingers 20 Aug 04 - 09:35 AM
Midchuck 20 Aug 04 - 09:36 AM
GUEST,Treehouse 20 Aug 04 - 09:59 AM
GUEST 20 Aug 04 - 10:11 AM
Georgiansilver 20 Aug 04 - 10:18 AM
HRH ted of hull 20 Aug 04 - 10:21 AM
Once Famous 20 Aug 04 - 10:22 AM
GUEST,Treehouse 20 Aug 04 - 10:25 AM
Once Famous 20 Aug 04 - 10:31 AM
GUEST 20 Aug 04 - 10:32 AM
Bee-dubya-ell 20 Aug 04 - 10:38 AM
Dave Bryant 20 Aug 04 - 10:41 AM
HRH ted of hull 20 Aug 04 - 10:43 AM
wysiwyg 20 Aug 04 - 10:43 AM
GUEST,Treehouse 20 Aug 04 - 10:54 AM
Cluin 20 Aug 04 - 11:00 AM
The Beast of Farlington 20 Aug 04 - 11:02 AM
Little Hawk 20 Aug 04 - 11:15 AM
GUEST,Treehouse 20 Aug 04 - 11:15 AM
GUEST,Treehouse 20 Aug 04 - 11:18 AM
Little Hawk 20 Aug 04 - 11:21 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 20 Aug 04 - 11:23 AM
The Beast of Farlington 20 Aug 04 - 11:23 AM
Amos 20 Aug 04 - 11:24 AM
GUEST 20 Aug 04 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,Treehouse 20 Aug 04 - 11:26 AM
GUEST 20 Aug 04 - 11:29 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 20 Aug 04 - 11:29 AM
Jim Dixon 20 Aug 04 - 11:32 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 20 Aug 04 - 11:33 AM
GUEST,Treehouse 20 Aug 04 - 11:36 AM
Little Hawk 20 Aug 04 - 11:37 AM
Georgiansilver 20 Aug 04 - 11:42 AM
Stilly River Sage 20 Aug 04 - 11:48 AM
Ebbie 20 Aug 04 - 11:49 AM
HRH ted of hull 20 Aug 04 - 11:49 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 20 Aug 04 - 11:57 AM
GUEST,Treehouse 20 Aug 04 - 11:58 AM
Little Hawk 20 Aug 04 - 12:02 PM
GUEST 20 Aug 04 - 12:04 PM
George Papavgeris 20 Aug 04 - 12:10 PM
Little Hawk 20 Aug 04 - 12:10 PM
George Papavgeris 20 Aug 04 - 12:11 PM
The Beast of Farlington 20 Aug 04 - 12:12 PM
Little Hawk 20 Aug 04 - 12:20 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 20 Aug 04 - 12:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Aug 04 - 12:39 PM
GUEST,Treehouse 20 Aug 04 - 12:41 PM
GUEST,Treehouse 20 Aug 04 - 12:50 PM

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Subject: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST,Treehouse
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:05 AM

From my vantage point, the "ugly period" as McGrath referred to this summer at Mudcat, seems to be a problem with truly obnoxious flaming and trolling by members.

Now, there ought to be a way for people to keep their threads on topic. Ignoring disruptive behavior in a thread is usually not that difficult, unless one feels they must engage with the person because they are accepted members of the forum. But one really doesn't need to comment upon another person's inflammatory posts, just because it's there. It can be ignored.

Shunning works. Those members who are currently showing a very ugly/very stupid side to themselves WILL change their behavior and do so quickly, if they are ignored consistently by everyone participating in a serious thread.

The strident religion threads are getting a bit tiresome.    I haven't seen a decent political thread in weeks now--it's all right wing screeds and trolling. And the Brit driven shite and rubbish threads are really a bore.

I'd like to say the music threads are a good alternative, but there hasn't been much of interest there either.

It seems like the forum has been taken over by lager louts and frat boy types. These are the times when Clinton Hammond's arguments for forum moderation might be listened to and appreciated.

This place is WAY out of control.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:35 AM

The only thing to do with any one who is obnoxious in here is to ignore them .


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Midchuck
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:36 AM

Oh, come on, let me stay! I'll be good! I won't say anything contrary to the conventional assumptions of modern-day liberalism and political correctness, I promise!

And when the list gets so bland and dull that it isn't worth bothering with, because all contrary opinion has been stamped out, I'll leave voluntarily.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST,Treehouse
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:59 AM

Peter, for now, the majority of posters in the forum are progressive socially and politically, so for the socially and politically conservative posters to expect a miraculous change in that regard seems unrealistic at best, and when the conservative posters start hijacking the threads with invective because they feel outnumbered and overwhelmed, destructive at worst.

While I agree there are problems among a certain group of MC members with low tolerance of people with different opinions from their own being able to effectively articulate their position rather than attacking the person they disagree with, that does usually get sorted out in the course of the thread.

The problems, as I see them, aren't with people holding different political and social views. They are with the ways people react to the people with different political and social views. The problems are with the apolitical and nonpolitical posters hijacking political threads out of boredom and being ignored by those who come here to discuss the political and social issues of the day--that is, discuss the contexts in which we are making our art.

Today's headlines are tomorrow's folk song titles in many instances. The political and social issues have relevance to this particular type of a forum, because so much folk music springs from political and social concerns. Not all folk music. But a good enough portion of it to be a relevant aspect of discussion in a folk music forum.

I'm not, however, convinced of the relevance of William Shatner, Is Cricket Shite, and fart threads. And when the people who are largely here for inane, mindless entertainment not only encroach upon the serious discussions, but running them out of the forum altogether, I think people have a right to be aggravated by that. And to say so.

And then there are all the members who feel justified pulling out their flamethrowers without giving it a second thought, because they feel they have been wronged in the past. If people could just stay in the moment, and keep their trigger finger off the 'Submit Message' button when reading something from someone they disagree with, things wouldn't be quite such an abomination.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:11 AM

The list is already dull and bland, but it isn't because there are more progressives than conservatives. It's because the BS and music sections both have been taken over by the lager louts.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:18 AM

"And the Brit driven shite and rubbish threads are really a bore".
GUEST Treehouse...are you not guilty of what you are accusing others of??


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: HRH ted of hull
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:21 AM

Transport them to Australia!!! oh.... apparently we don't do that anymore.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:22 AM

Guest, Treehouse.

Do you take a crap everyday? You sound pretty constipated to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST,Treehouse
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:25 AM

Perhaps. But I'm not taking over THEIR threads. Mutual respect and live and let live is the only way for the forum to remain viable.

So why can't the jokesters back the hell off? Don't like politics and religion threads--ignore them. Don't come into them with the intention of wrecking them.

If you don't like/can't function in the argument/debate mode, and wrongly interpret someone strongly arguing with your opinion as getting personal when they aren't (because you don't like conflict, are thin skinned, or whatever), then stay out of the debate/argument threads, instead of taking out the flamethrowers or starting a nasty, personal attack thread against the person who you feel has wronged you.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:31 AM

I like political threads.

Vote Republican.

I like religious thread.

Jesus is not the messiah

See?


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:32 AM

Those who interject a humorous aside into the political/religous threads are NOT ruining them for me.

It is all part of converation. If someone doesn't like their beliefs questioned, it is very simple...keep them to themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:38 AM

Who's obnoxious? I put up with all of 'em. I figure anyone with nothing better to do than hang out down here in the BS section of this forum is no more and no less fucked up than I am regardless of their politics, religion etc. Let 'em do whatever they need to do to get off. So what if someone's an asshole? When I had a "real job" I often met a genuine, real-life, 3D asshole every few minutes. It's a helluva lot easier to ignore them here than when they're in your face.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:41 AM

"And the Brit driven shite and rubbish threads are really a bore"

But it is British rubbish and shite ! - perhaps it's less boring to us Brits than corresponding American threads. Correspondence, even of the more trite variety always works best between friends and aquaintances, and because this country is a smaller place than the US, we do tend to know each other.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: HRH ted of hull
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:43 AM

Good point Dave. I rub shoulders with dozens of mudcatters every weekend.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:43 AM

Everything one person likes is detested by others, that's life. Accusing people of being obnoxious is obnoxious itself. Oh look now I've done it too. See what I mean?

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST,Treehouse
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:54 AM

It is attitudes like that, bee dubya ell, that are so intolerant. What you are saying is, anything goes. What many here are saying is, if anything goes, than you don't ever get anything of quality. You don't get anything of value. You just get a big pile of crap.

The site owner's refusal to allow moderation is the real problem here, just as it always has been. "Reasonable" members once argued vociferously against moderation just a few summers ago, because they really enjoyed flaming guests.

Those same members are now being overwhelmed and driven away from the forum by assholes pouring into the BS section, and trashing the place, because they can get away with it on the argument that because it is a "BS" section, it means that they get to take out their information superhighway road rage on anyone they encounter here.

Maybe people should learn to watch what they ask for, because what we have now is a perfect example of what comes with absolutely no effort.

So, if the music threads are dull and repetitive, and most rarely get more than 10 posts, and the BS section continues to be tolerated as the shit hole for the music section, why would anyone with a legitimate interest in folk and blues music be enticed to come in and stay awhile?

What in god's name makes any of you in the "anything goes in the BS section" camp, think that having a road rage forum is going to make this place viable?

There are literally thousands of discussion forums on the internet that have had to be abandoned because nobody was willing to do the hard work of policing themselves and one another, to keep the forum clean. That is really what this is about. bee dubya ell, you just don't want ANYONE here telling you to follow some basic rules of decency when interacting with others here. You want to burp and fart and peoples' faces? Well, fine. Just don't expect many people to want to be in your company, except those who burp and fart right back at you, and find the whole exercise entertaining.

But that isn't what most folk music enthusiasts come here for. But then, the asshole members who have taken over this place aren't coming here for the cafe atmosphere. It's the lager lout pub atmosphere that rules here, because in 3D life, the lager louts are being driven to fringes of society in Britain, and the more civilized cafe society is taking over.

I guess the Mudcat BS part of the Mudcat Cafe forum is one of the places online where the lager louts and lassies have decided to make a stand, because they know no one here will stop them.

Which is why the folkies are pretty much out of here.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Cluin
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:00 AM

Have a beer, Treehouse and relax.
A word of advice: below the line, take nothing seriously. It's better that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:02 AM

You use a lot of cursing and blasphemy to make your point, don't you Treehouse?

Don't you think you might just be hanging yourself by your own petard?


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:15 AM

How anyone can imagine that jokes about William Shatner could harm a forum or its participants is beyond me. The beloved Catspaw49 (otherwise known as Spaw) has perpetrated much similar humour on this forum, but not so much lately because he is stuck with a slow computer. How do Shatner and the WSSBA differ substantially from the NYCFFTS, Paw & Cletus, the Reg Boys, Cleigh O'Possum, the Little Pissant, voting for Millard Fillmore, and various other silly running jokes that Spaw put on this forum...all of which drew their own audience of adherents who laughed along with the joke...while some others didn't.

I am a folkie. So are numerous other people here to whom I assume you are objecting when they don't meet your expectations.

However, I don't think you've said nearly enough, Treehouse. No, not nearly enough. I would welcome a 5,000 word post from you to further explain your position. Even a 15,000 word post. Tell us more, by all means! Get it ALL off your chest. It'll keep you off the streets for awhile, I figure.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST,Treehouse
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:15 AM

No, because swearing and cursing isn't the problem.

Look, the Brit lager louts and lassies are being locked out of all the major European capitals, and entire European countries are banning this very behavior we are tolerating here at Mudcat.

That is all I'm saying. You want "anything goes" by this standard, and the first thing to go will be folk and blues music discussions, just as we've seen happen this summer.

There is no difference between the British and American versions of this--the "gone wild" American thing is exactly the same. Rude, offensive, stupid, banal. Day in, day out this summer, that's all we've seen here.

It's either going to sink this ship, or the rats will be driven off it. It's that simple.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST,Treehouse
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:18 AM

What we are seeing now is most definitely the downhill slide begun by the Catspaws and Little Hawks. The jerks that have taken over here are your descendants, because you made sure you stacked the decks against anyone who called you on your appalling behavior.

If the shoe fits...


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:21 AM

Tell me more...I am honored to be ranked in a Rogue's Gallery with Spaw.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:23 AM

blar blar blar, stop moaning.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:23 AM

"Day in, day out this summer, that's all we've seen here" - that is somewhat of an exaggeration

"The jerks that have taken over here are your descendants" - charming! you don't help your case when you use the same methods you despise


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Amos
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:24 AM

Treehouse:

I share your resentment towards the high volume of deliberate inanaity and cultivated stupidity which ahs been coloring the Cat of late. I have never seen so much drivel in my life, outside of some grade-school recesses, and it saddens me that a place of good will and tolerance, humor and intelligence, should be so cluttered up with cultivated mindlessness and what I think of as passive aggression. It is not as though counting to 100 is funny, or as though mimicking threads discussing something real by starting threads that are just empty blather about unreality adds anything to the communication.

There's the rub--the desire to communicate is being suborned by those who wish to pour oiut nbon-communication, as if seeking to drown communication because they can't bear the thought of people understanding each other.

It is not my habit to promote intolerance, but I hate to see a beautiful place so littered with trash and the refuse of indifference, uncaring and unthoughtful.


Amos


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:24 AM

The peasants are revolting.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST,Treehouse
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:26 AM

"you don't help your case when you use the same methods you despise"

There is always a time for honesty, and this is it for me.

I don't anyone rushing to the defense of this behavior except those who routinely engage in it.

Gee, wonder why that is.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:29 AM

They're changing the guards at Buckingham Palace.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:29 AM

too many moany people about nowadays.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:32 AM

Ignore them. Don't argue with them. Don't respond to them. If you must discuss them with others, do it in Personal Messages.

If you have gotten into unpleasant arguments in the past, re-read the old threads to (1) see how you contributed to the escalation of the rhetoric, (2) decide at what point you could have bowed out gracefully, and (3) see whether you could have interpreted another person's remarks in a more generous way.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. (That is, you're one of the people that others shouldn't respond to.)


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:33 AM

Amos-you moan about the BS, I've just clicked on your name!
Have you ever posted to a music thread???


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST,Treehouse
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:36 AM

As I said in the first thread Jim Dixon, shunning does work, quite effectively. But there are also times when we need to draw attention to the mess in here. Ignoring that it's a mess doesn't help either.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:37 AM

Oh, it happens, all right, Amos, and I've noticed it too. Who hasn't? I don't in the least mind people who make goofy jokes, while frequently also having something worthwhile to say. I do find it tedious when someone has absolutely nothing worthwhile to say or when they are repeatedly, deliberately offensive or mean-spirited...not in a way that makes a useful point, but out of sheer hostility. I do not wish, however, that I could control them, because it's not my business to control other people.

I find this forum interesting, because it's a microcosm of the World. You encounter all possibilities here, as you do in the World. That means...either you adapt and grow up emotionally...or you storm off in a huff, because the forum isn't as you would like it to be. You can do that in the World too. You can buy a house in a gated community, hire guards, grow big hedges around on all sides, and complain about how awful the people on the outside are. I feel sorry for someone who reacts that way to life.

Those who wish to improve the World must make a positive input to it themselves. I do. Spaw does. You do. Carol does. Bobert does. Lots of us do. I have no idea who Treehouse is and as yet no evidence of a positive input on his or her part.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:42 AM

mmmmm Yes Guest Treehouse...their are lager louts in UK and Europe generally..I assume you are in the US...Do you feel safe when you walk down the streets there..we hear of people being shot frequently in US..Big news when someone goes mad with a gun eh??? Think I would rather take my chances with the lager louts thank you.
I love the music threads, reading many of them often and learning some things from them. I love to use the non-music threads.... occasionally, in a lighthearted way...not like some who take it so seriously!!!! If that's your bag friend then please just live with it and stop blaming anything other than yourself for getting so involved with the whole issue.
Best wishes.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:48 AM

It hardly gets noticed when something gets posted the the music threads and in the tech threads that help us keep our computers running and lines of communications open. The books were pulled out and citations offered on the King Arthur thread a couple of days ago--hardly a blip since. But going to that trouble and not getting a response is better than the nonsense below the line lately. It's time for a few virtual dope slaps.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:49 AM

As no doubt, iyo, one of the people sliming these halls with drivel, I mght point out that threads and posts with pointed humor are far different from those loaded with invective and insult. And that, imo, is where the difficulty lies.

If one does not get the humor or does not appreciate a humorous point, it is easy to slide over that particular post. Invective, on the other hand, is meant to be unpleasant and hurtful.

So, Treehouse, imo, you are using too broad a brush.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: HRH ted of hull
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:49 AM

( put sensible head on....) Maybe it's time to hear from the people that own this mudcat to declare whether they are happy with the way it's going or not? Maybe some of us, myself included, ought to bugger off.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:57 AM

I haven't seen much in the way of Mudcat wars, but agree that an increasing proportion of content is sheer drivel - much of it indeed Brit driven (along the lines of what's going to happen next in someone's favourite soap). The Shatner and Cletis stuff I can live without (and fear not, LH, I don't think many mudcatters would put your humour up there with Spaw's), and I share Joe Offer's aversion to the hugs and prayers threads.

A lot can be ignored,but a lot can't because it is intertwined parasitically with useful content. For instance threads about Mudcat gatherings contain essential details for those planning to attend, yet are frequently over-run by inane chit-chat which at best amounts to private natter between people who know each other, and which has the effect of making others feel excluded.

I considered inviting some serious musicians to the last "Loughstock" gathering, but knew that if I referred them to the relevant thread I would be exposing Mudcat at its most puerile.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST,Treehouse
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 11:58 AM

I don't know about your world Little Hawk, but the Mudcat Cafe this summer doesn't even remotely reflect it.

Georgiansilver, I live in an urban neighborhood in the US. Yes, we have the equivalent of the laddie/lager louts and lasses behavior in the US, it is known by many names. Beer boys. Frat boys. Girls gone wild. Those are all labels put upon the worst aspects of anti-social behavior while no one in authority is looking.

That is what this is really about. People from both sides of the Atlantic are behaving badly in the Mudcat Cafe because there is no authority figure here to stop them from doing it. That is why they only inhabit unmoderated internet chat forums. They get thrown out of the moderated forums for their bad behavior. For good reason.

Which is why a good number of old timers like Little Hawk keep claiming that moderation is the equivalent of censorship. It isn't. Forum moderation is where a group of people agree to have discussions according to a previously agreed to set of rules, and those who refuse to abide by those rules are removed. It isn't censorship, it is consensus building.

When there is so little to celebrate or embrace in the Mudcat Cafe, why should I try and paint phoney smiley faces on a bad situation, just to "be positive". That is a manipulative guilt trip from the offending group. This isn't about being positive or negative. It is about an open airing of long held grievances. Only when an honest airing of grievances takes place, can solutions be found.

Therein lies the difference.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 12:02 PM

We all have an aversion to various things, Peter K. There must be a hundred theads right now in the music section and 60 in the BS section. How many of them will I visit today? 10 or 12? I will certainly not visit those threads that I have an aversion to, nor will I experience mental distress over the fact that those threads exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 12:04 PM

Treehouse...who would you throw out?


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 12:10 PM

I have seen some marvellous threads this past year in Mudcat; some were even in the BS section (the discussion on icons for example). The gems-to-crap ratio might be 1/30 now, where it was 1/10 a year ago, but I still find the forum very valuable.

I am put off slightly by the increase in crap-shite threads, but that's just personal taste. It actually helps to see it in the title, because I can then avoid such threads - which is how I make it through a Mudcat read without getting annoyed. But...

The comparison to lager louts and what is happening in European cities is incorrect, in my opinion. This is a forum where people choose to visit, they don't have to inhabit it. Furthermore, it is a forum of folkies, traditionally a diverse, sometimes unruly or politically incorrect, tolerant yet kicking-at-the-tyres-of-convention kind of people - and that's partly its inherent value. To try to shoehorn that into a prissy well-behaved discussion group would be moderating the essence out of it.

It may die, as people vote with their feet. Or perhaps it will not. But it is precious as it is. I give you two much better examples:

a) The best flowers need shit to grow

b) I'd rather spend the last day in the life of an animal that's about to become extinct watching it, recording it, understanding it, enjoying it in its freedom, than cage it forever in order to "protect" it or "preserve" it.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 12:10 PM

Good question! :-) And how does someone who is either a Guest...or a member afraid to post under his/her own name get the authority to throw anyone out?

Treehouse, there is now another Shatner thread at the top of the BS section. Get mad, gnash your teeth, tell your kids the end of the world is at hand, and tell us ALL about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 12:11 PM

...and yes, I did vote a dozen times or so for Philmore too. I like to think that I can be serious and joke too. At the same time.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 12:12 PM

I contribute music and off-topic posts to several moderated fora. Moderation in itself does not guarantee off-topic posting. It all depends on what those who run the forum consider acceptable and the extent to which they allow the membership to run the forum.

In my experience the old 80/20 principle comes into play here - about 20% of the membership contribute 80% of the posts which leads to the feeling among that 20% of members that they should have the biggest say in how things are run - an oligarchy, if you like. That's the feeling they have but one of the reasons that they remain the most frequent posters is that newcomers are frightened off by a cliquey feeling and intolerance of difference.

I accept that it can be annoying to have a thread blown off course by humourous posting but if those who want to keep it serious have nothing else to add, then what's the problem? We can't MAKE others contribute in a certain way if they don't want to. If you have something else to say, keep saying it.

I don't think Mudcat's technology helps either. It's reassuringly antiquated - there are many more user-friendly bulletin boards that help you quote a previous post and get the thread back on track.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 12:20 PM

That 80/20 principle you're describing happens in any club or group of people anywhere, doesn't it? The "regulars" are simply those who participate the most and who get to know each other the best. It takes time to become a regular...if you want to.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 12:30 PM

One thing I don't understand is why GUEST, Treehouse, who appears to be a member based on his/her familiarity with the goings-on around here, is posting anomymously. The only posts I can find for anyone named Treehouse are the ones on this thread. If I were inclined to start a thread on this tempest-in-a-teapot topic I would be absolutely certain to do it under my own name. Treehouse obviously holds strong opinions on the matter, so what's wrong with having those opinions associated with a name we recognize?   

And, Amos, my dear friend, I'm sorry, but I don't see much difference between the inanity of many of the silly threads being talked about here and the brand of silliness we get into over on "The Mother of All BS Threads". Is it just that having several "Is _______ Shite?" threads going at the same time is excessive? Perhaps, in the same fashion in which the Horse Punchers have been asked to only start one thread a month, the shite-heads could start something like "It's August! Are these things shite?"


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 12:39 PM

There's humorous and there's nasty and deliberately hurtful, and they aren't the same thing. Attempts at jokes by people whose sense of humour or humor is a million miles removed from what we might ourselves consider funny can be irritating, especially if it seems to knock off course a discussion we are interested in - but deliberate insults and abuse is what causes the real damage.

But what I've observed over the past few years is that these kind of things do run their course. At some point people stop rewarding the people who are swaggering around trying to disrupt things, and they move on elsewhere, or start to read their own posts perhaps, and come to their senses.

A good rule of thumb, I suggest, is that it is never right to say anything here that you would be unwilling to say face to face to the person you are addressing. There's no way to enforce this, and the relative freedom from being "moderated" of the Mudcat is a good thing in my view, even though there is a price to be paid for it. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't aim at moderation in how we deal with each other here.


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST,Treehouse
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 12:41 PM

Beast, there is virtually nothing I disagree with in your last post.

However, there is still this pesky problem of people overstepping their bounds. That is happening a lot these days, and consistently by the same people. So what is the problem with calling them on it? That is all I'm doing here. Expressing my opinion, and calling the people I think are going well beyond reasonableness in their efforts to impress one another.

Of course I can't control anyone's behavior. I also don't want to play forum cop to the delinquents. I've never been involved with such an immature group of folk musicians and folk music afficionados, so I guess I have nothing to compare this place to. But I do know a lot of folk musicians and folk music afficionados. They are, by most anyone's standards, a witty, warm, engaging, argumentative, and opinionated group of people, overly drawn to things that are old and antiquated. Which is why I'm sure a lot of them congregate in this, rather than the more state of the art folk music boards that don't put up with childish behavior that is so admired here.

Only occassionally does childish pranksterism entertain, and when it's all you have going, it ceases to fun and funny altogether.

It is one thing to co-exist, ignore, and live and let live. If that is what was happening here, no one would have cause to complain, would they?

But it is another thing entirely to CONSTANTLY disrupt and destroy conversations with incredibly bad manners. A lot of members are complaining about this, not just me. So maybe, right now, in the current circumstances, we all need to examine our own behavior and see how we might be contributing to the mess, and god forbid, actually pitch in and help clean it up. Sometimes getting others to do their share requires bitching and nagging. If I am guilty of bitching at and nagging those forum members who are causing the problems, so be it.

Somebody needed to call them on it. Polite and reasonable attempts to get them to stop have been mocked and ignored.

So just why should we all shut up and take it again?


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Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST,Treehouse
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 12:50 PM

I see no difference whatsoever between the Mother of All BS sorts of threads and the Rubbish/Shite threads and the many variations of the Mudcat popularity contest threads (birthday threads, prayer and hug threads, etc). They are all of the same ilk. I've never even opened the Mother thread, so that in itself ought to tell you something about where I spend my time in this forum, which is in both music and BS sections, but not in the threads of those ilk.

Now, if the posters to those threads would behave properly in the non-mindless drivel threads I regularly participate in, there would be no cause to bitch slap them when they get out of hand. But they all got a good virtual bitch slap coming to them, and I'm happy to give it.


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