BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting

Subject: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:12 PM

All this poll requires is for each member to vote yes or no to the following. Guests votes will not be included in the final anaysis.

Vote YES
If you want the moderators to take a very strong approach to mudcat members who FLAME or are abusive to other mudcat members. Good humoured banter is not the issue.

Stop guests being able to contribute to mudcat threads. Only allow them to read threads.

Make guests post in a seperate section that is moderated and abusive posts removed immediately.

Have a "report to moderator button" when a thread seems to be getting out of hand. In such cases the thread is locked until the issues are sorted out.

Vote No

If you don't agree. Remember guests do not get a vote, so any posting from guests is ignored.




At the end of the day, I think most decent mudcat members do not want the abuse that seems to be going on at the moment, to continue.
I have to say that I am getting alarmed at the amount of abuse that is being handed out by the minority, which is causing good mudcat members to leave the forum.

So "Stand up and be counted"

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:15 PM

Yes

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: jimmyt
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:16 PM

yes

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: maggiethecat
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:17 PM

yes

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,The Newt
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:22 PM

YOU BETCHA! You've bought my vote there Villan.

Now the, who shall we nominate for Mudcat Guest Gestapo Coordinator to take on the job? It'll be grand to watch the round-up. You can sell tickets to support Max and his poor wee indigent family!

A Guest "Free Speech Zone". I love it!

Did you get that idea from the Democratic Leadership Council?

Thanks there Villan, et al. This is the best laugh I've had all day!

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Amos
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:26 PM

No.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:29 PM

Sorry forgot to vote


YES

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:30 PM

'yes' to the concept
'no' to the details, which are much too complex to administer easily

just a requirement that 'guests' must choose a name, even if they don't register, would satisfy me.

really abusive posts would continue to be deleted and certain threads closed at the discretion of Joe or Jeff.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:31 PM

NO!!

I am against censoring any of these posts. This is not Disney World.

I don't care for anonymous guests either, they are gutless trolls. The flaming is wrong. However, I despise the suggestions you have made. You are suggesting creating a "thought police" and I am dead set against that.

This supposed "abuse" is something we all need to deal with. I was flamed a few weeks ago by a guest and I went off the deep end. It was my fault for becoming a victim.

Closing down all the bars will not cure alcholism. Everyone needs to deal with this as individuals.   

I hate the premise of this thread.   Can I get a moderator to remove this?????

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:36 PM

Yes...

But I think


-Stop guests being able to contribute to mudcat threads. Only allow them to read threads.

Make guests post in a seperate section that is moderated and abusive posts removed immediately.-

Are unnecessarily repetitive

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Cluin
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:36 PM

Who's deciding this stuff?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:37 PM

I understand what you are saying Bill D, and accept "yes in concept.


This is a serious YEs or No situation. If we start commenting then it will soon become flamed. That is not the intention.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,The Newt
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:38 PM

That's right. If BillD doesn't get his way about MAKING guests be members, then he is gonna...keep pissin' and moanin' about guests like everybody else does!

Ironic, isn't it, that Jerry Rasmussen left because he was fed up with asshole members, yet the best solutions that have been offered to solve the problems follow along these lines?

CROWD:
Burn her! Burn! Burn her! Burn her!
BEDEVERE:
How do you know she is a witch?
VILLAGER #2:
She looks like one.
CROWD:
Right! Yeah! Yeah!
BEDEVERE:
Bring her forward.
WITCH:
I'm not a witch. I'm not a witch.
BEDEVERE:
Uh, but you are dressed as one.
WITCH:
They dressed me up like this.
CROWD:
Augh, we didn't! We didn't...
WITCH:
And this isn't my nose. It's a false one.
BEDEVERE:
Well?
VILLAGER #1:
Well, we did do the nose.
BEDEVERE:
The nose?
VILLAGER #1:
And the hat, but she is a witch!
VILLAGER #2:
Yeah!
CROWD:
We burn her! Right! Yeaaah! Yeaah!
BEDEVERE:
Did you dress her up like this?
VILLAGER #1:
No!
VILLAGER #2 and 3:
No. No.
VILLAGER #2:
No.
VILLAGER #1:
No.
VILLAGERS #2 and #3:
No.
VILLAGER #1:
Yes.
VILLAGER #2:
Yes.
VILLAGER #1:
Yes. Yeah, a bit.
VILLAGER #3:
A bit.
VILLAGERS #1 and #2:
A bit.
VILLAGER #3:
A bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:40 PM

NO
Of course I dont like abusive anonymous crap. But I like these proposals even less I'm afraid. They are designed to deal with a real problem that annoys most of us greatly, but the solution propoed is worse than the problem. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Deckman
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:45 PM

I vote "NO." (does that surprise you?)

If you think that reguliar members are leaving MC, just wait until you see the numbers of "moderators" that will leave if this plan is put in effect.

I learned, some time ago, that the easiest answer to flamers is also the MOST effective. Just ignore them. I'm still amazed at the number of long time MC'ers that seem incapable of NOT RESPONDING to jerks. In my own case, there are two regular catters that, if I even see that they have posted on a thread of interest to me, I quit that thread. Notice that I did NOT say that I challenge them to some kind of a pissing contest, I just leave the thread.

I hope, given time, enough catters will catch on and those very offensive catters will find themselves locked in a room, all by themselves, pissing each other off.

In the meantime, I've got a LOT BETTER things to enjoy. CHREERS and THANKS to all. Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:45 PM

No problem Greg.

Its a vote

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Raedwulf
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:50 PM

Yes.

In principle.

In practice...

Who appointed you to ask, never mind decide?

So this'll be another pointless thread that you can respond to or ignore at your pleasure. Much like all the rest that the Clones rarely deign to take notice of, then? So it'll have what effect then?

Bugger all...

Yep, that's what I thought...

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:51 PM

*grin*...great, Ron Olesko...."I hate censorship..please delete this thread"

newt...if I don't 'get my way', I will still be here, and "pissin' & moanin'" will be the least of my concerns. I have opinions, and I sometimes state them.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,The Newt
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:56 PM

Ah Uncle BillD, please tell us more bedtime stories about the wicked guest witches. Did they lock them up in a Free Speech Zone tower at the edge of the political wilderness? Did they ever burn any of them? And did they eat them all up with barbeque sauce?

Please Uncle BillD, tell us ANOTHER wicked guest witch story! Please! Please!

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:02 PM

tsk..you see, Villan? They don't stop. Funny *I* should be flamed by a guest who is posting like I suggest, WITH a name.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: DougR
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:06 PM

No.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:10 PM

I'm pretty much in agreement with Bill D, 25 Aug 04 - 05:30 PM, but as he says, administration would be the problem. Probably best to leave things as they are, so I guess my vote is "no."

I've tried what I thought was "good natured banter" in response to being flamed, but I've come to the conclusion that it's counter-productive. Joe Offer was right in his notes to newcomers and it seems that it also holds for Mudcat vets as well:    ignore the flamers and the trolls.

Mudcat is too good a resource for all kinds of things, I like it here, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let the vermin drive me out.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:11 PM

No.

Villan, you are pure evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,The Newt
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:11 PM

Face it BillD. The guests have got you surrounded.

WE WILL WE WILL HAUNT YOU! WE WILL WE WILL TAUNT YOU!

You see, we've been through the desert on a horse with no name...

Oh, the maddening irony!

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:12 PM

NO TO CENSORSHIP IN ANY FORM!

If we censor "abusive" today, where do we stop?. Do we censor "obscene" tomorrow? How about "politically incorrect" next week? Surely there are some folks who would be delighted to see us censor "heretical", "sacriligious", or "contrary to the national interest". How about "not in line with proper vegetarian thinking", or "all posts that promote alcohol abuse"?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: khandu
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:12 PM

No

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:12 PM

I abstain.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:14 PM

No

Just boycott the posters who poison the place from time to time. Don't reply to them, don't acknowledge them, don't even read their posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:15 PM

Lynch me please, you lovable Mudcat mob you.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:17 PM

I know I can't vote, but can I be milk monitor?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:19 PM

"wait until you see the numbers of "moderators" that will leave if this plan is put in effect"

Sounds like a good reson to do it right there!

This place even HAS moderators?

Coulda fooled me....

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:23 PM

that was a good one, Guest! I vote YES to GUEST as official milk monitor.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:25 PM

No, just write on the blackboard, " I will not cause irritation and chafing to The Villan for the rest of my life." 500 times.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,The Newt
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:26 PM

Only if I get to be the sidewalk crossing guard, and carry the STOP flag, Guest 6:17.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:31 PM

I think that I will vote again.   Here in Chicago you can vote early and often.

So,

No.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:31 PM

No. I could support a milder solution, but the one proposed is too drastic. For instance, if you had proposed restrictions that apply only to BS threads, I could support that.

I would not support any system that did not allow guests to request lyrics or make comments about music.

I am concerned that people who post only to music threads won't even notice this thread, thus biasing your survey in favor of restrictions.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:31 PM

And again:

No

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:33 PM

NO

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:34 PM

At last I've got a name.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:35 PM

Are these really the only options? Then, no.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:36 PM

This is starting to look a lot like the Florida elections in 2000, isn't it?

I feel so...dispossessed. My vote won't be counted. Yet so many gather around screaming about it, just like in Florida.

To speak a Roddy Doyleism, I guess us guests are nothin' more than the Mudcat's niggers.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:36 PM

BillD said it very well: "'yes' to the concept
'no' to the details, which are much too complex to administer easily."

The devil is in the details.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:37 PM

No

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:38 PM

Villan, you are now losing big time.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,The Newt
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:39 PM

Congrats there, milk monitor! I've been using this one for a couple of threads now, and I have to admit it's growing on me.

Truth be told, I'm just waiting for one of the guest witches to turn me back to a regular cookie carrying member of the mob, so I can play burn the guest witch too.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:40 PM

Robbed! I've just realised I still don't get to vote. Someone chuck in a NO for me please.

Newt : no problem. The job's yours.

MG : sorry all out of chalk.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:41 PM

Well, as you can see, there are conflicting opinions. Some people want one thing, and some want the complete opposite. Seems like there's no way to keep everybody happy, but we try to keep a balance. What more can I say? We will continue to delete serious racism and personal attacks when we see them. We just can't play host to that sort of stuff.

It's still true that the very best way to deal with flames and abuse is to ignore them, to act as if offensive posts were invisible. That "discipline of silence" doesn't seem to happen around here as often as it should.

I would like Mudcat to be a gently, friendly place where people feel comfortable - and I'm deeply embarrassed when it's not. Right now, it sees that too many people around here just want to do battle. I'm sorry, but no amount of editorial work will change the essential spirit of things here. We do what we can to put out fires; but peace has to come from the community, not from some sort of editorial enforcement.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Cluin
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:42 PM

I think you're missing an opportunity here. Maybe you'd like to pole a few guests. It'd likely be quite painful for them and you'd get something out of your system.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:43 PM

I can't agree with these very different issues being lumped together, so no.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:50 PM

ummm...nice play on words there Cluin....I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: pdq
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:52 PM

The reason for abusive attacks is politics. One side believes they can shout down any origional or non-conforming opinions.
Those shouted down fight back or leave the forum.

Blaming the people who fight back is kinda like blaming a robery victim for pulling a gun.

If people would show discipline and not start invective-laden threads or post hateful attacks on people who are not here to defend themselves, the riot would slow down.

Somebody who has to say "I Hate Bush!" 20 times a day is someone with severe mental problems.

Say what you have to say . Say It once. Period.

I think each member, other than the one who started the thread sould post once. That means think out what you have to say, post, then move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:53 PM

Mr Villan Sir...Where I agree in principle to your suggestions being the right approach in "the ideal world", there are a number of reasons why it could not work. Policing(the number of postings on here is vast). administration....takes too much time to organise let alone put into practice. Too many of the "nasties" would not give up but likely play "hit and run" on a number of threads....usually one suspects as GUEST...these people will always try it on.
I would suggest that some are wasting too much time on flamers and trolls instead of getting on with the serious stuff.
Music is my chief reason for being on here..I read a lot and add to some threads but for extra recreation I come to the BS threads for a bit of fun.....My idea of fun does not always concur with others but there ya go...I still have my fun.
Principles are great but not always practical.
My vote is that we all abstain and get on with things as they are. We all have choices!
Best wishes

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: PoppaGator
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:59 PM

NO

No censorship, and no fretting about what you wish you hadn't read. What you don't like, please ignore. Shaddup already! (Both "sides.")

An absense of scolding responses, if we could manage it, might very well dissuade the flamers from fanning their fires.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:03 PM

Quis custodiat ipsos custodes

Anyway it isn't our call.

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:07 PM

Pdq, I feel the same way about invective-laden threads as I do about bin-laden threads.

Blow them up.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:08 PM

Its very interesting to see the differing viewpoints. I guess there is no easy solution.

Quote from Joe
It's still true that the very best way to deal with flames and abuse is to ignore them, to act as if offensive posts were invisible.
End of quote

I agree with Joe personally - by far the best way to deal with it, however some members can't seem to do that and get drawn in to the point where they can't stop.

So, I am going to go to bed and enjoy a good nights sleep :-) Hope you all do as well :-)

Thanks for all your viewpoints even though YES and No was all that was needed. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:15 PM

"Blaming the people who fight back is kinda like blaming a robery victim for pulling a gun."

Responding in kind to insults or hurtful remarks in a thread is in no way analogous to a situation where your life is being treatened. It merely requires some self-control. Sometimes quite a lot of self control.

But hitting back in kind is completely self-defeating. You aren't shooting them or hurting them in any way, you are actually rewarding the attacker, making them feel good. You are making them them feel they've got through to you, and been noticed, and that has to make them more likely to carry on in this way.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:21 PM

Must be time for a Mudcat therapy thread.

Come on now everyone, let's all join together for {{{{{{BIG HUGS}}}}}}

There now, don't we all feel better?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:26 PM

I am amending my response. To quote BillD: 'yes' to the concept
'no' to the details, which are much too complex to administer easily

just a requirement that 'guests' must choose a name, even if they don't register, would satisfy me.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:30 PM

Aw, thanks for the hug. Could you scratch my left shoulder blade a little while you're doing it?
Aaaaahhh!!!
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:38 PM

NO!

NO!

NO!

NO!

NO!

NO!

NO!

NO!

NO!

Leave the GUESTS out of this. There are more rude registered folks than rude GUESTS...

NO!

NO!

NO!

NO!

Censorship by any other name is still censorship. Heck, I'd rather go play somewhere else because of rude folks than because of censorship...

NO!

NO!

No, no, a thousand times no!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:42 PM

Bill D - I hope you realize I was being sarcastic with my "delete this thread" comment! I was just trying to point out that Mudcat enabled This Villian to start a thread like this. IF This Villian's wish came true, it would be very easy to have a thread like this removed.

Censorship, in any form, is wrong. What was suggested here is nothing more than censorship. Self-censorship is probably the most dangerous kind.

If you can't stand the heat, find another sandbox to play in.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Janie
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:59 PM

Uh....This would be an opinion poll as opposed to a vote. Mudcat is NOT a democracy.

But since you asked, my opinion is No!

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 08:09 PM

No

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 08:47 PM

yes, Ron..I have seen enough of your posts to realize you knew what you were posting...*smile*...I was sorta complementing the cleverness.

(I do still favor the sort of 'censorship' that removes personal attacks & stalking, spam, threats...etc.)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 09:14 PM

That's a pretty damn long list there, BillD. Are you afraid of the bogeyman too?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 10:51 PM

" Censorship, in any form, is wrong. "

Somer people are are so full of crap!

EVERYTHING is censored in some way or another....

When these people say NO Censorship, what they really mean is no one is to censor THEM...

What frigg'n ever...

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:58 AM

"When these people say NO Censorship, what they really mean is no one is to censor THEM... "

You do have a good point there Clinton...

I remember Lenny Bruce's routine on Police in Our Society. :-)

I am quite happy with removal of Spam, Porn, vindictive abuse, and some similar things (someone has to clean the shit off the floor in the toilets) - but willy nilly editing of anything else is a bit much.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 01:05 AM

Actually, we don't have a Vote...so I think I shall only be in the chat room for quite a while. Might read some threads, but doubt if I'll post to any. Sorry, I'm sick of it just now, but not much I can do. It comes in cycles. This is a bad one. See ya down the road sometime.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: jacqui.c
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 01:48 AM

No.

I hate to see the likes of Jerry leaving because of the behaviour of a few but don't really think that censorship is the way to go. IMHO the best way to deal with trolls and flamers is to ignore them. If you get a personal attack take a very deep breath and move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Cruiser
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 01:55 AM

Yes! No! Maybe...

(I'll coin this type of reply as "The Kerry Answer") Oh the days of the Kerry Answer, oh the days of the flip-flops too… Sung to the tune "The Kerry Dancers"

I finally guess I should say No! I think, even though I prefer required membership for all.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 02:00 AM

No

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: JennyO
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 02:42 AM

And a resounding NO for me too, for many reasons which I do not have time to go into here. Actually, my blood ran cold at the thought of some of those suggestions, and I could see us going down that slippery slope that Shambles talks about.

Joe Offer is right. We need to moderate ourselves, and for those of us who really can't, there is always the delete button. Mudcat has gone through bad periods like this before and recovered and it will again, but to implement those changes would take the heart out of it and it wouldn't be Mudcat any more.

Again - NO NO NO

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 03:10 AM

No

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: OldPossum
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 03:57 AM

No. I agree with Deckman.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Gervase
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 04:43 AM

No.
Most of the stuff that really gets on my chimes is posted by members, while guests often post useful stuff or questions that bring up some excellent answers and research.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: maggiethecat
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 04:55 AM

Whoops! I'm changing my vote!

I've read all the posts here and now vote "No".

Self censorship is always the best course of action. Maybe it isn't perfect and there will always be those who will test our resolve, but that's also a good test of character.

-maggie

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 05:48 AM

No

"When these people say NO Censorship, what they really mean is no one is to censor THEM... "

When people say YES to censorship, what they mean is - as long it is done to anyone but THEM...

We all have the only EDIT button that is required and if the Orang Utans are not fed - they will starve and be forced to find other feeding grounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 06:11 AM

No.

1) Virtually all abuse happens on BS threads. Guests, believe it or not, sometimes have worthwhile contributions in music threads.

2) Are you talking about Guest Larry K, or just Guest? Larry K should be able to post.

3) There's a very fine line between heated argument and abuse. I suspect the moderators will not want to step into that quagmire, nor do I blame them.

4) We can be, and to a large extent are, self-policing. I never use bad language and my estimation of a person goes down when they do--I believe it shows a poverty of vocabulary, and possibly of intellect. But though I'm against gutter language, this can be addressed by thread participants, and I do so. We're all adults here, some perhaps at arrested states of development, but we can handle this issue ourselves.

5) Anonymous" Guests" (no handle)----- (in my opinion in BS threads should be labelled "Ghosts"--perhaps this could be suggested)----- provide inadvertent humor by arguing with each other.



It's a wild and wooly forum and better for being that way. The old solution is still the best--if you don't want to read a thread, don't. There are lots of threads I never read. If people are leaving the forum, I'm sorry, but I can't believe it's the music threads. Music is the main focus of the forum, but in BS threads, politics, especially this year, will be a focus. Discussions are not always calm. Nobody need ever read a BS thread so nobody need ever be outraged.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 06:21 AM

Jim Dixon's post could have been mine.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: ard mhacha
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 06:32 AM

Villian, Charlton 3 Aston Villa 0, that result last night really was a no,no.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 06:46 AM

Oh the pain hurts :-)

My eyes have turned from Claret and Blue to red and white (or sort of bloodshot) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 07:13 AM

I've often wondered whether the compromise situation of having BS member only would be an improvement.

Overall though Guests have not managed to upset me but some members have hurt me very deeply. I broke the number 1 rule round here and even though I was completely honest in everything I said (although I don't think my methods were right on reflection), I got accused of all sorts, the best being a PM sent to Pip by Susan telling her what I was like - Pip could not believe what she had read and was so horrified she showed me.

I choose to post as a guest now not to be underhanded or to cause trouble - I try to be polite and construcive in whatever contributions I still make. Although there remain many people I have great respect for, I simply no longer want to be a Mudcatter as I don't belive in the double standards and 2 facedness that exist with some, probably few but vocal ones, within the ranks.

I didn't stop long at the Yorkshire gathering this year for similar reasons. I'd had a couple of people emailing me asking if I would attend and can't deny that having transported sorcha up there (the only reason for the journey) I did enjoy meeting Micca again, seeing Catsphiddle, etc.. I didn't want to stop there as I felt ultimately at some time my position would have been compromised, perhaps even by someone meaning well, in such a way that my options would have been either to "confess to telling lies" when I had at least had told the truth or stand ground on what I believe in the full knowledge that I would still therefore be considered a trouble maker and an enemy of Mudcat. It was much easier for me to be polite and enjoy the company for 30 minutes and walk out friends with those present.

When I put that sort of thing in the context of considering that plenty of places like uk.music.folk, rec.music.folk, rec.music.celtic and alt.banjo that I visit at least once a day, have no means of moderation yet never get close to the levels of nastiness achieved here, I do think one question that should be asked is whether or not some of the problems here rather than being Guest creations, are Mudcat creations.

Jon

(who will probably get attacked for this post by those who don't believe some things happen and prefer to live in a non-existant cosy land where everything is idyllic)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 07:26 AM

Another thing:

As I said, this is a wild and woolly forum. Some of the wildest stuff can also turn abusive. But there are all sorts of unexpected benefits. Abuse can be ignored by everybody and it will go away. But the situation calls forth, from time to time, absolute gems of humor.

Case in point: the recent thread "Never Mind Hell and Halifax"

Let me quote in full the glorious first posting:



GUEST, Disgusted of Portsmouth
"Never mind hell and Halifax, lord preserve us from the juvenile prurient drivel of the majority of the Hull contingent. I suggest that we start a third section just for residents of the Hull area, then we can all ignore it".

This person has such a flair for the language; the posting is so pithy. I laugh uproariously every time I see it again.

Why would anybody want to rein in a forum where such creativity is possible, or try to suppress the condition which caused this reaction?   Keep in mind this is a Guest.

Mudcat is probably a better source of humor than anything on television or radio, and it's largely because of its untamed nature.

Ignore Hull? I love reading their postings.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: fat B****rd
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 07:39 AM

NO

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 07:39 AM

I think if we remember that Hull Mudcatters mainly follow the rule "tong in cheek"

"Disgusted of Portsmouth" you are welcome to Hull anytime - we will educate you propa like yu no wat I mean

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Davetnova
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 07:48 AM

no

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Sooz
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 08:44 AM

No - I'll continue to be selective in what I read and even more so in what I respond to!

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 08:46 AM

yes, no, don't know, what do you think guest?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 09:49 AM

Perhaps, or perhaps not. Or maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 09:55 AM

LOL Make yer mind up guest or you will dissapear up your own backside soon :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 10:23 AM

Well, as you can see, there are conflicting opinions. Some people want one thing, and some want the complete opposite.

Hardly a strictly conducted poll and the answer rather depends on the question asked and no, this is not a democracy. However there is little point in the exercise if you are are going to ignore the result and place your own interpretion of what it means.

To date - I make it that the 'some' that answered YES was 5.
                                        the 'some' that answered NO was 37.

Pretty close run thing - I agree......

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 10:53 AM

Don't care.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 10:58 AM

There endeth the Poll. Well done the NO voters. It was democratic, so it is basically leave as is. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:07 AM

Villan,

as Shambles has remarked correctly it depends upon the question asked, so many who share your worries may have voted no nevertheless for a variety of reasons.

Had you asked for a vote for Jon's idea I would have voted 'yes'.
Had someone asked for a vote about BWL's position, I would have voted 'no'.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:44 AM

Villian - even if the numbers were reversed in the poll, that would not have changed anything.   As I said earlier, the fact that you were able to start and continue a thread like this proves how open this forum is. If there were Moderators as you suggested, a poll like this would have been deleted immediately.

I don't think people appreciate the freedom that we have here thanks to people like Joe and Max. They don't have to! They can easily make this as restricted as they like. I thank them for that.

I think some take the mantle of being a "Mudcatter" way too seriously. These posts are meant for fun. If some is really that upset by the postings they read here, they have bigger problems that seriously require help.   

If you don't like someone and leave, that is your choice.   You can't make this an exclusive country club, which is what the censorship would have created. Sure we would like a place to go where everyone gets along, but to create such a place eliminates many freedoms.

In everyday life we run across people who are just as nasty and abusive as the few that cause problems here. We can deal with it in various ways, including running away. We can also consider the source and make ourselves better for it.

Enough of my soapbox. I just had to get it off my chest. I'm glad Mudcat allows me the freedom to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:47 AM

LOL. As if you can declare a subject closed and ripe for analysis, here in Mudcat threads! A lot of Catters are not here daily, and before the thread falls off the daily list they may weigh in as well.

All this thread "proves" is that an inflammatory thread title can get a lot of quick action-- sometimes before people have actually thought about the topic!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:09 PM

As I said earlier, the fact that you were able to start and continue a thread like this proves how open this forum is. If there were Moderators as you suggested, a poll like this would have been deleted immediately.

Ron, there are volunteer moderators here, and reading between the lines a little - what Joe was saying in his post here was, as there are some for and some against - that he will carry on doing exactly what he wants to, which is what they would have done anyway.

I don't think people appreciate the freedom that we have here thanks to people like Joe and Max. They don't have to! They can easily make this as restricted as they like. I thank them for that.

The freedom that Max (the site owner) allows is certainly appreciated very much by me although many obviously do not agree. But he does deserve all of our thanks for creating this forum for us. As for Joe, (a volunteer) I feel that he is doing a pretty good job on his own of eroding that freedom....

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: wilco
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:12 PM

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: s&r
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:18 PM

100

No

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 01:24 PM

I agree with you Wolfgang :-)

What is very evident is that most members who have posted on this thread would like the abuse to stop, but without controls. Thats fine.

I can handle myself and do not get drawn into abusing anybody personally. I also use PM to try and sort a situation out before it gets out of hand. Invariably it is purely a simple misunderstanding. I always believe the good old simple :-) helps so much to show other members that you are not having a go.

However, can anybody come up with a good suggestion on how members can best protect people who are unfortunately getting abused through no fault of their own, as invariably they get sucked into the thread and quite often cannot compete against the proffessional abuser.

It is so sad to see good members leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 01:35 PM

NO- no to censorship

PS- it is a very interesting poll.   There are many people on either side of this issue who never agree with each other on any other topic. (Example- how often do Bobert and Doug R agree?)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 02:27 PM

...can anybody come up with a good suggestion on how members can best protect people who are unfortunately getting abused through no fault of their own

Perhaps a PM of support explaining why you're not launching in to the abuser on an open thread. That would greatly reduce the temptation for them to get sucked in. And it reduces the temptation to get sucked in yourself, which is probably a greater temptation for many people.

People don't actually need protecting so much as solidarity. And as for people who make a habit of abusing others, a boycott is probabaly more effective than a ban, and it doesn't need anyone's permission or approval.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,Old timer
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 02:36 PM

Last I heard, mudcat belonged to MAX. Get that???? Not some villan, but MAX. So your poll means nothing. This is up to MAX to decide and if you don't like what he does, go somewhere else.

Me? I'll stay with MAX.

And I won't miss a single one of you that voted Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 02:36 PM

Very good points MoH, and something I would support. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 02:53 PM

Nobody is blaming Max. So stop getting so heated Old Timer.:-)
Of course it is his website :-)

What is important is to stop people flaming and abusing. Have you got any good ideas, because they would be very welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,Blackcatter at work
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 02:57 PM

No.

My vote is with Max

Ironically enough, this has been one of the least flaming BS threads I've visited in quite some time.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 03:01 PM

I think something should be done about that!

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 03:11 PM

LMAO :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: dwditty
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 03:16 PM

Perhaps when the FCC is finished deciding how we should all feel about what Howard Stern says on air, they can come by here and tell us how we should all react to posts by guests, members, trollers, flamers, or people with a simple opinion. The rub is that what person A finds offensive, person B may not...and appointing who should decide is dicey at best. How I feel about someone's behavior doesn't seem very relevant to that person's right to be a jerk (lol). I guess I am just better at ignoring than others. Lucky me!

DW

btw...THIS IS a "no" VOTE.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,Blackcatter at work
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 03:20 PM

Exactly - for instance, I am not bothered by what Martin does or says.

Now don't take this the wrong way, MG - but to me, you're sort of the Don Rickles of the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 03:20 PM

Maybe if we can stop flaming and abusive behavior we can then try to solve world peace and global warming. I'm hoping we can wrap all this up by the weekend because I have plans.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 03:41 PM

LOL

I got to sort the Music Weekend at Market Rasen out now, so don't think I will be on too much to upset anybody over the weekend. :-)

I genuinly hope all of you mudcatters enjoy you Bank Holiday or weekend. :-)

May the sun shine warmly on all of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 04:06 PM

Blackcatter, what makes you say that, you hockey puck?

Political in-correctness couldn't have had a better ambassador.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 04:20 PM

Heh! Amusing stuff, as usual.

I vote No. Definitely and absolutely NO. Mudcat Cafe is like real life...unpredictable and full of variety. That's good.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Padre
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 04:31 PM

Yes

Padre

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 06:37 PM

Maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: kendall
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 07:39 PM

The world is full of things that something should be done about.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Leadfingers
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 08:17 PM

NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



If someone posts something you dont like either ignore it or send 'em a PM asking for clarification . DONT clutter the forum with Gratuitous abuse !

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,fred miller
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 09:02 PM

i'd say no if I wasn't too lazy to re-set my cookie.

Good article about Don Rickles in the New Yorker not long ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Blackcatter
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 01:21 AM

MG - because I felt like it.

So there.

All the whiners who complain about the flaming just don't get it. That's why I like your posts - you get it and at the same time piss off the idiots. You piss off non-idiots too, but hey, no one's perfect.

And beyond that, I don't give a damn.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 07:46 AM

The flamers and abusive posters are making fools of nobody but themselves and proving that they are at best bored and at worst unstable. Just look at them as Gilbert in "Mikado" would--"a source of innocent merriment". You can bet their only source of fun is if you respond to them in kind. You however can laugh at them. The key is not to take anything they say seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 07:54 AM

After all, I suspect some of their suggestions are anatomically impossible anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 08:09 AM

In complete, and total agreement with Bobert, I vote


NO.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 11:15 AM

Who cares - Jerry left because of the majority's attitude about abusive personalities in general. The same reason many of the original folks don't come back here and participate. There's some jerks here and the rest of the membership doesn't seem to much care about having the jerks personalities moderated a bit for civility.

I've seen folks berated, condemned, verbally abused, and a general lack of compassion for folks who were hurting. IMNSHO this place is only occasionally good for finding music. And not all that good for that. With a few notable exceptions.

Last bastion of free speech - last bastion of assholes that have no consequences for their verbal actions is much more like it.

As a person posting as a GUEST - what a freaking crock that word - I not only have no opinion on whether or not to moderate - if I did have one as a member it would make no difference to anyone anyway. So WTF over?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 11:33 AM

No.

Though said with sadness in the knowledge that good folk like Jerry might fall through the cracks for a while.

I still believe, and I have to- to keep my sanity, that people are capable of monitering themselves, and also capable of understanding that some people are either incapable of doing so, or unwilling.

There is no society that does not have it's sick and angry members, but I don't think they need also to be disenfranchised by the mudcat community.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 11:38 AM

YES, I would remove all non smoking types who live in Norf Lincolnshire!

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rasener
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 12:58 PM

But Super Ted, don't do that to me LOL :-)

Oh but hang on, I don't live in Norf Lincolnshire, I live in the Middle Lincolnshire.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,Blackcatter
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 03:12 PM

Yet again, GUEST 11:15 AM complained at how horrible the Mudcat is - yet the idiot won't leave.

If I get bad service in a restaurant, I complain. If I don't get reasonable satisfaction, I leave and never return. The day that Mudcat becomes a place that I don't like anymore, I'll leave. I'll likely not complain, since bad service at a restaurant is something I would hope a manager/owner woud want to correct. At Mudcat, it's a different thing.

I'm sorry other good people have left, but respectfully, I don't go into threads that I know will be annoying to me. When I do go into a thread and either read a bunch of crap, of get slammed for my ideas, I generally leave and don't come back to that thread.

The church I go to is filled with wonderful people. There are some, however, who I don't care for. I avoid them. If I wind up having to work with them, I do so for as short of time as is reasonable. I do the same here. And I am supportive of Max, Joe, Jeff, etc. It is their site and I'm not going to expect them to change it. I manage two sites of my own and I hear criticism all the time - some constructive, some not. I have changed things if someone has a good idea, but generally, I'm happy with my site and will usually delete most suggestions. No one is paying for the privilege of being at Mudcat (or my sites), so no one has a "right" to decide anything.

Anyone who claims that right is a non-entity to me. As are nearly all GUESTS.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 03:20 PM

So, did anyone tabulate the votes? Where is Diebold when ya really need it.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 03:21 PM

100 yes, 0 no, 5 Pat Robertson

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rasener
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 07:45 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Cruiser
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 08:05 PM

Pat must have prayed for those 5 votes. Let's see:

The Trinity = 3
Diebold=      2 bonus points for being an evangelical christian republican

Proof perfect that pray works.

A scientific poll (Creation Science)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 08:15 PM

Paying for votes is a time-honoured tradition. Used to cost a few beer; now, it costs a few supply contracts in Iraq. The happy campers figure the cost (some body bags containing kids) and some civilians will not be noticed enough to skew the vote. The White House houses filth. Let's not lose sight of that as the election draws closer. So, what will buy your vote?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 09:00 PM

I can buy paying for votes, but praying for votes is dirty pool. Not to worry, though. This site is programmed to ignore Pat Robertson votes.
So, hey, anybody want to bribe me?
Shambles?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,Tam the bam (nutter)
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 09:18 PM

I vote No.
I do not believe in any form of cencorship excuse the spelling, i have on occassion being writting terrble things on the mudcat, but the reason for that is because I get angry at some of the comments that some people write, but after I have read their comments I say that I am sorry.
I don't believe that anyone should be censored at any time free speech for all.

NO

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Blackcatter
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 09:58 PM

Come on Joe - for years I thought you, katlaughing, Art T. and WYSIWYG were the only honest folks here.


I could be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 10:51 PM

I dunno Blackcatter-- I AM from Chicago. We DO vote early and often. But no, I have not figured out how to make praying pay! Yet! :~)

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 02:26 AM

Les. Middle Lincolnshire sounds sort of "Lord of the Rings'ish" you know middle earth and all that. I think "Mid Lincolnshire" and proud of it also "Non-smoking" and proud of it ted!! When we travel...which we do often...we go to enjoy music..not to cause consternation by poisoning the lungs of those we go to see or perform for.
You 'ull lot are terrible.. They should deport you all to Dublin where the pubs are non smoking. LOL. Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 04:27 AM

No Joe I do not want to BRIBE you.

Are you then open to OFFER?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 05:38 AM

Whaddaya mean thought we were, Blackcatter? I am wounded to the core to think you've changed your mind about our honesty!**bg**

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Devilmaster
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 03:00 PM

Just wanted to add my opinion and say no.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Blackcatter
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 05:51 PM

Mea culpa, my dear kat.

My trust in human nature does have bounds. I will trust you and the rest (and actually, that list should be longer) about as far as anyone I know, but if I feel a sharp pain in my posterior, I'm going to check to see if I'm getting screwed. . .

From one cat to another - meow.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Bernard
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 10:14 PM

YES

I used to spend a lot more time on Mudcat than I do these days... I don't agree with censorship, but I do agree that mindless thuggery is morally wrong.

The difficulty is deciding where to draw the line, and who is to draw it...

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: pdq
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 10:29 PM

Shambles - you must make it an Offer he can't refuse!

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 12:32 AM

Yeah, Blackcatter, we're honest - nobody's offered us a penny yet.
...and they're not likely to.
-"Honest" Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 01:22 AM

Just a little reminder of what you have all voted to accept--and thanks and a tip of the hat to Martin Gibson---


Subject: RE: BS: Supermarkets destroying Communities
From: Martin Gibson - PM
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 06:12 PM

You are both girlie men.

You Ron Davies and fool troupe, are about as intellectual as roadkill. You both wouldn't last in a high school debate or on a mean city street.

As for my musical ability, you both prove to be completely ignorant as this is just a typical example of making your pompous assumptions on not knowing all of the facts.

ie. You have not heard me play or sing over the last 40 or so years.

You fools troupe display all of the maturity of a sad, bitter old man, set in your ways. You are so removed from your youthfulness, that you can only think inside your own very small box. It's the type of maturity that allows me to use shit language on you full knowing that it DOES yank your chain and will get to show how easily it is that you offend in all of your political correctness.

It's pretty entertaining.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 02:16 AM

Just a little reminder of what you have all voted to accept--and thanks and a tip of the hat to Martin Gibson---

The question(s) were not if we like vandalism - but we all would be foolish not to accept it as a sad fact. Accepting what you have no power over (the postings of others') is a good start to at least ensure that we all do not become vandals.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 02:55 AM

Thanks, MTed, for the reminder of why I voted "yes."

Blackcatter...I feel a sharp pain in my posterior, I'm going to check to see if I'm getting screwed. . . could it be just a claw and not a screwing? *g*

I'll see yer "meow" and raise you one phit of a hissy.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: JennyO
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 07:32 AM

And thank YOU Shambles, for a reminder of why I voted NO. I'm with Shambles on this one!

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 08:53 AM

"Yet again, GUEST 11:15 AM complained at how horrible the Mudcat is - yet the idiot won't leave"

Well shucky darns boy. I forgot to put my "name" up there. Idiot? You're the idiot. You are typical of many here who simply believe they are the ones with the only valid answers. I know I have no "valid" answers - but facts speak for themselves. And if you can't speak to the facts then I would encourage you to ignore your own poll. What I posted to was facts.

It's like the law. Does the law prevent law beakers? No. But the POSSIBILITY of paying a price for abherent behavior keeps those on the margins within the parameters of normal. And there are very few parameters of normal here.

An example: A few years ago I got into an argument with some of the more "colorful" characters on this forum. Was told I should have been sterilized at birth. I didn't respond very well and a bunch of my Marine Brothers came over and raised cain for a day on the board. What a bunch of whining from the status quo here about that.

I'll admit I most likely should not have done that. Came back and apologized for it a while back too. But of those involved in that diatribe I was the only one who apologized. The rest of the folks that were as ignorant, or worse than I, continued to be idiots and self-sanctified that they had done no wrong. Therefore no apologies for their behavior.

Far as I am concerned it's no biggy anymore. But it still typifies the behavior.

Compassion is a trait that is not well represented here. Once again that is my opinion only. I would not post here about personal loss, national tragedy, or anything that would be in need of folks to empathise with the situation. Some folks here would start to be there and caring - then the rest of the, let me quote you here, "idiots" would make it so miserable for the poster and the problems that they were struggling with would be better off going to KKK rally advocating for black membership. (That's an analogy for us idiots that don't speak real well)

And this thread is as good an example of that trait on Mudcat as any.

So as to your poll. It's a useless excuse to beat others, GUESTs included, for what doesn't fit with your idea of what should be.

My name is Steve Neff, my handle is Norton1, and if you want to talk to me PM me and I'll give you my phone number. Though I doubt that a direct communication is of any more importance to you than anyone else who hides here and villifies others for what they say. Even though the poll suggests that no one wants to have their behavior monitored/modified from an external rationale. Might infringe on their ability to be assholes from time to time.

And let me be clear that I am one of those that has exceeded the bondaries on occasion. No matter how well provoked by others. Made my apoloiges for that - I screw up I will apologize.

Oh yeah - watch the crap now - right after I was told I should have been sterilized at birth our 19 year old son put a rifle under his chin and shot himself to death. Try holding the hand of one of your kids as the life leaks out of him. I thought of a lot of things I'd done wrong in my life. Maybe they, the villifiers, knew more than I did about the future. But I can assure you the folks involved in that little mess had nothing to do with the loss of our son. But it sure put their aversive behavior in perspective for me.

So post away GUEST:Blackcatter. Pretty funny - GUEST condemns GUEST - it still does not mean a darn thing. And really good folks like Jerry, Spaw, and a few others that made the board fun and sincere appear to not agree with you in fact - but I'll bet in principle their simple good hearted nature could no longer tolerate folks of your ilk that advocate change for a nicer board and in that same thread bash others.

Be well and God Bless -
Steve "Norton1" Neff

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 09:18 AM

I assume you were being sarcastic with that "tip of the hat and thanks", M.Ted, (it can be hard to tell sometimes), and critical of those who said go easy on the censorship round here.

But the point is, when there's a name on a post, and it hapens to be one of a very small numnber of posters, it's easy enough to just skip them unread. If some people choose to read them and respond to them, that's their lookout.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Blackcatter
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 10:04 AM

dear Steve "Norton1" Neff

Why do you persisit in visiting the Mudcat even though, you are clearly not happy here. Is it a streak of masochism or something? I'd really like to know. This is a question to which I've never heard an answer. Please enlighten us all.

As for me posting as a guest, I only do that while I'm at work, as my boss does not want cookies on his computers. When I post as a guest, I always sign it as Blackcatter.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 10:11 AM

Blackcatter,

I think that a problem is that anyone can sign on as GUEST,Blackcatter, so noone really can be sure it is you posting.

Perhaps Steve "Norton1" has an interest in folk or tradtional music, and finds the Mudcat to be of some use. Why do any of us visit here? For information, discussion, friendships, and out of masochism, I would think.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 10:21 AM

Steve--

I'm asking as a friend and a sister-- please, don't continue this here. I'd love to hear from you offthread.

~Susan
[e-mail]
(Put MUDCAT in the subject line to pass the spam filters)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 10:22 AM

Steve, if I said anything hurtful, I apologise. I think I did that already, though. What you did HURT. Getting pissed off at what people say isn't an excuse to hurt others though. Not for anybody. Compassion allows for forgiveness of the occasional times it happens though. It allows a bit of flexibility.

Martin Gibson is an entirely different animal. Look at his post above and realize 2 things: 1) he doesn't know enough about the subject of the thread to discus THAT, and 2) his insults are so general they could be aimed at anybody (and usually are - they're re-used over and over.) They AREN'T PERSONAL.

I'm not sure which bothers me more: people working a little to hard to offend others, or people working a little to hard to find reasons to be offended.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why people would CHOOSE to get upset by somebody lobbing generic, one-size-fits-all insults at them. It's just background noise. You talk to somebody with the verbal form of Tourette's, and you learn to ignore the stuff that doesn't fit the conversation, and listen for the person's message, because the other stuff just doesn't matter. As to intentional insults, I don't think the intent matters very much. It's what you want to listen for, and what you want to talk about.

Maybe one thing you should try before asking for intervention is to ignore the knot-in-your-shorts factor and just stick to the subject at hand. Just try it for a bit, and see if it works. What you're voting for is basically censoring replies, because the initial insult is a minor blip. You plan on writing these and hope that the admins clean up after you. It's not easy, avoiding that 'Submit' button sometimes, but the most sensible thing to do is not trash the joint in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 11:03 AM

Steve, I apologise, too, for anything which might have offended you. I reached out by email after you left, but received no reply. Now I understand why that may have been so.

I am sorry for your loss and that you didn't feel you could come to Mudcat for solace. There has been plenty of compassion here, through the five six years I've been here and it continues, maybe in a smaller fashion and not as much as some of us would like, but you can see a current example of it in this thread and I would refer anyone who wants further examples to put "Animaterra" or "NightOwl" in the thread title search and read the words of comfort.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 02:15 PM

I think the compassion's still here, too. I just gets hard to find in the midst of all the bickering. You start a thread about being afraid for your daughter, and it winds up being a flame-fest on the war in general, because that's what some people may really want to discuss...or know how to discuss. It's the 'rut' they like to be in, and nobody ever challenges them for it. It seems impossible to drag discussions back from the generalities of peoples 'hot buttons' to the specific feelings of one person. People on soap-boxes are usually a lot louder and more persistent than others. I don't think human feelings matter to a bunch of people. For some of us, they do, and we're still here too.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 07:40 PM

"...nobody ever challenges them for it."

My impression is that a main problem is that people often do challenge or respond to hecklers, when it might be better just ignore to them.

Pulling a thread back to a specific aspect is tricky verging on the impossible - one way would be to start a new thread, and post a link to it in the thread that has drifted off into other areas, with an explanation. And maybe supplement this with PMs to any people on the original thread who have shown they were interested in that aspect of the discussion, alerting them to the new thread (because quite likely they might have stopped reading the old one.)

That's more or less the way we do things in ordinary life - if a general discussion veers off somewhere away from what you are especially concerned about, you are likely to find yourself carrying on the original conversation with a couple of people who are interested in the same aspect as you are. You wouldn't go thumping the table and calling the meeting to order, unless it was a formal meeting. And threads here aren't formal meetings.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 02:33 AM

It's like the law. Does the law prevent law beakers? No. But the POSSIBILITY of paying a price for abherent behavior keeps those on the margins within the parameters of normal. And there are very few parameters of normal here.

That brings us back to the routine imposition of editing action. This one measure (over used) agaist the 'vandals' is only a punishment. For it has little effect as a deterrent to these 'vandals', for it is done with such a fuss as to bring the attention that is so craved by them and is the main reason for their postings.

The clumsy, lazy and offensive deltion of entire threads, (by our volunteers) containing positive contributions as well as the less positve - is just punishing everyone for the crimes of a few. In the process, precious freedoms are gradually being eroded and folk encouraged to judge the worth of each other's contributions and to think that there is some other solution - than self moderation and simply ignoring the spoilt children's attention seeking tantrums and ploys.

Perhaps had this common sense suggestion which has been made by many posters, over and over again - been encouraged by our volunteers - things would not be so bad that long- term posters, like Art and Jerry feel they have to stop posting?

Perhaps the encouragement and the example of how to post positively and not respond in kind to our 'vandals', can now be set by all our volunteers as the main solution to our problems here? And the routine and reactive imposition of editing action is not now and in the future encouraged as the only measure - but only ever used sparingly as the last possible resort and the limitations and counter-productivity of this action finally accepted?

Yes it would be OK if 'pains in the arse' like me did not complain every time our volunteers impose editing action - but it will reamin a fact that many do and (I hope) always will continue to strive to protect the very freedoms that are thought by some to be expendable.....

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 04:35 AM

Re: the post above directed at me and Robin from courageous "Martin Gibson" (who refuses to give his own name)

Don't worry about me and Robin. As I pointed out earlier, people who use absurdly stupid filthy language to attack others ("Martin Gibson", to pick a purely theoretical example), are making fools of nobody but themselves.

We can handle the problem easily and defend ourselves. In fact "Martin Gibson" is a pathetic opponent in debate.

We need no censorship.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 05:56 AM

We may not need to have censorship imposed upon us, but we do need to impose it on ourselves.

The post referred to was posted here as an example and as most people have or would have ignored it - it could perhaps have safely just been left to be seen as an example?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 06:02 AM

So how do you propose to impose it on "Martin Gibson?" Look, it's not by a long shot the most burning issue in the world, so "Let It Be". Let's tackle something more significant.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 06:30 AM

So how do you propose to impose it on "Martin Gibson?" Look, it's not by a long shot the most burning issue in the world, so "Let It Be". Let's tackle something more significant.

Ron - the point is that no one is imposing anything one anyone here, apart perhaps our clones, that is. Nor does anyone have to impose anything on anyone else here do they? The concept is called freedom of expression and many do consider it to be one, if not the most burning and significant issues in the world.

"Imagine" - "All You Need Is Love".

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 10:48 AM

Enlighten you Blackcatter - I'm most likely not the one to attempt that but will do so at your request.

1) I've been a wandering minstrel for 30+ years. Have a large extended family of musicians, I'm not a pro, not even that good a picker, and some of the musicians are folks on this forum whom I have made music with.

2) I've a not so good memory and when I need words I can find them here.

3) I like helping people - it's what I do for a living - and have found opportunities to pay back this community with money, time, and some knowledge.

4) Because I want to.

If that answers your question - awesome. If not - well I reckon life will continue in all of its magnificent beauty.

As far as why I posted to this thread in the first place? Because I have often thought of the cat as one of the last free speech bastions. I don't always like what I read but I enjoy the freedome to read and post. Usually with some form of socially normative behavior pattern.

Far as this thread, and your response to it, the rules were that GUEST's opinions didn't count. And you posted as GUEST:Blackcatter. I don't care which name you put behind GUEST, or the rationale for it, you're still a GUEST. Heck I could have posted this response as you.

I'm sorry my IQ doesn't make me a human in your eyes. But it don't mean nothin Bro - and your calling me "idiot" makes you no better than the other flamers. I believe it is called hypocrisy. And were it I, I'd think about apologizing - but what are the odds of that happening?

My last words on the subject - Thanks Susan -

Be well and God Bless
Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 12:29 PM

So how do you propose to impose it on "***?"

Easy.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 01:35 PM

Martin Gibson is not the only person on here who causes a "stir" but so many people give Martin the "credibility he deserves". He earns all the attention he gets......If you don't like it, ignore it please. Don't spend your time on here griping about what others are doing...just give opinions and ignore anything you don't like. You are capable of imposing you own censorship...you have choices.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 03:10 PM

Which sort do you like then :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: BaldEagle2
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 03:38 PM

Ah - we all have choices, but the most cherished "right" we seem to give ourselves is a core belief that goes on the lines of "If I don't approve of something, then you must not do it".    (Jeeze, we even have a teenage girl out here who wants to have all circuses banned on the grounds she read somewhere that a circus animal had once been mistreated: she disapproves, therefore none of us must go to a circus again.   You get the drift.)

On this site we appear to have two schools of thought: on one side "I disapprove of censorship, therefore you must let me say whatever I like", and on the other "I disapprove of inappropriate language, therefore you must not say anything that I deem to be inappropriate".

The problem, I think, is that both sides are right.   And then again, both sides are wrong.

Is there no limit to what may be said under the concept of freedom of speech? Well, in law, ethics and simple peer pressure there are limits.   Pedeophiles are not allowed to make recruiting speeches outside kindergartens, and neo-Nazis are not allowed to disrupt synagoge services by chanting obscenities at those attending.   The rights of citizens to quiet congregation sometimes over rules the rights of others to make noise.

On the other hand, to prevent honest discourse, purely on the grounds that you do not like the language being used, is extremely hard to defend. And will, in my view, inevitably lead to the worst excesses of political correctness.   (I once worked on a site where the dress code actually contained the clause "On dress down days, jeans may be worn provided that they are nice".   Honest.   Oh boy, did the cube police there have fun and games at the expense of the rest)

But sometimes the Freedom-Of-Speech brigade offer the viewpoint that "if you don't like what is being said on this site, then go somewhere else".   This must be spurious - for those proponents will repeat the same theme at every other site: until the goers away have nowhere left to go to. I do not think that would be a satisfactory outcome.

If that is true, then the same logic dictates that the Freedom-Of-Speech Brigade should not be given their marching orders, as well.

It looks as we have a debate here that is the chat room equivalent of the abortion wars.   Both sides, knowing that they are right, will go to extraordinary lengths to show that the other side is wrong.   And there is no middle ground: a partial abortion would not satisfy either faction.

I think that our volunteers are in the unwholesome position of being required to perform partial abortions on our threads.   And neither side can be satisfied.   One day, with impunity, the howling morons insult all and sundry for no apparent reason, and on another day sensible chat goes down the drain because the plug is pulled when the flames became a tad too high.

Should mudchat have moderators, or should we advocate total freedom of speech regardless of what may then be said? Perhaps that should be in accord with the wishes of the majority, but again, perhaps not.

How about adopting an additional pre-fix to the subject line of threads: say, "UM" for an unmoderated thread, and "MOD" for a moderated one.   That way, the freethinkers could have their UM threads and scream and rant and swear to their hearts content.   Those who do not want to listen could stay away, having been suitably warned.

Likewise, if you go to a MOD thread, and use offensive language, then it would be no surprise to you if your contribution was to vanish sometime soon after you posted it.

Just a thought.   And it would introduce a requirement that the moderators could kill a single contribution to a thread - is that technically possible?

But, I implore you, which ever side you place yourself, always remember: every single joke ever cracked, that was funny, had in it the power to offend someone somewhere.    Don't lets make humor illegal at MudCat.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 03:51 PM

For a MOD thread, what specifically is offensive language?

You know there are some nuns out there who think "damn" or "hell" is the worst thing there is.

You can't do it. You can't draw the line where YOU think the line should be. Calling someone a used tampon is not swearing. True, it might offend someone, but calling someone a roll of toilet paper might also.

Again, this can't work, because it is still imposing someone's definition of the world according to someone.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: BaldEagle2
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 04:35 PM

If it is indeed impossible to have a polite conversation because others insist on their right to be potty mouthed fascists, then you are correct Martin - those who prefer not to hear such nastiness must go away and leave this place to you and your ilk.   If that is our only defence against listening to the indefensible, then so be it.

Before we go, could you please defend the right of a pedeophile to orate a recruiting speech at a children's playground. Then perhaps we can see what we would be missing in your wonderful world of "a person's right to say what they want outweighs ALL other considerations".

(oh - could you point us to some sites you will never visit, so that we won't upset you again.   Thanks.)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 04:48 PM

I think a poll here is unecessary because those who indulge in flaming have
forfeited their credibility as reasonable people and as a result their point-of-view is marred by their anger.

They can be easilly passed over in favor of those who want to have a legitimate discussion.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 05:25 PM

Your arguement sucks, baldeagle2. Defending the right of a pedophile has nothing at all to do what goes on here. I wouldn't defend it either and I agree with you about that, so there. Now what. Every thing here with all of the "what if" spouting that goes on is purely situational and is very little but opinion. You win this week's top bullshit award for thinking otherwise.

I'm going to be wherever you go, me and my "ilk." for your "ilk" there is no escape, nowhere to hide in your own little Utopia.

You can run but you can't hide from the people who think different from you, the ones who are having fun, and the ones who take all of the "what if" philosophies for what they are. Mostly a crock that has little effect on anything.

Guest Frank. Wrong. Credibility can change on a day to day basis and is purely situational. It plays out here daily and really has nothing to do with anger. Keep flailing.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 05:36 PM

those who prefer not to hear such nastiness must go away and leave this place to you and your ilk.

Fortunately that isn't so, since there's no sound track here. All that's needed is to spot the name and skip the post.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 05:45 PM

It actually works for me, too.

Certain posters read like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. "What if blah, blah, blah blah"

I don't read everything here. Especially posters who are presidents of their own fan club.

this is your brain.

This is your brain on Mudcat wannabee intellectuals. complete mush.

"But what if that mush.............................. blah, blah, blah"

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: BaldEagle2
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 05:48 PM

Martin - Calm down.    You seem to be getting over-heated.   Again.    I promise I will never, ever call you a used tampon. Honest - you have my word on it.

To do so would suggest that you have had initimate knowledge of the female body on at least two occasions (the first when you were born), that a female who had reached puberty had found you useful on a least one occasion, and it would also be a dreadful slur on all the genuine used tampons out there.

And nor "a roll of toilet paper".   Come on, boy, everyone but everyone has some use for a roll of toilet paper.   Really.

(Come to think of it, when did the right to call people names become part of the right to freedom of speech?    Must have snuck in when the rest of us where looking the other way.   Perhaps we can add it to it the pedeophile's right to recruit and junk this one as well.)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 05:51 PM

On this site we appear to have two schools of thought: on one side "I disapprove of censorship, therefore you must let me say whatever I like", and on the other "I disapprove of inappropriate language, therefore you must not say anything that I deem to be inappropriate".

No there is another school of thought that is simply saying that they accept that they do not have any control over the postings of others. They do not wish to have this control nor for anyone else to impose it on their behalf. That they have all the editing tools they require.

That whilst accepting they do not have any right over the postings of others, that their wish would be for others to respect their position. And not to respond in kind or in any way to those whose approach to this freedom is to vandalise and whose actions encourage others to believe that they should have judgement and control over the postings of others and who will in the name of this, erode these precious freedoms.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: BaldEagle2
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 06:11 PM

Shambles, really.   That your third point of view matches exactly the "No Censorship!!! Goddammit!" school of thought is merely one of semantics?   I expected better of you.   Never mind.

Right.   If a group of people really wish to have a moderated discussion, am I correct in thinking that you would deny them any means to do so?   No matter how many, and for what reason?   You would deny them such a forum.

Because it is wrong for people to deny others the right of expression?    And any code of conduct that allows "offensive" material to be removed, is such a denial.

So, in this brave new world, no group shall agree a code of conduct between themselves, for it could be politically uncorrect on any stranger who barges in on them.   (Am I really getting this right?)

And if you arrive unannounced and unwanted, and you wish to make a recruiting pitch for pedeophiles, I not only have to let you have your say, I must leave your diatribe intact for evermore in case someone else wishes to read it? You ask of me, sir, more than you will grant unto me.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 07:46 PM

So, Martin, what do you think we should do about you? You've managed to annoy almost everyone by now, and I think you've become tedious. What is it you want?

You seem to be reasonably intelligent. Wouldn't you get more pleasure out of making an intelligent contribution to the Forum?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 07:58 PM

But getting a lot of attention...

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 09:51 PM

Well, Joe. I only think that's what it might look like on the surface.

I believe I have made some intelligent contributions to the forum, have tried to be helpful with my extreme knowledge of American country music and guitars above the border. Below the border, it is truly amazing how many posts have followed mine starting off "I actually agree with Martin Gibson on____________." I do get plenty of PMs telling me they enjoy what I write and how I lay it out without pulling no punches. Many have revelled in some of the things I have said to some people.

I have made some pretty interesting acquaintances here.

I don't really know what you want to do about me, Joe. Is it better to come in like many regulars have obviously done as "guests" to insult my wife and family? Or that it gives them the right as "guests" to give me an anti-semetic slam?

I have posted consistently as Martin Gibson. I have made some mistakes like most everyone here. I have also said some things that I would say again in a New York minute. My politics are not typical middle aged folksinger. So what? Why don't we all just talk about Barney the Dinosaur?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 10:16 PM

That your third point of view matches exactly the "No Censorship!!! Goddammit!" school of thought is merely one of semantics?

Words are all we have. Yes I may not like censorship but the reason and words I gave for this were not the ones you stated. I value the scary concept of the freedom for others to be able to say what they wish and the freedom for me to agree, disagree or to ignore it

Right.   If a group of people really wish to have a moderated discussion, am I correct in thinking that you would deny them any means to do so?   No matter how many, and for what reason?   You would deny them such a forum.

Why on earth would you deduce from what I have said, that I would want to deny anybody this? If others choose or prefer to post to such a forum - what right would I have to deny them the freedom to do this? As long as I or others clearly knew this to be the case in advance - we have the freedom to join or not to join this forum.

Because it is wrong for people to deny others the right of expression? And any code of conduct that allows "offensive" material to be removed, is such a denial.

Wrong it may be but it less a matter of judgement and principle than one of practical reality. Who judges this and what good does this reactive measure do but to bring attention to the very material that has already done its 'damage'?

So, in this brave new world, no group shall agree a code of conduct between themselves, for it could be politically uncorrect on any stranger who barges in on them.   (Am I really getting this right?)

No far from it. It is just such a code of conduct that the vast majority of posters here do try to follow and an example that any stranger can easily follow. Sadly the less positive example of judgement of the worth of each other's postings and requesting editing action based on that judgement being imposed, is currently being set.

And if you arrive unannounced and unwanted, and you wish to make a recruiting pitch for pedeophiles, I not only have to let you have your say, I must leave your diatribe intact for evermore in case someone else wishes to read it? You ask of me, sir, more than you will grant unto me.

This is a music forum which has a place that in theory practically anything can be placed there. Why anyone would wish to make recruiting pitch for pedeophiles here is unclear and I for one would not wish to see or encourage such things to be posted here. If it were, I am sure such a thread would have many posts that would make it perfectly clear what most people thought.

But should it happen - as I have said, the damage has largely been done. Do you then leave it and other equally offensive material in place? Probably not but where are those arguing for this material to be given a permanent home here, when there are so many online places for it? Some could argue that there is a right to post such stuff - it would not seem right to me, to post it here. When it is clear that you are talking only of damage limitation by reactive editing action - are the risks of censorship really worth all the resulting problems?

I won't post such stuff and I would not open a thread which made it clear what it contained and if I came across it, I would quickly move on. I suspect that most folk here would do the same, if it were to be left in place. However, without all the fuss and bringing shocked attention to something posted here, that we would simply ignore elsewhere online, it would fall off the bottom of the page and soon be forgotten. Perhaps that is the best way to deal with such things here?

But this remains a moderated forum. I am just trying to ensure that we do not get even more and the baby does not get thrown out with the current bathwater. My point really is that imposed editing is not currently limited to just these out of place contributions that not many would argue to keep. Under the cover of this - editing action is routinely imposed upon postings that are not these obvious candidates for reactive deletion. For example, entire threads are deleted because our volunteers cannot be bothered to make a distinction between the 'offensive' posts and the rest. Censorship does over time tend to lead the censor to generally devalue all contributions.

Censorship is a difficult and delicate matter. All I expect is that enough care is taken here to ensure that nothing that should not be deleted is lost. If it were up to me and it came to a stark choice between ensuring this at the expense of leaving in place the sort of offensive material you refer to - I would choose no censorship at all but would make it clear to all contributors in advance that this was the case.

A lot of the trouble here comes from the fact that many have been posting for many years under the impression that there is no censorship and this is an un-moderated fourum. Sadly it is neither fish nor foul and this is not really made very clear when folk start to post.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 10:24 PM

Oh, come on,
people--we can all take it--I sure can.

I treat "Martin Gibson"s gems with all the respect they deserve, and no more.


Between Georgiansilver 30 Aug 04 1:35 and Villan 30 Aug 04 3:10 there were several posts directed at me by "Martin Gibson". They have now been deleted but I can tell where they were, because of what Villan said.

I was all ready to respond, and even though the posts are now missing, including one which called me "one of the most dangerous people on the network", due to alleged political correctness (truly absurd, since I actually was calling for no censorship, as anyone with a brain and an eye can see from my posts below).

At any rate, I'm disappointed "Martin"s posts have disappeared, since he was making himself even more of a laughingstock than usual, and he sets a high standard in that regard.


So without any further ado, here's my answer to the "one of the most dangerous" post, since deleted:


I'm touched and honored that "Martin" has named me "one of the most dangerous people" on the forum. Gosh, I don't know what to say. I'd like to thank my parents, my teachers, everyone who helped me along the way, and not least, "Martin Gibson" (THUNDEROUS APPLAUSE), who believed in me when no one else did (SNURF, BLUBBER) for making this day possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Teresa
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 10:28 PM

Every other forum I frequent requires membership and has moderators. There is much less abuse on these fora.

Yes to requiring membership for guests. (Provided that all membership requires is a username and password.) No to everything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 10:49 PM

That's what I mean, Martin. You have a lot to say that's valuable. It's the combative stuff that doesn't work here. We need a certain amount of civil behavior for this place to function as a forum of ideas. The name calling and insults distract from all that, and result in chaos instead of discussion.

I think it's safe to say that every insult posted posted on the Internet is multiplied tenfold by the recipient, who then magnifies and returns the insult. Then the whole thing stops being fun.

That's why I deleted Martin's insults before Ron got a chance to respond and continue the cycle. It has nothing to do with obscenity or foul language or any of that prudish stuff - animosity is the problem. I'd really rather not have to waste my time deleting any of this nonsense, but the atmosphere has been downright nasty around here lately.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 11:37 PM

Ahhh....makes me feel good....like a good scratch...on an out-of-the-way-spot....on one's back.

Keep It Up folkies....the itch continues.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

all other of "my boards" have learned...this continues to be fun, fun, fun until the evening is done.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 04:14 AM

Joe--

Hoping to avoid a locker room atmosphere ( since I had seen several threads deteriorate into this) and thereby perhaps hear from some more women on the topic, since they, understandably are not fond of such language), I did ask all participants on the thread I started (To Nader Supporters), to voluntarily forswear vulgar language so we could have a relatively intellectual debate on the issue. All complied except "Martin". Obviously having no power over him but the possibility of shaming him into this reasonable request, I ridiculed him (not difficult).

Was my request to avoid vulgarisms not reasonable?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 05:01 AM

Certainly, a request to avoid vulgarisms is reasonable, Ron. So is my request that we avoid mortal combat.

But does anybody listen to me????

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 06:19 AM

But does anybody listen to me????
-Joe Offer-

You seem to think that they should but why should anyone listen to your views any more than they listen those of mine or of any other poster? Are we not all posting as equals?

No, they may not listen to you or accept your views and judgement and there is a good reason for this. However, many do (sadly) follow the example that you set. If you post to judge the worth of others, respond in the same kind of language to the 'vandals' and feel you have the right to make personal attacks (often in return for those you feel are made against you)- other posters will follow the example you set......

If this is an example of 'don't do as I do - but do as I say' - this is hardly the most positive example to set for others to follow - is it? In fact it is a red rag to many bulls.

You seem to feel that you and your volunteers are entitled to additional rights but if so, the trade-off for this is additional responsibility. Joe if you and your volunteers, set a different, more positive and consistent example, folk may follow that also.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: jacqui.c
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 06:52 AM

I don't like to see gratuitous rudeness and aggressiveness both of which have been evident in the last few months. I find it difficult to see why, if one person doesn't agree with another's view, there should be such animosity.

I'm no prude - I've done bar work in London pubs and do not get easily offended by ripe language. What does offend me is the unwarranted personal attack that has resulted from my putting my own point of view on a thread. As a very good friend of mine has said - there are no wrong opinions - and I resent anyone else using bullying tactics of any kind when they don't agree with me. This puts me off of contributing to threads, particularly when I can see that certain names are regularly coming up on that thread.

I would hate to see any form of censorship and I do my best to overlook any personal attacks on me, but it does get difficult to stay quiet sometimes.

I just wonder why these posters have so much difficulty in joining in a civilised debate!

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 07:35 AM

I just wonder why these posters have so much difficulty in joining in a civilised debate!

I don't think it's so much that they find it difficult, I think that they just don't want to. I suspect that there are people for whom the idea that people who disagree with each other should express their differences without making personal attacks is seen as an offensive idea - hypocritical, dishonest, lacking in spontaneity, that kind of thing.

If you think that way I suppose it could give rise to a wish to break things up, and a feeling that that is a righteous thing to do. In a way it's a kind of iconoclasm. The very term "civilised debate" could be like a red rag to a bull. In a china shop.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:42 AM

They don't even 'express their differences', McGrath. I don't think they're capable of it. I don't think they understand it, or why other people argue about topics, or see them as relatively clueless when they can't. It's not something they ever learned how to do, and likely will learn. Not as long as they think the shock value scores points. Listen, the shock value, should be (one would think) nonexistant by now. Then again, I'm usually more easily bored than a lot of people. It's the attention span thing.

I'd like to have the right to use vulgar language. I save it for when I'm really pissed off, just so people can tell I'm really pissed off.

I try to tune out 'noise' when I'm talking to other people. Focusing on it, whether it's someone using profanity or 'trigger' words, mis-spelling things, using bad grammar or sentence syntax, distracts from the conversation. You start off in that direction, and people always follow. If people continuously respond to rudeness and profanity instead of discussing the topic of a thread, why even bother having topics? Every thread is a flame war simply waiting for the 'you're a poopie-head' trigger to herd people back onto the well-worn path.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Teresa
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:50 AM

I agree, Jeri. Feeding trolls is a very dangerous thing, because they might figure out that they can eat you, too. :> I try to answer questions at face value, or simply ignore the insults.
T

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 12:15 PM

so, in other words, you cannot tell someone that they are full of shit if you do not agree with them, but you can tell them that they suck rose petals, right?

Or, not that Ron Davies is one of the most dangerous on this forum.

How about, Ron Davies comments and attitudes are very hard for someone who is very down to earth to relate to.

Insulting? Whack me with a feather!

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 12:18 PM

195 (nicely)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Josh
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 12:27 PM

No

Free speech is our democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 01:19 PM

Shambles: re: "Are we not all posting as equals?"

Did you ever hear the phrase "1st among equals"?

The owner has decreed that this WILL be a semi-moderated forum...in order to have such, someone has to do the moderating. Joe & Jeff have been designated to oversee this process. They have some help doing part of the work, but ONLY they have the final decision about what is deleted. 97% of everyone is happy with that setup and trusts them.

I think I see a hidden agenda behind those who argue for NO censorship ot editing. They would rather see any amount of obscenity, stalking, personal attacks, puerile nonsense and verbal harassment allowed than see ONE of their own posts deleted. I can't think of any country or society in the world which allows unlimited freedom of speech and press. Some overdo it for political or religious gain, but even the most liberal have limits...mostly related to preserving the peace and protecting individual rights. (Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose. You can play the tuba, but not on my porch....or at 3AM. You can print/say what you wish if YOU own the site.(well, and IF you do not advocate overthrow of the govt. by force, etc.)*smile*

You want to see what it really comes down to? Read this blog on free ice cream, and then contemplate what we have here at Mudcat!

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 01:22 PM

I'm with jacqui.c in not being worried by "language" as such, which would have to be pretty extreme before I'd even notice, but rather by attitude, by the personal attacks and hostility on people whose only offence is to disagree with the attacker - and sometimes not even that, it seems to happen more or less at random. To adjust the old song "If you're not with the one you hate, then hate the one you're with".

But once you've identified someone who habitually goes in for that kind of thing, it's easy enough to ignore their posts without even looking at them. No need to reward them with attention, or make a big deal about censorship.

.........................................

My feeling about censorship and moderating on the Mudcat is that it's probably about right at present. That's based on the fact that, so far as I can remember, I've only once come up against a situation where I've noticed that a thread has been removed when I felt it shouldn't have been, and I don't think that's a bad record.

But I'd be uncomfortable about having significantly more tidying up, especially if were just about language as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: M.Ted
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 02:06 PM

Thanks, Joe, for talking straight to "Martin", without the invective, without the hyperbole, and without the dire polemics. And thanks, "Martin", for being straight and honest in your response--

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 03:55 PM

200

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 04:16 PM

When people say YES to censorship, what they mean is - as long it is done to anyone but THEM...

But Bill the issue is never going to be one of having a totally uncensored forum - I think that many have accepted long ago that for many reasons this is never going to be the case here. So there is really little point in trying to make me defend things I have not said or a general position that I do not hold. What I am interested in here is how the important principle of freedom of speech can best operate in the face of those who wish to exploit and abuse this freedom and those who wish to erode or ignore it.

The practical problem is first - what is meant by censorship on our forum? From reading all of this thread, although there are many questions that will follow on - I hope you would agree that this boils down to one simple question. Should every contribution made to the forum stay on the forum?

There may be some hope from some of us, that removing 'offending' posts, or even removing entire threads that may contain one or two 'offending' posts, may act in some way to prevent future 'offending'. However, I think the issue really is - if our forum should (forever) play host to these or should they be removed?

My preference is to try and ensure that this difficult question, or at least the following who,why,what and when questions - rarely need to be answered and when they do, perhaps is answered directly by Max).

It encouragingly looks as if others are also coming to recognise that there are perhaps alternative methods to try to encourage. And that changing attitudes by this encouragement may prove to be more effective, than relying only on the single questionably effective measure of the imposition of censorship, that will always remain so counter-productive.

Joe Offer in this thread.

It's still true that the very best way to deal with flames and abuse is to ignore them, to act as if offensive posts were invisible. That "discipline of silence" doesn't seem to happen around here as often as it should.

I would like Mudcat to be a gently, friendly place where people feel comfortable - and I'm deeply embarrassed when it's not. Right now, it sees that too many people around here just want to do battle. I'm sorry, but no amount of editorial work will change the essential spirit of things here. We do what we can to put out fires; but peace has to come from the community, not from some sort of editorial enforcement.

No I go banging on - mainly because our well-meaning volunteers and their loyal supporters give no ground at all and continue to publicly bang right back. If there really is a change of emphasis - from the mantra of routine imposition of editing action and encouraging judgement of the worth of other's postings, to one of ensuring that our volunteers set a different example, on the lines indicated here (and elsewhere by Joe) - I can finally stop banging on (which would be nice).

Is there any such movement?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 04:40 PM

Peace, love, dove.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 04:42 PM

Joe Offer's idea is great.

"It's still true that the very best way to deal with flames and abuse is to ignore them, to act as if offensive posts were invisible. That 'discipline of silence' doesn't seem to happen around here as often as it should."

That's precisely what I do and when someone irrationally flames me, I tend to disregard any other post that they may have. I skip right over it as if they weren't there. Eventually I begin to find out who the reasonable people are and respond to them. This includes almost everybody on Mudcat.

I am grateful for these threads and the discussion by intelligent Mudcatters. There seems to be really not too many flames or craziness by most Mudcatters; that's why I like to stay on board.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 04:44 PM

Well I am getting movement at the moment. Must go to the Loo :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: SINSULL
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 05:02 PM

No

And I have a novel idea: Why not let Max decide???

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 06:44 PM

"Should every contribution made to the forum stay on the forum?"

No...

that was easy!

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 08:53 PM

That WAS just the easy bit...................

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: catspaw49
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 09:54 PM

Ron Davies said: ".....thereby perhaps hear from some more women on the topic, since they, understandably are not fond of such language...."

Actually Ron, you seem to be a lot more offended than many women I know who also might suggest your comment is a bit chauvinistic. Sounds like something said by a real asshole portal for the discharge of semi-digested biological waste.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: catspaw49
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 09:58 PM

Oh yeah......Hey Sins!!! THAT IS the obvious answer and has always been the obvious answer. However, if most of the "portals" who debate this shinola all the time would just give in to that, the thread count would drop by half as they'd have nothing to debate.(:<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:51 PM

Nice one Catspaw40. Hope you enjoyed that, Ron Davies.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:17 AM

Nothing like setting a good example.

And this is nothing like setting a good example.

Actually Ron, you seem to be a lot more offended than many women I know who also might suggest your comment is a bit chauvinistic. Sounds like something said by a real asshole portal for the discharge of semi-digested biological waste.

Spaw

Are you still a volunteer then - Pat?

Guest Frank said:

Joe Offer's idea is great.

>"It's still true that the very best way to deal with flames and abuse is to ignore them, to act as if offensive posts were invisible. That 'discipline of silence' doesn't seem to happen around here as often as it should."<

That's precisely what I do and when someone irrationally flames me, I tend to disregard any other post that they may have. I skip right over it as if they weren't there. Eventually I begin to find out who the reasonable people are and respond to them. This includes almost everybody on Mudcat.

Yes it is a great idea - if only this example WAS actually set and encouraged. If the 'reasonable' people were set a better example, and our volunters followed Frank's example and actually did practice what they preach and simply ignored the insults and did not respond in kind - it would finally be a start to ensure that we did not have to keep having this debate.

Joe Offer in this post:

That's what I mean, Martin. You have a lot to say that's valuable. It's the combative stuff that doesn't work here. We need a certain amount of civil behavior for this place to function as a forum of ideas. The name calling and insults distract from all that, and result in chaos instead of discussion.

I think it's safe to say that every insult posted posted on the Internet is multiplied tenfold by the recipient, who then magnifies and returns the insult. Then the whole thing stops being fun.

So far so good - then.......

That's why I deleted Martin's insults before Ron got a chance to respond and continue the cycle. It has nothing to do with obscenity or foul language or any of that prudish stuff - animosity is the problem. I'd really rather not have to waste my time deleting any of this nonsense, but the atmosphere has been downright nasty around here lately.

Sigh.....Are Catspaw's (and Joe's own) insults and personal attacks to be deleted too? I suspect not....Please get a grip.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 04:31 AM

Ya' know Shambles, the real issue on all of these threads that seem to be running now is once again the same one that was here 5 or 6 years ago and it is one of control. I've been through these sillyass wars umpteen times now and in the final analysis it still gets back to Max.

Poor Max. The young man has a valuable and fun website which all of us are only too happy to tell him how to run. When one of these things gets too bad and too over the top, he ends up stepping in and explaining what he'd like to see happen. Things then calm down til the next round. In all this time I have yet to see him take a stand to employ any more censorship than is absolutely the barest minimum. And he has chosen Joe and Jeff (who don't always agree) to keep it at a level he can live with. It's his choice. And through almost all of it Roger you have stated you too want no censorship. Gee, that sounds okay with Max to me.......he just also seems to know that some moderation is needed in the real world.

But then you do fight the need for the occasional clean-up and combining of threads as well as as the abusive ones since it strikes you as a slippery slope and you don't like the fact that Joe does it or Jeff does it and you don't. You refer once again to "Joe's own insults" and to be accurate, I must tell you that I have never seen one from him that amounts to a hill of beans or can actually be classed as an insult at all. And I know you will agree that I am the resident expert on insults so take my word for it, he hasn't broken the surface of the insult pond. And as to personal attacks............ah the hell with it. Typing this is a waste of time.

Joe and I have had plenty of fights and disagreements over the years but the man has a great heart and puts forth his best effort. If Max has a problem with Joe, he addresses Joe......not me, not you....Joe. You have been on this "chase" for several years and I credit you with high intelligence so I am amazed that you cannot seem to stop this harangue in the face of all evidence that it does no good for you or Mudcat to continue. If you are searching for this "utopian site" that you seem to be, this ain't it. It's damn good, but it will never satisfy you. Whatever your dream is, please go and create it. Don't leave here, you're still a member and that didn't work before for you. No, please stay, but can the diatribes. Then go out as well and set up a site that will encompass all you believe this place should and doesn't. You are free to do that and I would be very interested in the result.

I am around here so damn little anymore that I don't really know the latest group of players but I read the threads and see the same shit and a different day (or year) when it comes to telling Max what is wrong with Mudcat. If he hasn't gotten your message by now, don't you think it's probably a waste of time writing these voluminous postings in the hope that one day Max sees one and says, "By gawd Roger, that's brilliant! I never thought of that before!" Or, "You're right Shambles, Joe is an unmitigated asshole and I've been a fool all these years." ??????????

Feel free to continue writing Volume 97 in the saga, but if I were you, I think I'd invest my time in setting up my own perfection rather than trying to run someone elses.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 04:39 AM

i agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:14 AM

My house has a large white wall. I invite people to write some of their thoughts on this wall and to communicate with each other there. However, it also proves irresistible to vandals with spray paint tins – who write all over it with large letters, in every colour imaginable.

Now some people I know, volunteer to clean it all off. To ensure that it does not happen again, in an equally colourful manner with their own spray cans, they write in large letters pointing out that - spraying colourful paint all over this wall is not something that is to be encouraged.

These volunteers even invite (at least permit, by not cleaning off their contributions) a few trusted friends to also say the same things with their spray cans and in an equally colourful way.

Do you know what? Before long, the wall is again covered all over with colourful spray painted writing!!!!

Would you believe it, eh?

Now this has been going on for many years and there have been lots of suggestions for a different approach and for a different example to be set. But these volunteers just get out their trusted spray cans and write all over the wall to tell them, in the usual colourful way - that the wall has been entrusted to them by the owner and that they and their supporters think that 97% agree with the tried and trusted method.

In fact a number of those who I invited to contribute to my wall find that their contributions are being cleaned off, along with the spray paint or being covered over by it. And they don't feel that there is room for both them and all the spray-painting. Some of them go off and try to a wall that suits them better.

Many however do choose to remain and to watch as the wall continues to be covered with large letters in colourful spray paint and still write on the wall to suggest sensible alternatives. And that it is now possibly time to accept that although these volunteers may be having a great time with their spray cans– it may be time to set a new example.

Perhaps I should give it a try?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:38 AM

Lay off Joe. He is doing an excellent job in a situation requiring an extremely delicate balance. I suspect none of the critics would like to have his job, which comes close to a classic "damned if you do, damned if you don't" conundrum. What did Lincoln say about pleasing all of the people all of the time?

Little Hawk--

Wrong. Some people (of both sexes) realize that vulgarisms are stupid, pointless, and show, as I said before, a poverty of vocabulary and intellect. Based on postings I've seen here, I am not the only one who doesn't like them. I've certainly seen others who never use them. The English language may be the richest in the world--why not use it?
The Nader thread was almost 100 long and I realized that only one woman had posted (I believe). It was a reasonable guess on my part that perhaps part of the cause was that it was descending into locker room talk, as I had seen others do. Perhaps it was a wrong guess.





Martin--


As you should be able to tell, neither the "full of" nor the "rose petals" comments really contribute that much to any discussion. How about actually addressing issues (like Nader etc.) rather than attacking anybody personally? It seems a reasonable request. Foul language and personal attacks are the last refuge of somebody who has no arguments that make sense. If the shoe fits.....


To all--

I've made my views quite clear. I am totally against all censorship on Mudcat, except self-censorship. I am free to appeal for restraint. You are obviously free to ignore me. I read and hear foul language all the time. If there is more to the argument than that I continue reading. If not I stop. It's a waste of my time and everybody else's. There is virtually no foul language in the music threads. There doesn't really have to be here either. But I will not leave the non-music threads, regardless of language or personal attacks, since I believe there are important non-musical issues to be discussed. For the record, I think George Carlin's 7 Dirty Word riff was hilarious.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:44 AM

One more thing--

It would be a fascinating exercise to see what language everybody used if everybody had to actually use his or her real name each time they posted, as I do. I bet that, as Bob Wills said, there'd be "some changes made".

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:19 AM

"Self-righteous twit" reporting for duty, sir:

I also think a lot of rugby songs are great, sing "God damn them all" in Barrett's as loudly as anybody, and can use bad language myself if I'm in the crosswalk and some idiot in a car doesn't stop. I could also probably sing "On the Good Ship Venus" if I'd re-learn the words, and I think it's a shame how sea chanteys have been watered down in performance. I also quit a group partly because the director tended to do completely bowdlerized versions of sea songs. That doesn't mean I think it's just fine how vulgar speech permeates everyday life. It doesn't have to.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:21 AM

Wesley S came up with the following [posted in the latest 'hug and prayer complaint thread]- it says more in a few lines than I can ever manage, in my long-winded way.

Grant our members and guests the serenity to accept the things they cannot change - the courage to change the things they can - and the wisdom to realise that this is a forum open to the public and that they have no control over the posts and ideas of others.

Kevin said:

My feeling about censorship and moderating on the Mudcat is that it's probably about right at present. That's based on the fact that, so far as I can remember, I've only once come up against a situation where I've noticed that a thread has been removed when I felt it shouldn't have been, and I don't think that's a bad record.

But I'd be uncomfortable about having significantly more tidying up, especially if were just about language as such.

Not too sure if I can see that anyone, who matters, is too worried about how uncomfortable you, I or anyone else feels on the forum.

But because you may not have noticed or not often come up against a situation where someone you know has been raped - it does not mean that the single victim does not deserve your concern, that rape generally is not a terrible crime or that the police generally have a good record of preventing rape, does it?.

But whatever you or I may come up against or feel - it is the victim's experience that matters. I think you would agree that even one rape is one rape too many - although I somehow rather doubt that you will use words that will make this agreement very clear?

As for the current level of censorship and moderation being about right. Is the level of this the issue? Indeed, how would you or I measure this level - if it were? If you have never had censorship imposed upon your contribution, you may consider that the level is just about perfect - if censorship has been imposed upon your contributions, you could be forgiven perhaps, if you thought it to be excessive, both in manner and in frequency?

The one instance you refer to where you thought a (entire) thread was wrongly removed (along with all the invited contributions of many posters) is enough to cause concern and indicate that this may be just the sign of what may be a much bigger problem? Indeed when I first came across such an event - I did not make the assumption that it was a one-off. I made a point of finding out if it was or not and established that it was not an isolated occurence at all.

Even if the one instance you noticed and referred to was just one poster - is not this victim and their feelings enough concern? When it is a entire thread, is it not even worse?

Being granted serenity is one thing - complacently ignoring the full implications of what you consider 'shouldn't happen' - is just choosing to live in a 'cloud-couckoo land'. I feel that given your concern on so many issues that you would not tolerate this in the real world - without a concerted attempt to 'get to the bottom of it' or to change it. However, I am often wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:38 AM

Well written and stated Ron. As to your last statement, anonymous posting and the like can be frustrating and perhaps you are right. Consider too that perhaps you are not. The real situation at the 'Cat really has little to do with it in most cases because the overwhelming majority of those using screen names are known to most others quite well. In my case you would easily find here at Mudcat all the details of my life from the mundane to the ridiculous.....and I do mean all!

When I joined back in '98, the place was a mix of real and screen names and I used the latter for no particular reason. I would have signed in otherwise had it been an issue. So many things happened both to me and at the 'Cat within the first year I was around that Spaw was as real to most members as my real name. Now, every member I talk to in person or on the phone calls me Spaw. At this point I'd be better off to change my real name to Spaw than the other way around.

The anonymous types that are abusive or rude or just here to troll and flame are easily recognized and easy to ignore. If this group wasn't so damn verbal, it would be simple to rid the place of them.....but we just can't shut up and do it!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:40 AM

Lay off Joe. He is doing an excellent job in a situation requiring an extremely delicate balance. I suspect none of the critics would like to have his job, which comes close to a classic "damned if you do, damned if you don't" conundrum. What did Lincoln say about pleasing all of the people all of the time

Was it Lincoln who also said: "if you can't stand the heat – get out of the kitchen"? Perhaps not.....

However, it was Jeri that said: Keep in mind that perhaps the LAST person you want deleting stuff is somebody who says "Ooh, let me do it...I WANNA do it!"

For it is not a job. Joe is both a long-term contributor and well-intentioned volunteer, and it should be remembered no one is forcing him to place himself in the firing line and there is no shortage of those willing to replace him, should he ever decide to step down.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,Amazed
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:52 AM

Why don't you all go and get a fuckin life?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:57 AM

However, it was Jeri that said: Keep in mind that perhaps the LAST person you want deleting stuff is somebody who says "Ooh, let me do it...I WANNA do it!"

Shambles,

when Jeri posted that you commented 'I shall keep this in mind' and I cited that sentence in your thread about minor lies. You've proven me right very soon.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 07:26 AM

As so often catspaw has said what needs to be said.

I think Shambles should get that white wall actually set up on his house, and invite us round to decorate it.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 08:28 AM

I will be asking for no volunteers for my wall. I was rather expecting some answers and a serious debate. As I have said, I am often wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 08:48 AM

Shambles...we have HAD that debate for several years.


You have made your point.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 08:50 AM

Shambles, the "wall" you gave as a metaphor is now others' metaphor for the forum Spaw suggested you go start up. The "decorating" suggested is about us participating in it so you can see what it's like to actually run a board.

I think the general sense peoole are indicating in their posts is that your metaphor has a flaw in it-- it's not your board, it's Max's. For you to hope to advise about it would require you to be his peer- a board owner yourself.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 09:36 AM

As I have said - I am often wrong. However me being wrong does not make everything else right. Posting simply to shooting me down will not change anything much - will it? I am at least putting something up to be shot at......

I think the general sense peoole are indicating in their posts is that your metaphor has a flaw in it-- it's not your board, it's Max's. For you to hope to advise about it would require you to be his peer- a board owner yourself.

I had thought that it was obvious that for the purposes of my story only, that I was Max. But I am often wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 09:50 AM

Shambles, I'd be more than happy to have Paw, Cletus, Buford,and the Reg Boys come over and clean your wall for you. They have plenty of chemicals left over from their failed porta-potty business, Crappers on Casters. Of course failing that they have also used Buford's whiz which is heavily endowed with the acids from Iron City beer. Let me know.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 10:00 AM

The anonymous types that are abusive or rude or just here to troll and flame are easily recognized and easy to ignore. If this group wasn't so damn verbal, it would be simple to rid the place of them.....but we just can't shut up and do it!!!

Many people have managed quite easily for many years to do what you find so difficult. They just do not seem to matter or generally to be much listened to. Look back over this thread alone and see all those who do this easily and as matter of course and simply request that this is generally encouraged. Why do you simply not listen to them? Why do you go on insisting that this is simply too difficult for you to manage?

These people do have the self restraint that you have found impossible for so long and the effect of their sacrifice is simply to allow the space for those (so damn verbal) who do find it impossible not to respond in kind - to do as they wish.....and still somehow attempt to maintain the high ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 11:43 AM

'However, it was Jeri that said: Keep in mind that perhaps the LAST person you want deleting stuff is somebody who says "Ooh, let me do it...I WANNA do it!"'

Consider that if that sounds incongruous to you, it may be your own perception that's wrong. Consider that you may have invented personalities for people that aren't very close to reality. One wonders why.

Spaw, your earlier post makes much sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 12:52 PM

What it sounds like to me matters very little. I am often wrong and the fault is obviously with me. It is strange how the fault is so often with anyone who may hold and express a different view.....

However, what it does sound like is a pretty good description of a volunteer. If these volunteers are very last people that 'you' want deleting stuff' one could wonder why they are the very people that are doing this and yes this could sound incongruous to many. But they would also probably be at fault and as wrong as I am.

Whoever these volunteers may be and however many of them there may be.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 01:25 PM

The 'fault' is that of whoever most misjudges reality.

However, what it does sound like is a pretty good description of a volunteer.

Why?
Especially considering "Whoever these volunteers may be and however many of them there may be." Isn't that nice...you don't know who they are and you've made up little personalities for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:19 PM

Ron Davies

Nader sucks. he's an ego maniac.

Voting for him is a vote for Bush. Except in many places you can't vote for him as he will not be on the ballot. He is in the same catagory as Homer Simpson when it comes to being on the ballot.

I really do not have any respect for anyone who offends so easily.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:23 PM

Of course, when you put graffiti on a wall you obscure the previous graffiti. If someone doesn't like what's up there, they don't need to try to get someone to go cleaning the wall, they can just write something over it. It's all essentially temporary, provisional.

The Mudcat doesn't work that way. Unless it gets removed, it stays there. Someone paints a swastika on the wall, its there for good and all, unless it gets formally scrubbed out by Joe and Co.
...............................

Shambles, man, you keep on repeating that version of the prayer about wanting the serenity to accept the things that we aren't able to change, even if maybe we'd like to, but you just won't apply it to yourself. This is, as you have said, a moderated forum, and the degree of moderation - which to me seems pretty light isn't going to change in either direction, it seems clear enough. Serenity, please... The state of being placid, tranquil, unperturbed, unruffled.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 03:15 PM

somebody who says "Ooh, let me do it...I WANNA do it!"

Sounds like a good description of a volunteer to me. My dictionary gives - make voluntary offer of one's service. But I am often wrong.

Especially considering "Whoever these volunteers may be and however many of them there may be." Isn't that nice...you don't know who they are and you've made up little personalities for them.

My statement is a simple fact. Joe, Jeff, you Jeri and Big Mick are pretty open about being known - others do not seem to be and there are unknown numbers of these volunteers. If stating that fact is considered as being not all that nice by you, it may not be considered as being nice by others. But, Jeri, I know you feel you have detected my dark secret, but I have made up no little personalities here for anyone at all, just the all the facts that are known to me.

I have no real interest in knowing who these volunteers may be nor any hope or wish to become one or to exert any control over anyone else's postings. However, I continue to be puzzled why on a forum which makes so much fuss about knowing who is saying what that, it is thought acceptable and necessary to have unkown numbers of anonymous volunteers at all. And why, given this, any speculation about their possible number (or personality) would be thought surprising.

Now you seem to think that I have evidenced that I somehow have a problem with reality. You are probably right and I am wrong, yet again. But with the secrecy that surrounds the identity of our volunteers - I am most other posters do not have much REAL information to go on - do we? However Jeri I am quite prepared to accept that the fault is all mine and I am a thoughly bad sort.

However, it could just be that I am not a thoughly bad sort and that I simply care a lot for Max's forum and wish to carry on contributing in the best way I can to making it the fine place that I think it still to be. I find it interesting that among all the judgement of the worth of others contributions, that are encouraged. And all the complaining about bithday, prayer threads etc and general disatisfaction - that I am the one seen to be moaning about the forum! I like it.

For the starting point for this thread (and poll) was concern about the activity that has resulted in two valued members (and possibly more) feeling that the forum was not a place that they wished to continue to contribute to. This is probably also down to me, but I don't really see that shooting me down, although fun, is actually making any positive contribution to trying to ensure that the forum becomes a place these people may feel they wish to return to.

It is the stage that these threads usually get to and for that reason, there never really is the meaningful debate that is so badly required.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 03:39 PM

Kevin get ALL of Wesley S's prayer right- will you please? It is important to get these things right if you are going to constantly refer to it. And yes it does apply to me too (again).

Grant our members and guests the serenity to accept the things they cannot change - the courage to change the things they can - and the wisdom to realise that this is a forum open to the public and that they have no control over the posts and ideas of others.

It is 'things they (or me) cannot change'. Not the things that we aren't able to change

Things are able to change and they do change all the time and sometimes you need a bit of courage to even make the effort to try and change them. When and only when you have made the effort - can you decide whether you can change them or not.

We may have no control over the posts of others and finally accepting this may bring some much needed serenity. But by setting the best example, we can have influence over the posts of others. As we can by setting a less positive one.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 04:07 PM

"things we cannot change" means precisely the same as "things we aren't able to change."

The only posts we control are our own, and setting a good example is indeed the best we can do. And there comes a time when protesting about a censorship which you see, and other people don't, becomes a bad example, and one that I'd hate to see followed by people with a different agenda. As it surely will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: MaineDog
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 04:25 PM

Let's have a separate quick-link to a category of anything-goes posts.
People who enjoy that sort thing should be free to indulge, so let them, as long as they are not disruptive.
Abusive threads should not be deleted, but moved into the proper place.
If you want to send me something abusive, kindly send me a link to it, so that I can decide whether to read it, and then I will know not to be offended if I choose to go into that place and read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 04:27 PM

masochists need not apply..............

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:36 PM

And there comes a time when protesting about a censorship which you see, and other people don't, becomes a bad example, and one that I'd hate to see followed by people with a different agenda. As it surely will be.

Just hold on - enough of this already - Perhaps Kevin you could provide some evidence for this bad example you claim that I am setting - this censorship that I see and which you (and others) claim not to?

If you really wish me to inflict this - I can certainly provide you with evidence for everything that that I have stated - it is not just a matter of my opinion, as I suspect you are well aware. A quick look at the HELP forum will probably suffice to everyone except perhaps those who are determined not to see.......

For a start - how about the volunteer whose action was defended when they even went so far as to post as a Guest to defend the editing action they had imposed on a 'cut and paste'? Taken without any prior consultation with Joe, Jeff or anyone else? Are you saying that I imagined this or is the attempt to be made to simply minimise this also and again? It may be possible that steps have been taken to ensure that this will not happen again but as it was so defended at the time, this seems somewhat unlikely and I have not seen any announcement that any measures or changes to prevent this have been taken. Have they, and what are they?

Badly -informed attempts to minimise what editing action is actually happening and why, are probably just as - if not even more harmful that any unfounded exagerated claims. But what would be the point of making any claim that you could not support with the evidence? What contention of mine do you doubt and what supporting evidence can you provide that the 'official line' - is what is always and only what is happening?

If someone has a less than positive agenda and a tough hide and wishes to follow my example. (God help the poor sod) - openess and the truth will always remain the best defence. Certainly a better one than having secret numbers of anonymous volunteers.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 08:13 PM

We don't ask JoeClones to consult with Joe/Jeff/Max before deleting obviously problematic things like Spam, Hate messages, racism, and personal attacks. That just wouldn't make sense. If it's obviously a serious problem, we ask that they delete it right away, and then consult with Joe/Jeff/Max for approval of the decision. If the decision is not approved, the message/thread is undeleted. Messages are not deleted to punish anybody - they're deleted to stop a problem before it gets out of hand, which is why immediate action is required.

The anonymous volunteer who deleted the item in question should not have posted a message to defend his action. His error was in attempting to explain the decision, not in posting anonymously. If any explanation is needed, it should be done by Max, Jeff, or Joe. They're the ones who approve editorial decisions.

And as I've said over and over again, such deletions are quite rare. I gave a detailed analysis in the Help Forum a couple of weeks ago. Of course, Martin got two or three personal attack messages deleted from this very thread - but ordinarily we don't have to edit quite so heavily.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 10:09 PM

99.9% of any attacks that I do are responses to attacks against me.
I don't believe those threads get deleted but are left to see a response.

I just like to hit back harder and with more impact.

Maybe not the Christian way, but I don't have that burden to worry about.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 10:52 PM

Martin--

Re: your post of 1 Sept 04 2:19 PM

I'm crushed.

But at least you realize about Nader.

Now perhaps you could read Rabbi Sol's excellent post of 31 Aug 04 6:36 PM on the Jihad thread, taking note of the references to George W. Bush and to the "Christian" Right, now hand in glove with Mr. Bush.

By the way, I was delighted to see your post on the "Do All Musical Acts Have To Sing?" thread. Couldn't agree more.

It's time to bury the hatchet.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 11:18 PM

No, problem with that.

Stay cool.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:06 AM

We now have peace in our time. That's a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 02:12 AM

Joe perhaps it is just time for a little 'reality' and less 'stonewalling'. If certain aspects of your editing policy have changed, it is not weakness to state this openly.

If some things have been reviewed and changed (even a little) in the light of experience, stating this would been seen and welcomed by most as a sign that some of our comments, suggestions and concerns will at least be taken on board, even if you may not personally be in favour of them.

At the same time as imposing your judgement and editing other people's posts based on this - you also have strong views about what you like and do not like and you feel you have every right to express these. That may be acceptable to some? However, it may lead posters to believe that only comments, suggestions and concerns that comform to yours have any chance of actually happening. Prehaps a few specific questions can be answered here?

Will the routine deletion of entire threads continue because volunteers 'can't be bothered' - only to delete what they judge to be the 'offending' posts or in future will deltions always be confined only to the 'offending' contributions?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 07:20 AM

Things go wrong sometimes, Shambles, and, given the number of threads and posts it'd be amazing if they didn't. Big deal. By and large this aspect of the Mudcat is managed extremely well, so far as I can see.

I have posted pretty often, and got tangled up in some fairly controversial threads, sometimes expressing opinions that some people disagree with very strongly. If there was a serious problem here about over-censorship and immoderate moderation, I think I'd definitely have run up against it - and I haven't. I've often looked at the Help forum, and the instances cited don't add up to very much, so far as I can see.

Anyway, I'm off to Wallingford Bunkfest now over the weekend, to get some music in. I think getting some music in is what we probably all need to do...

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:06 AM

Grok--

Hope you don't mean 1938. It need not be 1938.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:53 AM

>Badly -informed attempts to minimise what editing action is actually happening and why, are probably just as - if not even more harmful that any unfounded exagerated claims. But what would be the point of making any claim that you could not support with the evidence? What contention of mine do you doubt and what supporting evidence can you provide that the 'official line' - is what is always and only what is happening?<

Kevin said:
If there was a serious problem here about over-censorship and immoderate moderation, I think I'd definitely have run up against it - and I haven't. I've often looked at the Help forum, and the instances cited

It was exactly because of such ill-informed (if sincere) defensive postings that I have made a point of establishing the firm evidence that will support every claim that I have made here. For if such evidence is not supplied - the defenders (in a usually blind defence) will demand to see it or they will dismiss it as a generalisation. I have requested the evidence from you to support your claim and you have not provided any. But what exactly is your claim? Not that the firm evidence I refer to is not there - for you have already given evidence yourself here of such an instance.....!

Your unsupported claim is simply to minimise all these instances by saying they: don't add up to very much, so far as I can see.
Which to my mind is a bit like ignoring the pain of the individual victim and saying that just a little bit of rape never did anybody any harm, that rape is acceptable if you don't see much of it and shit happens!

Now that is a matter of opinion, to which you are (still just) entitled to express here. However it does not get rid of the firm evidence that I have provided that others can decide their own opinion from. It does seem to me, to be very much out of line with your caring thinking on so many other topics. Your care in this instance would seem only to for those who inflict the injustice that you accept IS happening - rather with the victim. The censor here has a choice as to whether they volunteer to place themselves in the position to be judged or criticised for imposing the censorship based on their judgement. The poster suffering the imposition - has no such choice, they just discover their contribution to have been judged and deleted.

If and when the poster's only offence is only to have the bad luck to have posted a positive contribution to an entire thread that is deleted, along with all its posts, because the volunteer did not judge that it was worth the time and effort to ensure that only the 'offending' posts were deleted - is just this one such example of "over-censorship and immoderate moderation," - just one too many????????

I would rather have many 'offensive' posting remaining on the forum (for ever for me and others to use our oen edit buttons and ignore) than accept that even one contribution invited here by Max, is deleted simply for lack of care.

I suspect that on other issues - you may agree. With all respect Kevin, is it not really up to the poster who has had editing action imposed upon them to decide whether this 'adds up to very much' and not you?

Many of the examples I referred to in the HELP forum (and elsewhere) and have followed up on, start off with a surprised poster asking where their contribution has gone, after having judgement and editing action imposed upon them. To my mind if not yours, these posters wishes do 'add up to very much'. In nearly every case - I have gotten rather tired of keep reading (after the damage has been done) that 'this or that volunteer should not have done this or that'. And that 'the correct procedure should have been this or that'.

We all screw up but we all hope that we learn from this and correct what is causing the screw-up. As I have said, I have given up long ago in expecting our forum to be free of censorship and concentrated on damage limitation, for if it is to be done - this sensitve issue has to be done right, it has to be seen to be done right, to have some clear and consistent aim and to be open to suggestion and review - if it is to be defended in any way.

We do all screw-up. It is as well to first accept that and to find out the true situation before setting out on a defence based mainly on the fact that the cock-ups you are defending were well-intended and caused by good people. I have never doubted this but I wonder why there needs to be all this secrecy.

However, If the postings of equally good people are being lost because volunteers cannot be bothered to sort out the 'offending' posts and continue to delete entire threads - I greatly fear that it won't be long before all the good people join Jerry, Art and the others. And you and I Kevin will be left here trying our best to talk to ourselves - whilst the 'vandals' carry on as before and our postings are deleted by unknown numbers of unknown volunteers, just because we were unlucky to post in the same thread as our 'vandals'.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:13 AM

We've lost a good one

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:31 PM

I do wish people would stop climbing all over my analogy and go off and build one of their own......*Smiles*

Of course, when you put graffiti on a wall you obscure the previous graffiti. If someone doesn't like what's up there, they don't need to try to get someone to go cleaning the wall, they can just write something over it. It's all essentially temporary, provisional.

The Mudcat doesn't work that way. Unless it gets removed, it stays there. Someone paints a swastika on the wall, its there for good and all, unless it gets formally scrubbed out by Joe and Co.

The point I was trying to make here (and obviously failing badly) was that on our forum, perfectly acceptable posts get rubbed off along with the graffiti. When they have the bad luck simply to share company with 'offending' posts in threads that are deleted entirely, because our volunteers can be bothered to delete only the graffiti.

But in a world covered in graffiti and an internet that surrounds us with all manner of unwelcome things, yes it would be nice to find a place where we did not have to put up with any of this. But as always, there is a price to be paid for this illusion. Even with automatic filters - there is a danger of filtering out the good along with the bad and relying on the personal judgement of other human beings to do the filtering - is just as problematic.

Seeing swastikas may not be very pleasant but we do know the implications of such things and not seeing them or filtering them out, does not mean these things don't exist. We also well know that these sorts of things are mainly done with the sole intention to shock and cause a reaction. But knowing this does not appear to prevent us from obliging with this very reaction. A reaction that does not prevent it, but that only ensures that the same childish attention seeking tactic will be used over and over again.   

But the main diffence with grafitti on a wall is surely that even if if should be left alone to stay there uncensored - the 'offending' post is contained in a thread, on a discussion forum, on a website and on the internet? You don't have to log on, use that site, go to the forum or to open that thread. And if you do open it and you do then choose to read it, you can choose to respond, not respond or you can ignore it.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:33 PM

Shambles-SHUT UP!

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:56 PM

Lady John from Dull

SHUT DOWN!

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:05 PM

I think The Shambles needs to start a blog. He quite obviously has a lot to say, and it looks to me like this particular medium is cramping his style a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:21 PM

Shambles, you've slipped into barracuda trial lawyer mode again. I don't mind giving information about our editorial policy and actions, within reasonable limits - but the Mudcat volunteers are not on trial and we have no reason to defend ourselves. There are no new questions in your latest messages, and I have no new answers.

If I move into a defensive mode, I am not a nice person - nobody is nice when they're forced to counterattack. I'm here to enjoy myself, not to fight - and I don't enjoy fighting. So, sorry, I have no answer for you.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:25 PM

I consider the rape analogy offensive, Shambles, for two reasons:

(1) To compare the pain of a rape victim with the 'pain' someone suffers when a stupid or offensive posting is deleted lacks any sense of proportion.
(2) Any editorial measure here is clearly a reaction and not a whimsical action. Something has happened before. So have a close look at your analogy and you'll see that, in consequence, you seem to think that a rape usually is a reaction upon some provocation. I would have thought that that old thinking 'she did ask for it' was no longer in use, not even in bad analogies.

If you complain that people jump on your analogies, perhaps the reason is that you have nothing new to say except saying the same all over again, each time with a worse analogy. You seem to think we do not understand yet, if you feed the same content all over again with slightly different words. We understand but have a different opinion.

The analogy I see is to a four year old who asks "But why can't I have an icecream" and after being told about half a dozen times still asks the same question. Four year olds do not use the repetition of the same content as a mean of argumentation but simply want to get on someone's nerves in the hope that they get what they want simply because the sound of them shutting up is such a nice change. There is one big difference: acoustic noise is more difficult to ignore.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:55 PM

Well, I was gonna post about lots of things, halfway down, but now have mostly lost interest ....

It looks to me as an amateur, that Martin (as one who has publicly boasted about just how much support he gets for 'saying it like it is') now has his drugs working for him... I was disappointed that he thinks that writing is so easy that he posts to a literary challenge thread without taking any care to check spelling, grammar, etc. Would he enjoy so casually tossing off his music without such relative amounts of care? I'll leave that line about what else he ...

Martin shoots from the hip - without much intellectual response, and for a time it was nothing but "potty mouth" - with no intellectual content exceeding that of a teenager. Sadly those who don't live their intellectual life that way, eventually may find it boring and leave, leaving only those who appreciate having him in charge of the manger. The whole point of human intellectual existence is to increase, and not go downward, but there are those who have to justify their lack of capability (and unwillingness to work hard to progress) by doing all they can, which is just to denigrate.

Martin claims to have contributed significantly to the music part of this forum. I have looked at the large number of his posts, and not found any. Can someone please post some links to those contributions, as I am always ready to learn, especially from someone who is self acclaimed to be a 'forty year expert' (I haven't found anybody else say they know who he is and praise his expertise). The music is why I came here in the first place.

Funnily enough I used to enjoy a place where folk music was played live, but there was also a 'smokers room' (I don't smoke) that I used to hang out in because of the stimulating conversation that wasn't always just on music. Since the legislation preventing smoking in public places, that stopped, and I get bored sitting down all night just listening to other people make music (I too can play CD's or radio if I just want to listen passively) - I can cope with being involved for much longer periods, but very much miss the stimulating conversation.

I do enjoy the stimulating conversations (and the silly stuff) here at mudcat as well, but people like Martin whose level of intellectual stimulation and repartee can't rise above 'ya mudder's mustache' ... well to misquote someone above - If the Foo Shits...

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,fred miller
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:13 PM

I kind of like the way things are, not as an argument, or any right I have for it to be this way, I just like it. There are plenty of other moderated forums with less fuss. But without some fuss there is less folk, I think. Avoiding profanity is a choice someone might like, but some others may like at least the option to mimic what some real folk sound like. Or it may be how they get emphatic. So what. It's just old rutted culture bias that makes these words profane. They aren't, really.
   David Mamet's plays seem to me to demonstrate a corrosive effect of profane, unimaginative use of language, but at the same time, the plays are imaginative, and say Fuck! more often than any comparably serious literature I've ever seen. Twain was vulgar. I can't believe people call each other potty-mouthed. If it's lame, why not say that, if it's misplaced, why not say that. If it was funny or insightful you wouldn't care.
   I like taking up a torch with a troll every now and then, just in sport, because it really doesn't upset me, and it's fun to imagine somebody really like that somewhere, it's boggling, bracing to one's sense of what's real, like the sea, like having to chat with your in-laws.
I'm afraid a really warm, friendly, earnest feel-good folk forum would reinforce stereotypes of minority groups, like folksingers. I would miss the ire and groans of members who can't stand the dominant tone, sometimes, I like the (sometimes) strident voices of some of the conservative capitalist folkies (This land is my land, this land is my land) who challenge liberals to be liberal-minded in the hardest ways.
Although I use my own name and all that, I like fooling around a bit with what my personality is, online. It's a unique outlet, in a way. It's a great site, a resource, a luxury, sometimes a vice. I'm actually trying to quit, except for straight information.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 12:55 AM

Well said, Wolfgang and Joe.

will the routine deletion of entire threads continue because volunteers 'can't be bothered' - only to delete what they judge to be the 'offending' posts...

will Shambles ever get over his *conspiracy theory?*

kat aka el joeclone who does NOT delete ANY threads

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 06:50 AM

I was hoping that I could indeed shut-up. But I have read nothing that really even tries to demonstrate or convince me that I am wrong. I am still waiting.....

Wolfgang et al - do you think that the routine deleting of entire threads and all their posts - to address a few posts judged to be 'offending' - is the best and fairest course of action to those Max has invited to contribute and who just happen to be unlucky to share this thread? And just because the volunteer in question "couldn't see spending much of my time sorting the wheat from the chaff?" [The full quote follows.] Do you think action should be taken to ensure that it does not happen again?

For nothing seems to have altered even a small amount. The evidence is (generally) ignored, the 'system' is still defended as perfect and those involved in it are defended as saintly individuals who could not possibly be doing anything any better and the fault is all mine and that of anyone who may question this. And the only important issue at stake here is seen to be me or my analogies. Disagreeing with me is one thing but I do ask that folk do think long and hard before they attempt defend every last aspect of the forum's censorship, based mainly on the fact that I am such an unpleasant individual that everything I say must be wrong. Posting to disagree with me will probably just keep the thread going, as I will probably reply.

Will the routine deletion of entire threads continue because volunteers 'can't be bothered' - only to delete what they judge to be the 'offending' posts or in future will deletions always be confined only to the 'offending' contributions?

I ask the perfectly valid question once again in the hope that in the light of experience (and in time) there may be an answer provided and one based on the reality and that the question will be debated here.

I also provide the evidence here. Others can then decide for themselves if the judgement passed and editing action on imposed 'GOOFING-OFF' – i.e. the complete deletion of many postings – is really showing the required care. Just as importantly to judge where in the Official Line about racist and personal attacks does it say that 'GOOFING-OFF' and not being profound is cause for judgement and imposed deletion?   

Subject: RE: favorouter mudcatters, my last post,
From: The Shambles
Date: 22-Jul-04 - 08:20 AM
Did not see the thread so I can't judge if it was more nasty or contained any more personal attacks than many other threads that do not get deleted. Two questions. 1. Did any poster write to complain or request that this thread be deleted?
2. As many of the posts do not sound as if they were 'nasty', would if not have been better to just delete the few offending posts - rather than all the contributions in the entire thread?
Post - Top - Help Forum Home

Subject: RE: favorouter mudcatters, my last post,
From:
Date: 22-Jul-04 - 10:14 AM
As many of the posts do not sound as if they were 'nasty', would if not have been better to just delete the few offending posts - rather than all the contributions in the entire thread?
I had been wondering that myself actually.
Post - Top - Help Forum Home

Subject: RE: favorouter mudcatters, my last post,
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22-Jul-04 - 02:11 PM
1. Yes, somebody wrote to complain.
2. If I can delete just one or two messages without affecting the flow of the entire thread, I do that. If I can't, I either leave the whole thread intact or delete it entirely, or close the thread. It depends on a number of factors, including what Max and Jeff and I think of the overall value of the thread. "Favorouter" was just a goofing-off thread, and nobody spent much time composing profound messages. I couldn't see spending much of my time sorting the wheat from the chaff.
It's a shame when people mess up the fun that other people are having, but that's what trolls do. We do our best to control the trolls without affecting the rest of the people. It isn't an easy task.
If you want a copy of the thread, send me an e-mail.
-Joe Offer-
[e-mail]
Post - Top - Help Forum Home


The above posts are from the following thread on the HELP forum

http://help.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=2629&messages=15

Note that the devil - as always in in the detail. The reply refers to: "It depends on a number of factors, including what Max and Jeff and I think of the overall value of the thread". This answer implies that this is a matter for consultation but then it is clear that what actually happened was that this volunteer did exactly what they wanted based only on their personal jugement: ""Favorouter" was just a goofing-off thread, and nobody spent much time composing profound messages. I couldn't see spending much of my time sorting the wheat from the chaff."

Is this evidence of a conspiracy, is this such a terrible crime, is the volunteer a bad person? No of course not and it may not be the most pressing issue that faces us all, BUT:

We would all agree that censorship is a sensitve issue. If you are expected to defend something: What you are defending MUST be that. If it is publicly stated that consultation takes place before certain actions are taken this MUST happen - every time. If is publicly stated that ONLY racist and personal attacks are deleted - then it must be limited to this - every time. If it is stated that 'cut and paste' contributions that don't fit on to Joe's screen will be deleted - then this MUST always be the case!

When it is demonstrated (even once) that what is defended as happening is proved NOT to be he case, is it not a good idea to openly ensure that this is corrected and changed and certainly that it does not continue to be defended as being the reality, until it is? It needs to be reviewed in the light of these case and preferably IN the light. The more open and less secret - the better. As has been pointed out, this is a (friendly) forum. It is not the FBI or even the tax office. Passing judgement on the worth of invited contributions and imposing editing action based on that judgement is a BIG DEAL. Should any volunteer (no matter how nice they are thought to be) not accept that, or their responsibilty to set the best example - should they be in this privileged position. And why of why would they wish to remain anonymous?

I think that judging and imposing editing action upon posters who are just unlucky to share in a thread that is deleted for the 'offences' of others is just about, if not more 'nasty' as the 'offending posts' and I think, far more damaging to our forum. We can be encouraged to ignore these 'offending post'. However, it is difficult to ignore the fact that your contribution has been judged and deleted against your wishes - for 'GOOFING-OFF'?

Enough judgements of our worth by volunteers who do not in turn feel they and their action should be judged by those they have volunteered to serve. Priviliged indeed. Max - as our creator and the site owner, is entitled to that sort of privilige - no one else.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 07:34 AM

You really have far to much time on your hands

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 09:29 AM

Sweet Jesus sucking on a watermelon seed.............

First you want answers and when you get them you want to debate them because they aren't the answers you want. While they may be the truth and the reality of the situation, they do not match the Shambles answer so they are wrong. You have answers from the inside, outside, left side, right side, upside, downside, sunnyside, shadyside, trackside, wayside, east side, west side, all around the town. You even got an answer from a side of beef immersed in 55 gallons of cider.

From Jeri and Wolfgang to McGrath and Bill D, you have received all kinds of reponse but nooooooo.....not enough and they don't match what you want. Joe gives you a factual answer of exactly the reality of the situation and you don't like it either. More debate is required. Yeah, right.....my fuckin' ass more debate......If that horse you're beating gets noticed by the local constabulary, you'll be arrested for abuse of a corpse!

If I am being abusive to you....GOOD!!! Perhaps you will understand better because you HAVE to be masochistic!!! You have been told in a thousand ways that no one else much cares but you continue. Well that's okay I guess.....You deserve your opinion! But let's look at your last line in your last post:

"Enough judgements of our worth by volunteers who do not in turn feel they and their action should be judged by those they have volunteered to serve. Priviliged indeed. Max - as our creator and the site owner, is entitled to that sort of privilige - no one else."

Yeah, enough IS enough....on that I can agree! I could not possibly have said it better. It's beautiful and factual. Indeed, enough is enough. You then rightly say that only Max has the privilege and right to do as he pleases with certain threads. Again, I agree. As you rightly state, he is the site owner.

It seems though that Max, as is his right, has delegated some of these responsibilities to others that he trusts to handle them as he would. At this point in time he must be happy or at least satisfied with his choices. After all of this continual harangue on your part, he has chosen not to do anything. Do you think he hasn't noticed? Or could it be that he has and is wise enough NOT to respond to you, knowing full well that any answer that is not YOURS will be unacceptable to you?

Geeziz man, do you belong to any other forums?? If you can find one with much less moderation than this one, let me know what it is huh? Most restrict language and any kind of abuse to members. Most immediately kill entire threads that even begin to get out of hand. Debate of any sort about the judgement of the mods is not allowed and your membership can be pulled for almost any reason and at any time if you fail to play by the rules.

Your right to be right is irrelevant. Your right to be wrong is what gives you the ability to post here. Let it go. Or take it up with Max by PM. No one else can possibly give you the answers you want...but may fail to get.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 11:14 AM

Where is all the serenity? Pat our friend from Hull had said all what you said in just two words! And I didn't take any more notice of those two words than I intend to take of yours.

I get answers? Like you have answered this one? Perhaps If when YOU ever do answers such questions as the following and it gets debated, I and others can stop asking questions like - where have our contributions gone and why has my thread been closed? Until then or until this thread is deleted or some excuse is found to close this one - I will just carry on trying to find out or hoping that I will reading some calm and reasoned thinking and some evidence that will change my view.

Wolfgang et al - do you think that the routine deleting of entire threads and all their posts - to address a few posts judged to be 'offending' - is the best and fairest course of action to those Max has invited to contribute and who just happen to be unlucky to share this thread? And just because the volunteer in question "couldn't see spending much of my time sorting the wheat from the chaff?" [The full quote follows.] Do you think action should be taken to ensure that it does not happen again?

Now threads get deleted (along with perfectly acceptable postings) because certain people only - (this does not seem to apply to some) - are saying nasty things.

I must be the only one who ever had ever ask why a thread that I originated had been closed twice? This was because some fine folk that I respect, (including Joe) were (at that time) saying very nice things about me and when it was recently refreshed - some people continued to say nice things about me! Perhaps this thread can be re-opened - as there is no justification for its closure?

Why was my thread closed twice?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 11:27 AM

routine deleting of entire threads and all their posts

doesn't happen - has never happened and probably will never happen

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 11:31 AM

Subject: RE: Gallery of Mudcat Quotations
From: The Shambles - PM
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:00 AM

Aside from some minor distortions in time-measurement I would also mention that the slippery slide toward fascism is a tad more important than whether someone thinks I talk too much.

Amos, in the following thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: jimmyt
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 11:34 AM

Anyone want a drink?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 12:22 PM

This thread is so so so unimportant, compared to what is going on in the school in Russia.

At least 150 people are reported to have died in a school in southern Russia where Chechen separatists had been holding hundreds of hostages.
Dozens of corpses were seen outside a local morgue, and the number of dead is expected to rise further.

Heavy gunfire and loud explosions were heard throughout the morning as Russian troops stormed the school, in the town of Beslan in North Ossetia.

Russian troops are fighting to free children still held hostage.

That is so sickening.

Patch up yer difereneces maties and put your thoughts in to hoping these poor children are released unharmed.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 02:15 PM

A new level of terror

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 05:56 PM

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,fred Miller
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 06:28 PM

Shambles, and Guest,

Guest, it does happen, sometimes. The thread Shambles cited was deleted entirely. There were a couple of similar over-lapping threads going also, one got a bit out of hand, and it was not the lost
library of Alexandria.

Shambles, I think I started that trouble thread you quote, wondering what happened to my last post. I got a reasonable and timely answer, and was satisfied with it.

I don't think anyone's saying everything is perfect, some people are saints, and your analogies are the root of all evil. I think people are taking a reasonable view of things, and registering some appreciation for considerable efforts made.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,fred miller
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 11:40 PM

The Villan, didn't you start this thread? Was nothing much going on in the world then? It seems rather odd, and a bit rude of you to introduce such a serious, shaming, but rather unrelated announcement, now, into a rather silly hypothetical discussion you proposed.

It reminds me what I like and respect about some of the 'rudest' matter that gets posted. Often when we suppose ourselves to be speaking in a reasonable and polite and inclusive way, we just really aren't. Polite language often excludes, even precludes different fundamental ideas and attitudes. It says, in effect, To participate you must accept our premises and speak from where we have placed you in our scheme of things. And that to very much disagree you must, much to your disadvantage, explain your entire other paradigm, and wholly account for youself--all of which we don't plan have much patience for, anyway. We'll nit-pick you to death before you get started.

That's why I suppose some people signal their point of view rudely and crudely. They don't care to apologise at great length for not sharing a more generally accepted view. You have to read the subtext of this. Haven't you ever seen a boardroom full of soft-handed sons of bitches politely being utterly obscene? Anyone who doubts that polite language can also be obscene and completely offensive, even much more so, is unfamiliar with political discourse, the daily doses of mendacity, or is simply not thinking about it, really. Or choosing not to. Some people, however open-minded they like to imagine they are, have just never had to hold their own mind when surrounded, have never really been the Other, but like to congratulate themselves for fake second-hand wisdom they've never had to actually learn for themselves.
   This is why I don't like smarmy political jokes (unless they're really good jokes) and why I would personally favor letting racist remarks stand, if there was a wider range of races participating--which I don't think is the case. As it is, it seems to me the best, slightly imperfect, somewhat compromised, but within reason, judgement is at work here, more or less.

   This is why I think I like the mess. To y'all, with love and squalor. Gosh darn it.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 01:33 AM

Kee-Rist! I drop in here every now and then for a good laugh...and I am NEVER disappointed! No siree! Gotta love it...

This thread, once it is finally done and buried, should then be bronzed and put on permanent display in the Famous Turds of the World Museum in Schenectady, don'tcha think, Spaw?

Whoo-hoo! What a stench. That is the deadest goddamn horse I have EVER seen. That horse wouldn't get up and walk if you paid it to. If its hooves weren't nailed to the perch they'd be in a bar of soap by now. It is defunct. It is kaput. It is an Ex-horse!

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 06:37 AM

Shambles, I think I started that trouble thread you quote, wondering what happened to my last post. I got a reasonable and timely answer, and was satisfied with it.

I don't think anyone's saying everything is perfect, some people are saints, and your analogies are the root of all evil. I think people are taking a reasonable view of things, and registering some appreciation for considerable efforts made.

Yes I can accept that. However, that is yet another problem with providing (some of) the supporting evidence that some demand to see. The individual case is examined, and very often the 'victim' is reasonably happpy with their treatment - or at least the later explantion for their treatment. So folk understandably think - just what is all the fuss about? The wider picture tends then to be ignored in all the agreeing or disagreeing with the wisdom of the individual judgement.

Which leads me in to another important point, that if the 'victim' was first informed of the problem and proposed action - before judgement was automatically imposed upon them without their knowledge - they most probably would be just as happy for the action to be taken and would not then have needed to write and ask 'where has my contribution gone', I would not have seen this request and everyone may be 'happy'..

Why cannot this approach be always taken in such cases? Despite its nasty and counter-productive nature - why is such imposition thought to be the first, best and often the only method?

But this is but one example - I can inflict others upon you - if you really insist. And this rather IS the point. Over time and reading a number of 'why has my contribution gone' threads, I just became more concerned at the effect less of editing itself - but of all this imposition of it and of the example it was giving. I just feel that it is time for a more positive example to be set - one that more in sprit with the reason why most of us came to post here and why may of us intend to carry on doing so.

I agree that some and probably most folk may be "taking a reasonable view of things, and registering some appreciation for considerable efforts made." However not everyone is perhaps as informed as they probably should be and are possibly leaving a little too much to trust and placing too large a burden upon those who volunteer to make the efforts, on our behalf?

There are however a few notable exceptions. Posts here that state their very intention is to be personally abusive and contain the 'F' word - remain without comment, perhaps because its poster is above censure? Or may be I am just tempting fate and this entire thread will now be deleted (or closed) as a result of this post (and my complaint about it).

I make no complaint about being personally abused on the forum, not because I am a masochist. If I were such, abuse is not really likely to hurt me- is it? But even if this and similar posts stay on the forum - I nor anybody else needs to read it. If they do and are offended - then why choose to read it. Choice is rather the issue here or rather of having no choice - or of having things decided for you.

But this is NOT an encouragement for personaly abusive posting to be made and accepted. It IS an encouragement for some folk, (as so many already can and practice this self restrait) not to respond in kind and not to respond at all. To accept they do not have any control over the posting of others and to always set this example.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rasener
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 08:33 AM

Fred :-) and kisses

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: 42
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 09:02 AM

there are sadists. there are masochists. Most of them are on this thread. I commend them on making a totally appropriate choice of venue to push each others' buttons.

j

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 10:41 AM

As a general topic, it's as interesting as reading obscenity and copywrite case histories, which I sometimes enjoy.

The difference is that this is a site that has been provided, and although it closely follows the best thinking of public legal standards, although it fills a public service, it doesn't have to.

There might be room for improvements, but I'm still not over my surprise at how good things are.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 10:42 AM

Shambles, do you not understand that Max is the only person with whom to discuss or debate this? What I say or Jeri says or Wolf says or Joe says is completely unimportant.......It is only what Max says that matters here. He has been open enough and caring enough to give us a place with great latitude where he rarely inflicts his will. But make no mistake, the site is his and were I in his position I would wonder what it is you are complaining about!

Big picture? What is that? If it is made up many little pics and the people involved in the little pics are happy, what is wrong with the big picture? It doesn't make sense. Only if you are saying this does it make sense: "Although these people are happy, there are too many instances of this happening, therefore the big picture is bad, although the small pics are all good." Then the question becomes how much is too much and once again the only person who can decide that is Max.

Personally I think you need to go out and try debating this shinola on another forum more typical of the net. Maybe then you could see just how minor and trivial your gripes are here. If what you say is happening 25 times a year here, I would still consider that very low taking into account the volume of postings and the great leniency given in the first place.

And once again, if this is simply too much for you, go find or create something nearer to your ideal. I'd love to see it. Ya' know, Jon Freeman did that and I think he did a great job. Jon created what Jon wanted and made it work.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 11:05 AM

I love you, Spaw, ya ol' litter-kicker...

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 02:05 PM

Interesting point, 42. That's what it's all about...bringing people together to satisfy their mutual needs and desires. Like I say, the thread ought to be bronzed.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 02:30 PM

Pat - From one who has just stated that they have intentionally posted an abusive personal attack on me and used what many consider to be unacceptable language in that post - it is rather difficult for me and I suspect most of us, to take anything you may say seriously. If the object of all this censorship is to stop abusive and offensive - posting what example are you showing?

By this action alone you have totally compromised all the people you take great care in naming - especially Max. Yet you are supported and I continue to be villified!! If you are not prepared to abide by the rules - but more importantly to respect the wishes of so many posters - perhaps it is time that you left our forum to those who can show the self restraint that you have shown over many years that you are unable or unwilling to do.   

Going by the Official Line, that is supposed to apply to others, without exception - your posting should have been deleted. For example the following has just been posted on the HELP forum.http://help.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=2685&messages=5

"I don't make value judgments on stuff like that. If it's an attack and somebody calls it to my attention, I'm obligated to delete it. Sorry. -Joe Offer- "

http://www.mudcat.org/detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=1263923

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 02:47 PM

Shambles, do you not understand that Max is the only person with whom to discuss or debate this? What I say or Jeri says or Wolf says or Joe says is completely unimportant.......It is only what Max says that matters here.

In the face of reality - that is your opinion. I may well go along with it - if ALL requests for the judgement and deltion of the posts of others were also be sent to and dealt with only by Max.......How about it are WE at least in agreement on this? As these occasions are stated to be so rare - it should not be too much of a chore or take too much time....

Joe Offer said: in the following in the HELP forum thread I linked to above.

Note that I have asked that requests for deletion be sent to me or Jeff privately.
Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 03:13 PM

Well, Shambles, I suppose you have a point there, if you want to get all legalistic. But generally, if a post is primarily a disagreement of ideas, that's one thing. If it's strictly an ad hominem (personal) attack, that's another thing. The personal attacks get deleted. If it's a personal attack that's mixed in with something that's mostly a discussion of ideas, then it gets messy. And then we have to use a bit of judgment.

And no, we're not going to go into a big discussion or defense of that. We do what we have to do to keep the peace, realizing that it will be absolutely impossible to satisfy everyone. Most likely, it will also be futile to attempt to defend our decisions, so it ain't worth trying. We just do what we guess is best, and let the chips fall where they may.

As for sending requests for deletion to Max, you're welcome to do that. Others may wish to send their requests (privately) to Joe or Jeff, the people Max has designated to handle that task. On the other hand, Max and Joe and Jeff really don't want to be bothered with deleting unless we have to do it. We'd much rather be doing music or other things.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 03:31 PM

Shambles, you admit it's Max's site. Face the fact it's also his prerogative to delegate authority/responsibility. You don't like that, but you're stuck with it.

You can keep on trying to make Mudcat over into the image of what YOU think it should be, you can keep writing editorials and calling them 'questions', you can keep mis-paraphrasing, blowing things out of proporion, defending those who wish you'd mind your own business, twisting facts to fit your agenda, etc, post nauseum, and none of it will accomplish anything, except for ensuring people will likely avoid discussing these things with you. My guess is that you've alienated everyone who could change things.

It doesn't mean people won't occasionally enjoy the debate, just that it's highly unlikely anything will change because of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 03:59 PM

Yes! More! More! I need this sort of stuff for my young cousin's psychology essay.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 04:22 PM

Let me see if I have this right. A guy goes to a restaurant. He doesn't like the food or the service. He keeps going back to eat at the same restaurant. He keeps complaining about the food and service. Well, fucking doh! Maybe it's time to find another place to eat. DING!

If this thread was a blow job, it would have killed forty men by now. It's been going on for eleven count-them days. Doesn't that calf have a mother?

Shambles, come up for air. Take a week off. When Lewis Carroll was asked how one should go about writing a story, he said, "Start at the beginning, and when you get to the end, stop." The END.

Warmest regards,

GROK

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 04:35 PM

Blah de blah de blah...and so some people...certain people keep it going for what??????

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:01 PM

Yeah, and I keep getting sucked into it, despite my noblest efforts. Oh, I hate myself!!!
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:10 PM

Oh no Joe...you do a grand job...just keep it up!!

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:15 PM

Yeah, Joe. You sure do!
Now personally, I would never...wouldn't usually...alRIGHT I don't always get sucked in. I keep thinking people will miss what's really happening, even though I know folks are smarter than that, and I'm stating the obvious. You ever see the movie 'Groundhog Day'?

I need to go wail in DADGAD a while and work on some songs.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rasener
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:16 PM

Just a thought. Could The Shambles really be Max? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,Weekly Update
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:31 PM

GS,

You have the restraint to post days and days apart. It is good to know someone is doing his bit. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:46 PM

No, we've already decided Shambles is my ex-wife. Once or twice, Max has called me "Dad."
The possibilities are frightening...
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:51 PM

Myyyyyy Gawdddd!

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 06:23 PM

I just hold and express my view. A view that I always had thought was shared by most of my fellow posters. Shooting me down now will not change our forum to the place that I and many others felt welcomed to when we first contributed many years ago and the fine example that was then given by Max (and indeed Joe Offer).

This warm unconditional welcome that now seems only open to folk like Catspaw and others, who are permitted to completely ignore the Official Line and are excused from the punishment automatically meeted out to unlucky others for making offensive and abusive personal attacks - for the most ingenious of reasons [see above].

Folk like me, who ask perfectly valid questions are subject to offensive personal abuse from volunteers like Joe, who seem to think that being questioned is the same as being attacked and that this then entitles them to personally attack in response using offensive langauge, that was not first presented to them.

The result of this weak attempt to impose this double standard, is to totally descredit this fine forum. And these very people post to invite me to stop contributing and to go somwhere I like better?

At the moment a lot of people (including Joe Offer) are constantly setting the example of moaning about the worth their fellow contributors and the merits of this or that thread. Others are still encouraged to complain constantly about whether others should use a name or not etc. Pedant's complaints are now almost always listened to and our forum shaped to accomodate this moaning. Posters are still being encouraged to secretly request that the postings of others to be judged and editing action imposed upon oter posters without their knowledge. Now, unknown numbers of unknown volunteers are encouraged to make personal judgements on the worth of the contributions of others.

Jeri accuses me of saying something that does not sound nice. Does any of the above sound very NICE? No it is nasty - if it were necessary and effective - there may be some justification for it - is there any? Does it really HAVE to be like this? I don't think it does.

Have I been moaning about my fellow posters? Have I been making personal and abusive attacks upon them? I actually LIKE our forum and accept that I may not agree with the views of others - and that tolerating this IS pretty much the whole point of it.

However I may not like the fact that our forum appears to have been taken over and a completely different set of values is now enshrined - as if this was always the way things were. It is not - and had it ever been - I, and I supect many others, would not have felt welcomed and repaid that welcome by many positive contributions over many years.

This is my view and I am evidencing that view - if you don't agree - fine. Post and say so, that is debate and if we can debate everything from the universe to armpit hair here - we should be (if there really is a will) able to debate measures to prevent flaming and abusive posting - without being encouraged to resort to flaming and abusive posting.

As for it changing anything - who knows? I don't see anyone else trying so I will have to do my best as I don't see that I have much choice but to try. I suspect that possibly some small things may already have changed? Given the stonewalling and blind support, it is ulikely that anyone will ever know. If so, it is a shame as I will just have to carry on trying. I don't accept everthing I say is so unreasonable or impossible - and even the smallest of movements in he right direction would be welcomed.

Some simple answer to simple questions will help as none of my detractors, in their haste to shoot the bearer of the message, has yet answered or debated these.

Why cannot this approach be always taken in such cases? Despite its nasty and counter-productive nature - why is such imposition thought to be the first, best and often the only method?

Will the routine deletion of entire threads continue because volunteers 'can't be bothered' - only to delete what they judge to be the 'offending' posts or in future will deletions always be confined only to the 'offending' contributions?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 06:27 PM

Mommy, he's baacckkkk.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 06:35 PM

Ex-wife Joe???? Are you referring to the one who went missing that day you were fishing?

Back in the War Between the States, there was a Confederate general named Braxton Bragg for which Fort Bragg is named.....Why they named it after him, I have no idea as he was a dyspeptic and unpleasant person prone to losing battles and snatching defeat from the jaws of victory on several occasions. He was widely disliked and not respected by his troops and other officers as well. But Braxton Bragg had one enduring and endearing quality and that was to call a spade a spade if he saw it that way from his point of view.

A few years prior to the war he was the Quartermaster of a western post. The post commander died and Bragg was named to the job until a permanent commander could be put in place. As Quartermaster Bragg he wrote a letter/memo to the Post Commander complaining of something. As Post Commander Bragg, he wrote back explaining the situation, arguing with the points made by the Quartermaster. Quartermaster Bragg read Post Commander Bragg's response and wrote a scathing diatribe in return. Thus began a long correspondence between the two lasting quite some time.

I have always loved that story and found it quite singular that a man could correspond seriously with himself to the extent that Bragg did. He didn't need anyone else to have an argument when he himself would do. I thought the story was extremely funny and I used to get a big laugh out of it.

I used to.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 07:46 PM

Shambles,

G-d always answers our prayers. Sometimes the answer is no. Spaw has no more rights than anyone else here. I had a post removed once--in fact a whole thread I'd started. In retrospect, that was a good thing. You are making me think of people who don't want anything to change, ever. Man, the good ol' days weren't all that good. They were not all that much better than today. I have listened to people pine for days past when everything was better and the intellectual repartee was so much more refined and life was good under the apple tree. Know what? I have read some of the threads. They were no better than the average thread today. There were some gems to be sure. There have been some gems recently, too. So, what's to say? I wish you well with your crusade, but not too many people really care all that much. Editing happens. That's life. Accept it.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 07:55 PM

Catspaw said:

From Jeri and Wolfgang to McGrath and Bill D, you have received all kinds of reponse but nooooooo.....not enough and they don't match what you want. Joe gives you a factual answer of exactly the reality of the situation and you don't like it either. More debate is required. Yeah, right.....my fuckin' ass more debate......If that horse you're beating gets noticed by the local constabulary, you'll be arrested for abuse of a corpse!

If I am being abusive to you....GOOD!!! Perhaps you will understand better because you HAVE to be masochistic!!! You have been told in a thousand ways that no one else much cares but you continue. Well that's okay I guess.....You deserve your opinion!

Joe Offer said:
Well, Shambles, I suppose you have a point there, if you want to get all legalistic. But generally, if a post is primarily a disagreement of ideas, that's one thing. If it's strictly an ad hominem (personal) attack, that's another thing. The personal attacks get deleted. If it's a personal attack that's mixed in with something that's mostly a discussion of ideas, then it gets messy. And then we have to use a bit of judgment.

AND

"I don't make value judgments on stuff like that. If it's an attack and somebody calls it to my attention, I'm obligated to delete it. Sorry. -Joe Offer- "

Perhaps you could explain the difference to me in a bit more detail preferably with reference to the Official Line? Catspaw's post sure reads like an attack to me. Is that all one has to do then - wrap up one's attack? I can see many taking notice and ready to follow this example. Sigh.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 08:16 PM

Jaysus, Shambles. You remind me of a German Shepherd I oce had. She damn near drowned trying to bring a log into shore. It was a freshly-felled birch tree. Darn dog just wouldn't let it go. The tree must have weighed 200 pounds. The dog weighed about 70. Good dog: loyal and determined. However, at times I questioned how bright she was.

Jeri, Wolfgang, BillD, Spaw, Joe, et.al.: none of these people presume to be the last word on ANYTHING, so why worry about it. They were just giving some advice and contributing thoughts on an issue. But right now, we all pissin' into the wind. There are ooccasions when censorship can be employed for the general good. Is it always perfect? NO! But, it's a damn sight better than you'll find anywhere else on the 'net, IMO. I admire tenacity. But, there are times I really gotta question the 'fundamentals' of some people. The fat lady has sung. Let's do a round of "Goodnight, Irene" and move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 08:18 PM

That's an interesting story Spaw. I once worked at a job where I had so many different responsibilities I eventually fired myself. Wonder now if I'd write myself a letter of recommendation.

Shambles, not everybody is villifying you or attacking you, just not quite agreeing. Nothing personal in that. I admire your persistence, but really I think you'd be better suited to a bigger purpose. Can I call you if I'm unjustly imprisoned?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 08:24 PM

If you're a parent, Roger, you undoubtedly on occasion -although perhaps not routinely ;~) - have found yourself telling a presistent beyond belief child, "No. That's it. Not another word." ??

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 11:37 PM

Roger has always been jealous of Spaw.

I don't see anyone else trying so I will have to do my best as I don't see that I have much choice but to try. There's nothing worse than a self-appointed crusader of a non-existent cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:42 AM

Good morning. It would be nice if a few more people who take the time and trouble to post, actually addressed the points and answered the questions....

The ingenous reason Joe Offer gives for not deleting Catspaws (admitted) personal attack in this thread, is as follows...
Well, Shambles, I suppose you have a point there, if you want to get all legalistic. But generally, if a post is primarily a disagreement of ideas, that's one thing. If it's strictly an ad hominem (personal) attack, that's another thing. The personal attacks get deleted. If it's a personal attack that's mixed in with something that's mostly a discussion of ideas, then it gets messy. And then we have to use a bit of judgment.

AND

"I don't make value judgments on stuff like that. If it's an attack and somebody calls it to my attention, I'm obligated to delete it. Sorry. -Joe Offer- "

The extraordinary fact is that above judgement, comment and the deletion - was from the music forum and was imposed upon a contributed SONG!

kat says:
There's nothing worse than a self-appointed crusader of a non-existent cause.

I really suspect there is a lot worse but......Others can judge for themselves whether the 'cause' is non- existent or not.

One of the less offensive things that Joe has called me recently, is a 'self-appointed busybody'! We probably agree on this, at least. Although the word, volunteer has a more respectable sound to it. Now one could talk about the kettle calling the pot black but we won't go there. It is less the point that I am a SAB that Joe objects to but more the nature of where I choose to stick my nose.

For I would contest that the whole forum is currently being encouraged to be SABs. Encouraged to judge the worth of other's postings and to generally mind everyone else's business. To post and request that judgement is passed on the worth of the contributions of others and that editing action is imposed, based on this judgement.

Joe has little problem with these SABs. In fact these constantly complaining sad souls are encouraged to complain about others and not thought of as being SABs but the very people who he is volunteering to serve. The rest of the posters who do not need to watch others or constanly complain about them and who just get on with posting are not really very much considered, until they are reported as 'out of line'.

However, 'self appointed busybody' only becomes a term of abuse to Joe when the business that I am minding, is what Joe considers to be his. Those that volunteer to judge the worth of others on our forum, do not appear to take kindly to being scrutinised and judged in turn. One of the claims is that 'we are not on trial here'!

Well if not our volunteers – who is on trial here? Perhaps no one should be...However, the way Joe appears to see it, those who are here to be judged obviously?

Real court judges in society – (whether they actually achieve his or not) – are supposed to be subject to a higher scrutiny and willingly accept this as part of their privileged position.

Encourage me to mind my own business by all means but why not at the same time take steps to encourage everybody to do this by setting a more positive example?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:52 AM

In most 'civilised' society - we do not tend to have anonymous court judges. However, we do tend to have anonymous executioners....

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 10:59 AM

Fred re your 04 Sep 04 - 08:18 PM and a new line of work for The Shambles. I was just thinking the same thing.

Shambles, there are virtually millions of causes you could go to bat for, but let me suggest just one. Even though he's on the west side of the Big Pond, this guy could sure use your talents. Hmmm...that gives me an idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 11:33 AM

Help The Shambles Find A Worthwhile Cause

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 11:42 AM

That was not a song that was deleted, The Shambles. It was a taunt masquerading as a song. And it was an invitation for others to contrubute their own taunts and insulting verses.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 03:32 PM

That was not a song that was deleted, The Shambles. It was a taunt masquerading as a song. And it was an invitation for others to contrubute their own taunts and insulting verses.

Thanks Carol, for responding to the issues raised.

You may well be right - but now has the song has been deleted there is no evidence to support your value judgement that posters are currently encouraged to make on the worth of another's poster's contributions. It may well have been an invitation to others to contribute to the thread, as you say but this does not mean that folk cannot decide for themselves whether they wish to take-up this invitation or not. They are not thought to be able to make this choice for themselves, and now they cannot decide, for the decision has been made for them, with this value judgement and imposed editing action.

I am just asking for an example to be set that does not first encourage this us to judge the worth of each other's posting and secretly report it to Joe or Jeff. But one that simply encourages us all to address what is said to respond or to ignore it. I think you may accept that this current example and inconsistent editing action and some poster's frustration with this - may at least be partly responsible for this song being posted in the first place?

But I am not defending the posting of the song, am just evidencing that this instance, (that Joe refers below) was Joe excusing imposing deletion on this song, as being a straight-out attack - needing 'no value judgement' and different to Catspaw's post here that did seemingly require this value judgement. A post that by Catspaw's own admission was an intentional offensive personal attack! For without the value judgement - that you and Joe both made upon its worth - the song in this thread was just one for (possible) addition to the DT.

"I don't make value judgements on stuff like that. If it's an attack and somebody calls it to my attention, I'm obligated to delete it. Sorry. -Joe Offer- "

And the following from the HELP forum thread linked to below.

I'm an equal-opportunity deleter. I don't care who's attacking whom. I don't go scouring the Forum for personal attacks, but if I find it, I delete it. { the quote goes on the mention the names of posters whose posts he has both deleted]. I never doubt Joe's good intentions but perhaps whether he is an equal-opportunity deleter or not – is not a value judgement for him to make - but it is perhaps one for Max and us?

http://help.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=2684&messages=2

The following quotes demonstrate that our volunteers claim their fight to protect us from personal attacks does not protect us from personal attacks from our volunteers - like the following selected examples from Joe Offer.
Shambles, go whine somewhere else, or maybe we should start threads about you and the sheep or something.

But Shambles believes in this sort of thing, so I think that maybe this would be a good opportunity to smear his reputation. Shambles, I'm sick of you and your shit.

Ah, Shambles - we make an exception for you, since you seem to think it's a good thing to have personal attacks. We want to keep you happy, after all. Your whining is so annoying.

I am sure that value judgements will be made that I really deserve far worse (a point also made by Joe). But it is not the nature of the attack but where it originates. Is this kind of thing really the best example for our volunteers to be setting? If abusive personal attacks are supposed to be discouraged and the prevention of this is the whole justification for their existence and for their imposed editing actions – perhaps it is not the very best example and that it is time to set a better one?

Just the smallest indication of even a little movement towards this - would be a welcome start.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 04:11 PM

I'm sorry, The Shambles, but with my severe astigmatism and ADD, I find it very difficult to read through most of your long posts, and I don't really have any desire to get into a discussion with you or anyone else about this subject anyway, so I am now bowing out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 04:59 PM

If you're a parent, Roger, you undoubtedly on occasion -although perhaps not routinely ;~) - have found yourself telling a presistent beyond belief child, "No. That's it. Not another word." ??

Ebbie-.

Yes I am a parent (although our youngest is now 23).

When I was young and because, I suspect, of the example given by my parents, I always hated being told things like 'because I say so'. This was usually by someone in authority who supported and demonstrated double standards and expected me to do what they told me to, rather than follow the example set by their actions. I felt that these people demanded my respect but showed me very little respect.

Because of this, I always made a point of trying to ensure that I never set this example to my own children and was as consistent in my approach as possible. I am quite sure that I never actually managed to maintain this high standard and did resort, at the times you mention – to words and actions that I would later, not be very proud of. We all screw-up.

However, if/when I ever shut my children up by such tactics – rather than trying to explain and to reason – I would not expect my intelligent and questioning children to ever be satisfied with this and for this to be the end of it. No matter how unreasonable my children were acting - if they were telling me that I was being unreasonable and too set in my ways – they were usually right.

If I wanted a quiet life – it was better (for all concerned) for me to make some small adjustment, in response to my children's requests – than to simply maintain - that because my intentions were always well-intentioned - everything I did was perfect and could not be improved. If I didn't make even a small adjustment, I could be sure that my children would never give-up, until I did.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:05 PM

Strangers in the night, exchanging glances
Wondering in the night, what were the chances
We'd be sharing love
Before the night was through...

Did Sinatra sing that as a duet with his daughter?
-Joe Offer, bored-

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:10 PM

Dear Bored in California,

I believe there is a new pageful of requests rather recently added at Recordlady-- downloadable sound files for those out of the loop-- if anyone wants to consider posting some new SONGS at Mudcat.... did a few myself, and hey! Some of them already HAD THREADS I could add to (to which I could add)! And only one of them had any real arguing in it!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:21 PM

Posting to disagree with me will probably just keep the thread going, as I will probably reply. (Shambles)

What a threatening sentence. Let it slowly sink in and digest it and you'll understand why these threads seems never to end.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:26 PM

Mares eat oats, and does eat oats,
And little lambs eat ivy,
A kid'll eat ivy too,
Wouldn't you?

Fanatics can't change their minds and won't change the subject. You have fought the good fight and let's call it a draw, OK?



Are you ready, Boots?

Ba dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:29 PM

If I promise NOT to disagree with you, will you promise to stop posting to this thread? If so, plesae reply on the thread started in your honour.


BS: Help Shambles Find A Worthwhile Cause

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:48 PM

we do tend to have anonymous executioners (Shambles)

Always take the strongest possible analogy, Shambles. If you look at Mudcat you think of freedom losing to fascism, if you think of the JoeClones you think of executioners. You have no sense of proportion.

The reviewers of my articles are anonymous for me, the post clerk deciding whether your parcel is too large is anonymous to you, most copy editors are anonymous. Lots of decisions each day are made by anonymous people, but the first instance that comes to your mind are executioners who BTW, have nothing to decide?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:54 PM

What a threatening sentence. Let it slowly sink in and digest it and you'll understand why these threads seems never to end.

You could always post to agree - but I will settle for a least some comment actually on the issue. As a last resort, I will even settle for you posting anything that sends it to the top again. No one is forcing anyone to open this thread (except that you just can't resist having a peek) and no one forcing anyone to read this - it you really don't like it - don't keep refreshing it. If simply ignoring threads and posts that are not to your taste was encouraged - the problem of abusive postings would have gone away long long ago.

The reason these threads never seem to end is the same reason it gets refreshed and put back up to the top of the forum every time someone posts to point out the blindingly obvious, of how pointless it is to post. While you are posting just to make a value judgement on the the worth of other's posts - you could at least address the issue or even answer the following question.

Wolfgang et al - do you think that the routine deleting of entire threads and all their posts - to address a few posts judged to be 'offending' - is the best and fairest course of action to those Max has invited to contribute and who just happen to be unlucky to share this thread? And just because the volunteer in question "couldn't see spending much of my time sorting the wheat from the chaff?" [The full quote follows.] Do you think action should be taken to ensure that it does not happen again?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 06:01 PM

Wolfgang

I do use words that tend to exagerate the case probably as much as I have come to expect it to be automatically minimised by some, in turn.

I suspect that somewhere in between these two extremes, lies the truth and that most folk will realise this.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 06:06 PM

Behold the Lord High Executioner!

A personage of noble rank and title--

A dignified and potent officer,

Whose functions are particularly vital!

Defer, defer,

To the Lord High Executioner!

Defer, defer,

To the noble Lord, to the noble Lord,

The Lord High Executioner!

(Click)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 06:19 PM

The picture is you, to a T, Joe!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 08:05 PM

As someone who took a breather from this joint because of all the abusive posting, I'd encourage everyone to let this thread die from not so benign neglect. I haven't posted before and won't post again.

Some of us are moving on, positively and enjoying life. Why not join us? Hang some black crepe over your rear view mirror.

Jerry

---

Yeah, I think it's time to put this thread to bed. I should have closed it the day it started. If somebody must continue aspects of the discussion, please start a new thread - and try to keep it civil.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-