Do all musical acts have to sing?

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: JonnyDyer
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 10:40 AM

Ok ... so this thread is old now .... but I've been thinking (rare .. I know).

3 points.

1. Some listeners want songs. As a tune player, you know that you may exclude some clubs by not singing. This has nothing to do with "should*" for the perfomer ... its simple market forces ... and about balancing "specialising" against "breadth" ... doing what you want to do ... and doing what the pays the money (isn't that... broadly... prostitution?).

*.. just to qualify ... lotus have got on fine by not making any vans! They could widen their 'audience'by making vans..... so.. Should they make both? of course not. Might they want to? maybe one day.... probably not.

2.The great thing to try and achieve as a performer, surely, is variety. On the face of it, adding songs gives immediate variety ... but actually, for a tune enthusiast, the greatest challenge must be to get that variety out of what you have.... so songs is a bit of a cop out. Besides .... as has been noted before, bad singing wont support good playing all that much.

3. (here's my rant for the day. please take it at face value). What sort of listener-performer ownership means that someone can tell a performer to change what they do ... and therefore who they are.

I like products for some reasons ... and not others. I wouldn't dream of telling Lotus to make vans, or SonyEricsson that they would be a much better company if they made kettles ..... or Christie Moore that he'd sell more albums if he did Take That covers. Nope .... If I wanted the products, I'd buy them from someone who did make them.

So .... if you don't like just tunes; don't listen to a tune band. That's fine ... but please don't sit through a gig and then tell them that they should have sung you a song.

P.s, As a tune player, I'm learning songs and loving every minute of it. Why? 75% because I always wanted to. 25% for market forces. 0% because anyone told me I should.

Rant over.

Anyone got any advice for someone who's trying to sing but cannot remember more than three verses without collapsing in a gibbering heap?

Jonny

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 10:35 PM

The Chieftains almost always throw at least one song on each of their albums; gotta let Kevin do something besides beat his skin. ;)

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: kendall
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 08:35 PM

I prefer a mixture, but you can't throw rocks at the Chieftains.

My nephew says the hammered dulcimer sounds like a Japanese piano to him. Well, he plays Bluegrass. That explains it.

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 07:35 PM

Then there's the ones ya can't pin down either way.

"Don't mean a thing if you ain't gonna sing (doowop doowop doowop...)"

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 09:07 PM

Thread Summary so far:

Maybe, and maybe not.

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: Mart
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 09:49 AM

Personally I like instrumental only acts. Box and guitar can work well (look at Carr + Tweed). If you want to sing, sing, and if you don't, then don't. I can't see the point in singing badly if you play well, just for "variety".

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: Peace
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 01:46 AM

Seems like an offer ya can't refuse.

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: denise:^)
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 11:51 PM

There are certainly musical acts that I hope *never* sing...

(...and, Martin, a "hammer dulcimer" would be, of course, a dulcimer made of hammers. Highly impractical--which is probably why I've never seen one. I suspect you were referring to the "hammered dulcimer," which is, of course, a dulcimer played with hammers. And, yes, I play one, too...)

:^)

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 11:40 PM

Ah, now I know Marty The Troll Script Robot's dislike for hammered dulcimers, I will get mine out and practise it!

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: Alice
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 10:36 PM

Do what you do best, enjoy it, and others will, too. If you're not a good singer, don't sing. If you play well, then play!!

Alice

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 09:33 PM

I run away as fast as I can from the hammer dulcimer mafia.

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 02:29 PM

Interesting observation by Folkiedave about foreign-language vocals.

I think that the human voice is such a wonderful instrument and great vehicle for projecting the singer's humanity/personality that songs in a language the audience doesn't understand are just about as effective as any native-language song.

I don't always understand lyrics in English, for that matter, especially when hearing a new song for the first time, but I certainly respond to the singer's delivery to a depth that I rarely experience when listening to instrumentals.

Also, some of my favorite vocal performances feature silly/inane lyrics or completely meaningless "scat" -- Jesse Hill's "Ooh Pooh Pa Dooh," Professor Longhair's "Tipitina," Ernie K-Doe's "Ta Tee Tah Tah," Lee Dorsey's "Sittin' In La La (Waiting for My Ya Ya)"...

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 10:19 AM

Chariots of Fire
Love is Blue
Theme to Backdraft
Theme to Hill Street Blues

Sometimes the music says it all.

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:45 PM

People like to hear vocals; it's human nature. Instrumentals alone can seem a bit cold to an audience. Hell, even Chet Atkins tried singing once or twice.

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:46 PM

I agree with the earlier comment that a lot in a performance depends on where the heart of the performer is. I like a mixture of tunes and songs. If I'm at a gathering (informal) where there is only singing, I wind up wanting to play a tune or two. If it's just tunes, I want to sing something to break things up.

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: Bert
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:06 PM

But you have to say NEVER 'cos if you say it's OK sometimes then the buggers will do it all the time. *GRIN*

And what's even worse is those so called classical composers who take a dance tune and mess with the rhythm of it so your feet start moving under the seat and then oops - you can't even do that. Most annoying, especially when it is from people who are supposed to know something about music.

and ...Do singing acts have to stick in a few tunes?...
I hadn't thought of that JonnyDyer. If I ever get a gig on my own then I'll give it a try. I'd have to hire someone though.

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: GUEST,PoohBear
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 09:45 PM

IMHO, no, but I would also say that whether or not your audience will remain attentive depends on what they expect. Of course, some of us -i.e. me - have a better voice than guitar skills and so have the opposite problem of trying to inject some tunes into basically vocal sets. I have heard sets of tunes that were just as facinating as sets of vocals, but I think it had more to do with the choice of tunes as opposed to whether there were lyrics or not.
And Bert, I would be reluctant to admonish to NEVER put dance tunes in a set when dancing is not possible - but it certainly is a mean tease to do it!!
Cheers
PoohBear

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: JonnyDyer
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 07:33 PM

Do singing acts have to stick in a few tunes?

Probably as much as tune smiths need to add songs - and with the same basic criteria.

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 06:34 PM

I am a great fan of Spanish music and the virtuosity of Susannah Seivane, Berranguetto, and at this year's Sidmouth, Kepa Junkera showed that you don't even need English!!

Best regards,

Dave

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 02:57 PM

Amen to treewind, who summed up the whole discussion by observing that it's *personality* that needs to be included in a performance.

Singing is the usual way to inject one's personality (for better or worse), and it's usually almost foolproof in that regard, but I suppose it isn't necessarily the only way.

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: treewind
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 02:24 PM

Several people now have hinted that it's all about putting a personality across. Anyone who is inclined to sing is likely to be giving the audience more of themselves, just because a voice and words are literally more human than noises made on an instrument. If you only play tunes and don't say anything interesting in between you wont get far. If you play tunes and you can be entertaining in between, or even while you're playing, or if your playing is so stunningly good it creates real excitement, you can be successful.

In jazz the excitement comes from the fact that the players are improvising so they are 'on the edge' and creative every moment.
With Phil Cunningham and Aly bain it's the crack between the tunes - with Ali Anderson it's the chat and the way he plays - with classical music it's the complexity of the music itself - with Vicki and Johnny it's the goofing around between, the comparative novelty of the pipes and the excellence of playing (both of you!).

After watching these people play you feel you know them personally.
It makes up for the lack of narrative in song.

My €0.02's worth
Anahata

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: Bert
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 02:22 PM

That's a great idea Marje - find yourself a guest singer or two.

And another thing if you play only instrumentals, NEVER - EVER play dance tunes unless the event is a dance. There is nothing worse in the whole world than for a dancer to hear dance music and not be able to get up and dance to it.

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: kitchen piper
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:41 PM

I was having a conversation with a guy that was at a folk club gig we played at recently. (This is post gig by some months). He didn't remember that we only played tunes all night, he was sure that we must have sung some songs. Was this because we kept his attention with the stories inbetween the tunes, or because we treat our tunes as if they were songs. Who knows. I was very chuffed by his comment anyway.
We are adding songs to our repertoire for next season, but that's because we want to sing and not because other people want us to.
I find it hard to listen to lyrics anyway, it's the melody, chords and accompaniment that keeps my attention. I do remember though at a session recently singing along to a song that a friend of mine was singing and the guy leading it turning round and saying, "that was very nice but this is tune session and we're meant to be playing tunes that we can all join in with". we can't win really, songs or tunes!
:-))
Vicki

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: Marje
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:23 PM

It looks from the comments so far as if most people prefer to hear the occasional song in a set.That's how I feel myself, and also what I've noticed in informal pub sessions - the non-participating public often ask for songs and show more interest when there's singing.

But I think it would be a mistake for a musical duo to sing just because they think it's required. Not-very-good or half-hearted singing is probably worse than none at all, and might just undermine your credibility as musicians. It would be better, I'd say, to invite a singer to join you and do a couple of numbers in each set (assuming you're doing club-length sets of, say, 40 mins). There are plenty of good singers who'd jump at the chance of singing with a competent accompaniment (Well, there's me, for one...). If you're just talking about short floor-spots, instrumental music on its own should be fine, as the MC can introduce some singing before or after.

Marje

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:26 PM

I'm a big fan of all instrumental recordings. But on my years as a concert committee member for a Northern Illinois organization, I was hard pressed to think of many groups that I would vote on to play that was all instrumental. The audience seemed to like a mixture. Even some of the all instrumental performers mentioned above have some engaging between tune stage patter to make the show flow. I know from hanging around some of the hammer dulcimer mafia, that some folks will not buy recordings that have singing on them, but that's a different market.

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: freightdawg
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:13 PM

Leo Kottke is a tremendous solo guitar player that has his audience captivated with his instrumentals. However, he does the odd little bit of humor in between pieces, and, after a few instrumental pieces, he does sing! No one, I can safely say, would place Kottke in the realm of truly great vocalists. But the charm of his vocals, after he has lit the place up with his guitar playing, is wonderful. And the placement of his vocals in his set has the additional benefit of making the audience more receptive to his songs. Kottke knows what his strength is. His audience knows what his strength is. But I would be disappointed to go to another Kottke concert and not hear him sing.

Definitely play to your strength, but don't be afraid to mix in some vocals as well. You might be surprised how well they are received.

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 04:48 PM

GUEST of 02:43 today, I stand corrected -- more or less.

I completely forgot about opera as a subset of classical music, and I certainly should have mentioned jazz as well as (orchestral) classical as TWO genres where vocals are not necessarily expected.

On the other hand, I see Duane Eddy and the great John Fahey as exceptions that *prove* the general rule.

As many participants seem to have agreed, the answer to the thread-title question is: All musical acts don't HAVE to sing, but they'll find it easier to please a wider audience (i.e., to get more gigs) if they introduce at least a few vocal numbers.

Plus which, if they give it a try, some players might discover that it's a lot of fun to sing!

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 04:33 PM

I'd rather have tunes than singing any day, whether live or recorded, although I like listening to a good song now and again.

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 04:29 PM

Phil Cunningham and Aly Bain play to packed houses every time they tour, either at home and abroad, and I have yet to hear either of them sing a note (certainly not at any concert I have attended).

As stated above, they make up for the lack of vocals by witty and seemingly spontaneous interplay, which totally captivates the audience.

Tony McManus is another virtuoso guitarist who doesn't sing.

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 04:26 PM

I saw Na Fili at sidmouth and was less than knocked out. I think there will be clubs that are interested in booking you, but somehow I doubt it if you will make a living unless you have a crossover hit that makes you famous. Do you have anything that catchy? Either way we all have to abide by what the public wants - there is no moral imperative to book acts because of their artistic excellence.

If you get the nod of approval from influential djs like Mike Harding and John Peel - that is another way of confounding all these cynics.

Best of luck with your career anyway.

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: mooman
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 03:44 PM

Absolutely not! But if there is no singer it is even more important to ensure there is a good connection and rapport with the audience.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 03:14 PM

The first act I ever saw that never included a song was Na Fili and they were wonderful. Alistair Anderson still does not include any songs (though he does do at least one monologue).

Best regards,

Dave

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:43 PM

Classical music is expected to instrumental.

Yeah, especially the operas.

Folk: John Fahey never sang and I don't recall that he ever backed a singer.

Jazz: Wynton Marsalis never sings.

Rock 'n' Roll: Duane Eddy never sang.

There are exapmles in every genre.

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:33 PM

Classical music is expected to instrumental. However, audiences generally expect some vocals as part of the performance in most other genres --- certainly rock and pop, and usually for folk music as well.

There *are* folk traditions, of course, which emphasize intrumental tunes. I think, however, that all-instrumental programs are less likely to be accepted in a "sit-down" concert setting than for, say, a well-informed group of folk dancing enthusiasts.

I'd advise Charley F & company to try singing; maybe a couple of group members will take to it more readily than others. You don't have to have a beautiful or a "trained" voice, as long as you convey your enthusiasm and your love of the music.

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:19 PM

An alternative to singing that a lot of instrumentalists use is story-telling between tunes. It breaks up the monotony and gives the audience members' picking receptors a chance to recharge. Some of the best guitarists I've seen perform don't sing a lick but are excellent and engaging story-tellers. Ed Gerhard, Richard Gilewitz, Richard Leo Johnson and harp-guitarist John Doan come to mind.

Problem is that unless one is just a natural-born story-teller it's difficult to pull off effectively. It needs to seem natural and unrehearsed, a goal which, paradoxically, can only be accomplished by lots of rehearsal. It also needs to be free of excessive rambling, have some connection to the music, and not come off as just a bunch of jokes delivered by a failed stand-up comedian.

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:05 PM

You can put together an entertaining concert of instrumental music, classical musicians do it all the time--the trick is in finding material that is entertaining to your audience--The singer's advantage is that they always have the the lyrics to keep the audiences attention--

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: Chris Green
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 01:55 PM

Sticking my neck out here but I always skip past vocal tracks by the Bothy Band because I find them boring. Not the songs themselves, but the way they're performed!

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 01:22 PM

But he gets other people to sing his stuff Ms. Lemon!

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 01:06 PM

Not all musical act sing. Les Barker doesn't!

Sal

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 01:00 PM

I love to see good musianship, but nothing is as wonderful as tight vocal harmonies.

Also, I think people still like to sing along with folk music. It's a great way to get your audience involved.

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 12:57 PM

Teresa: that's funny, I'm absolutely the opposite. My house is full to bursting of recordings of people just playing tunes, but at a live gig my attention does tend to start to wander if there isn't a song or two every now and again.

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: Teresa
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 12:53 PM

I have my own personal preferences, but I have seen lots of recordings with songs and also lots of instrumentals in the folk world. I think it just depends on setting, audience, and personal taste. For instance, I like to see instrumentalists live, but rarely buy recordings with no singing. that's just my own quirks.
T

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: treewind
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 12:51 PM

I recently met one partner of an accomplished duo of musicians who have virtually given up because they aren't getting gigs, because they don't sing. In fact - previous posting from "Blowzabella".... now there's a coincidence!

Anahata

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 12:06 PM

I'm sorry but I would think that in a duo with just two instruments (melodeon and guitar you say) you would need to be extraordinarily accomplished to not need to vary that a bit with the addition of some vocals.

Where bands have (say) more members - more instruments - or more members who play several instruments and can therefore vary the sound, you might just manage it but even then, I would say the odd bit of vocalisation wouldn't go amiss. As has been said above, you don't need to be a perfect singer but many audience members can simply enjoy either following the story in a ballad, enjoying the wittiness of a skit of a more well-known song or simply joinging in a chorus. You're kind of leaving them out of it a bit if you don't let them join in and it might seem a bit, as has been said before, as if you are entertaining yourselves and not pushing to entertain them.

It's entirely up to you of course to decide what product you want to offer and then see how much demand there is for it. At the end of the day it is as simple as that really. Good luck.

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: wilco
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 11:23 AM

IMHO, it depends on the venue. In the mountains of East Tennessee (USA), audiences expect you to mix-it-up. Our group is very fluid, with different people all the time, and we work out play lists that emphasize and showcase the specific skills of the performers.   
    This is very common in old time and bluegrass music, where different instrumentalists will take the lead, take breaks, harmonize, etc. The same skills come from the singers. The tricky part is to split the set equitably so that each of the performers get equal time, and, at the same time, entertain the audience.
    With instrumentalists' bands here, with no singing, they often seem to be entertaining either themselves or the other musicians, which makes for a small crowd (usually).
    Wilco in USA

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 10:42 AM

Sorry, I became momentarily cookieless. That was me, the last GUEST.

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 09:45 AM

I play in a band that has to deal with this problem, in that we play a lot of tunes, which is probably what we're most known for, but we do do songs as well, and our lead fiddler Kate Barfield is also a well-respected singer.Basically, we do the obvious thing, we play more tunes if we're playing for dancing, but include more songs if there are a lot of listeners in the audience. I love fiddle tunes, and each one has a different character and charm for me. But I have to face the fact that to 90% of audiences, a fiddle tune is a fiddle tune. All the tunes occupy the same pigeon hole in the mind, labelled "fiddle tune". That's the way it is, and performers need to adjust to the facts of life. If you're going to leave out songs, you must have some very compellingly interesting arrangements for your instrumentals!

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 09:19 AM

Personally I enjoy having some songs included in the set.

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 09:11 AM

In the Flamenco world, the singers are paid the most, with dancers second, and guitarists coming third.

Subject: RE: Do all musical acts have to sing?
From: Snuffy
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 09:06 AM

I think there's a widespread conception in the public at large that intrumentalists are merely ancilliary to the main activity: they are OK if they play to support the dancers, or play to support the singers. Otherwise they're just a set of nerds playing for their own amusement and not worthy of much attention from the rest of us.

Unjust? Maybe. But it's just a hard fact of life. How many instrumentals make the charts?