This Forum & American Folk Music

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:33 PM

I got pretty bummed out contributing about Spirituals, since people who I thought should have known better kept ignoring the work a number of us had done, and continued asking and posting ignorant stuff in that and other threads. I sorta just transferred the energy to other off-Mudcat stuff, tho I think I will resume work on the project at some point and I am glad it all sits here, available. There are still only 24 hours in a day.

~Susan

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:40 PM

Another option I recall and can recommend is looking at the music thread list periodically and refreshing interesting stuff that's about to fall off the daily list.

Because--

Sometimes a thread with fewer than 10 posts just does not look interesting enough to people and they don't open it and contribute, but a thread that keeps landing on the top of the list will often be opened out of curiosity.

Also, a lot of the knowledgable members are not here every day, so if the thread falls off, they don't tend to see it.

Other past options that can be very productive are that if one is taking a break from BS or from one's own music interests-- the well running dry for examle-- spending a few minutes opening and answering lyric requests can lead to some interesting places for oneself, AND add to the interest in the forum. A little Googling for somoene else's request(s) can be a good thing.

~Susan

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: lucky_p
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:08 PM

Folk music performance in America has its home primarily non-commercial establishments: churches, community organizations, art centers, etc., and some backrooms of bars. I don't really understand why this is so, and have been wondering about this for years -- I believe the young people really listened to it -- to wit, it was on MTV or the radio -- they would love it. Witness the commercial rise in America of Tracey Chapman and Suzanne Vega, both of whom got their start in backrooms of bars.

I think it's very hard for folk music, particularly traditional folk music, to find a home in America because we live now in an increasingly techno video time filled with flashy loud imagery. Folk music is the antithesis of that: it speaks to low tech intimacy around the camp fire, it speaks to deep yearnings for community, for the pleasures of working together for a goal, rather than all important rugged individual/master of the universe. In short, it is inherently a low tech, hand made genre; and we live a time that values high tech, machine made culture.

I don't know what the answer is. I do think that the world would be a far better place with more folk music and less gangsta rap. More folk music and less Madonna. More folk music and less Britney Spears.

For our friends across the pond: here are a few American beauties in the field of folk music (all have web sites): Robin Greenstein, Jack Hardy, David Roth (not David Lee Roth), Richard Shindell.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:20 PM

What an excellent thread, and topic! There have been SO many reponses since last evening, most of them quite intelligent and all of them interesting.

I guess Martin Gibson isn't such a bad guy, after all -- whatcha think, gang?

VERY glad to see Jerry Rasmussen's name as part of this. I heard he quit -- but I also predicted he'd be back. Wasn't so sure it would be this soon, though...

If indeed all the good topics have already been discussed, let's do 'em again! Many of us are still relatively new and might have missed a few discussions the first time around

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:26 PM

Lucky P - Tracy Chapman and Suzanne Vega are hardly commercial successes. Especially in 2004. Each have had a few tunes that crept into the pop charts over the years, but today they are playing to the same audience that listens to the artists you mentioned at the end of your note.

I have a 14 year old daughter who listens to pop music. The closest to "folk" that she listens to is Jason Mraz. You can't force people to listen, there needs to be a reason. Chapman and Vega made it attractive at one point.

I think we have to be less concerned with "selling" the music and more concerned with "making" the music. There were very specific reasons why there was a folk music revival on both sides of the Atlantic and you can't artificially create a scene. Even though the media is accused of creating pop stars, there are more complex reasons why a Madonna or Brittany Spears makes it big.

You can't predict the spot when a meteor will hit again.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 02:49 PM

PoppaGator

No I'm not such a bad guy after all. I've been making music long before I could vote.

If people who claim to be open minded would just accept reasoning and an outlook that is different from their own................well enough of that.

Music is my first love. It is a passion, and 40+ years of playing it and studying it would give me plenty of opportunity to share some things about what I know something about.

That's kind of what led me to start this thread.
thanks to all for a lot of good responses.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 02:58 PM

Martin, as for me, I never thought you were a bad guy. I may not always agree with you, but I love the way you are direct and honest. I remember some of the first posts that I read from you were dealing with country music. It is obvious that you know what you are talking about and you are passionate about music - and other things.

This was and is a great thread. I do wish there was more discussion about American folk music, but we should also remember that it is still summertime and most Americans are traveling around the country checking out festivals and ENJOYING folk music in all it's various forms. Maybe when the weather turns cooler we will start seeing some great American threads about what kind of hammer John Henry used, the proper length of strings on dulcimers, Tom Dula's favorite color, and other esoteric American folk topics!

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 03:34 PM

Well MG I'll tellya what, if you have any gospel treasures lurking around, I want 'em, so post away. And I'll want to HEAR 'em, too, cuz if they are good songs I will want to learn them. Of course if you sent me a CD there is a good chance I would figure out who you are, but altho I am armed I am not usually dangerous. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: jimmyt
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 03:38 PM

Brings up an interesting story.(at least to me) My group was performing at the Mountain Opry recently on SIgnal Mtn Tennessee, a neat venue for anyone close enough to check it out. Predominately bluegrass music, sign in sheet, every group gets a half hour, etc/


Well we had never performed there before, and when we did Reubin James, TOm Dooley, MTA, Settledown, Don't think Twice and Leavin' on a Jet Plane along with a couple Irish standards, (ROddy Mc COrley was one of them) We had a terrific response from a packed house. THe folks had never heard a whistle played in a song before, hadn't heard most of this music since the 60s, and although it was not their standard music, they loved our harmonies, and were generally very positive about it.

ONe guy, though singled me out and wanted to argue that this was not, in fact, folk music, and we had no right to advertise that it was. I gently tried to suggest that the songs we had sung were many from the 60s but had origins long before then is some cases. He was just adamant about it. (While the guitars were tuning before Tom Dooley, I was just filling with mindless drivel. and started off on a tangent about our last song was an Irish Tune also, called Tom O'Dooley. I made it very clear to the audience that I was joking, at least I thought) ...and as this guy made his parting shot, "Oh, and not only is your music not folk music, that Tom O'Dooley is not even an Irish song!" "Your correct, sir, that was a joke".

What in the hell would make someone go off like that?" I have not enjoyed music before but would never consider going up and making a big deal about it? I guess I just don't understand what makes some people tick. Rant over! It is interesting that the other three members got nothing but praise and when I told them what this guy said, the didn't believe me

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: jimmyt
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 04:48 PM

Apologize for the thread creep! I am kind of random today.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 06:38 PM

I would cetainly agree that for quite some time, the announcement threads about who is playing where, or about specific folk clubs' activities, or specific sessions, singarounds, and festivals have proliferated, and that the UK events seem to be there in much greater numbers.

So I would propose some enterprising Brit might take over the "What's On" permathread now that Bert no longer works at Mudcat Central and is not online enough to maintain it.

Volunteers for THAT job might contact Joe Offer.

~Susan

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Maryrrf
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 07:51 PM

I'm an American but the old American ballads led me to investigate their ancestors - from England, Scotland and Ireland. So I'm glad both are discussed on Mudcat. I enjoy keeping up with the UK music scene on Mudcat so I don't mind the UK "Who's playing where" threads. I seldom post on Mucat even when I have a question because, while I appreciate the information and knowledge here there is also a lot of sarcasm and nastiness and one never knows what will set it off. I've actually composed pretty long posts and then just deleted them and not posted because I was afraid something I said would elicit cutting criticism, nasty remarks or some kind of controversy, even if it was just an opinion. That might make me sound like a wimp (after all, this is cyberspace and not real life) but I have to deal with enough cranky cantankerous relatives and co-workers and I just don't want to get into it. I'm glad both sides of the Atlantic are well represented, I just wish there wasn't so much bickering. Not accusing anyone on this thread, by the way, and now I'll go back to my lurking.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Joybell
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 08:36 PM

I've got fairly recent - (like 160 years back) roots in the UK, an American husband, had a Kiwi mother, and I'm an Aussie. So I find I've got things to learn and things to contribute on many music threads. I also have a passionate interest in British and American folklore.
Mudcat for me is the coffee-shop I always wanted to go to to talk deep talk and learn to play the wise and witty fool. I never knew how you got in. Here I suspect there are others who never got behind the green door either.
Off the track a bit but it seemed relevant there for a while until I got to rambling again.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 08:45 PM

JimmyT:

Next time, just ask him to explain what folk music is. Then thank him VERY much for clarifying things!! LOL!


A

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 08:58 PM

Much to my chagrin, many people I talk with give me a bovine expression when I tell them I play folk music. They usually ask, "What is that?" They aren't engaging in Mudcat polemics here.. or Polecat polemics. They don't have a clue what I'm talking about. The 60's were a lonnnnnnnnnng time ago. I suppose that response is far preferable to scrinching up their nose and going eeeewwwwww!

Maybe we're just too obsessed with labels in this country.

If I just play the songs, they usually like them. And then they'll say... "Oh, that's what folk music is?"

Jerry

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: lucky_p
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 09:50 PM

Jerry,

I see your point, except that folk music, particularly its "roots" element (i.e., union songs, songs of the civil war/revolutionary war, songs of the westward migration, women's songs, freedom songs, field hollars, appalachian banjo and fiddle tunes, cajun culture, sea chanteys, and the list goes on) -- this not tin pan alley and it is not popular music (except the "singer-songwriters" who are really performing popular music, and while much of it I do like, it is not "folk music.") Folk music has a social and political agenda, always has. It has a life beyond the words and melody and harmony. It's a political statement when the expectation is that the audience will be encouraged to sing along with the performer, as peers, as part of the performance, rather than the performer singing for a passive, silent audience. In short, there are many special dimensions and characteristics of folk music that sets it apart from other forms of music and, I believe, elevates it in some ways like traditional jazz and blues -- other "homemade" music. And it should be proud of itself for that distinction, and promoted as such, and represent an artistic/musical bulwark against the violence and ignorance and cheapness of so much of popular music/popular culture today.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: InOBU
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:07 PM

Hey, I am an American Mudcatter... sort of... just no one gives a damn about what I have to say about anything... but we're here... as Phil Ochs said, singing in the face of crule men... we're the folks you don't hear on the radio (exept for Ron Olesko and WABI - )
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:26 PM

lucky p

Folk music does not always have to have a social and political agenda. Personally, it is that part of folk music, especially the political part that I really don't like. Tight vocal harmonies and nice picking are much more my style. I also kind of think it is more of the style many American's prefer.

Now I really did not want to have this thread degenerate into another "what is folk" thread.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:31 PM

Hello=
Maybe its becuse England is bigger than america, and there is more of us here?

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Joybell
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 07:30 AM

I'm right with you Martin Gibson, but I'll leave it at that so as not to encourage more thread-creep. Joy

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 07:34 AM

Many thanks to the Emeritus Professor of Geography and Demography at Hull University, for setting us straight on a few basic points.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 08:31 AM

Another yeah, not to limit folk music to political and sociological songs. For people who aren't in the folk community, those are the songs that are least likely to "go over" when I perform, unless it's something with humor, like Penny's Farm or John Johanna.

Jerry

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 08:49 AM

Martin--

Excellent thread--

A couple of possibilities--

As has been pointed out many times already on the thread, distances are much more substantial in the US---makes it a lot more difficult for folkies to get together.

This is by definition a forum about words. It's possible that a lot of bluegrass and country perfomers ( and possibly fans) either are naturally laconic ( there's a long and honored tradition of that) or just don't want to discuss their music in the kind of depth that often happens here. Added to that, discussions of who wrote a song are less likely on this side of the pond, since it's usually known (even slightly controversial songs like "Darcy Farrow" and "Long Black Veil" have now been dealt with).

Also, there is absolutely no US festival that compares with Sidmouth as to numbers of Mudcatters who attend, with Whitby also likely in this category. Particularly now, it may seem there's an obsession with these two, but they have just finished and they come just about right on top of each other. There's also a lot of concern particularly with Sidmouth, since from being one year perhaps the biggest folk festival in Europe, it's suddenly unclear what the future holds at all--it's essential to keep it going next year as "just the fringe"-- which is actually some of the best music-making in the world--in order that the full festival start up again in 2006.

I have a lot more to say on this great topic, but have to get ready to go to Eastern
Pennsylvania to a Folk Song Weekend--to do stuff like sing and play parodies, continue my struggle, with like-minded others, against the RUS "hymn sing approach", and sing sea songs while swimming in the pond--now that's good exercise. Besides, I'm getting flak here at home--she says I'm doing too much "Mudcatting around" (as Flatt and Scruggs
might say).

Bye for now.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: GUEST,John Hardly
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 09:46 AM

'mericans, like me, are much more likely to care less about the hard edged lines of folk/non-folk.

We not only accept the same blurred edges that our best folk musicians accept -- we revel in them. We love our Sam Bushes who play bluegrass, jazz and rock 'n' roll. We love our Tim O'Briens who play bluegrass, swing, old-timey and celtic. We love our Tony Rices who play jazz and bluegrass. We love our folk mixed well with blues. We love the best of our singer-songwriters who, like Pierce Pettis, Peter Mulvey, LJ Booth, Jack Williams, Cheryl Wheeler, et al, who aren't afraid to marry the best of rock and even pop to make a song more listenable, more interesting, more moving.

We blur our lines and we like it that way...

...but when we blur the lines here (on mudcat) there's always some folk nazi here to remind us that we just don't "get it". And it's not that we are insecure about our eclectic tastes -- we just tire of that very old discussion -- even if we accept a "provenance" as opposed to "style" view of "folk" music.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 05:12 PM

Excellent way of putting it John Hardly.

Is it that we are just less uptight about it all? More flexible?

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 05:15 PM

The US touring folkie pro's are often farther away from home than their UK counterparts, with much more ground to cover beween gigs. So, less posting time. UK performing-pro Mudcatters just seem to post oftener than, say, Jed Marum or Seamus Kennedy.

~Susan

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: John Hardly
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 04:07 PM

Y'know, just possibly there's another reason that specifically the mudcat 'mericans don't talk as much about 'merican folk music...

Age.

It struck me as almost phenomenal that at nearly 50 I was young for this site.

The American folk music scene -- when taken as broadly including singer-songwriters, bluegrass, old-timey and actual folk music is as vibrant today as it has ever been -- maybe even eclipsing the folk scare of the 60s. Sure, we don't get played on top 40 radio these days, but what does?

We sell more recordings than ever before.
We have bigger festivals and more of them
We have radio programs dedicated to folk -- many to specific styles.

But this is where the age of the mudcat comes in...

...what we seem to lack is the older generation taking an interest in what the young ones are doing. The American mudcat represents a very old demographic --- one that is still arguing whether or not it is acceptable to listen to the Kingston Trio. The older ones here are adamantly protecting what is left of the folk world that was vibrant when they were more actively participating.

But the older among us here are also, on the whole, more articulate. They tell better stories and at one time showed the care to share that kind of stuff here -- the younger enjoyed it but, by coincidence, serendipity, whatever, the younger ones who have come and gone didn't find a reciprocal interest in what they had to say.

The music didn't sound the same.

Just another guess.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 09:29 PM

Folks, I'm here. Never left. And, Susan, thanks for the unique kids book.
Chris, I will be at Fox Valley Folk Fest over Labor Day. Hope it's not too wet there for my wheels.

About this good thread: I do better writing out info when I know someone is looking for specific things I, surprisingly, might have info on. That is why I like to add my two cents into threads on a topic I might know a bit about. (See the "Who Is Steve Goodman" thread.)I rarely start threads because I am not a self-motivator. I like what I like and when I say those things I sincerely beleieve to be the truth of what folk music "IS" I piss off the MGs among us. So, realizing, I won't change minds out there by being strident myself, I've chosen to avoid those threads. Mainly those are the BS threads of late. --- But where I can be helpful, I will be here.

Thanks for "all the good people" out there and in here at Mudcat. It's a good thing to check back with you all. I do hate it when one of you dies, so please quit doing that. ;-)

Art Thieme
(P.S.---A new CD from some older tapes of mine will be coming out some day soon--thanks to the good work of Dennis Cook in Maryland. To be called CHICAGO TOWN AND POINTS WEST, please consider this just a warning--and a rather blatent plug as well.---Sandy Paton is involved in this as well.)

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 10:03 PM

I do hate it when one of you dies, so please quit doing that. ;-)


OK, let's all take the pledge!

:~)

~S~

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Peace
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 10:06 PM

In many ways, the 'definition' of folk--not something I care to tackle--influences the responses people give to questions. When it is a directly-related "history" question, things can be fairly unequivocal and answers are right, wrong or might be. The pursuit of scholarship most often precludes side trips down Flame Alley. However, the fragmentation of music into categories (is House of the Rising Sun by the Animals still a folk song?) causes people who work in specialty areas to focus IN those areas. And we got lotsa areas out there.

I always thought Martin was a good guy, and I look forward to hearing him play sometime in the next year or so. My own musical quests tend to lean more to 'folk/rock' kinda stuff, but I love good music regardless how it's been actegorized, and nothing beats a great performance by any master of his/her art/craft.

Good thread, Martin.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: jimmyt
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 10:07 PM

Art, Let me say how much I appreciate your posts. There are really quite a lot of folks like you, Jerry Rasmussen, and yes, Martin Gibson who have been kicking around this folk music world for a long time and it is fascinating to get you guys' insight about what has happened over the last few decades of American folk music. Please keep making your contributions. People are listening and learning. jimmyt

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: jimmyt
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 10:45 PM

I just refreshed an old thread. It is the first thread I started here, and it has lots of very good comments by some of the greats of mudcat. Art, Jerry, Mudlark, Don Firth, Deckman, Amos, MTed, etc. I think it is worth a read. Hope you enjoy it.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 11:21 PM

My Dear Fine Art,

I won't, if you won't (die that is!).:-)

Your postings are ALWAYS well-worth time spent and very informative. Who cares if you piss off the MG's of the world; they've not proven themselves worthy, anyway.

luvyakat

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: mg
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 01:31 AM

I love reading about the events in Hull and elsewhere. I participate sort of vicariously. I read about the ferry schedules and the sleeping arrangements and food at the pub. It's like reading a travel brochure. I also think it is very important to publicize our own events, like Sunnycamp etc.....these are extremely fun, often quite inexpensive, ways to sing all weekend with nice people....the more dots we connect throughout the world and in our own areas, the better off we all are. And you never know, someone from afar could be traveling at exactly that moment and decide to join you. mg

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:28 PM

I've been studying folk music for over fifty years and I've come to the conclusion that I really don't quite know what it is. So, it's the music, words. culture and history that are important to me.

I have tried to approach it from a musical standpoint. Tried to learn to play it, see what makes it tick from the standpoint of harmony, melody, modes, rhythm, counterpoint, vocal and instrumental.

I used to think that it was a form of expression that was somehow separate from other forms of music, and now I don't believe that anymore. I hear jazz in the blues, blues in the appalachian songs and bluegrass, country sounds in the blues, popular music in the ballads (even the trad ones), minstrel tunes in bluegrass and old timey, American banjo playing in Irish music, Irish keening in mountain ballads, minor singing against the major chords of the hymns, religious in the secular and secular in the religious. I hear folk in the rock music, African music in Motown and Hip Hop, and now Hip Hop is all over the world. I hear be bop in B.B. and down home blues in Bird. I hear the wailing of Indian shanai in Coltrane. Scott Joplin, Jelly Roll Morton, Fats Waller and James P. Johnson in Mississipi John Hurt, Rev. Gary Davis and Big Bill.
I hear thirteenth chords and diminished chords in Pete's banjo. I hear the "concert artists" such as Jean Ritchie and Redpath following a traditional classical music pattern of performing for paying audiences. Doc Watson plays "Over the Rainbow" and Rockabilly when he does his accoustic country counterpoint. I hear Jimmy Rodgers and Texas Gladden in his singing. Also Ernest Tubbs. I hear the Golden Gate Quartet and Dixie Hummingbirds in the Bluegrass gospel music. "It Is No Secret", a Gospel hymn by Stuart Hamblin, a Country/Western singer (when they had that category) was a staple of African-American gospel churches. I hear old English parlor songs in the Carter Family and some vaudeville numbers there too.

In short, I no longer believe that there is one clear path to American folk music. It's a big stew and the solution to the problem of learning it is to study how it's been used in the extraordinarilly various ways. Sometimes, a genre creeps in that seems definitive and then that is shown to be influenced by something else. A solution to it's study for me has been to learn how so and so does it and look to the background and history of the song or tune.

The person that tries to keep folk music pure is tilting at windmills. As human beings in geneology, we are all said to be descendents of Halfdan the Warty and Erik the Fart but I think we probably go back to preZinganthropus in the Oldavai Gorge in Africa. Music follows our species in the same way, a long river with myriad tributaries.

There is no pure English, Irish, American, Scottish or any other national or international music but there are elements that we recognize and honor. They can be studied, played, sung and enjoyed with the rigors of learning any musical discipline through notes or without notes. The artists that we admire have cultivated a craft through spending a lot of time at it and whatever it turns out to be reflects that sincerity, conviction and perspicacity that it takes to learn it.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:32 PM

Wonderful posting, Frank!

Jerry

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: lucky_p
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 08:14 PM

This is great! I'm just so grateful and enamored that there is at least small cadre of people interested in discussing these matters. Thank you all for rendering some humility to this bespectacled old Jewish radical (should be) grannie who imagines herself as a combination Madame Defarge, Malvina Reynolds, and Mother Jones.

Peace,

lucky

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: jimmyt
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 09:54 PM

Frank, you pretty much summed it all up. Next time someone whines about "that's not really folk music" or " What is folk music?" we can just say, "Ask Frank"

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Peace
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 10:08 PM

Ditto what jimmyt said.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 11:44 AM

Thank you JimmyT and Jerry. When I hear the great artists of American music I am so grateful that I live in a time where we can avail ourselves of this music on CD and the net. It is easier today to learn to play the banjo, guitar, or ? then it ever was. I remember searching in my younger days for someone who could show me something on the five-string in Los Angeles of the early fifties. There were not that many around. I ran across Eddie Mann who showed me how to play a basic strum. Pete Seeger's book was not widely available at that time. And he hadn't modified or updated it yet. No one in L.A. in the folk circles I was traveling in knew much about Earl Scruggs or Don Reno. If you wanted to learn the blues, you had to travel into the black community and search out the players such as K.C. Douglas in Richmond, Calif. or Jesse Fuller. Lightning Hopkins and Thunder Smith were playing on Central Avenue in downtown L.A. but it was not as accessible to a white kid although I have to say whenever I visited Watts to meet with some musical jazz friends, I was treated very well, with manners and tolerance.
Today we have videos and now DVD's of our favorite artists and can learn in the living room and jam with all kinds of interested musicians.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 11:49 AM

Hear, hear! That should be displayed somewhere prominent, Frank! Thank you!

lucky, welcome to the Mudcat. Sounds like a good *combo* to me!

kat

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 09:56 PM

Art, who says you piss me off?

Oh, I guess the MG you were referring to was Mary Garvey.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: GUEST,Art Thieme...
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 01:01 AM

... freshly back from listening to ALL the previously mentioned music types and styles at the great and venerable Fox Valley Folk Fesival. My batteries are now fully charged.

Martin Gibson, I didn't see you there at Fox Valley -- so I ate your funnel cake. ;-)

Frank, I may have mentioned I got to take one lesson from you at the OTSFM, and then you joined the Weavers. It was the last formal lesson I ever took. After that it was piecemeal---bits and pieces from folks all over the U.S.A. ---! Back then it was obvious to me what a gift it was to have that single lesson from a master. (What you showed the group that day in Chicago was how to pick Pete's "Livin' In The Country" as it was picked by the two of you on your LP called Nonesuch--on Folkways. Thanks so much for what you showed me way back then, and also, now, in your good post. The cream does rise to the top !!!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 01:59 AM

I would like to make a comment and defend the posting of whats on threads.

I have been running my folkclub for a little over 6 months and it has proved to be very succesful.
The many varied artists who appear give up their time free (mostly) to make this club succesful and push their music out to the people of this area. They also stay and listen to the other artists. Normally about 7 or 8 artists on per evening.
I also put a lot of time into ensuring that each evenings events are a pleasant and enjoyable evening for all who attend. Again all for free.

If I don't get the audience in, then I don't survive. So I see nothing wrong in trying to make other mudcatters aware of when my Folk evenings are on.

So please wise up, you guys who may think my postings are misplaced.

Since opening up this club, I have seen so much excellent local talent come through the doors - its just amazing.

A number of them are appearing on a Charity Cd that Lincolnshire will be pushing out shortly.

So, I know that I rely on artists very much to make my club, but sometimes I think some of you artists don't appreciate what efforts Club organisers go to, to ensure that your music is heard.

If you don't or cannot attend my folk club, which is Market Rasen Folk Club - http://www.marketrasenfolkclub.co.uk

then you don't have to read my threads, but I can tell you there is an awful lot of time and effort and pride that goes into all of this and I want to share it with anybody who wants to take an interest.
You never know, you may just be in the area one day, and wherever posible, I will do my best to give you a floorspot of 20 minutes.

Oh and incidentally, I have learned a lot from what all of you guys and gals posts. Mudcat is an excellent forum. :-)

This is not meant to be a gripe or moaning post, just trying to put my side.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 11:14 PM

Mary Garvey and Villan are dead right. There's no reason for American Mudcatters to, as the UK "Catters say, "get their knickers in a twist". It is in fact not only a vicarious travelogue to read the postings regarding pub schedules etc. but also good info. I suspect a lot of US Mudcatters would like to or perhaps already have visited some UK and Irish pubs. It's always good to know what they're like, 'pub etiquette', problems, and especially the best ones to get to. If Americans feel their interests are being slighted, they can post notices of their own gatherings, as Mary Garvey has done.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 03:42 PM

Thank you Kat and Art.

Art, although I thank you for your compliment, I realize that you are so talented that you would have learned anything I had to teach you eventually anyway.

I am grateful to have been there for you at that time, though.

It's always a privilege to show something to appreciative and talented people.
It's a special kind of reward. I think that Susan would agree.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 04:19 PM

Frank, I have your excellent piece *saved* for anytime someone asks "what is folk!" It is pure poetry; I read it aloud to family and friends last night and it just rolls off the tongue...you have a real cadence going there that's just brilliant. Thanks, again.

I agree with Ron, Mary and Villan...as an American, I love to read what's going on all over, including the UK. Sometimes it makes me a bit wistfull because I cannot be there, but I love to read about it and look at the pictures. It's great to put faces and words to names. Goodonya, The Villan!

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: DonMeixner
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 10:31 PM

Brilliant Frank.

The is one constant I find in folk music is not the melody or song because they are changeable and changing. The second someone plays a song on a guitar he first heard on a banjo and sings it without the words in front of him the song has changed. I think the tradition of traditional music is this change and there oin lies the beauty of folkmusic to me.

The one unchanging part of the tradition is the singing. Not the "what" is being sung but the act of singing itself. The somgs will change overtime and go from endearing to unacceptable and back again in a few generations. But someone is always singing them. I think thats where B.B. gets the Bop and Doc gets the Swing.

Great thread Martin, I think we are just in a "All British" "All MOnth" kinda twist right now, stick around for "The Great Blues of Greenland Month."

Don

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 03:06 AM

good point!

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 03:06 AM

oh, 100 by the way.