Disservice to Folk Awards

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 11:05 AM

Sitting in the beer tent at Warwick the other week I noticed three large posters advertising other festivals. The promoters were clearly using certain names as 'headline' acts to draw in the punters. These were, on the whole, winners of folk awards, darlings of the media and bands/singers 'poppy' enough to be tolerated by the 'folk-haters'. I would suggest, on the strength of this that the problem doesn't lie with the media but with the 'folk audience' who, to judge by their tastes, would actually rather be at a rock festival.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Edgware
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 07:47 AM

I've just read through the whole of this discourse, and was rather surprised that nobody thought of nominating messrs Rich & Gay. Arguably, they seem to have kicked off the process of hijacking folk or should I say traditional melodies with "the Beggar's Opera" - "Lumps of Pudding" et al.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 07:24 PM

You don't get a lot of people called Cecil these days.......

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 03:56 PM

I have it on unreliable authority (Father Kenneth Loveless) that the words to English Country Gardens were written by Cecil Sharp.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 03:55 PM

Sounds suspiciously like something Syd Barrett should have sung on one of his solo albums to me.

Nigel (about to dig out 'The Madcap Laughs')

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 03:25 PM

(Watching a cloud of Gloucester Old Spots drifting by my window)
now there has to be a complete song lyric there somewhere.

Charlotte (watching the cat make a complete fool of itself)

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 03:21 PM

(Watching a cloud of Gloucester Old Spots drifting by my window)

Whole squadron of farmyard animals in my case.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 03:15 PM

I've no doubt Smoothops would love to give Dave Bulmer an award since they like each other so much.
Thus they would oppose, obviously, one to the Beast of Harrogate for "disservice" to the industry.
If, however, he were suddenly to decide to release his buried treasures in a proper and above-board manner with all due royalties paid (or alternatively return the rights to the artists), I'd be applauding any plan to give him a gong for (belatedly) doing the right thing.

(Watching a cloud of Gloucester Old Spots drifting by my window)

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:57 PM

Bloody astounding! over 100 posts and nobody's mentioned D*ve B*lm*r.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 08:12 AM

People and teams who insist on performing dance / music in exactly the same way it was by some bloke in the year blah blah blah, I.e. those who dont let folk music and dance evolve, and who get offended by any changes! Folk music and dance is there to be enjoyed and modified as time goes on.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Scoville
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 11:30 AM

Our local ice cream trucks either play all of "Turkey in the Straw" or the first line only of "the Entertainer", which is worse. At least play a couple of bars! Aargh!

As an American, I'd nominate the racists who beat up the Louisiana Creole accordionist Amédé Ardoin for accepting a handkerchief from a white girl to wipe his face during a performance.

Second.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 11:17 AM

My last post doesn't make a great deal of sense, as the post which it replied to has been(sensibly) removed by a Joe Clone. It emphatically does not relate to weelittledrummer's previous post.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 10:34 AM

VAUGHAN BLOOD WILLIAMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry
yelling over

I'll crawl back into my nice quiet padded cell now.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 10:18 AM

Mmmmmmm. maybe you have a point, I'll have to think about it.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 07:12 PM

I think it was Ron Kavana did that version of the wild rover you are talking about - the one with the slightly different tune. I think I heard him do it in Derby coupla years back

top man!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 06:26 PM

Good musicians. Ordinary folks who got up at gatherings and sang the songs of their communities stopped performing. It's pretty much vanilla flavoured now.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Hovering Bob
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 06:24 AM

I nominate the 'prats' in the media who purposefully ridicule our folk heritage in all it's forms. The cheap laughs are at the expense of the ethos that makes us, and them, what we are. What I think is worse is when this attitude translates into discriminatory action or lack of it.
I suppose my greatest claim to fame is standing on a stage in Portugal in front of a live audience of over 5,000 as a musician with Dorset Triumph Folk Dancers representing my country at the first European Folklore Festival.
We didn't win but we were there and the final show was televised by EuroVision to millions across the whole of Europe, except that is, for the UK whose television broadcasters decided, in their wisdom, to ignore the whole thing because it was 'folk'!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 05:57 AM

Morning Carpet face.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,raggytash
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 05:56 AM

And this is the room number you should be put in

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 05:07 AM

...is mine!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 05:06 AM

The 100th post....

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 05:02 AM

The Wild Rover is still a popular song in a NON folk event - At least people DO join in , even if its only the four stamps/Raps on the table .

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,pete
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 04:46 AM

I don't look in here as often as I should so I've only just seen the references to Ollie Beak and Fred Barker.Nothing sad about remembering them.What about Pussycat Willum while we're about it? Back to the subject. The Wild Rover was probably as good a song as any way back when but now there are people who think it is the only folk song in existance.Who's going to educate them?

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Nerd
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 02:48 PM

The House Band did a good, mournful "Wild Rover."

As an American, I'd nominate the racists who beat up the Cajun/Creole music great Amede Ardoin for accepting a handkerchief from a white girl to wipe his face during a performance. This was long ago, of course, when lynch mobs were still the rule in Louisiana, and Amede was beaten til nearly dead. He never fully recovered and died, I think, only a few years later. Actually, I think racism in America has done a great disservice to folk (and folks) all around...

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Chris Green
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 01:57 PM

I've heard two alternate versions - one is a lament in a minor key and the other is a 6/8 jiggy affair. Trouble is, the guy who I used to work in a duo with insisted on doing one of the two at every gig we did. So I got sick of them, too! And since these were mainly crappy Irish theme pub gigs we wound up doing the proper version every night anyway! I would like the Wild Rover played at my funeral to make sure I'm dead and not just unconscious...

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: VIN
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 08:26 AM

I still like the Wild Rover (Alex Campbell used to do a grand version). It just got over-sung. I'm sure someone did a re-arrangement with not too long with a different tune which took it away from the usual folk 'standard'. Was it Dave Burland? Not sure.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Leadfingers
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 02:45 PM

If John Tams hadnt written Rollin Home , there wouldnt be the lovely parody Rolling Drunk !!!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: frogprince
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 01:46 PM

Amen, Mick.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 01:39 PM

To WDET in the Detroit area of southeastern Michigan for deciding that we are better served by removing "Folks like Us" with Matt Watroba and "Arkansas Traveller" despite the fact that they were among the leading fundraising shows in their stock. They did this so they could move to a more "formatted" type of programming, among other reasons. They did this without advance notice, hence denying Matt the opportunity to even say goodbye to his loyal audience of 20+ years. Another example of how "public" media is whitewashing itself and doing a huge disservice to the folk community.

Mick

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Chris Green
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 01:27 PM

And while we're on the subject of songs "The Wild f***ing Rover!" AAAARRRRRRGGGGHHHHH!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Chris Green
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 01:22 PM

I suspect the antipathy to "Rolling Home" stems from the circumstances in which it's generally sung - the festival beer tent at closing time.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Crystal
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 01:08 PM

But John Tams did the music for the Sharpe films! That was a great service surely.
Plus it gave us good music AND Sean Bean looking georgously sexy in uniform!!! Yum!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 01:03 PM

Greg Stephens for culture secretary! I never knew there was a world outside of the folk scene for years...and that they might actually like folk music if they just got access to it!
On topic, John Tams for "Rolling Home", one of the worst songs ever written.
x e

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: VIN
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 08:32 AM

Yes, you're quite right weelittledrummer. Must admit i did enjoy Val at times in thowdum days and have always enjoyed the Spinners. I think he introduced us to the great Dave Allen aswell if i'm not mistaken.

It's all a matter of personal taste (& age) at the end of the day i suppose.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 05:36 PM

So many negatives.

I went through the ritual of despising the Spinners when I thought I knew a bit about folk music, but now they are gone you don't hear The Bleacher Lass of Kelvinhaugh on mainstream TV any more.

Mike Harding I'm sure he does his best.

1950s bowderlised folksongs - well at least we heard folksongs at school.

I remember one night we were having an after hours chat in an Irish pub in Sheffield.

Somebody said Carrickfergus was their favourite song, and I said I remembered when Val Doonican used to sing it every week on the telly. he had a fancy jumper and I think he fancied himself as a handsome rover from town to town.

Somebody said God almighty that's put me off it.....

so many negatives!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: BanjoRay
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 10:30 AM

John Leonard of Smooth Operations is being accused in his thread of being the real source of the music choices on the Mike Harding programme. Nowt wrong with that, if true. John (Lenny) Leonard has served his time as a folk club turn for years, playing guitar and singing with John Squires on fiddle, and knows the business like the back of his hand. He's been responsible for running the Beeb's activities at Sidmouth and Cambridge festivals for the last few years as well. I think he does a great job, balancing up the many different ways folk in this country is treated. Whatever anyone did to produce the MH prog would be hated by some part of the folk world.
Confession - I used to be in a band (Balls, Banquets and Functions)with Lenny 30 years ago.
Ray

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Compton
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 08:41 AM

As to "The Ancient" BBC, whence but a lad in short trousers, I remember, on a sunday, I think, the transmission of radio of the Alan Lomax, Peter Kennedy, field recordings on a programme called "As I roved out".'twas probably in the days following Reith, but had a lasting effect on me. The BBC then weren't catering to the masses...or were the masses simpler folk then!

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: VIN
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 08:27 AM

I think the point made by compton above re Mike Harding's programme i.e. 'With the exception of John Peel and perhaps Andy Kershaw, all D.J's and Presenters of Music on BBC..have a man at the back (Producer!)'... sums up the problem with folk on the beeb. John Peel in the early days had a kind of partnership or understanding with his producer i.e the late John Walters, and together they broadcast some outstanding music.

Whatever control Mike has over his programme and whatever you think of the content, surely it's better than having no programme at all!?. I'm sure Mike tries to show as many aspects of the current 'folk/contempory' scene as his remit allows. I certainly would not consider his programme a disservice to 'folk'.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:34 AM

Satge Manager: the convivial evening recordings you referred to are well worth a listen in their entirety. The recordings were made in 1953 in various pubs in north Cumberland, by Norman Alford and Robert Forrester, of themselves and friends singing old Cumbrian songs and tunes. They have reissued recently on a Veteran CD(I havent the details to hand I'm afraid...I've got copies of the originals on cassette so I havent bought the CD), but it's called "Pass the Jug Around". The reissue was arranged by Sue Allan, the intrepid collector of Cumbriana, by the way.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,The Stage Manager
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 08:51 AM

Good question about the chair Eric. I wasn't there to witness the event myself. The organiser insisted on on telling the entire club about it after the event. Perhaps there wasn't a chair available and she (the organiser) had to hold Mike up to the sink, which is why she was so narked about it.


I'm afraid I belong to those who tend towards the opinion that 'market or 'celebrity' led folk music broadcast by the mass media is likely to lead it to become something else entirely.

Singarounds were mentioned earlier. My first exposure to folk music was at the "Sing and Play' at the New Inn in Hurstpierpoint in the late sixties. (The New Inn which must have been a pub for at least 400 years old, was an Indonesian restaurant the last time I passed it). Scan Tester used to come occasionally, and impromtu interludes of dancing by (mainly) the Chanctonbury Ring side, I recall as being more like semi choreographed punch-ups, during which furniture and limbs were broken. Scan had died by the time I finished College.

My instinct is that Folk Music is at its best when a group of people get together on occasions like a 'Sing & Play for largely informal music making. I'd almost say a pre-requisite was that everyone contributes in one way or another, and nobody, including the organiser, knows what the final result of the evening is going to be.

Perhaps the formalities and rituals of some clubs, the concert format, and maybe even festivals, do act against the spirit of the music.

I did recently hear a programme by M.H. which was about some recently re-discovered field recordings from the 50s. There were all these old boys having a lark, bantering and a singing some great old songs. It was most definitely folk music when it was being sung. Somehow the intrusion of the microphone, and the turning of a convivial evening from long ago into a radio programme for Radio 4 with its inevitable 'informed comments' for me, turned it into something else.


Bill

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 05:48 AM

I did hear that John Leonard and Nick Barraclough have sold out Smooth Ops to another company, why doesn't this surprise me ?

eric

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: treewind
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 04:26 AM

Spot on, Compton. Smooth Operations (John Leonard &co) production company and Radio2 management makes the decisions about what to play and MH is the poor old figurehead wot gets all the bashing for it. He gets a bit o'fame too; I doubt I'd turn the job down if I was offered it. (as if I could do it...)

As long as Radio 2's policy is dictated from on high to be "celebrity led" (management's actual words) it's never going to be a credible supporter of folk music by many people's criterion.

BTW, nice posting from Squeezy John yesterday in uk.music.folk illustrating this very point:

when we were coming up with our material I volunteered a demo CD to them and the feedback was that it was not radio friendly and that our treatment of traditional song was too involved to do justice to the tradition. Now, nothing has changed in our music that was influenced by those comments - but our popularity has meant that we are now Radio 2 friendly. And that's the point. The Mike Harding show is market driven which I do not agree with in the case of a public service broadcaster like the BBC.

My "disservice" vote, by the way, goes to crass journalists who trot out old clichés about Arran sweaters, fingers in the ear and hey-nonny-no "local yokel" morris dancers... just for a cheap laugh. Not clever, not funny, guys, it just reads like the tired ramblings of a pissed old hack running on automatic. Unfortunately your average reader is taken in by it.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 03:44 AM

The question is Stage Manager, how did Mike reach a wash basin for a slash ? he must have stood on a chair.

eric

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,LIzzie
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 08:04 PM

Dunno about that mate. I love Steel Eye span, am BIG fan of Maddy Prior but feel that I have had them rammed down my throat by MH to the extent that I would feel resentful about buying one of their albums. Its EVERY single week, and he talks about them like they are the best and most amazing folk band in the world. Or at least it was every single week before I gave up listening. Why doesn't he promote people who are still unsigned, or on the way up? There are so many unrecognised people around.

A very well known performer once said to me that the problem with festivals is that it is amateurs booking professionals and that often they don't think about about what other people might like to see, or what would be a good variety, only what THEY like. Although MH could be said to be a professional in terms of his own music, I do think he only puts on stuff that coincides with his own personal taste.

Then again, perhaps it wouldn't matter so much if there was more folk on tv and radio full stop, and therefore more audience choice. I guess we can't blame Mikey for the BBC etc.. being rubbish at promoting this kind of music.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Compton
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 07:33 PM

I suspect that Mr Harding has bugger all to do with the content of "The Folk Programme". With the exception of John Peel and perhaps Andy Kershaw, all D.J's and Presenters of Music on BBC..have a man at the back (Producer!) that decides playlist and content.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: GUEST,The Stage Manager
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 05:17 PM

I'm have to agree with Eric T.R about Mike Harding. It always a tragedy when someone like M H gets sucked into one of those British institutions which seem to suck the life blood out of innovative and rebellious individuals.

It must have been in the early seventies that I saw MH at a the Thelwall FC on the outskirts of Warrington. In those days the Mersey was generally somewhere under 6 ft of foul smelling pink foam, and SELNEC busses had NO SPITTING notices on the upper decks.

Thelwall was rather on 'the bosses' side of town, and had the reputation, even in those days, of being a bit prissy. Harding was hilarious, outspoken,and brilliant. He succeeded in upsetting all the right people, not least the lady organiser who discovered him relieving himself in a wash-hand basin in the ladies loo during the interval.

I don't suppose he does that very often in the BBC.

SM

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Cool Beans
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 03:50 PM

Awful music played by an ice cream truck is not a new issue.
Stan Freberg (American humorist, for you across the ponds) did this song on his radio show, circa 1960. It was in a skit about Good Humor that's a brand name) ice cream trucks, sung by a chorus of drivers, to the tune of "Collegiate."

Humor, Humor, yes we are Good Humor
That is not no rumor,
Yay, oh,
Music, music, how we love the music
Lovely nursery music
Tinkling as we go.
Earplugs, earplugs, we won't wear at all
Or we could be sentenced to a hundred days of
Yankee Doodle
Worse than tutti fruit-le
Sell it by the oodle
Good Humor, we love you.
Yay.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Chris Green
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:19 AM

Mulligan and O'Hare = comedy :)
Foster and Allen = tragedy :(

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:13 AM

Foster and Allen = Mulligan and O'hare.

Subject: RE: Disservice to Folk Awards
From: Chris Green
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:12 AM

Alright, maybe I was hasty about the Spinners - a personal taste thing I guess. I note however that no-one has leapt to the defence of Foster and Allen! On that point I refuse to recant!