BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?

Subject: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 04:13 PM

There are a number of threads dealing with the current election. Most of these threads seem to spend most of their energy dealing with regurgitation of facts, lies and half truths that come mostly from slanted press releases.   Most Mudcatters seem to have their particular source of information and spend hours trying to defend that point.

I am going to throw out a challenge, which I know will probably be thrown out the window knowing how Mudcat discussions work.

I would like to ask those of you who are willing to share to give YOUR reason for voting for either candidate.   What is it about that candidate that can possibly improve YOUR situation or implement policy that is in sync with ideals that match YOUR beliefs.

Now here is the hard part, I would love to see this forum continue WITHOUT challenges to the posters view. I would love to see people post the REASONS they are going to vote for a particular candidate and NOT be attacked.   This is purely meant to share OPINION, not stir debate.   Leave the attacks and debates to other threads.

Suitable punishment will be handed out to the first person that attacks someone else - or even question someone elses reasoning. The words should speak for themselves and truly we can make decisions for ourselves.

Anyone up for the challenge?

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 04:31 PM

I'm sorry, Ron. Being Canadian, I cannot vote for either one of them. Given the choice, I would rather vote for neither of them, but if I had to choose it would be Kerry.

Why?

I think his administration might be less dangerous than that of George Bush.

That's just a guess, though. I have no guarantees.

There is not much that either Kerry or Bush stand for that would encourage me to vote for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 04:36 PM

Like Little Hawk, I dont have a vote in the USA. As an outsider, I have to say I often find it difficult to figure out what the difference is between the candidates. Mind you, I have the same problem in Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: Peg
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 04:37 PM

I'm voting for John Kerry because he's not George Bush. That's pretty much it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 04:44 PM

Since I started this, I should add mine.

I am going to vote for John Kerry. As the father of two children, I worry about the draft being re-instated. I also worry about women losing their freedom to choose. I feel that John Kerry will look after their interests more than George Bush.

I believe John Kerry is a strong leader who will bring honor back to the office and reinstill respect around the world.   While the republicans accuse him of "flip-flopping", I think that Kerry will be more in control than Bush has shown.

I feel that Kerry has better ideas on improving the economy and creating jobs. The net loss of jobs in this country under Bush cannot be tolerated.

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 04:46 PM

I'm with Peg on this, plus with a Democrat in the White House, I hope to see women's rights upheld and also stop the far right takeover of the Supreme Court, among other things.

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 05:28 PM

Also - I can imagine that some of you might have reservations on sharing the name of the candidate you plan to vote for.   While I am not a fan of "guests", I would suggest using the anonymous log-on if you wish to add your thoughts. Again, please don't use it as a way of attacking someone else.   We all know that we won't agree with someone who plans to vote or support a candidate opposite our beliefs. The idea of this thread really isn't to start a discussion, it is more to share ideas and a chance for us to be honest with the reasons why we support the candidate we do.

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 05:31 PM

I will vote for Kerry. When you listen to him speak he 'mostly' makes sense and sounds reasonable. I was displeased to see him in the primary debates trying to stick to canned, pre-written responses, but since then, he has sounded MUCH better as he just said what he thinks.
   The debate about 'flip-flopping' is mostly a result of a man who makes the effort to think, and re-evaluate as new circumstances dictate, and I don't see why he has not MADE that point better. He has much experience with the issues after years as a senator..(MUCH more experience than Bush has).

I believe he will do a credible job, and will avoid the worst errors that Bush has made, and will re-instate some of the Democratic party's programs, which will help the country as a whole.

...and, he is not Bush...

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 05:32 PM

I am not a US citizen. So, I won't get to vote. However, if I was going to, it would be Kerry. I prefer the policies of Nader, but Kerry's will have to do. He can and will defeat Bush--who happens to be a frightening, stupid man.

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 05:37 PM

Ron, I think the real problem facing us in both the USA and Canada and elsewhere in the so-called democracies...is the party system itself. Political parties are not fit representatives of the public, because it is not the public which finances them. They are handmaidens of the major financial lobbies (banks and corporations). This has resulted in a system which effectively cannot represent the public and will not ever represent the public...it will only pretend to represent the public so as to secure a requisite number of votes at election time.

That is what's happening out there.

We have to completely dismantle all the existing political parties, do away with them forever, and adopt a much more representative system that cannot be controlled by major financial players.

There are ways it could be done. I could PM you about a book that explains one way it can be done.

The forces that would wish to prevent that from occuring, however, are huge! And that is the primary problem in a nutshell. They want to maintain the status quo, because they derive their power and privileged position from maintaining it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 05:47 PM

I try to make important decisions thoughtfully, with intentionality, but once I come to a decision, I try not to stress over it. The stress impedes whatever action I may take based on that decision, and is no use to me. As I get older it's esier to let the stress go, because although I believe I can make a difference in the world, I also know that I am just one small person in a sea of equally-worthy decision-makers. So yeah, voting is important, but it's probably not where I will have an opportunity to make the biggest or longest-acting impact in things going on arond me. That happens closer to home.

But about voting. If I had any doubts before, I lost them when I saw that the whole media message of Bush's campaign is about fear-mongering-- that it just isn't safe to vote for anyone else. It intensified as they went into the convention. I think he actually believes this-- brainwashed by his handlers-- and even if he were right, I still would not want somone keeping me safe with their attention fixed on fear. The more he sincerely believes it, the less I want him in the Oval Office.

If there is real danger, I'd rather have someone thinking more clearly than people can when they're gripped by fear. I don't mean that I want false assurances, or for a leader to blow smoke up my ass. But I do not want someone preoccupied by fear in charge of.... anything that has to do with me.   

I don't put much stock in party platforms or candidate positions, except as they illustrate a general mindset and worldview. Platforms are merely temporary negotiations for votes. Whatever else a candidate may say they stand for, our political process and media intrusions will rub off the rough edges, and very few of the winners' stated agendas survive the first year in office, intact.

I don't put much stock in what they say they believe in, either, even if they seem to live their beliefs, because the first thing winners seem to do is sell out those very same beliefs-- once they find out how it really is to deal with our system of government.

So that leaves Kerry. I don't mind the reputation for changing his mind. I like people who are able to do that when there's good reason. If he gets the top job, his handlers will put pressure on him to see to it that he doesn't change it very often, anyhow, cuz they'll go nuts trying to wrangle political agreements if he does it too much.


I don't care if anyone attacks me for my post. It's my vote, and my circle of advisors doesn't include Mudcatters on such matters. I'm comfortable with my position and I don't expect to look back in, to see if someone has started a fight with me over it.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 05:51 PM

This is not about attacking posts or being right or wrong. I hope people will debate that in other threads.   This is a thread about sharing ideas and thoughts, and no one can be wrong for having them.

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 06:04 PM

Righto.

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 06:08 PM

UK here so no real vote... I'd vote Kerry. No other reason than I believe Bush is dangerous and I want him out of power.

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: Teresa
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 06:09 PM

I want Bush out, out, out, and as I see it, the best way to get him o-u-t is to vote for Kerry, who isn't all bad, IMO. Kerry has said he will not implement the Yucca Mountain Project in Nevada. This is not just a NIMBY issue; it means that nuclear waste will not be transported through populated areas all across the country. As for what needs to be done with it, that is a very valid issue and needs to be addressed at some point, the sooner the better.

I usually vote for a third party candidate, mostly in the Peace and Freedom party. However, even if they were on the ballot this time, voting for them would not be an assurance to me that Bush would go away. So I'm being pragmatic, IMO.

In general, the two big boys, AKa Republicrats are a giant monster, in my humble opinion. ...

T

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: saulgoldie
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 06:12 PM

Kerry, because he will do less damage than Bush. I'm with LH in that the entrenched economic powers overwhelm any pretense of democracy. I think that while the Republicans are far worse in this regard, the Dems are no slouches, either. Kerry will likely not allow as much environmental ravaging, will choose better Supreme Court judges, and will not persist in assaulting women and gays with the fervor of Bush. That is not my most rousing endorsement, but it will have to do. Another Bush term is doom.

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: Midchuck
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 06:13 PM

I have the luxury of living in Vermont, which is considered a lock for Kerry. So I can vote my conscience, i. e., Libertarian, without worrying about having to vote for a Democrat for the first time in my life because the Republican is the bigger danger to individual rights. That's not supposed to be the case.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 06:14 PM

Choice, civil rights for all (no discrimination based on race creed or orientation), help and concern for all classes of society, protection of the environment, support for teachers and students...

Kerry

(not my first choice by a long, long shot, but far, far better than Bush).

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: Amos
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 06:58 PM

Kerry has not launched wars and lied about it; he has demonstrated physical AND moral courage; he has intelligent and well-spoken children which says a lot about how he raised them; and he has not hounded the American public with faslsehoods for four years, so he may as well have a chance to do so. He certainly behaves like amore honest man than the incumbent.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 07:09 PM

Kerry. As a thinking man, he will attract thinking people to his administration, instead of the testerone-driven simpleheads that are governing us now.

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: DougR
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 07:27 PM

I will vote for George Bush (Surprise!) I believe:
Bush's policy of preimptive strikes before terrorists strike is the only way to deal with the terrorists. Waiting for them to strike us could kill too many Americans. I also believe Bush is a better leader than Kerry would be and will provide much better support for the military than the senator would. Kerry's record of NOT supporting our defense is a matter of record.

I believe Bush has a better plan for salvaging Social Security. The idea of allowing younger workers to invest some of their money in approved investment programs makes a lot of sense to me.

I believe Bush will do more to assure that there is a continuous supply of oil until viable alternative energy sources are developed than Kerry would. On this point, if necessary, I believe Bush will convince the congress to allow drilling in Anwar where I am convinced Kerry will not.

I believe George W. Bush is an honest man. I don't believe he has lied to the American people, and wants to do only the best for America's citizens and the world.

I believe George Bush will continue to fight world terrorism and will continue to try to enlist other nations to help. I think Kerry would try to get other nations to help, but I am not convinced that he would vigorously conduct a campaign to eradicate terrorists.

I believe George Bush will successfully guide legislation through the congress to limit frivilous law suits (malpractice suits against doctors primarily) and that Kerry would not even try.

I think George Bush will continue to support publlic education and, though Kerry gives lip service to it, Bush can do it more successfully.

I believe that the Republicans will hold the majority in both the House and the Senate and both bodies will work with a President of their own party more effectively than they would with Kerry. Logjams will be a thing of the past.

I believe Bush will succeed, with majority in both bodies, in appointing judges at all levels of the Judiciary who will interperet the law, not make laws.

I do not believe Roe vs Wade will be repealed under a Bush administration, nor would it be under a Kerry administration.

I believe the world will be safer with George W. Bush as president.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: kendall
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 07:28 PM

The next president will load the Supreme Court, and we will live with his choices for many years to come. You can guess who I prefer.

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 07:54 PM

Why George Bush? Because many people are too busy and preoccupied with the sad realities of the 'Bush sponsored' economy to be interested in changing the status quo. Even good change requires a commitment we don't all have time for. Also, we finally have figured out how to invest our money virtually risk free under this administration, and we wouldn't want to rock that boat... things are too uncertain.

Why John Kerry? Because he is the only 'Washington insider' capable of winning...that actually has the audacity to admit to the American public how unrepresentitive the Bush administration is of their long term interests. Real change comes in careful, gradual increments. Oh, and btw... John Kerry will make a great president. Three months of the "Kerry picked" administration... and GWB will be the laughing stock.


...is it time to 'sell short' on Halliburton yet?
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 08:13 PM

Well, Ron, as Laurel & Hardy said---you've done it now, Ollie. WOnderful thread you started. And great response.

Your post re: the draft and women and their rights. On Women I agree with you---on the draft I guess it is up for grabs given the overextension that W has got us in (A fine mess, Ollie). That said, and I have grandsons, I fear for their safety as do you---yet, we have become a nation of mercenaries to put it plainly. Just look at the Farenheit911 film. We induct the needy. In Vietnam we did it with the draft---but the exemptions were amazing--think Cheney for starters. The sad part is that then and now we let our poorer and unemployed fight the wars of the "haves" for the protecdtion of their own interests.   

The bottom line, to me, would be a draft (and I was in such a one many moons ago--volunteered to get it over with---admittedly Korea had ended---truth in advtsg unlike our administration--- that was fair and across the board. But---the big BUT---having an administration that can negotiate and deal with the rest of the world that would, perhaps, prevent some situations. So, the answer to me is Kerry---nuance is not a dirty word even though Darth Vader---sorry---Cheney thinks it is. Why mention W---his thoughts are implanted like the Mancurian Candidate.   Sloganeering is his forte. Depth, to some extent, is Kerry's/


By the way--an aside. Today Putin made the comment that we expect him to negotiate with Terrorists but the U S (W) will not---double standard he asks. You bet. Putin is no angel---but we don't have one either----they may well meet in a very warm place in the hopefully, near future.

See--Ron---no bashing. All positive. Well, for the most part.

Nice idea for a thread.


\Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 08:33 PM

Biting my tongue. (You're asking a lot, Ron O!)

On the other hand, I congratulate you, DougR. That's the most coherent reasoning from you that I have heard.

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 08:37 PM

Let's be careful.   This thread is about reasons we are voting for a candiate, not name calling or cheap one-liners. The idea behind this thread is to find REAL reasons why we are voting the way we are. I think understanding each of our reasons may put us in a better frame of mind.

It does appear that many people are going to choose one candidate because they can't stand the other. That is a reason too.   

Again, I beg of people to keep this thread going by giving POSITIVE reasons why you are voting for you candidate. Save the discussion and jokes for other threads, I think in the end we will see some very interesting reasons why each of us vote the way we do.

Don't be afraid to be a "Guest" if you don't want to share your name. HONEST answers are the key.

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 08:43 PM

OK--you can't be a guest whe you have a cookie. Only guests get cookies at parties.

Positive brief one liner---Kerry---Lesser of all evils---and I do mean evil.

I do admit in hindsight to thinking Ike was bad for us, when in history we find he his foresight about the Military Industrial Complex was prescient (and he a General).   Makes sense though---Cheney (a civilian with deferments) got rich on it.   Sad that Ike's ideas were not followed up on---hindsight again. Wish I had a crystal ball.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 08:55 PM

You can log out and come back as a guest.

Again, please, no jokes on this thread. This thread is not supposed to be about discussion. There are plenty of other threads for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 09:06 PM

Ron, you really can't control a thread. You've asked nicely, but now you have to just let it be. Maybe people will mostly do what you ask. They usually don't, but one can always hope. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 09:16 PM

Humor brings out insights. It appeals topeople

Would that Kerry would lighten up so that his charisma might shine through. I refer back to may other note---so serious.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 09:18 PM

Well, I (like so many Americans) will be voting for the candidate I feel is least likely to screw things up more, and in my case, that would be Kerry. Bu$h has shown his true colors and they are green.

Hopefully Kerry'll less of a threat to the Red, White & Blue than Bu$h, but I surely wish that we had an option that said "None of the above...give us two new bozos/choices!".

Just my $.02

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 09:42 PM

You are right Susan, I am just putting out reminders for people who do not read the entire thread.   Let's hope for the best! There have been some great and insightful posts so far. Keep it up!

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: maire-aine
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 10:50 PM

Here's why I am voting for John Kerry:

First of all, I am a Democrat—here's why: I believe it is the role of government to deliver certain services to the public, i.e. police and fire protection, public education, road building and maintenance, garbage collection, etc. These are what are generally considered "public goods". I also want the government to deliver additional "public goods" such as protection of air and water quality, safety standards in the workplace, food safety standards for meat and produce, drug safety standards. These things have been delivered under Democratic administrations, but the Republicans are trying to dismantle them. I also want this "public good": single payer health insurance that is not tied to employment. If we stand any chance for this at all, it will require a Democratic President and a Democratic Congress.

Secondly, I do not want a Republican President to appoint the next generation of Supreme Court justices.

Thirdly, I believe that this administration was wrong in attacking Iraq. Everything they told us has turned out to be wrong—there were no WMD found, there was no reliable opposition who would be able to establish a new government, Iraqi oil will not be able to pay for the re-building of the country, there is no international force who can take over security.

Fourthly, the Bush administration has turned into the most secretive in modern history. He makes Richard Nixon look like a choir boy. There has been a systematic movement to eliminate judicial review of the administration's actions—holding prisoners without habeas corpus, holding prisoners in Cuba because such actions would never be tolerated here, prison abuses in Iraq—the list goes on and on.

Fool me once, shame on Bush; fool me twice, shame on me.

Maryanne

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 11:10 PM

The whole premise of this thread is that that there CAN be only 2 alternatives in the US election process - something that is mandatory in a 'first past the post' system, unlike Australia.

'Flip-Flopping' - this is the typical 'Anti-Intellectual' attack designed to appeal to 'Pseudo-Intellectuals', who of course do not have the desire to use what real intellectual capacity they may have. It tends to backlash severely in Australia - as it is mostly seen as just an "Ad Hominem" (personal) attack, but it is becoming more common in Australian Politics, due to the export of failed second-rate US political advisors, who do not understand the Law or the Culture here - but it seems to be the only hope of Johnny shooting himself enough in the foot to lose.

As an Australian I cannot vote in this election, although the actions and policies of the US Govt will continue to impact heavily on Australian Culture, Finance, Trade, Business & Politics, and thus indirectly on me. But I would personally prefer _any_ US candidate who displays a high level of intelligence thru a flexibility of mental processes, rather than one who publicly displays a rigid narrow minded "God Spoke Directly TO ME!" approach. That way of politics has always historically led to Disaster.

"Those who do not learn from the lessons of History, are condemned to repeat them."

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 12:53 AM

i'm voting for kerry because he's not GWB. he doesn't inspire me but he is an intelligent man capable of speaking in complete sentences. a president like that may raise the bar beyond the appaling ignorance that is now accepted..."oh, there goes george again- of course, what he REALLY meant was...". the one thing that scares me the most is that a person as ignorant, mean-spirited, clueless, and morally impaired as Fearless Leader can be sold and marketed as the complete opposite and half the people will believe it!!
plus a kerry victory will turn out of office the puppetmasters that have conceived and executed (and i do mean executed) the oxymoronic policy of "pre-emptive self defense". we can't stand much more of this "catostrophic success".

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 08:03 AM

Bush. Because I think he is gorgeous!

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 08:08 AM

To begin, I don't believe who is president has much impact on my life personally and locally. In fact, the only influence I have seen it have, is some election years there is a coattail effect locally, but even that isn't consistent, and seems to depend on the candidate.

I find it utterly depressing that the majority of voters will vote for one or the other evil. I just don't see how voting for the bad guys can be considered a legitimate means of repossessing our democracy, because the electoral system is rigged to keep the current bad guys in power. Other means than electoral ones will have to be used to regain a peoples' toehold in the US government.

Both Dem & Rep candidates support the continuation of perpetual war.

Both Dem & Rep candidates support one variety or another of the "Ownership Society"--the Bush/Republican euphemism for the dismantling of the institutions of democracy by instead institutionalizing as de facto rulers, specially privleged global corporate interests.

Both candidates support the status quo that became institutionalized in American politics under Reagan, and makes them both evil choices, IMO.

I will not cast my vote out of fear of the "evil president Bush". I have never in my 30 years of voting, voted for an "Anybody But..." candidate, and I have no intention of starting to do so now, because the Democrats are in a frenzy from losing political power for the first time in a century.

I could go on and on down the line of issues. I know there are some significant differences on some issues between the donkey and the elephant, but nothing significant enough for me to cast my vote for either one of them.

As an unaligned independent voter, I am voting for my long term interests, beyond this election where there isn't a positive choice between the two party candidates. I am not "voting my conscience" (which I believe is a propaganda line being espoused by anti-Nader braying donkeys). I am voting my long term interests as a progressive independent. I am voting in a state that is considered to be "swing" by the donkeys and the elephants, but not by me, because neither of those two parties represents my interests.

So, like 2000, I will vote for the Greens, and David Cobb for president. I am looking beyond this election with my vote, knowing that it will help build the Green Party in my state. As to the choices between the donkey and the elephant, I believe there won't be much difference in the raping and pillaging of the planet under either one, I don't think either one is committed to upholding international human rights, I don't think either one will advocate for the poor and working class citizens of the world, I believe both will nominate judges that will act as advocates for the monied interests, and against the interests of minorities, women, and the poor, etc etc blah blah blah.

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 09:22 AM

I am supporting Bush because the I believe the most important job of the government is the security of the people.    All the other issues are important, but if you don't have security, they don't matter.   (On 9/12/01 no one in NYC was debating whether we should be drilling for oil in Anwar)

I don't care what Kerry's current postion on terrorism is.    I believe he is weak and will succumb to special interest groups and not fight an agressive war on terror.   I believe this puts my family, friends, and co citizens of the world in peril.   After the incidents in Russis this past week, I don't know how anyone could not recognize the threat of terrorism.   I believe with Kerry as president that incidents like this would be commonplace in the USA.

I think Bush spends too much money on entitlements, but Kerry would spend more.

Bush supports school vouchers and testing standards.   Kerry is for and against that.

Bush wants to privatize social security.   I would opt out of social security which pays me a 1% rate of return in a heart beat.   Kerry is for and against that.

As governor Bush was one of the leaders in bringing renewable energy (wind) into Texas making texas the 2nd or third largest wind state in the country. Bush uses a geothermal system to heat and cool his ranch.   Kerry (or his family) drive SUV's.   So explain to me why Kerry is so good on the environment.

Right or wrong you know where Bush stands.   After a year of campaigning and countless debates, Kerry is still trying to define himself.

People in Israel support Bush something like 55%-17% and that war before the republican convention.   Israel is an important issue to me.   I think the people of Israel know best who is good for them.

Hollywood, Michael Moore, Barbara Steisand, Al Franken, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Alex Baldwin, and Hillary Clinton support Kerry.   Rudy Guiliani, Ed Koch, Zel Miller, John McCain, Tommy Franks, and Ron Silver support Bush.

Bush will lower taxes.   Kerry will raise them.   My wife and I are in the top 10% of wage earners in the USA.   That means that we earn 46.0% of the wages in the USA, but pay 67.3% of the taxes.   So much for tax loopholes for the rich.   Kerry would have us pay more.   Right now the bottom 50% of the USA only pay 3.9% of taxes. (number from IRS web site)   This does not include state income tax, city income tax, sales tax, and all the other taxes.   I think I pay too much and we know that 25%-50% of taxes are wasted by the govt.

I believe that Bush has faith.   I do not think Kerry has faith.

I think Kerry is an isolated billionaire who is way out of touch with the the American people.

Laura Bush vs Teresa.   no contest.

Kerry says he will fix the deficit- but the first thing I think of is the "Big Dig" in Boston.   How is he going to manage the country when he can't manage the state.   Is there a bigger boondoggle in history?

So far it looks like about 5 votes for Kerry, 2 votes for Bush, and about 30 votes for anyone but Bush.   A landslide for none of the above.

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 11:10 AM

I do not feel safe with Bush as president. I do not appreciate his low ball tactics in the furtherance of undisclosed intentions. I do not appreciate the excuses, the rationalizations, and the lies about Iraq. I find the secrecy of the current administration to be fertile soil for corruption.

Kerry is open, and he thinks things through. He is a straight shooter, that sees the complexities for what they are, and he lets his conscience speak out, even when he has to block legislation he might otherwise agree with.

If you take these two men, and look deep into their moral fiber... you get one who is 'out of his own mental loop', who sticks to his convictions without the confusing influence of conscience, a 'born again' who thinks he's above the moral foundations of his own 'devoutness'... And you get one who has an unquestionable coviction to follow his conscience, which is well developed and far seeing, he is prone to studing facts and projected ramifications as well as listening to all sides of the issues. Kerry is unquestionably the man of higher personal integrity in this election.

Laura's pre-feminist platitudes are truly an archaic throwback... Teresa is refreshing, involved, independently intelligent, and a much more appropriate role model for today's women...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: Peg
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 01:17 PM

just some questions based on these statements from GUEST Larry K:

Hollywood, Michael Moore, Barbara Steisand, Al Franken, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Alex Baldwin, and Hillary Clinton support Kerry.   Rudy Guiliani, Ed Koch, Zel Miller, John McCain, Tommy Franks, and Ron Silver support Bush.
--Ron Silver is an actor based in Hollywood. Therefore, by saying "Hollywood" supports Kerry, you must be including Ron Silver. So you are contradicting yourself here. You might want to think twice about including "Hollywood" since that includes a lot of people who clearly are not Kerry supporters...


Bush will lower taxes.   Kerry will raise them.   My wife and I are in the top 10% of wage earners in the USA.   That means that we earn 46.0% of the wages in the USA, but pay 67.3% of the taxes.   So much for tax loopholes for the rich.   Kerry would have us pay more.   Right now the bottom 50% of the USA only pay 3.9% of taxes. (number from IRS web site)   This does not include state income tax, city income tax, sales tax, and all the other taxes.   I think I pay too much and we know that 25%-50% of taxes are wasted by the govt.
--Know what? You, as someone in the top 10% of wage earners, SHOULD pay higher taxes.
Bush is doing nothing about corporate welfare, nor will he. Are you concerned about anyone else's wallet but your own?


I believe that Bush has faith.   I do not think Kerry has faith.
--and precisely what do you mean by this? Faith in God? What does a politician's religious affiliation or level of belief have to do with his or her ability to govern? We have a separation of church and state in this country, guaranteed by the Constitution. Bush seems to have ignored that, if he was ever aware of it. This is not, nor should it be, a Christian nation.



I think Kerry is an isolated billionaire who is way out of touch with the the American people.
--out of touch? Hanging out at the ranch in Crawford Texas for 42% of his time in the first year of his presidency makes ole Dubya IN touch? Please. The man's had more vacation time in the last four years than I've had hot dinners in my whole life.
When he was inaugurated, Bush had never been to Europe once in his life, despite having come from money. Kerry is not only well-travelled but speaks a number of foreign languages. I know who I trust to be more skilled in foreign policy, and it's not the guy who never showed any curiosity about the world outside Texas before he was forced to...


Laura Bush vs Teresa.   no contest.
--so what do you mean here? What do you think makes someone a desirable First Mate?


Kerry says he will fix the deficit- but the first thing I think of is the "Big Dig" in Boston.   How is he going to manage the country when he can't manage the state.   Is there a bigger boondoggle in history?
--and just what does John Kerry have to do with the overspending on the Big Dig? That has been the fault of the underwriting banks and the inept contractors. I actually live in Boston--you'll have to do better than that to convince me.

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: DougR
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 02:33 PM

Question, Peg: why should Larry K. pay more taxes? Perhaps you will show us where in the Constitution it states that someone who is finacially successful should be penalized for his/her success? The Congress, in it's wisdom, made that decision when it devised the screwed-up tax code.

Sorry for the thread creep Ron, but that statement just sort of grabbed me and I couldn't resist.

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 02:38 PM

Peg and DougR, I thought this thread wasn't intended to challenge what other posters were stating as their opinions? So why are you challenging LarryK (Peg) and Peg (DougR)?

Here were the instructions: This is not a debate thread. This is a share your opinion/state your voter preference thread. That means the two of you are already trying to turn this thread into a debate.

I like this thread as an opinion thread. I cast my vote for you debaters who can't control yourselves could just go away from this thread.

Aye or nay?

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 02:40 PM

We've had a graduated income tax since the inception of tax, IIRC. It isn't necessarily right. Even with a uniform percentage, Rich Larry would pay more than someone squeaking by.

Then he could waste his money as he saw fit, instead of giving it to the government towaste for him. While it is virtuous to support your fellows so that optimum survival is acheived for all, there is no way to mandate virtue, and every effort to do so has pretty uniformly fallen apart.

The problem is that financial success is an independent variable, not a mark of virtue. In fact, sometimes it is quite the opposite, depending on how it is acheived. Especially in the top 10%! :)

(Just tweaking ya, Larry!)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 02:43 PM

Absolutely Guest.   As I said earlier, I realize that none of us cn control the content, but this was intended as a sharing of opinion.   People should feel free to send a PM if they want to question or create a new thread or an existing thread to discuss issues.

This thread can disintegrate if we pick apart each idea presented here. This isn't a debate. If we do it right, we will have a very interesting series of posts that hopefully will give each of us something to think about.

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 02:48 PM

Too late. The usual suspects are starting to crawl all over the thread now.

No one's opinion/candidate preference requires comments from anyone else. In fact, if you have already told us your preference/reasons (ThomastheRhymer) there is no need for you to post again in this thread.

Aye or nay?

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: Nerd
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 03:20 PM

GUEST:

I cast my vote for you debaters who can't control yourselves could just go away from this thread.

But, GUEST, isn't that a response to another poster, not an opinion on the issues? Aren't you doing what you accuse others of doing?

Also, as a resident alien of mudcat, you don't have a vote to cast, alas!

So here is my opinion:

My preference is for John Kerry.

Kerry has worked very hard on the environment and has the endorsement of all the major environmental groups. He has a 97% voting record on environmental issues.

Kerry is also better at understanding and expressing the nuances of a situation, where Bush goes for Good/Evil, With us/Against us, Support the War/Hate America dichotomies.

Kerry will do a much better job of taking expert advice. Bush takes it a sign of weakness to admit that he is not the world's expert on everything. He thinks out in advance what would be the best policy for him and his millionaire supporters, then suppresses or marginalizes any scientific data that show his policy to be wrong. He has done this on every issue, from energy to agriculture. Kerry will listen to the experts.

I also believe Kerry will provide adequate support for the military, quite probably better than Bush's. Bush's record of NOT supporting our defense, and especially our veterans, is a matter of record. Once veterans have no good benefits, it's only a matter of time before our all-volunteer military is choked of new recruits.

I believe Bush would let Social Security die, and that Alan Greenspan has already paved the way by disingenuously claiming that "Our economy" would no longer be able to support our older Americans. I believe Kerry would do his best to save Social Security.

I believe Kerry would continue to protect ANWR and other wilderness areas, while facilitating switching us to alternative energy sources. Bush on the other hand would do his utmost to rape the environment for oil, even though drilling in America is a band-aid on a massive headwound. He has to to pay back his oil company friends. It's not about whether we need the oil, but about who gets rich from drilling for it.

I think Kerry will be much better at getting other world leaders to join us in the fight against global terrorism.

I think Kerry will be much better on education as well. Indeed, one could hardly be worse than an underfunded NCLB.

I believe Kerry will do a lot to temper the increasingly fascist tone of American government, with the FBI looking into our library records and people forced to sign loyalty oaths in order to approach a candidate's supposedly public forum.

Finally, I believe the world will be much safer with John Kerry as president.

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 03:26 PM

I'm voting for John Kerry because:

I believe he is capable of seeing the problems facing us in something besides the simplistic good/bad, black/white, us/them framework that George W. Bush and his cronies seem to see them.

I believe he has the intelligence and the wisdom to understand that while international terrorism is the greatest problem facing our world today, the use of the word "war" in "war on terror" is largely metaphorical and that it's not a war that can be won by bullets and bombs alone.

I believe he has more respect for the sovereignty of other nations and will not expect them to blindly follow the lead of the U.S., right or wrong.

I believe he would not involve the U.S. in a war that a substantial percentage of Americans opposed - that he would only take that step if the overwhelming majority of Americans thought it was fully justified and necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 04:21 PM

Ron, that's a pretty easy one. Kerry is:
1. Intelligent, educated and well-spoken.
2. Analytical. He thinks very carefully about policies and their effect on the country.
3. He has a mastery of another language which many don't think is important.
But in dealing with the rest of the world community, it is an important plus.
4. He is a true statesman. Proof ot that would be to interview almost anyone outside of the US.
5. He is loathe to deal in invectives and dirty tricks. He wants to stay with policies. In short, his is a moral individual.
6. He is "nuanced" in and flexible which is the best qualification for a world leader. He is not a religious idealogue and evangelical demagogue but believes in the "Separation of Chuch and State".
7. He is no friend of the NRA and opposes assault weapons.
8. He surrounds himself with people who are capable, educated, and honest.
9. He has courage. He proved it in Vietnam and didn't shrink from it.
10. He was an effective senator despite propaganda to the contrary. His name was not on every bill but he gave support when he felt it was right to do it.
11. He has a wide range of interests which make him a good spokesperson for art and literature. If he invited poets to the White House, it would be a successful event.
12. He has focus and a plan that isn't getting aired. His exit plan is clear. Involve more international cooperation in Iraq and take the burden off of the American occupation.
13. He doesn't deal in simplistic sound bytes. He's too intelligent for that.
14. He is not locking himself into false promises by hyping the American people.
15. He has had governmental experience as Attorney General and Senator.
16. He is concerned with the unfair tax practices of the Republicans and wants to place the tax burden on the wealthy rather than penalize the middle and working-poor classes.
17. His wife is sophisticated, intelligent and will be a help to him as First Lady.
18. Kerry is loyal to his comrades.
19. His choice of John Edwards as vice president shows his decision making processes are good. Edwards is intelligent, active, and has the interest of the working classes in America at heart.
20. He plays guitar. What more could Mudcatters want?

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: Peg
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 04:28 PM

aw, okay, I forgot that caveat and I apologize for challenging Larry's statements.

Subject: RE: BS: Why George Bush? Why John Kerry?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 04:39 PM

I believe GWB plays the hairbrush or something....


A