Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee

Subject: RE: Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 02:05 PM

Subject: RE: Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee
From: JeffB
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 05:44 AM

Chris, thanks very much for that very useful info. Are the broadsides much the same as each other or the modern song, or are there any significant differences?

Subject: RE: Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee
From: GUEST,Chris Wright
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 11:46 PM

I have an essay in the recent book 'Street Ballads in Nineteenth-Century Britain, Ireland and North America' which includes a discussion on the origin of this song. The earliest version on 'The Road and the Miles' that I know of appears in broadside ballads from the Poets' Box in Dundee. There are three distinct publications, probably produced over a 20-30 year period at the start of the 20th century. But the song has an earlier origin as an art-poem called 'Grim Winter was Howlin', composed by Fife man Charles Gray (1782-1851). The poem was evidently subject a very common process by the Poets' Box and other broadside printers, whereby the flowery language of art-poetry was recast into the broadside idiom for broader appeal.

See: http://www.rampantscotland.com/songs/blsongs_winter.htm

Subject: RE: Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee
From: Gutcher
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 03:20 AM

Speaking to one of the travelling Robertsons a wheen years back in Kirriemuir he claimed this one for an ancestor from Ulster.

Subject: RE: Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee
From: GUEST,Anne Neilson
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 12:46 PM

My early memory of this song was a performance in a variety show at the Pavilion Theatre -- or possibly the King's Theatre -- in Glasgow, in the late 1960's.

The headline act was Lonnie Donegan, the King of Skiffle, who was superb: full of energy and absolutely on top of any hecklers from the audience. There was also Denny Willis, a very physical comedian and the son of the inimitable pantomime star Dave Willis; and another comedy act -- probably Irish, as I have a memory of a saffron kilt.

But The Road and the Miles to Dundee was delivered by the Scottish musical act of (George) Cormack and (Irene) Sharp. He was dressed in a velvet double-breasted jacket and a somewhat lurid kilt -- but she had a tight, floor-length, spangly dress which seemed quite at odds with his outfit. The delivery was saccharine-sweet, cloying and a total turn-off to our group which had been exposed to the rather more authentic approach of singers such as Jimmy MacBeath….

It was only many years later that I could listen to the song in the performance of singers from the Folk Revival and enjoy it for its lack of pretensions!

Subject: RE: Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee
From: JeffB
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 12:18 PM

This was discussed a few years ago, but don't know the thread title. However, I have a habit of making notes about songs I like, and this is what I put together from the contributions made at the time :-

Sweet Carnloch (or Carnlough) Bay is an Irish version, and there are several others, including one found in Canada. The Irish version was publicised by Colm O'Lochlainn in his Irish street ballads (1939), O'Lochlainn having had it from Cathal O'Byrne in 1913. Authorship has been attributed to Richard "The Poet" Mckay (pronounced McKee), who was born in Armagh in 1800 and died in Blairgowrie in 1897. There is an alternative attribution to a D. Young of Dysart in Fife, who is said to have composed the song in 1825 for David "Flutorum" Hatton, an eccentric innkeeper. The tune is Bonnie (or Adieu ) Dundee.

Subject: RE: Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 04:54 PM

Princie and Jean is a song about two Clydesdale horses that worked on a farm- -- think Archie Fisher sings / has recorded it?
(guest 1st June 2011)

Subject: RE: Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 03:29 PM

I learned this song at Hermitage Park School in Edinburgh - it must have been in 1951 or 1952 from my teacher, a Miss Smith. She taught us a lot of fine traditional Scots songs, many of which I am sure were not widely available in print or recording at the time. I think that she could have been involved in some of the first manifestations of the folk revival. The People's Ceilidh 1951 in Edinburgh is widely quoted as being one of the sparks that lit the folk revival.

Subject: RE: Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 12:06 AM

Here's the Corries recording:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm5_jma2GMQ

Subject: Lyr/Tune Add: THE ROAD TO DUNDEE
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 12:00 AM

Looks like we could stand to do some more research on this. Here's the Traditional Ballad Index entry on the song:

Road to Dundee, The

DESCRIPTION: "Cauld wind was howling o'er moor and o'er mountain" when the singer meets a girl asking her way to Dundee. He says he can't easily tell her, but will show her the way. As they approach the town, they exchange tokens and part. And no, they *don't* marry
AUTHOR: Mackay (per OLochlainn)
EARLIEST DATE: 1906 (GreigDuncan5)
KEYWORDS: travel courting
FOUND IN: Britain(Scotland(Aber)) Ireland Canada(Newf,Ont)
REFERENCES (7 citations):
Greig #51, p. 2, "The Road to Dundee" (1 text)
GreigDuncan5 971, "The Road to Dundee" (7 texts plus a fragmentary text from Greig on p. 600, 4 tunes)
Ord, pp. 152-153, "The Road to Dundee" (1 text, 1 tune)
OLochlainn 95, "Sweet Carnloch Bay" (1 text, 1 tune)
Bennett-Downey 7, pp. 83-85, "The Road to Dundee" (1 text)
Fowke-Ontario 52, "The Road to Dundee" (1 text, 1 tune)
DT, ROADDUND* RDUND2
Roud #2300
RECORDINGS:
Jerome Downey, "The Road to Dundee" (on NFJDowney01)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "The Lass o' Glenshee" (tune, per Greig)
File: Ord152

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DT Version:
ROAD TAE DUNDEE

D G D
Cold winter was turnin' o'er moor and o'er mountain
G D E7 A7
And wild was the surge on the dark rollin' sea
D G D
When I met aboot daybreak a bonnie young lassie
G D A7 D
That asked me the road and the miles tae Dundee

I said, "My young lassie, I canna weel tell ye
The road and the distance I ne'er can weel gauge
But if ye'll permit me tae gang a wee bittie
I'll show ye the road and the miles tae Dundee

At once she consented and gave me her air-m [arm
Nae a word did I speir wham that lassie might be [spare whom
She appeared like an angel in feature and for-m
As she walked by my side on the road tae Dundee

At length with the howe of Strathmartine behind us
[hollow of the Martin River valley]
The spires o' the toon in full full view we could see
She said, "Gentle sir, I can never forget ye
For showin' me so far on the road tae Dundee.

This ring and this purse please accept as a token
And surely there's somethin' that ye can gi'e me,
That in years to come I'll the laddie remember
Who showed me the road and the miles to Dundee?"

I took the gold pin frae the scarf on my bosom,
And said, "Tak' ye this, in remembrance o' me",
And bravely I kissed the sweet lips o' the lassie
Ere I pairted wi' her on the road tae Dundee

or:
(So I took the gowd pin frae the scarf on my bosom
And said "Keep ye this in remembrance o' me
So in times to come ye'll the laddie remember
That walked by your side on the road tae Dundee)

So here's tae the lassie, I ne'er will forget her
Tae ilk a young laddie that's list'nin' tae me
Never be sweir to convoy a young lassie
Though it's only to show her the road tae Dundee

@Scottish @love
From Gavin Anderson
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TUNE FILE: ROADDUND
CLICK TO PLAY
RPf, JB

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Subject: RE: Info on: Road and miles to Dundee
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 01:06 PM

This song is the same tune as the 'Road to Dundee' and I never knew that this song exists but what I would like to know is who wrote that song of Carnlough Bay. I have heard the road to dundee and played it so many times for my gigs when we were called Braveheart with my friend Martin and I also remember another song to that same tune called 'Princey and Gene' sung by Charley Allen but i do not know who wrote that.

Subject: RE: Info on: Road and miles to Dundee
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 06:41 AM

Some information here

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Info on: Road and miles to Dundee
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 02:49 AM

Don't know the truth of it, but I [ in roguish mood...] sometimes introduce the song as the tall story given to a Dundee "polis" by a suspicious character who was found in possession of a lady's purse and jewelry!

Subject: Info on: Road and miles to Dundee
From: GUEST,Geo
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 01:40 AM

What are the origins to Road and Miles To Dundee? How old, the tune, etc. Why was she out on the moor at daybreak? Why wouldn't he tell her? Hope I don't get lost in Scotland.